Late readers and fluency

[Michele in NC]

I have two boys who have had trouble learning to read (10yo & 12yo). My 10yo has gone through a phonics program, but he is not even close to being fluent when he reads. He can eventually get most of the words correct when he reads, but it takes him sooooo long. He also has stuttering problems (he goes to an SLP once a week) so it makes it that much harder to get through his reading. Any suggestions?

 

My 12yo is going through AAS as his spelling/phonics review program. It's going pretty well. However, phonics has never been easy for him, and even though he knows most of the phonograms, when it comes to decoding words, it's like he doesn't have a clue. If he hasn't memorized the word, he still guesses sometimes based on the context of the sentence. He hates to read so he rarely picks up a book on his own. He's also extremely sensitive and blows up when he can't read something. Then, you might as well call it a day because once he gets upset, he simply can NOT focus on anything else. It's futile.

 

If any of you have any suggestions about either of these situations, I'd appreciate it. We've been focusing on reading for so many years, I'm simply sick of it. I know they are.

 

Thanks,

Michele

[Michele in NC]

I'd appreciate it. I've already registered on this board, but everytime I post it says "Just Visiting". :glare:

[Guest LisainWA]

I have taught all 3 of my kids to read; they are all teenagers now. I would recommend checking out www.epsbooks.com. They have Explode the Code, Megawords & a new book called "Literacy Leaders" which directs working with the individual letter sounds which is very important. I bought this book and am using it with my 13 & 15.5 yr olds who do still have trouble hearing individual sounds in the middle & end of words as well as telling the difference between short "i" & "e" sounds. I hope this will help you.

 

Blessings,

LisaW

[Laurie4b]

I think that's what it says until you have 10 posts.

[Doran]

I have two boys who have had trouble learning to read (10yo & 12yo). My 10yo has gone through a phonics program, but he is not even close to being fluent when he reads. He can eventually get most of the words correct when he reads, but it takes him sooooo long. He also has stuttering problems (he goes to an SLP once a week) so it makes it that much harder to get through his reading. Any suggestions?

 

My 12yo is going through AAS as his spelling/phonics review program. It's going pretty well. However, phonics has never been easy for him, and even though he knows most of the phonograms, when it comes to decoding words, it's like he doesn't have a clue. If he hasn't memorized the word, he still guesses sometimes based on the context of the sentence. He hates to read so he rarely picks up a book on his own. He's also extremely sensitive and blows up when he can't read something. Then, you might as well call it a day because once he gets upset, he simply can NOT focus on anything else. It's futile.

 

If any of you have any suggestions about either of these situations, I'd appreciate it. We've been focusing on reading for so many years, I'm simply sick of it. I know they are.

 

Thanks,

Michele

 

 

I'll start by saying that I am far from the most knowledgeable person to address your concerns here. But, I speak from the experience of having an 11.5 year old dd who has struggled with reading. Together with a specialized tutor, my dd and I have worked very hard to help her learn to cope with and move beyond her processing issues in order for her to be able to read fluently and without shame. We learned recently, from a second set of testing done a year after initial testing and the engagement of dd's tutor, that our girl is finally reading at grade level. But, it did not happen by continuing to try to bang the same information into her brain through phonics instruction. She just couldn't learn to read that way.

 

If you have never had your sons tested for potential problems with dyslexia (and some will also say vision/tracking issues), I would recommend that you do that if you are able. It sounds to me like they have some deeper processing differences that may require a particular kind of intervention in order to help them read fluently and without the level of frustration they are experiencing now.

 

Aside: The reason you are "Just Visiting" is because on this forum, all members are given funny little designations to coincide with their numbers of posts. Because we are referred to as "The Hive", most of these designations are bee or hive related. As you move up in numbers of posts, you'll change to Hive Mind Larvae, Hive Mind Worker Bee and so forth. It's all meant to be fun, not degrading in any way. HTH.

