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"Most homeschool kids go back to ps 2 years behind"


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This was said to me by the cashier at the grocery store today. Her source was her sister who is a high school principal. My saying that that was not true in my experience turned it into a "he said/she said" type of situation which I did not want to continue. So I pointed out that if it were true then it could be due to the fact that some families who go back to ps go back because homeschool isn't working for them. She did agree that that could be the case. So now I'm curious - is there any actual data (besides everyone's anecdotal data on either side of the issue) that says whether that is true or not? (I'm asking this out of my own curiosity not because I have any intention of continuing this conversation with Linda, the cashier.)

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I've heard something similar. After questioning more closely, I learned the entire opinion was formed based on ONE family that came into their school. They had never had other homeschoolers so they inaccurately formed an opinion that this must be the case for all homeschoolers. I then pointed out that some kids do very badly in public school, so by her logic, ALL kids in public school must be failing. She tried to argue it wasn't the same. Her mind was closed. There is simply nothing to be done. I would have said 'oh really? That's strange. My children's standardized tests place them several grade levels ahead of their peers. I guess if I put my kids back in school, they'll just pop them back 2 grades regardless, huh? Good thing I can keep homeschooling. It would suck to have the school try to make my kids look dumb to match the ability of where their kids are. May I have my change?'

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I have no figures, but my gut says that this could be due to a combination of the following: (a) some homeschoolers shouldn't be. My step-niece is an example of this. She put her 11yo kid online and said "you're on your own" because she felt it was better than sending him to school with lowlife [enter racial epithet here]. Ahem. He returned to PS because (according to him) his writing wasn't up to snuff after a year of HS. (b) Some kids are pulled out because they have special needs that are not being properly met at school. They would have been behind had they continued in PS too. © Successful homeschoolers with high-achieving kids are less likely to go back to PS because their parents continue to HS or they are placed in higher-standard private schools.

 

My gut also tells me the principal is either (i) exaggerating or (ii) basing his statistic on one or two cases.

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In my former life as a PS teacher, it depends on why they go back.

 

If the reason for going back is "We tried homeschooling, and it didn't work", often the kids ARE behind in one or more areas. Maybe the parents didn't do their homework, and didn't provide materials at the right level (a common problem that I've seen is an assumption that a Target $1 workbook labeled "Phonics gr 1" is really enough to teach phonics to a 1st grader, and that a child who completed that workbook is on a 2nd grade level now), or expected watching PBS kids and playing computer games to provide a complete education because "It's only 1st grade".

 

And often those kids are behind by a year or two. Usually, though, they're back in school sometime between 1st-3rd grade, and there's enough repetition in those early grades that they can often catch up.

 

If the parent planned on homeschooling for a set time, like until 7th grade or 9th grade, or during a 2 year military posting, or until the second child was old enough to go to school, or if the parent had to put the child back in school due to external forces (like a need to go to work for financial reasons or a custody agreement), the kids were usually on or above grade level in a majority of areas. They might have some gaps due to differences in curriculum, but overall, the parents were on top of where they should be in order to go back to PS, and made sure they were there.

 

I suspect a vast majority of HSers would be in the 2nd type were their children to return to PS-there may be gaps, but with the help of the parent, the child would quickly fill them as they became apparent, because the parents are USED to teaching their children and supporting their needs.

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I hear that one ALL THE TIME....."I know this ONE home schooled kid and I know they are ALL like that...." comments.

 

I usually respond with, "Yeah, I knew this one public schooled kid this one time....."

 

I can't help myself! :lol:

 

Dawn

 

I've heard something similar. After questioning more closely, I learned the entire opinion was formed based on ONE family that came into their school. They had never had other homeschoolers so they inaccurately formed an opinion that this must be the case for all homeschoolers. I then pointed out that some kids do very badly in public school, so by her logic, ALL kids in public school must be failing. She tried to argue it wasn't the same. Her mind was closed. There is simply nothing to be done. I would have said 'oh really? That's strange. My children's standardized tests place them several grade levels ahead of their peers. I guess if I put my kids back in school, they'll just pop them back 2 grades regardless, huh? Good thing I can keep homeschooling. It would suck to have the school try to make my kids look dumb to match the ability of where their kids are. May I have my change?'
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Home schooling doesn't work for everyone, same as PS doesn't. PS teachers will just see those whom it doesn't work for. They won't see the successes because the successes are still at home, homeschooling.

