Answering questions about Writing With Skill

[Capt_Uhura]

Janice - How many times have I said I love you?? LOL. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm right there so I will definitely do as you suggest.

 

Capt Uhura

 

May I make a suggestion about Kane?

 

If you pick up a copy and it doesn't immediately resonate with you, don't set it aside without flipping ahead to Part III. (Parts I & II required larger blocks of time that I had available when I first bought the book, so I put it aside and didn't come back to it for years. Big mistake.) Part III covers paragraphs and is much easier to handle with smaller chunks of time. I would recommend that you re-read chapter 24 of TWTM; grab Kane, a spiral notebook, and a pencil; and just begin. If you are teaching middle schoolers and are using traditional materials, chances are your kids are attempting to write expository paragraphs; you can probably put your new knowledge to work immediately. Continue on with the sections on the sentence and diction. Just work through the book on your own. If your experience mirrors mine, this book will help you become a better teacher.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[Capt_Uhura]

New Oxford Guide is listed in TWTM; see chapter 24.

 

http://www.amazon.com/New-Oxford-Guide-Writing/dp/0195090594/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

 

Peace,

Janice

 

I looked at the TOC for the white New Oxford Guide and the black Oxford Guide and they are identical. Is the black one (pub date 2000) a newer edition of the white one, New Oxford Guide (pub date 1994)? I was burned once before by buying a newer edition of a book and it was radically different from the edition I had checked out from the library. Much of the content (nearly all the sample essays) had been removed and placed on a website rather than in the book....although the formatting was much improved but I bought the book for the essays. I don't want to make that mistake again. The black Oxford Essential Guide has 128 more pages but is smaller in size.

[LibraryLover]

I've been reading through the free pages of WWS for a few days now. I am so impressed. When did direct instruction become a lost art? I appreciate the revival.

 

I am also a WWE fan. I think some hs friends are sick of hearing about it. :) I did convince one friend to purchase WWE, although she bought a higher level than I recommended. She thought the lower level seemed 'too easy'. It wasn't, and they had to backtrack. Slow and steady, inch by inch, layer by layer is the way to go, ime.

 

I appreciate the cohesiveness, the goal clarity, if you will, of these programs. One of my oldest children struggles with dyslexia and dysgraphia. WWE & WWS in the early years would have saved us some writing tears later, I think.

Edited September 30, 2011 by LibraryLover

[2GAboys]

My 5th grader and I are about to finish week two in WWS. We use SOTW 4 for history. I am concerned about the outline activity from the activity guide and wanted to know what you would recommend since it does not appear to be level 1 outlining. I don't want to confuse him.

 

DS is actually doing this outline activity as a group activity in a classroom of kids. (He attends a hybrid school for a couple of classes, twice a week). The teacher for 5th grade history (vol 4) is young and new, never heard of TWTM (before me) and may be open to changes.

 

This school adopted SOTW this year and are, pursuant to the academic dean, clueless regarding how to teach it classically. (This I found out when I brought my huge disappointment to her regarding the fact that they were having the 5th graders write answers to the review questions by reframing the question in the answer instead of having the parent and student do the oral and written narration on home days).

 

I have given them the crash course in your philosophy (I've taught all levels of FLL and 1-3 of WWE); they now say they see the "value in Bauer's suggestions" and said they will be making changes. Then the next week the outline was put into the curriculum. They are still having the 5th graders answering a set number of review questions in writing by reframing the question in the answer (except mine son-he is allowed to turn in narrations instead). This may be our last semester there as I fear they will start requiring Shurley compositions. I did loan them WWE last year when I found out about the change but I don't think the academic dean made the connection that SOTW teaches history through the development of writing skills (using classical methods). They may be realizing this now. We'll see what future changes there are. They have been very appreciative of all the info I have given them thus far.

 

We love your materials and are looking forward to ALL as well.

[jibaker103]

It could, but the New Oxford Guide covers much of the same material in more detail. I like the Rulebook for Arguments as an intro to rhetoric at the beginning of the stage--it's a gentle way to move into a new way of thinking--but once you're in the 11th and 12th grade years you can go straight to the New Oxford Guide and save time.

