Delicate question for Catholic converts...

[shinyhappypeople]

... or any other Roman Catholic that would like to jump in :)

 

This is a sensitive topic and I truly mean no offense. But, it's something I've wondered about for awhile.

 

My understanding of the Roman Catholic church is that the hierarchy is very important. (Anyone in the know, please feel free to expand on the function of the priests/archbishops, etc. for me, as I'm not well-versed in RC'ism)

 

So... to my question. Because of the scandals of the last decade or so (higher ups covering up s-abuse by clergy) how are you able to feel comfortable being "under" an authority that would do this? When I meet recent converts that are local to me, I wonder that a lot as the parishes here are a part of the archdiocese of Los Angeles and Roger Mahoney didn't have a very good track record in how he handled s-abuse allegations. I just googled him and noted that he stayed in his position until he had to retire because of age. And I was like this: :blink: I mean, seriously, how is it possible that he wasn't fired? (Can an archbishop be fired??)

 

Help me understand! Maybe I'm misunderstanding the influence or authority of the archbishop?

 

I know s-abuse happens in all religions, but it just seems that RC'ism has a uniquely horrible track record in handling these incidents.

 

I'm so sorry if my question is offensive. I truly, honestly mean no disrespect to Catholics. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around this issue and I can't. Surely there's something I'm missing, right? I don't know a lot about RC beliefs, traditions or structure, so maybe someone can help enlighten me?

[Canadianmumof5]

As a practicing RC, firstly, I feel awful for the victims of these horrible crimes. It is not OK and the people who have committed these crimes should be held accountable. I feel awful for the church as a whole that the terrible actions of a few can deter so many other people from staying with their faith, or joining it. I feel awful for the priests who have made it their life's work to serve God and now have to be constantly on guard.

 

I realize that priests and other authorities in the church are held to a different & higher standard (as they should be), but I find I personally get really annoyed when people harp on & on & on & on about how awful it is in the church, and how they will never go to church now because of the scandals....but they have no trouble sending their children to school (teachers have been known to take advantage of their students), and have no trouble sending them to cub scouts/girl guides (same things have happened), etc, etc.

 

99% of priests are good. We need to remember that and not paint everyone in the church with the same brush.

 

Just my 2 cents. I'm sure people will disagree.

[VinNY]

Oh my...Roman Catholics have endured many a scandal and impiety by the heirarchy (Borgias anyone?). Are we just mindless sheep to keep following the Bishops? No, because the Holy Spirit brings everything to light and we all suffer and purge to strengthen and serve others again. In fact, a member of the Borgias became a saint.

 

Our faith stands on tradition, scripture and the Magesterium. The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of chaos. We need a visible head on earth (Pope)and overseers (Bishops). Scandal happens to all religions, we are humans. The sex scandal that happened in our church was because the overseers didn't do their job. Now we all must pay and repent. Yes Archbishops can be asked to resign, priests can be defrocked etc

 

Why stay or become Catholic? Because of the Sacraments especially the Eucharist, the liturgy, the Communion of Saints, A Teaching Church with a Catechism , the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the wonderful encyclicals and holy writings all visible for all to read. We have been there from Pentecost and have seen the good and the bad.

 

AS a revert, I fell back in love with Jesus and His Church.

[shinyhappypeople]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

[Julie in CA]

I know s-abuse happens in all religions, but it just seems that RC'ism has a uniquely horrible track record in handling these incidents.

 

Treading carefully here, but I have another, similar question...sort of. Not even sure how to word it.

 

Is part of the issue the vow of chastity? It seems like if you require a man to deny normal s3xual urges in order to become a priest, you will be much *much* more likely to get men who are willing to make that vow because they weren't all that attracted to a monogamous relationship to begin with. Not all, but...is it possible that that plays a part in the abuse problems within the RC church?

 

Please take this question as it's intended--I really mean no offense. I've just always wondered if that is a factor.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

The problem is that it isn't really a question. It's a way of saying that you wouldn't be able to stay in that sort of a situation. I'm not Roman Catholic but I would be offended at that sort of question which isn't really a question.

[shinyhappypeople]

I find I personally get really annoyed when people harp on & on & on & on about how awful it is in the church, and how they will never go to church now because of the scandals....but they have no trouble sending their children to school (teachers have been known to take advantage of their students), and have no trouble sending them to cub scouts/girl guides (same things have happened), etc, etc.

 

 

But I wouldn't send my kids to a school if I found out the principal or superintendent covered up abuse.

 

So, the sticking point for me is how to you reconcile your faith in light of what these supposedly "super-spritual" authorities have done. (Maybe that's where I've misunderstood RCism. Maybe the archbishop et al aren't considered more spiritual or having more authority than the average parishoner?) Do you just find a way to minimize their influence on your life and parish?