 

That's my standard response anyway. It's simply a case of selection bias on the teacher's part.

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I would be willing to say, based on dh's observation in schools, that the majority (more than half) go back behind in some way. That's because, as pp have said, some families put their dc back in because homeschooling isn't working out. Luckily for us, one family did put their high-achieving kiddos in one of the districts around here for high school (they homeschooled each child K-8,) which created a legend of "smart homeschoolers."

 

Most of the research widely cited on homeschooling is based on a survery years ago of parents who were using BJU's program. There has been little other research done. It would be almost impossible to do a real survey of homeschoolers' outcomes.

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A high school English teacher told me the same thing a few months ago, and then he said MOST of his students enter his class two years behind--not just home school students. I assume he meant two years behind state standards.

 

I definitely agree with any poster who says the successful home schoolers are still home schooling and not under the observation of public school administrators.

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My husband called around to some of the private highschools in our area (we aren't sure if we'll HS all of the way through or not) just to get an idea of standards, admission practices, etc...

 

One thing he heard over and over and it really stuck with us was that HS kids often come in behind in Math. He was told the reason for this is that most HS families base where their students are off of the PS standards, and the private school standards are so much higher. So, my 3rd grade son may look like a 4th-5th grader based on PS standards, but by the private school standards, he's barely meeting the grade in 3rd. (Hypothetically).

 

We found that very interesting.

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I could see that happening, but I'm guessing the majority of kids who go from HS to PS are ahead. I'm sure it's hard to quantify in a study, since most successful homeschoolers HS for the duration?

 

 

I think that sometimes, people just talk out of their you-know-whats. ;)

 

My other thought is that I'm not sure most teachers will know that a child who comes back at the start of a grade level was homeschooled, especially not if they're coming back to the start of middle or high school. Elementary school classroom teachers MIGHT take the time to flip through each student's record, but secondary teachers, who have 150 students, probably won't-and while parents of an elementary school student are likely to mention to the teacher "Oh, he's been homeschooled until this year", high school parents are less likely to do so.

 

Almost all the kids I've known who returned to PS from homeschooling that have been successful homeschoolers have returned at the start of middle or high school, usually when the student got into a magnet program. I'm not sure anyone but the guidance counselor or admissions office knew that the student was HSed until and unless the student mentioned it.

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I would have to say that my experience with homeschooled high schoolers is exactly this, or worse.

 

I taught science and English (double major: biology/English) at two different homeschool co-ops over a 12-year period (one was actually a once-a-week school, not a co-op). My high school students were, on the whole, behind in writing, science, and math. Literary analysis? Grammar? The simple act of test-taking? Completing an assignment and turning it in the next week? Forget it. They were years behind their public-schooled peers in both education and the ability to work independently.

 

I hope this is not the norm. The groups I taught for were very conservative Christians, and I know that many of the parents were homeschooling more out of fear and protectiveness than for a decent education.

 

I ended up putting my own children in school, in large part because my kids wanted to school with a group as they got older and I could find no one - no one!! - who had the same educational expectations or kids on grade level. My kids have thrived in the public school system here...but I sure had a lot of teachers that first year come up to me and remark about how they couldn't believe that my kids had been homeschooled because they were so capable.

 

I believe it's all about what the parents' goals are in their homeschool situation and how hard they work at making sure their kids receive a good education.