 

SWB

 

My ds is currently in 10th grade and I have him currently working on ALL, WWS, IEW Medieval HBWL, Editor in Chief, and Word Roots. I would like to alter this to the following for 10th - 12th grades:

 

Logic - Traditional Logic 2 (1 semester) and Material Logic (1 semester)

Editing - Editor in Chief or Write Source Daily Language Lessons

Vocabulary - Combination of Word Roots, vocabulary.com, and Notebooking (TWTM/CW)

Grammar - ALL, R&S 8, 9, and 10

Writing - WWS, Classical Writing Maximum/Cheria in 1 month (have up to 3 mos to complete), Herodotus (1 yr), Plutarch (1 semester), and Demosthenes (1 yr if available) or Kane/Corbett with They Say, I Say.

 

My ds is a fabulous creative writer and a good nonfiction writer but could be great if he did not struggle with notes, outlining, and organization of his papers. I do not think we will be able to stick with WWS because I think he will work faster than it becomes available. Is this a good plan for him? If Demosthenes is not available when he is ready should he start with Kane or Corbett? Is there anything I should change or double up on? We are homeschooling 6 weeks on and one week off year-round. Thank you so much for your advice!

Edited October 2, 2011 by jibaker103

[tenoraddict]

2) AVAILABILITY OF FUTURE LEVELS. I'm on schedule to finish one level per year. What this means is that future levels will be available in September of each succeeding year...as long as you're willing to work from manuscript/PDF copies that we send you by email until the printed books are finished.

3) INTENDED AGE/GRADE: Writing With Skill can be begun by any student who is writing at a fifth grade level or above.

 

 

In eleventh grade, have her start working through the Oxford Guide to Writing once per week in addition to WWS.

 

In twelfth grade, have her work on the Oxford Guide to Writing 3x per week. If you want her EXTRAORDINARILY well prepared, add in THEY SAY, I SAY: THE MOVES THAT MATTER IN ACADEMIC WRITING, which is one of the clearest and most useful guides I've found to the peculiarities of university-level composition. (I'll be adding it into future editions of TWTM.)

 

SWB

 

Another mother of an 8th grader here... SWB, if you're on track to finish one/year, then can we be greedily optimistic about WWStyle 1 being available when our kiddos hit their Senior year? If so, would you still recommend New Oxford once/week in 11th grade and 3x/week in 12th? Yes, this is years in the future, but if I don't ask now, I'll forget to ask later.

 

Thanks,

 

Becky

[dmrranch]

Thank you so much for this thread, the S&S, and the ability to have WWS to work through because I think this has helped me to better understand how to use the recommendations in TWTM for the rhetorics stage.:001_smile:

 

My 15 dd and I sat down and discussed what was expected of her and she assured me she felt comfortable taking notes and keeping a vocabulary journal as she reads her literature. (She practiced this last year with a co-op class on British literature as I mentioned in previous thread.)

 

It appears to me she has the ability to process the "ideas" of the rhetoric stage but still needs help with some of the skills from the logic stage. So, due to her age and the fact that she is reading the Great Books already, I am trying to find a way to continue with rhetoric without holding her back just because of poor word choice or some missing grammatical element in a sentence. She can summarize and she can do one level outlines, but could use practice. She is not having any trouble with ALL but is not quite ready to handle the grammar in R&S 8. Also, she feels WWS is too simple for her but I plan to move quickly through the areas she has obviously mastered and slow down to work on the skills where she could use a little help.

 

Would you please check my proposed plan for the rest of the year based on what I outlined above and let me know if we should change anything? Any input would be appreciated. I should note that she has no desire to follow a degree in the humanities in college. She is interested in animal science production or industry right now but loves to read the classics. Thank you! (I know this contains elements other than writing, but it helps me to see the big picture.)