 

Honestly, for me it would be a deal-breaker.

 

99% of priests are good. We need to remember that and not paint everyone in the church with the same brush.

I agree most priests would never harm a child. I hope my question didn't make it sound like I think ALL (or even most) priests are pervs. I know that's not the case. My issue is with the sin in the hierarchy (specifically of covering up).

[shinyhappypeople]

The problem is that it isn't really a question. It's a way of saying that you wouldn't be able to stay in that sort of a situation. I'm not Roman Catholic but I would be offended at that sort of question which isn't really a question.

 

It really is a question. I want to understand how other people think. The only way to find out is to ask.

[shinyhappypeople]

Let's just drop this. I can't figure out a way to have this discussion without ticking people off. That is NOT my intention.

[Parrothead]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

It is more than a denomination. I think that might be the piece you are missing. To a Catholic it is The Church, not a church.

 

And the scandal did not stay hidden. The Holy Spirit brought it to light. Measures are now in place to provide more protection for God's children. To leave now would be like throwing the baby with the bathwater.

 

I can say that I'm not following things too closely at this point. But even if I'm missing something, I'm not going anywhere.

[Parrothead]

Treading carefully here, but I have another, similar question...sort of. Not even sure how to word it.

 

Is part of the issue the vow of chastity? It seems like if you require a man to deny normal s3xual urges in order to become a priest, you will be much *much* more likely to get men who are willing to make that vow because they weren't all that attracted to a monogamous relationship to begin with. Not all, but...is it possible that that plays a part in the abuse problems within the RC church?

 

Please take this question as it's intended--I really mean no offense. I've just always wondered if that is a factor.

I'll get back to you in just a bit. I have dinner in the oven and it needs to come out.

 

But quickly - Celibacy is the state of being unmarried. Many people the world over are celibate and not priests. They aren't abusing children.

[elizabeth]

Julie I think you are absolutely spot on. The demand of chastity will attract a few holy people and many who are not able to accept a healthy sexuality for a plethora of reasons. It is kind of the same deal with police/fire . Low pay,high risk brings extraordinary people into a field but there are not that many saints out there...thus we get the others who are far from saintly and enjoy the power and rush from danger. Many arsonists are firefighters or hoped to be. Many police officers are fidelity challenged and abusive as hell. A few are absolutely wonderful people. Most are not due to the horrific demands of the profession. As a lawyer I see it all the time. God bless them because they need it more than most.

[Nakia]

I am 100% sure that no matter what denomination you belong to, there are cover-ups for s*xual, and other, abuse. People are sinful. So, if you don't want to be in a denomination that has scandal, you better be prepared to stay out of any of them.

 

I do not believe you are trying to offend, but I do believe that you will offend. I can't see how this thread will be helpful.

[Daisy]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

I'm not Catholic, but...

 

Everyone covers it up. It isn't just the Catholics. The Catholics got caught. That's the difference.

 

The denomination of my childhood did plenty of cover-ups.

The public schools do cover-ups.

 

And bottom line, while I view my pastor as being a spiritual authority, I will wouldn't blindly trust my kids with him just because he claims the title of pastor. On the flip side I'm not going to assume every spiritual leader is a closet child molester either.

 

I imagine Catholics remain part of the church because they believe this is THE Church, warts and all. You don't leave what you sincerely believe to be truth just because mankind is corrupt.

[Parrothead]

But I wouldn't send my kids to a school if I found out the principal or superintendent covered up abuse.

 

So, the sticking point for me is how to you reconcile your faith in light of what these supposedly "super-spritual" authorities have done. (Maybe that's where I've misunderstood RCism. Maybe the archbishop et al aren't considered more spiritual or having more authority than the average parishoner?) Do you just find a way to minimize their influence on your life and parish?

 

Honestly, for me it would be a deal-breaker.

 

I agree most priests would never harm a child. I hope my question didn't make it sound like I think ALL (or even most) priests are pervs. I know that's not the case. My issue is with the sin in the hierarchy (specifically of covering up).

So because the priests did something which is admittedly hideous, and the bishops/archbishops covered things up, Catholics should drop Christianity? Our faith is Christianity, We aren't Jewish or Hiindu, we are Christians; that is our faith.

[VinNY]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

I'm not offended:) I think it is good to question..especially authority figures;)

You see to me being a Roman Catholic..a Christian..I live at the foot of the cross besides basking in the Glory of the Resurrection. I joke sometimes..as Catholics we put up with alot of mortification and embarrassment..because it is like being in a big family. Your brother makes an ass of himself, or another ends up in jail. Does it make the rest of the family anathema? No not if they are upholding the laws and behaving as good people should, which is the case for the majority of dioceses in the world.But if the whole family was acting up ..yeah something is wrong..but that isn't the case ...whether you like us or not. We are always on the reform but it is alot like leading a pack of elephants up a steep mountain..you gotta take it slow..too much to the left and you will fall off the cliff, too much to the right and you will get crushed by the stony wall:lol: We are all still pissed about how this was handled in the church but remember sexual abuse against children is endemic everywhere...I believe it was published that % of cases in the Roman Catholic church was lower than found in other organizations. Still % aside, it should have been nipped in the bud, but it wasn't. Why? I will keep asking,too. (I have my theories)

[Parrothead]

It really is a question. I want to understand how other people think. The only way to find out is to ask.