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It really depends on the family, the children, and situations. In our case, ds went to school last year for 9th grade and did fine. He had a passing grade in all of his classes. He was consistent with what he was like at home, he did well in the same areas as he had at home and had lower grades in the subjects he does not like as well. He went into school at grade level and stayed grade level. So I wouldn't say that 2 grade levels behind is true of all homeschoolers entering public school. My son would definitely be considered an average student. He really puts forth the minimum amount of effort.

Blessings,

Pat

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I know 3 kids from 2 different families who recently returned back to public school. One of the kids had been homeschooled from the begining and he was ranked #1 in his 9th grade class last year. The other two from the same family were only homeschooled for a year and both of them were commended on their test scores. The older one was #1 in his 8th grade class. My son returned to high school this year and I'm hoping that he does as well. He is back because he wanted to play sports and the school district here doesn't allow homeschoolers to play. My other children will most likely return in High School as well. We've known other families who have sent their children back and they were right on spot. I dont know of any who were behind.

 

Angela

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I heard Dr. Jay Wile talk at the Midwest Homeschool Convention. He talked about research that shows that homeschool students score higher than both public and private schools. They can't be behind and score higher on the tests. I'm wondering if it is just a difference in curriculum? Or the bias mentioned here of it being kids in homes where homeschooling didn't work. Here's a link to his handouts for that talk. It looks like a lot of the research is older. I wonder if there is new research?

http://www.drwile.com/hs_sol1.pdf

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Maybe many of the parents who find it overwhelming, do send their kids back to school behind, but not everyone is sent back to school. I certainly knew of a family like this when I was growing up.

 

But I don't understand why a grocery cashier gets a vote on your life.

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grader could be two years "ahead" in academics or two years "behind". That's why they level courses. Our local high school offers AP and honors to high achievers, standard courses for the less studious kids, even less rigorous courses for kids that have some struggles, and special needs for those with more significant challenges.

 

So, when someone says two years behind, you need to ask two years behind what? Two years behind the high achievers? Two years behind the average kids? Two years behind the SN kids?

 

There are many, many, many public schooled kids that are "two years behind". Take a look at the results of testing via NCLB and you'll see that that's true.

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I don't mean to be a complete jerk but a CASHIER tried debating homeschooling with you? I'm ready and willing to dive into a debate with someone who has statistics and facts to back up their arguments but a cashier when you're just trying to get your family's groceries? Uh, NO. I'd ask for a manager so that I could pay these people in PEACE.

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That's undergraduate, masters, and PhDs combined.

 

So that means that 70% of the population is probably "behind". Our comprehensive schools that push college for all poorly serve a huge chunk of our population by telling them continuously if they're not on the college track that they're "behind".

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HS children often appear "behind" PS kids when it comes to writing in particular because HS curriculum tend to emphasize quality over quantity in writing. The typical PS elementary student writes a LOT but it's not of very high quality. I saw the samples that were on the wall of a 3rd grade classroom in our zoned PS- let's just say that I was underwhelmed. I'd rather get a single well-written paragraph out of my DD at this point then the kind of 5 paragraph essays I saw displayed at the PS.

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I have no figures, but my gut says that this could be due to a combination of the following: (a) some homeschoolers shouldn't be. My step-niece is an example of this. She put her 11yo kid online and said "you're on your own" because she felt it was better than sending him to school with lowlife [enter racial epithet here]. Ahem. He returned to PS because (according to him) his writing wasn't up to snuff after a year of HS. (b) Some kids are pulled out because they have special needs that are not being properly met at school. They would have been behind had they continued in PS too. © Successful homeschoolers with high-achieving kids are less likely to go back to PS because their parents continue to HS or they are placed in higher-standard private schools.

 

My gut also tells me the principal is either (i) exaggerating or (ii) basing his statistic on one or two cases.

 

:iagree:

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I don't buy that. 75% of the homeschooled kids here go to public or private school for high school. They do fine, in fact most that I know of take honors and ap classes. My own son is taking higher maths and science at the community college and has since he was 16. My dd is taking honors classes at a very rigorous private school. I suspect my younger two won't be as advanced, but that is fine by me. Every kid is different, and I'm okay with that.