[Laurie4b]

Michele, have you ever had either boy tested? Your descriptions sound as if they are dyslexic.

 

I would recommend reading Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz either way. It contains a summary of the latest research on learning to read as well as overcoming dyslexia.

 

To develop reading fluency, the method that is backed up by research is repeated oral readings. Using a short passage that is at a fairly easy level for your child, you 1) read it aloud to your child, modeling good expression, 2) have your child read it aloud to you. It's best if you make a photocopy of the passage and as he's reading, mark mistakes, omissions, insertions, etc. Do not correct him until he's done and then you can work on any missed words, etc. 3) Your child reads it again. You time him for 1 min. Note where he stops. Count the correct words. 4) One more time : your child again reads aloud, you time him for 1 min. Record the number of words correct. It's nice if you graph the higher of the two numbers each day so that the student can see progress.

 

Given their ages and the fact that both you and the boys are sick of reading, would you consider a reading tutor? It's likely that tutoring would get them both on grade level within 3 months to a year. A tutor usually takes that emotional edge off of things, and you could watch the methods used and use them on days when your sons aren't getting tutoring.

[Ottakee]

I have 2 kids that struggled with learning to read.

 

I used the I See Sam books http://www.iseesam.com

 

I did find that it was important to use a cursor (a notched 3x5 card) that you move along sound by sound as they read. This helps them with eye tracking and focusing on each sound in the word.

 

My 12dd has now about finished the 6th set of books but I have taken her back to set 4. Even though she could READ (meaning decode) set 6, she was not fluent. Now back in set 4 she is reading with fluency, expression, etc.

 

I think it is important to have them reread stuff that is easier to build up fluency.

 

What program(s) have you tried? Have you had their vision tested?

[Ottakee]

I have 2 kids that struggled with learning to read.

 

I used the I See Sam books http://www.iseesam.com

 

I did find that it was important to use a cursor (a notched 3x5 card) that you move along sound by sound as they read. This helps them with eye tracking and focusing on each sound in the word.

 

My 12dd has now about finished the 6th set of books but I have taken her back to set 4. Even though she could READ (meaning decode) set 6, she was not fluent. Now back in set 4 she is reading with fluency, expression, etc.

 

I think it is important to have them reread stuff that is easier to build up fluency.

 

What program(s) have you tried? Have you had their vision tested?

[Michele in NC]

I'll start by saying that I am far from the most knowledgeable person to address your concerns here. But, I speak from the experience of having an 11.5 year old dd who has struggled with reading. Together with a specialized tutor, my dd and I have worked very hard to help her learn to cope with and move beyond her processing issues in order for her to be able to read fluently and without shame. We learned recently, from a second set of testing done a year after initial testing and the engagement of dd's tutor, that our girl is finally reading at grade level. But, it did not happen by continuing to try to bang the same information into her brain through phonics instruction. She just couldn't learn to read that way.

 

If you have never had your sons tested for potential problems with dyslexia (and some will also say vision/tracking issues), I would recommend that you do that if you are able. It sounds to me like they have some deeper processing differences that may require a particular kind of intervention in order to help them read fluently and without the level of frustration they are experiencing now.

 

Aside: The reason you are "Just Visiting" is because on this forum, all members are given funny little designations to coincide with their numbers of posts. Because we are referred to as "The Hive", most of these designations are bee or hive related. As you move up in numbers of posts, you'll change to Hive Mind Larvae, Hive Mind Worker Bee and so forth. It's all meant to be fun, not degrading in any way. HTH.

 

Thank you, Doran. I've never had the boys tested for dyslexia or any other learning disability. I guess I just figured because they were homeschooled, they would eventually *get it*?? I guess that's not always the case, huh? Anyway, I have found someone only 30 minutes away that will test for dyslexia, and I think that will be my next step.

 

Thanks for explaining the *just visiting* thing, too. I didn't think it was degrading, I just wanted to make sure I had truly registered. :001_smile:

 

Michele

[Michele in NC]

Michele, have you ever had either boy tested? Your descriptions sound as if they are dyslexic.