 

Let's just drop this. I can't figure out a way to have this discussion without ticking people off. That is NOT my intention.

Nothing wrong with asking. I think you've been very respectful and at the same time curious.

 

I hope you aren't getting nasty PMs from people about your questions.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think people stay because it is like throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak for the actions of a few bad apples. The Church does have a great many good people and aspects and is much bigger than the actions of a few for those who believe.

 

This is coming from an ex-Roman Catholic who left long before the scandals for a multitude of reasons. I am still able to see the beauty in the Church however:) I do find the scandals appalling but again I think this happens everywhere:(.

[Teachin'Mine]

Treading carefully here, but I have another, similar question...sort of. Not even sure how to word it.

 

Is part of the issue the vow of chastity? It seems like if you require a man to deny normal s3xual urges in order to become a priest, you will be much *much* more likely to get men who are willing to make that vow because they weren't all that attracted to a monogamous relationship to begin with. Not all, but...is it possible that that plays a part in the abuse problems within the RC church?

 

Please take this question as it's intended--I really mean no offense. I've just always wondered if that is a factor.

 

Yes, I think there is some validity to that. The RC Church has begun to screen candidates for the seminary very carefully for that very reason. The majority of priests made a very selfless decision to give their all to God giving up marriage and a family.

 

As far as how can super-spiritual people fall, look at Judas. How long was he with Jesus learning from him directly? We're all only human. The priests need our prayers. The number of priests, here in the US anyway, is getting smaller, but many of them are awesome priests who will lead us well.

[Soror]

As to the celibacy, no I don't think it has any bearing whatsoever. If it was about sexual desires it would be a scandal of priests having affairs w/ women. Child sexual abuse isn't about sexual desire.

 

As to the issue of authority etc. We don't believe that God made anyone in the church perfect despite some misunderstandings about papal infallibility. As others stated the RC like all other churches is filled w/ sinners. I believe that the RC is The Church. To me leaving the church would be leaving Christianity.

[Avila]

Treading carefully here, but I have another, similar question...sort of. Not even sure how to word it.

 

Is part of the issue the vow of chastity? It seems like if you require a man to deny normal s3xual urges in order to become a priest, you will be much *much* more likely to get men who are willing to make that vow because they weren't all that attracted to a monogamous relationship to begin with. Not all, but...is it possible that that plays a part in the abuse problems within the RC church?

 

Please take this question as it's intended--I really mean no offense. I've just always wondered if that is a factor.

 

I don't think so. That would be a little like saying lack of a wife or willing girlfriend is what causes men to become r@pists. It isn't about the sex. It is about control and violence.

 

Being celibate doesn't make an offender. Being homosexual doesn't make an offender. Offenders are sick people who look for people to victimize. They sought out the priesthood for the SAME reason other offenders became elementary school teachers, little league coaches, cub scout leaders, youth leaders, etc. They wanted easy access to children.

 

It is heartbreaking that anyone would victimize a child. It is especially sad when it comes from people who should be in a position of trust.

[WIS0320]

This quote by the wonderful Frank Sheed sums up my thoughts on this completely:

 

We are not baptized into the hierarchy; do not receive the cardinals sacramentally; will not spend eternity in the beatific vision of the pope. Christ is the point. I, myself, admire the present pope, but even if I criticized him as harshly as some do, even if his successor proved to be as bad as some of those who have gone before, even if I find the Church, as I have to live with it, a pain in the neck, I should still say that nothing that a pope (or a priest) could do or say would make me wish to leave the Church, although I might well wish that they would leave.

 

-Frank Sheed

 

I don't expect perfection from our priests, Bishops, etc. Even the Pope is only infallible in very specific moral instances that don't come along all that often. I am a convert (swam the Tiber in 2009) and I think not being raised in the Church helps me keep the hierarchy in a different perspective than those who are cradle Catholics - I could be wrong about that though.

[Ellie]

I don't have any problems because there haven't been any "cover-ups." There have only been poorly reported "news" stories about the s*xual abuses. Of course it's awful that those happened, but they weren't covered up in any way.

 

Not only that, but people of all kinds do bad things. Some of those people were Catholic. It doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is in error doctrinally.