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They do?

 

Yeah, my son went to a private school. Starting 1/2 through 1st grade they start their journals. With these wonderful prompts "If I could make any sandwich..." It is a time for the teachers to have the kids do something on their own quietly for 20 min. I look at it as a time waster than made my ds's life miserable.

 

I think following TWTM way my son will be ahead on writing in High School and College. He would definitely be considered behind in writing for our state.

 

On the going back to school thing, we have to test every 2 years starting in 3rd grade. If you were going back to PS because you did not preform well enough on the tests and the authorities believed you were not doing a good job, I can imagine those kids could be 2 years behind.

 

My sister is a PS teacher, and there is a lot of anger towards homeschoolers there. The view that we are taking away their money by teaching our children at home. I think that is where a lot of these statements come from.

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HS children often appear "behind" PS kids when it comes to writing in particular because HS curriculum tend to emphasize quality over quantity in writing. The typical PS elementary student writes a LOT but it's not of very high quality. I saw the samples that were on the wall of a 3rd grade classroom in our zoned PS- let's just say that I was underwhelmed. I'd rather get a single well-written paragraph out of my DD at this point then the kind of 5 paragraph essays I saw displayed at the PS.

 

:iagree:

 

I have an extremely bright 5th grader that I would put up against any high schooler in many areas however if she were to enter ps tomorrow, her writing skills would be "behind". I did not require her to cobble together paragraphs in 1st grade and have spent more time on sentence structure. I would guarantee that the quality of what she writes and thinks is top notch but she doesn't know the mechanics of an essay. I'll take it my way thanks.

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Based on what, I wonder?

 

My 10 year old is taking two languages and a logic class that is a 300-level college class. But she didn't do state history in 4th grade, so that would make her behind, right? She hasn't completed fractions, either, so that would be another thing...

 

I've heard that comment, too, and I think it is definitely a case of children for whom homeschooling is not working, or families who have been compelled by the court to send the children to school after years of unsatisfactory reviews (and no attempt at correction) or because of horrific home situation, more than anything else. Not to mention kids who have learning challenges that would have resulted in an IEP early in ps, but they don't have one because, well, homeschooling is individual.

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Well, based on admissions applications to my school (and we get loads of homeschoolers) my answer is it depends a lot on the curriculum they use as well.

 

For some reason those ACE/School of Tomorrow packets are UBER popular among homeschoolers in SE Asia and kids coming from that program are ALWAYS so far behind we can't even accept them.

 

And as for writing? We start teaching writing in preschool with writer's workshop.

 

We do have an occasional homeschool kid who used a different curriculum and does well in our school.

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But I don't understand why a grocery cashier gets a vote on your life.

 

If by "vote in my life" you mean "will she influence my decision to continue to homeschool", then she gets no vote at all. If you mean, why did she feel comfortable commenting at all, see below.

 

I don't mean to be a complete jerk but a CASHIER tried debating homeschooling with you? I'm ready and willing to dive into a debate with someone who has statistics and facts to back up their arguments but a cashier when you're just trying to get your family's groceries? Uh, NO. I'd ask for a manager so that I could pay these people in PEACE.

 

I've known Linda for the 11 years we've lived in this small town. I know all about her grandkids who she babysits after school. She's bought zucchini bread from my kids for her dd's baby shower. So she's more of a "neighbor" in the sense of person in my neighborhood that I know as well as my neighbors in the houses next door even if I usually see her when I'm in her line at the grocery store.

 

She's opinionated and a bit prickly at times. She knows that I can be the same;)

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I don't see how there could possibly be any hard data. :001_huh:

 

There's probably more evidence supporting the fact that most dc who are withdrawn from public schools to begin hsing are at least 2 years behind. Just sayin'...:tongue_smilie:

 

What I would want to know regarding hsed dc who go to public school is not how they are academically at the beginning of the year but how they are doing by the end of that year. I'll bet some of the things they know and don't know have to do with how things run in a classroom, KWIM?