 

I would recommend reading Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz either way. It contains a summary of the latest research on learning to read as well as overcoming dyslexia.

 

To develop reading fluency, the method that is backed up by research is repeated oral readings. Using a short passage that is at a fairly easy level for your child, you 1) read it aloud to your child, modeling good expression, 2) have your child read it aloud to you. It's best if you make a photocopy of the passage and as he's reading, mark mistakes, omissions, insertions, etc. Do not correct him until he's done and then you can work on any missed words, etc. 3) Your child reads it again. You time him for 1 min. Note where he stops. Count the correct words. 4) One more time : your child again reads aloud, you time him for 1 min. Record the number of words correct. It's nice if you graph the higher of the two numbers each day so that the student can see progress.

 

Given their ages and the fact that both you and the boys are sick of reading, would you consider a reading tutor? It's likely that tutoring would get them both on grade level within 3 months to a year. A tutor usually takes that emotional edge off of things, and you could watch the methods used and use them on days when your sons aren't getting tutoring.

 

Laurie,

 

Like I told Doran, I've never had the boys tested. However, I've found a tested in my area, and that will be my next step. Thanks for reminding me about re-reading passages. We have a book we can use for that purpose.

 

I would love to find a reading tutor, but how will I know the tutor will teach the way the boys learn? Do you think they need to keep doing phonics??

 

Michele

[Michele in NC]

I have 2 kids that struggled with learning to read.

 

I used the I See Sam books www.iseesam.com

 

I did find that it was important to use a cursor (a notched 3x5 card) that you move along sound by sound as they read. This helps them with eye tracking and focusing on each sound in the word.

 

My 12dd has now about finished the 6th set of books but I have taken her back to set 4. Even though she could READ (meaning decode) set 6, she was not fluent. Now back in set 4 she is reading with fluency, expression, etc.

 

I think it is important to have them reread stuff that is easier to build up fluency.

 

What program(s) have you tried? Have you had their vision tested?

 

Ottakee,

 

We did use the I See Sam books for awhile, but I realized my older son was memorizing the words. I guess that might not have been a bad thing since that's the way he seems to learn?

 

No, I've not had their vision tested. Some of the programs we have used are Funnix (computer-based), Alpha Phonics, Phonics Pathways, Reading Reflex, Abecedarian, SSR&W & Phonics for Reading.

 

Thanks for responding!

Michele

[Ottakee]

If you have the books, you might try going back and using the cursor to show one SOUND at a time. He then has to say the sounds and not just memorize the whole word.

 

Have you looked at or tried Apples and Pears for spelling or Dancing Bears for reading drills? Both are very good, easy to use and designed for dyslexic students. They are a little pricey but you could likely get both of them for less than 1 appointment with a tutor. http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/

[Michele in NC]

Have you looked at or tried Apples and Pears for spelling or Dancing Bears for reading drills? Both are very good, easy to use and designed for dyslexic students. They are a little pricey but you could likely get both of them for less than 1 appointment with a tutor. http://www.soundfoundationsbooks.co.uk/

 

Ottakee,

 

I am using the Apples and Pears Spelling for my ds10 now. However, my ds12 is using All About Spelling 2. I've never used Dancing Bears. Do you use it? Has it helped your dyslexic dd to read better? Does it use phonics to teach reading?

 

Thanks,

Michele

[Ottakee]

I like the Dancing Bears program. My 12dd is using the Bear Necessities book--on B now. My 11dd did the Fast Track program.

 

I like that they drill real words plus others using the sounds but that aren't real words. They also have fluency drills to make SURE the child has mastered one level before moving on to the next level. I think (and they stress this) that we try to move the kids too fast and allow some "mistakes" along the way in our effort to get the kids up to grade level. In the end though, it just hurts the child as they are missing the skills they need.