[Xuzi]

I'm not Catholic, but my church has also had similar scandals (to a smaller scale, but just as tragic).

 

For me, it comes down to this: My faith is in Jesus Christ and His Gospel. HE is perfect. HIS GOSPEL is perfect. His followers, even those in positions of authority, are still sinful human beings. But my faith isn't in them. It is in Jesus Christ alone.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm Anglican and in Canada it's been largely the Anglican church that's was responsible for many of the horrors native children had to go through in residential schools whether those horrors were cultural, mental, physical or sexual in nature.

 

I don't think celibacy has much to do with it.

 

I think it's to do with people in positions of power over the helpless with a) an overgrown sense of their own righteousness and b) no true oversight. That's true whether it's celibate Catholic preists or married Anglican ones or teachers or sports coaches.

[ElizaG]

As to the celibacy, no I don't think it has any bearing whatsoever. If it was about sexual desires it would be a scandal of priests having affairs w/ women. Child sexual abuse isn't about sexual desire.

From the figures I've seen, it's unfortunately just as common among clergy who are allowed to marry: Protestant ministers, Orthodox priests, rabbis, imams, etc. The difference is that these groups don't tend to have the same sort of bureaucratic structure, so these things are often dealt with quietly (or not dealt with, even more quietly) at the level of the local congregation.

 

Monty Python had a sketch in the early 70's where one of the characters talked about "grafting a pederast onto an Anglican bishop." So this was something that was known and talked about even back then.

[dirty ethel rackham]

The vow of chastity is really a non-issue. Sexual abusers choose careers/occupations/hobbies that will put them in contact and positions of trust over their intended victims. One study I read showed that the percentage of priests who are abusers is about the same as the percentage of teachers. Teachers don't take a vow of celibacy. Teachers also get moved around and are rarely fired for sexual misconduct.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I am a life-long Catholic and this issue is very close to my heart. I grew up in a parish that had 2 abusing priests that I know of and the bishop of our diocese knowingly shuffled these priests around and put more children in harms way.

 

LIke others have said, I don't stay or leave because of the priests. I stay because, to me, it is THE church. I stay for the Eucharist. I stay for all the things that make up the church, not because of the hierarchy.

 

I do have anger over the actions of the bishops. But that anger is not over cover-ups, that anger is over the fact that they continued to put children in harms way even when they knew there was a problem, even when they knew the supposed "cures" weren't working.

 

About the "cover ups" ... think about it. None of the families wanted this stuff to become public. Think about societal attitudes toward the children ... "they made it up." Most of society had a "blame the victim" attitude when it came to sexual abuse. Although we have made great strides in this area, it is still a huge problem. The stigma attached to a child who was the victim of sexual abuse was so strong that families would have to move away in order for their children to have a fresh start. This was an issue that was swept under the rug in all parts of society - fathers abusing daughters, teachers, coaches, and scout leaders abusing children ... it simply wasn't talked about. Keeping things quiet was done partly out of a desire to protect the reputations of children. Unfortunately, the other motive was to protect the reputation of the Church, which was morally reprehensible and did cause a huge backlash. Only after this has been brought into the light can there be healing.

[momsquared]

Oh my...Roman Catholics have endured many a scandal and impiety by the heirarchy (Borgias anyone?). Are we just mindless sheep to keep following the Bishops? No, because the Holy Spirit brings everything to light and we all suffer and purge to strengthen and serve others again. In fact, a member of the Borgias became a saint.

 

Our faith stands on tradition, scripture and the Magesterium. The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of chaos. We need a visible head on earth (Pope)and overseers (Bishops). Scandal happens to all religions, we are humans. The sex scandal that happened in our church was because the overseers didn't do their job. Now we all must pay and repent. Yes Archbishops can be asked to resign, priests can be defrocked etc

 

Why stay or become Catholic? Because of the Sacraments especially the Eucharist, the liturgy, the Communion of Saints, A Teaching Church with a Catechism , the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the wonderful encyclicals and holy writings all visible for all to read. We have been there from Pentecost and have seen the good and the bad.

 

AS a revert, I fell back in love with Jesus and His Church.

 

I agree with this. It's ultimately about the faith and not the people who are deliverers of the faith - for me at least.

 

I also believe we are all human, imperfect, and can make a variety of mistakes - from stupid to horrible. I am not here on earth to judge people.

[HRAAB]

But I wouldn't send my kids to a school if I found out the principal or superintendent covered up abuse.

 

So, the sticking point for me is how to you reconcile your faith in light of what these supposedly "super-spritual" authorities have done. (Maybe that's where I've misunderstood RCism. Maybe the archbishop et al aren't considered more spiritual or having more authority than the average parishoner?) Do you just find a way to minimize their influence on your life and parish?

 

Honestly, for me it would be a deal-breaker.