 

I can guarantee that not all children who transfer from one public school to another are at the grade level they should be, either.

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I would think it has to do with many factors, if in fact there is any merit to the statement at all. Mine would have trouble fitting into a traditional setting in younger years but not so much in middle or high school. I have seen several families who probably weren't really educating much at home anyway send their children back in elementary school. I even had one that went to my church that sent her 3rd grader back to 1st so he could, as she told me, "Get to have a year of going from station to station without too much stress." She chose that and told many people at my church. Of course, upon hearing that, they questioned the validity of home education itself.

 

We participate in a home school co-op and the science, literature and math courses are tremendously challenging. I think my ds's literature teacher is tougher than any teacher I ever had, including college. She demands rigorous work but they all love her.

 

All this to say, I would say that might be true more in elementary grades than middle and high school. Most people I know who home educate as a life style though seem to have children with excellent academic skills. In fact, I am often intimidated by the level of work some people on this board do at home but I have to stop, take a deep breath, and realize my home is an academically challenging environment but unique to us. Comparing either down or up does no good.

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Yeah, my son went to a private school.

 

Well, okay, but I thought we were talking about public schools.

 

The impression I got is that most public school students do very little writing of essays and more writing of brief responses to brief excerpts from novels, etc. Not very many long essays.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/13/AR2010071304642.htmlp

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I taught in public schools for about 10 years, so I've known a lot of kids.

 

I'm sorry to say it, but I was surprised to find that many (about 2/3) of the homeschoolers I taught at a co-op were quite behind. I taught a science class that required reading, writing, and math.

 

It was a bit alarming.

 

I just carried on with my job, adjusted the curriculum, and gave them a lot of help. It was a lot like teaching summer school students in the public school system.

 

I hope that isn't a reflection of homeschoolers in general, but we'll never really know.

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One thing he heard over and over and it really stuck with us was that HS kids often come in behind in Math. He was told the reason for this is that most HS families base where their students are off of the PS standards, and the private school standards are so much higher. So, my 3rd grade son may look like a 4th-5th grader based on PS standards, but by the private school standards, he's barely meeting the grade in 3rd. (Hypothetically).

 

We found that very interesting.

 

We used Galore Park books towards the end, because they track private school standards. The transition was easy and the boys did very well last year.

 

FWIW, the school has had good experiences with home educated children. I was told that, even if they had gaps, they were usually independent and quick learners and could fill them in.

 

Laura

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For some reason those ACE/School of Tomorrow packets are UBER popular among homeschoolers in SE Asia and kids coming from that program are ALWAYS so far behind we can't even accept them.

 

 

The kids were just plowing through the packets with little input from parents. I was curious about the curriculum and looked through some old workbooks belonging to one family. The mother was clearly not interested - every page had a tick, whatever the content. She was British and asked me a bit about how to get back into the UK system. I sent her some of the research I had been doing (her children were nearing high school age) but I don't think she followed up on it. I don't know what happened to them...

 

Laura

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My DD was way ahead of grade level in reading and a little ahead in math and writing when she started school. They hadn't even done much science yet at that point, so she was ahead there as well. She was way behind the rest of the class in cursive writing because I hadn't started teaching cursive yet, but it didn't take long for her to catch up.

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There does seem to be a complacency that anything is better than the public school system, and an assumption that public schools are uniformly awful, on the part of some parents.

 

This was the tone at the co-op where I taught. I just bit my tongue.

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I believe that it is a case of Confirmation Bias: They are more likely to remember or "hear" the stories/anecdotes that confirm the bias that they entered the conversation with, kwim?

 

It is the same reason that NICU nurses automatically think that my homebirth was a risky undertaking. NICU nurses do not see healthy homebirthed babies. Why WOULD they? Healthy babies, both homebirthed and hospital birthed, do not hang out in NICUs getting to know the other babies. Likewise, homeschooled kids who are achieving and doing well would re-enter ps.....WHY? (please do not take that as some sort of slam on hivemembers who have sent their kids back to ps, that's NOT what I'm saying.) I'm sure that sometimes the 'did well in homeschool now back to ps' kids DO re-enter ps and shock and awe all those naysayers, but they probably don't go around talking about it.