 

Again, it is very easy to use. It is a little pricey but if it works, it is WAY cheaper than tutoring. Some of the stories are a little weird but they might appeal to a boys sense of humor.

 

You can see the examples online by clicking "see inside" under each book. Read through the directions and look at several pages to get a good idea of how the program works.

[Laurie4b]

I would ask around and see where other people in your area have had success as far as tutors go. Most good tutors automatically adapt to what kids need. That doesn't mean that they totally change their approach, but the heart of tutoring is taking into account the types of mistakes the children make, etc.

 

A child who has dyslexia is not automatically going to read by the typical phonics program. What the tutor does may look similar, but the strategies will likely be incorporating the phonemic awareness element, automaticity, and other things that regular phonics leaves out. Where do you live in NC? Chapel Hill Durham, Winston-Salem, and Charlotte all have training for Wilson tutors who tutor low income kids for free in the local public schools through the Augustine Project. The tutors charge private clients, but it tends to give those areas a lot of tutoring options. Another option to look for is a Phonographix tutor.

[Michele in NC]

Where do you live in NC? Chapel Hill Durham, Winston-Salem, and Charlotte all have training for Wilson tutors who tutor low income kids for free in the local public schools through the Augustine Project. The tutors charge private clients, but it tends to give those areas a lot of tutoring options. Another option to look for is a Phonographix tutor.

 

I live in Graham, North Carolina, about 30 minutes east of Greensboro and 30 minutes west of Durham/Chapel Hill.

[oceandaughter]

What about just dropping the phonics and using a different method? Perhaps something like using dolch readers or whole language (I know little about either.) I think the dolch method involves just memorizing lists of very common words and the readers use just those words. I collect antique schoolbooks (or rather I did) and I found some dolch chapter books that actually look pretty interesting and it may help boost self confidence.

[Michele in NC]

I like the Dancing Bears program. My 12dd is using the Bear Necessities book--on B now. My 11dd did the Fast Track program.

 

I like that they drill real words plus others using the sounds but that aren't real words. They also have fluency drills to make SURE the child has mastered one level before moving on to the next level. I think (and they stress this) that we try to move the kids too fast and allow some "mistakes" along the way in our effort to get the kids up to grade level. In the end though, it just hurts the child as they are missing the skills they need.

 

Again, it is very easy to use. It is a little pricey but if it works, it is WAY cheaper than tutoring. Some of the stories are a little weird but they might appeal to a boys sense of humor.

 

You can see the examples online by clicking "see inside" under each book. Read through the directions and look at several pages to get a good idea of how the program works.

 

Thanks, Ottakee. My 12yos has done programs before with nonsense words, and he totally freaks out! Is that what you're describing when you say "using the sounds but that aren't real words"?? He hates nonsense words, maybe because it really makes him "think" about the sounds.

 

I can't see the sample pages because our pdf files are not working right now.

[Laurie4b]

I sent you a PM. Look in the upper left hand corner when you sign in where it says User Control Panel and click on that.

[Ottakee]

They do add in a few nonsense words but most of them are real words.

 

In Bear Necessities 2 (about in the middle) they ahve words like:

chimp bung, ramp, pink

zest, gastp, melt, chink

 

Some sentences are:

We need some more chairs here.

There are six joints of pork left.

A cardboard box will not keep you dry in a hard rain.

 

In Fast Track (about in the middle/end) they have:

dump swim coal rich

silk drop hack posh

boiled quacking pairing boarder

 

As you can see, there are a few words the kids might not know---occ. a nonsense word but also occ. a word we don't use as much here in the US.

 

Hopefully you can see samples. That might help you figure out if it would work for your boys or not.

[Guest MILDREDP]

Hi Have You Tried The Edmark Programs Kids See The Words Repeat The Word Find The Words Very Good Program We Used It At The Scool I Worked In For Kids With Autism

[mom2g2b]

My son did well working with an Ortan Gillingham tutor. Most likely there is someone in Greensboro that has that training.

 

Vickie