 

I agree most priests would never harm a child. I hope my question didn't make it sound like I think ALL (or even most) priests are pervs. I know that's not the case. My issue is with the sin in the hierarchy (specifically of covering up).

 

My faith isn't in the priest, bishop or even the pope. My faith is in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is made up of people, and as long as people are fallen, we will have sin. Why in the world would I leave a church because people sinned? Every Sunday at Mass I am surrounded by sinners. Where would I go? I don't want to be Protestant (no offense intended at all - no more than you probably want to be Catholic), and there aren't other 'catholic' churches for me to join. As long as the church is full of people, we will have sin.

 

I am in no way minimizing the sex abuse. It is horrendous, and the cover-ups by those we should be able to trust is worse than appalling. Hopefully, the church has learned a very difficult, very expensive lesson. I know in my Diocese this is taken very, very seriously. Celibacy is a non-issue. I understand that the biggest percentage of sexual predators are married, white males. (correct me if I'm wrong). Voluntary celibacy does not turn someone into a predator. Actually, I would not be opposed to changing the discipline that requires celibacy for the priesthood in the Latin Church though I don't know how that would work out financially. But that's another whole topic.

[Brigitte]

I think you have to take the time period that these cover-ups took place in. Abuse of any kind was not spoken of publicly. It was often believed that the victim would be shamed if the actions of the abuser was brought to light. That is just how it was back then. Judging the actions of the bishops with our 21st century sensibilities doesn't work.

 

Also, some bishops believed that keeping the abusing priest in the system, where they could be watched was better than eventually having them free in the public to what they will. Again, this type of abuse was not prosecuted by the law as aggressively as it is now. A couple of years in jail, maybe, and the abuser would be free. Was this thinking by the bishops right, probably not. But again, we are judging with today's standards.

 

Finally, The Church for me is not the very fallible people who represent The Church. For me, it is the Eucharist, Christ, and the teachings that have been passed on to us.

[simka2]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

Not RC, but I wanted to answer since this is an issue close to me. I am the victim of SA that was "covered up" by my denomination.

 

Every denomination covers it to some degree. At the least their hands become tied due to lack of evidence or victims willing to come forward.

 

If you cannot prove something in a court of law, you cannot (in most cases) be fired for it. So, there are ministers in every denomination that have commited some form of s*xual abuse, that the denom has covered or turned a blind eye to.

 

What it taught me was that it is everywhere, no denomination can point a finger at the RC, without having fingers pointed right back at them.

Edited October 16, 2011 by simka2

[Julie in CA]

One study I read showed that the percentage of priests who are abusers is about the same as the percentage of teachers. Teachers don't take a vow of celibacy. Teachers also get moved around and are rarely fired for sexual misconduct.

Interesting. Thank you, I always wondered, but never saw any statistics.

[elizabeth]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/15/us/kansas-city-bishop-indicted-in-reporting-of-abuse-by-priest.html More children were hurt because of the bishop hiding evidence. Go to this website if you want to read more statistics about the real effort made to hide pederasts under the cloak of penitential privilege. http://www.snapnetwork.org/

And for those who allege bias and liberals wanting to get rid of celibacy here is the John Jay College of Criminal Justice Study also an interesting document. http://nccbuscc.org/mr/causes-and-context-of-sexual-abuse-minors-by-catholic-priests-in-the-united-states-1950-2010.pdf Many issues and no quick and easy answers but I think that it is illusory to maintain the position that there was no systemic effort to move and hide the abusers who went on to hurt more of the youth under their care. I hope these three links that show different perspectives on the issue and draw different conclusions in some areas are of use to those seeking understanding.

[Brigitte]

I am a life-long Catholic and this issue is very close to my heart. I grew up in a parish that had 2 abusing priests that I know of and the bishop of our diocese knowingly shuffled these priests around and put more children in harms way.

 

LIke others have said, I don't stay or leave because of the priests. I stay because, to me, it is THE church. I stay for the Eucharist. I stay for all the things that make up the church, not because of the hierarchy.

 

I do have anger over the actions of the bishops. But that anger is not over cover-ups, that anger is over the fact that they continued to put children in harms way even when they knew there was a problem, even when they knew the supposed "cures" weren't working.

 

About the "cover ups" ... think about it. None of the families wanted this stuff to become public. Think about societal attitudes toward the children ... "they made it up." Most of society had a "blame the victim" attitude when it came to sexual abuse. Although we have made great strides in this area, it is still a huge problem. The stigma attached to a child who was the victim of sexual abuse was so strong that families would have to move away in order for their children to have a fresh start. This was an issue that was swept under the rug in all parts of society - fathers abusing daughters, teachers, coaches, and scout leaders abusing children ... it simply wasn't talked about. Keeping things quiet was done partly out of a desire to protect the reputations of children. Unfortunately, the other motive was to protect the reputation of the Church, which was morally reprehensible and did cause a huge backlash. Only after this has been brought into the light can there be healing.