 

Better to keep the confirmation bias going. :001_huh:

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There does seem to be a complacency that anything is better than the public school system, and an assumption that public schools are uniformly awful, on the part of some parents.

 

I've seen homeschoolers say this almost word for word to other homeschoolers who are concerned that they're letting academics slip and their kids aren't progressing like they think they should be: "Even the worst day of homeschooling is better than the best day at a public school."

Edited by WordGirl
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I would have to say that my experience with homeschooled high schoolers is exactly this, or worse.

 

I taught science and English (double major: biology/English) at two different homeschool co-ops over a 12-year period (one was actually a once-a-week school, not a co-op). My high school students were, on the whole, behind in writing, science, and math. Literary analysis? Grammar? The simple act of test-taking? Completing an assignment and turning it in the next week? Forget it. They were years behind their public-schooled peers in both education and the ability to work independently.

 

I hope this is not the norm.

 

I heard similar accounts from our student advisor about independent/homeschool students in the charter school we attended. Our advisor worked with many students (K-8) who were two or more years behind in most subjects. One of our teachers decided not to teach on site classes because of the huge variation of student ability in a single grade.

 

The ability to work independently and meet deadlines should not be underestimated by homeschoolers.

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Hmm. Interesting.

 

When we enrolled my dd in public high school after two years of homeschooling, the guidance counselor assumed she would go straight into the International High School or the Honors program, based solely on the fact that she'd been homeschooled. At the beginning of our conversation, he had no other information about her academic levels.

 

Of course this is only anecdotal, and is probably influenced by the fact that we live in a college town in a nice area near one of the best high schools (by which I mean that the pool that this school draws from may be heavily weighted toward high-achieving students). Most of the homeschoolers we meet in our area are either unschoolers or quite academically rigorous (or both).

 

Cat

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Older dd just returned to public school this year for middle school. It's supposed to be the top middle school in our district and our district is supposed to be one of the best. They did their own assessments and she was placed on the Honors track. So far it's been easy and I've reviewed her textbooks and she should be able to spend the year learning how to handle deadlines, switching classes and working with different teachers. The material itself doesn't appear too difficult.

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I agree that it depends on

 

A. The curriculum the family uses

 

and

 

B. The reasons for returning to (or beginning) school

 

Three of mine are in a classical charter this year and from what I'm hearing, the former homeschoolers are at the top of their classes. It's the first year the school has been open and the others are coming from public, parochial and charter as well as homeschooling backgrounds.

 

Homeschooling, like traditional schooling, is all over the place. It varies region to region and family to family. Although a clear majority of families who are sending their kids to school are doing it because it's not working, just as the clear majority of kids are pulled out to homeschool because public school isn't working.

 

Her opinion is based upon faulty logic :)

Edited by Barb F. PA in AZ
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How does that statement line up with the ACT results according to this article? http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/hslda/200707310.asp

 

Do they somehow just catch up by the time they take the ACT? or is the ACT not assessing the areas that they are supposedly behind?

 

I personally think it's a finite set of kids who will take the ACT. And it's kid's who homeschool into high school (successful).

 

That said, we have a vibrant secular homeschool community locally and the vast majority of those kids are performing ahead of grade level and in many cases, drastically so (becoming more popular as a choice for families with gifted children). Perhaps not in terms of writing and "output". But generally, yes. People seem to assume you're way ahead if you're homeschooling here.

 

I know there are other populations that struggle. A distant relative of my husband homeschooled her high school as a ticket out of the building and had her find her own way. She was definitely not college bound. But I'm sure she's a kid that would have failed in the system too.

 

I do think the dynamic of this particular board is unique. I think this board are probably some of the most academically minded homeschoolers out there.

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