 

:iagree: Very well put, Ellen.

[Bluegoat]

I'm Anglican and in Canada it's been largely the Anglican church that's was responsible for many of the horrors native children had to go through in residential schools whether those horrors were cultural, mental, physical or sexual in nature.

 

I don't think celibacy has much to do with it.

 

I think it's to do with people in positions of power over the helpless with a) an overgrown sense of their own righteousness and b) no true oversight. That's true whether it's celibate Catholic preists or married Anglican ones or teachers or sports coaches.

 

Oh wow, I'm an Anglican in Nova Scotia too!

 

I also don't think celibacy is a main issue in a sexual sense, though I have wondered in a larger way if lonliness is. Especially in relation to substance abuse issues which seem to be more common than one might expect in that group. Loneliness, stress, overwork. And substance abuse can be a big factor in sexual abuse.

 

And it is always the case that predators are attracted to jobs that give them power.

 

I didn't think the whole scandal was what was being made of it until recently when so many more cover-up and just pathetic decision making came up that happened even into the 1990s. And then the still pretty inadequate responses in Ireland and with mandatory reporting.

 

But if I were Catholic, I'd be pretty mad, but it wouldn't necessarily make me leave.

[Canadianmumof5]

Not RC, but I wanted to answer since this is an issue close to me. I am the victim of SA that was "covered up" by my denomination.

 

Every denomination covers it to some degree. At the least their hands become tied due to lack of evidence or victims willing to come forward.

 

If you cannot prove something in a court of law, you cannot (in most cases) be fired for it. So, there are ministers in every denomination that have commited some form of s*xual abuse, that the denom has covered or turned a blind eye to.

 

What it taught me was that it is everywhere, no denomination can point a finger at the RC, without having fingers pointed right back at them.

 

:grouphug:

[Trish]

It isn't offensive, it makes me sick. And I consider myself a faithful Catholic. (so maybe your question is kinda directed at people like me, how can we stand it?) Well, I practice my faith due to Jesus and the Holy Trinity. The externals of the faith (church attendance, devotions, prayers, Bible, faith activities, etc.) are all a means to bring me closer to my God. I see no reason to leave any of that just because the people running the joint seem to have less faith than your average Catholic.

 

It's puzzling, to be sure, but it isn't going to drive me away from my purpose of being on the planet. And it's VERY irritating, from a human standpoint. Cardinal Law got a cushy job in Rome instead of a lifetime of penance on a deserted island. Mahoney is another one. I could go on and on. WHY are they still around? Well, I have to separate the two -- what's going on in the church, and what's going on in my own personal spiritual life.

 

Personal opinion: this is an era that has been foretold at LaSallette and at Fatima. It presages the Fall of the Church, which will mirror what happened to Christ Himself. Then the church will be reborn and spotless, but not without going through a tremendous tribulation. Eh, I think we're very close to that moment, actually.

 

But on a day to day basis I keep doing my own personal spiritual thing.

[Canadianmumof5]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

I'm not offended by the questions. I'm just bothered that the Catholic Church is always picked on by the media for this & then the rest of society tends to believe it happens more frequently in my church vs. any others. It happens in all kinds of religions & denominations, in all kinds of positions of authority so stop making it seem like it only happens in this church. It happens everywhere. It is wrong. Anywhere. Period.

[justamouse]

Oh my...Roman Catholics have endured many a scandal and impiety by the heirarchy (Borgias anyone?). Are we just mindless sheep to keep following the Bishops? No, because the Holy Spirit brings everything to light and we all suffer and purge to strengthen and serve others again. In fact, a member of the Borgias became a saint.

 

Our faith stands on tradition, scripture and the Magesterium. The Holy Spirit is not a spirit of chaos. We need a visible head on earth (Pope)and overseers (Bishops). Scandal happens to all religions, we are humans. The sex scandal that happened in our church was because the overseers didn't do their job. Now we all must pay and repent. Yes Archbishops can be asked to resign, priests can be defrocked etc

 

Why stay or become Catholic? Because of the Sacraments especially the Eucharist, the liturgy, the Communion of Saints, A Teaching Church with a Catechism , the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the wonderful encyclicals and holy writings all visible for all to read. We have been there from Pentecost and have seen the good and the bad.

 

AS a revert, I fell back in love with Jesus and His Church.

 

:iagree:

 

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

I have a friend that I can't even tell you what she went through, or under what denomination it was. I can tell you that she had to run for her life. That's not hyperbole.

 

I was struggling with the abuse scandal when I was visiting an Eastern Orthodox church. And I spoke to the EO priest about it. And, believe it or not, HE was the one that brought me to the point of accepting the RCC, because that was one of my last sticking points. He said, "It's not the priests, it's a sickness that's everywhere." He was willing to make many points for me to question the RCC, THAT was not one of them.

[shinyhappypeople]

I'm not offended:) I think it is good to question..especially authority figures;)

You see to me being a Roman Catholic..a Christian..I live at the foot of the cross besides basking in the Glory of the Resurrection. I joke sometimes..as Catholics we put up with alot of mortification and embarrassment..because it is like being in a big family. Your brother makes an ass of himself, or another ends up in jail. Does it make the rest of the family anathema? No not if they are upholding the laws and behaving as good people should, which is the case for the majority of dioceses in the world.But if the whole family was acting up ..yeah something is wrong..but that isn't the case ...whether you like us or not. We are always on the reform but it is alot like leading a pack of elephants up a steep mountain..you gotta take it slow..too much to the left and you will fall off the cliff, too much to the right and you will get crushed by the stony wall:lol: We are all still pissed about how this was handled in the church but remember sexual abuse against children is endemic everywhere...I believe it was published that % of cases in the Roman Catholic church was lower than found in other organizations. Still % aside, it should have been nipped in the bud, but it wasn't. Why? I will keep asking,too. (I have my theories)

 

Your answer made a lot of sense. Thank you.

[shinyhappypeople]

It is more than a denomination. I think that might be the piece you are missing. To a Catholic it is The Church, not a church.

 

That really helps. Thanks.

 

For me, it's different. If XYZ denomination had a huge sexual abuse scandal, cover-ups, blah, blah, blah... I could just leave the denomination and go to the non-denom down the road or check out the Presbyterian church or... or... or... as a Protestant I've got options and none of them feel like "leaving my faith." It's just leaving a congregation or an organization.

 

But, what I think I'm hearing is that for a Catholic the Roman Catholic Church is IT. And the organized, visible, presence of the RC Church is incredibly significant to the living out of the faith. So, going elsewhere isn't a reasonable option.

 

How'd I do in the above paragraph? Is that reasonably accurate? When I view it from that perspective, staying (or even converting to RCism in light of everything) means a lot more sense.

 

Thanks for helping me think this through. It's one of those things that I've wondered about for years but never knew who to ask.

[Mama2Many4]

I'm a lifelong Catholic myself, and I couldn't have said anything better than these ladies have. I remain a Catholic because that is the faith that Jesus started. THE church and I stay for that. I don't go to Mass each week to look good in the priests eyes, I go to visit with God and gain his favor. I don't blindly follow after the hierarchy simply because of the standing in the church, I follow our Lord and Savior! :)

[KJB]

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

 

You ask your question because of the denomination hopping that is common amongst Protestants. Catholics believe that the Catholic religion is THE church Jesus created. Men can't take that away no matter how much they sin. Other Christian religions are splinters off of the tree of Christianity and by extension the one true church through the lens of a Catholic.

 

Men make mistakes. Christ is perfect. Why would we give up the one true church commissioned by Jesus himself because people sinned, again?

 

Catholic mass is the same almost anywhere in the world. I live overseas and I can go to church anywhere and participate in the celebration fully regardless of the language. Catholicism is old and beautiful. Christ himself asked Peter to establish the Catholic church.

 

Men may have abused their power in the church, but Catholicism isn't about men....

[knit247]

It really is a question. I want to understand how other people think. The only way to find out is to ask.

 

I am only up to this point in the thread and see that there are several more pages to read. I hope this doesn't get out of hand, because I think this is a valid question. It's one that I am quite sure I will be asked soon enough, as I am currently in RCIA and am all but certain that I plan to join the Church at the Easter Vigil.

 

Hoping this will be able to continue in a civilized manner :lurk5:

[knit247]

...I joke sometimes..as Catholics we put up with alot of mortification and embarrassment..because it is like being in a big family. Your brother makes an ass of himself, or another ends up in jail. Does it make the rest of the family anathema? No not if they are upholding the laws and behaving as good people should, which is the case for the majority of dioceses in the world.But if the whole family was acting up ..yeah something is wrong..but that isn't the case ...whether you like us or not.

 

Makes such sense...ty for this.

 

...As to the issue of authority etc. We don't believe that God made anyone in the church perfect despite some misunderstandings about papal infallibility.

 

We had the most informative class on the Magisterium two weeks ago in RCIA. It cleared up so many of the misconceptions that I had held for my entire life. I don't have any good internet sources on this, but would love it if someone could post some info/links for those who might be interested in reading about it. I never understood the whole "infallibility thing" until that class! ;)

[celticmom]

I don't think so. That would be a little like saying lack of a wife or willing girlfriend is what causes men to become r@pists. It isn't about the sex. It is about control and violence.

 

Being celibate doesn't make an offender. Being homosexual doesn't make an offender. Offenders are sick people who look for people to victimize. They sought out the priesthood for the SAME reason other offenders became elementary school teachers, little league coaches, cub scout leaders, youth leaders, etc. They wanted easy access to children.

 

It is heartbreaking that anyone would victimize a child. It is especially sad when it comes from people who should be in a position of trust.

:iagree:I have heard of abuses in churches that do not require celibacy as well.

[I.Dup.]

Sexual abuse happens everywhere. I don't see how acting as if Catholic priests are perverts is any different than hearing a few stories in the media of homeschoolers who abused their children and asking how anyone could ever homeschool when it only leads to abuse. That's just silly. The percentage of priests who sexually abuse children vs. fathers or brothers or teachers or any occupation that does so is significantly lower, but of course the media is all over it when it happens.

 

Cover-ups happen everywhere. We were a part of a Calvary Chapel before we converted that was in a MAJOR cover up about a teen in the church who was sexually abusing children in the church, we found out and immediately went to the pastor who refused to take any steps to stop it. We met with her family who was horrified that we were making her out to be some sort of "predator". They absolutely REFUSED to come forward about what had happened.

[Murphy101]

I personally get really annoyed when people harp on & on & on & on about how awful it is in the church, and how they will never go to church now because of the scandals....but they have no trouble sending their children to school (teachers have been known to take advantage of their students), and have no trouble sending them to cub scouts/girl guides (same things have happened), etc, etc.

 

99% of priests are good. We need to remember that and not paint everyone in the church with the same brush.

 

Just my 2 cents. I'm sure people will disagree.

 

:iagree:

 

I think I've offended and I really didn't mean to :( I don't understand RCism (obviously).

 

I do acknowledge that sexual abuse happens everywhere. However, I wouldn't stay in a denomination that covered it up. So, that's what I can't wrap my brain around. I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle.

 

 

Firstly, given the huge amount of paperwork done and apparently the well known factor of it and that it was kept for decades - I think if we are going to claim the RCC had a cover up, we should at least gree it was the worst cover up job ever.

 

That said, the hierarchy factor is probably the main reason the RCC has become easy pickings for this issue. Other Christian faiths just do not seem to have it or as well organized. I firmly believe they absolutely do cover it up and it is easier for them to do so because they lack a hierarchy. I believe the same of schools and other institutions.

 

Is part of the issue the vow of chastity? It seems like if you require a man to deny normal s3xual urges in order to become a priest, you will be much *much* more likely to get men who are willing to make that vow because they weren't all that attracted to a monogamous relationship to begin with. Not all, but...is it possible that that plays a part in the abuse problems within the RC church?

 

Please take this question as it's intended--I really mean no offense. I've just always wondered if that is a factor.

 

No. Absolutely not. Even the secular investigations have said there is not a correlations.

 

For several reasons:

 

Predators seek access and skilled at blending in. Simple as that.

 

Having homosexual inclinations does not mean they are child predators.

 

Not being inclined towards monogamy does not mean they are child predators. (One can be a total slut and still never harbor even the tiniest desire for a kid or even someone just younger.)

 

One can want a monogamous relationship and still have unhealthy desires. (men who abuse their wives, or predators who groom the very young and continue with them until they are older teens)

 

None of this has anything to do with a priestly vow of celibacy. No one, ever, without exception, has ever sexually abused a minor, of either gender, just because being chaste was too difficult for them. Ever.

 

Those children were abused for one reason:

 

A predator found a way to get close and abused that opportunity. If the predator had not been able to be a priest, he would have become a school teacher, or a scout leader, or married a woman with kids, or or or or.

 

I'm not offended by the question if it is honest.

 

Asked honestly, it shows a lack of knowledge about the church, the scandals, and predators. This can be discussed.

 

If the question is actually a cloaked judgement, well... Yeah.. That's not going to go far towards a discussion.

[In2why]

I don't have any problems because there haven't been any "cover-ups." There have only been poorly reported "news" stories about the s*xual abuses. Of course it's awful that those happened, but they weren't covered up in any way.

 

Not only that, but people of all kinds do bad things. Some of those people were Catholic. It doesn't mean that the Catholic Church is in error doctrinally.

 

 

I was born Roman Catholic and no longer practice, but I am confused as to why you believe there weren't any cover ups. It is well understood that Priests who abused children were allowed to repent in quiet and then reassigned to another parish. Higher authorities did know that Priests were sexually abusing children and they decided to try to handle the problem instead of taking the issue to authorities. They decided to pay damages to families, or discredit the families instead of supporting them. How is that not a cover-up?

 

The Church did not abuse children, but some of their Priests did. I love the Church even though I am no longer a member because The Church is about the people and traditions and not the hierarchy. The Church survives sometimes in spite of it's leaders and not because of them.