 

1. Finish Vocabulary from the Roots UP study and continue vocabulary "Word Study" proposed in TWTM.

 

2. WWS1 until we finish it. Then, when WWS2 is available, we'll work through areas as needed.

 

3. Rhetoric-Finish Art of Argument and then work through the Oxford Guide. (I was waiting to use logic where it was scheduled in CW. We're going ahead with it now.)

 

4. Language-Finish ALL then R&S 8, 9, 10. Read Elements of Style as proposed in TWTM.

 

5. Great Books-Follow TWTM for Great Books notebook. WWS1 appears to help guide through the research paper in the spring.

 

6. Continue McGuffey oral reading as her "speech therapy". Reading this out loud and using it for dictation has seemed to really help, along with everything else we are doing. She is part of a livestock judging team which will help her with debate skills by giving "oral reasons".

 

Thank you in advance!!

Edited October 1, 2011 by dmrranch

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Hi Susan,

Just wondering if you might have missed my question in post #129? I understand if you do not want to get into comparing WWS to IEW, but if you could just answer my question about using a book on paragraph writing, I would appreciate it.

 

Thanks!

 

You would not need to use a separate guide to paragraph writing, no. The outlining and rewriting exercises teach students how to construct paragraphs properly.

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Another mother of an 8th grader here... SWB, if you're on track to finish one/year, then can we be greedily optimistic about WWStyle 1 being available when our kiddos hit their Senior year? If so, would you still recommend New Oxford once/week in 11th grade and 3x/week in 12th? Yes, this is years in the future, but if I don't ask now, I'll forget to ask later.

 

Thanks,

 

Becky

 

Um...

 

I think that would be "ridiculously optimistic" rather than "greedily optimistic." :) Yes, it's possible, but the rhetoric levels will be complex and difficult and will take a fair amount of time to construct.

 

As to your "would I still use the New Oxford guide" question, I can't answer that yet...

 

Stay tuned?

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Would you please check my proposed plan for the rest of the year based on what I outlined above and let me know if we should change anything? Any input would be appreciated. I should note that she has no desire to follow a degree in the humanities in college. She is interested in animal science production or industry right now but loves to read the classics. Thank you! (I know this contains elements other than writing, but it helps me to see the big picture.)

 

1. Finish Vocabulary from the Roots UP study and continue vocabulary "Word Study" proposed in TWTM.

 

2. WWS1 until we finish it. Then, when WWS2 is available, we'll work through areas as needed.

 

3. Rhetoric-Finish Art of Argument and then work through the Oxford Guide. (I was waiting to use logic where it was scheduled in CW. We're going ahead with it now.)

 

4. Language-Finish ALL then R&S 8, 9, 10. Read Elements of Style as proposed in TWTM.

 

5. Great Books-Follow TWTM for Great Books notebook. WWS1 appears to help guide through the research paper in the spring.

 

6. Continue McGuffey oral reading as her "speech therapy". Reading this out loud and using it for dictation has seemed to really help, along with everything else we are doing. She is part of a livestock judging team which will help her with debate skills by giving "oral reasons".

 

Thank you in advance!!

 

This is a very thorough plan. As long as it doesn't overwhelm her, it will do a good job of preparing her for what she wants to do. Be sure not to add in any of the R&S composition exercises--just do the grammar--otherwise you're going to end up with overkill on the writing front.

 

SWB

[dmrranch]

1. Finish Vocabulary from the Roots UP study and continue vocabulary "Word Study" proposed in TWTM.

 

2. WWS1 until we finish it. Then, when WWS2 is available, we'll work through areas as needed.

 

3. Rhetoric-Finish Art of Argument and then work through the Oxford Guide. (I was waiting to use logic where it was scheduled in CW. We're going ahead with it now.)

 

4. Language-Finish ALL then R&S 8, 9, 10. Read Elements of Style as proposed in TWTM.

 

5. Great Books-Follow TWTM for Great Books notebook. WWS1 appears to help guide through the research paper in the spring.

 

6. Continue McGuffey oral reading as her "speech therapy". Reading this out loud and using it for dictation has seemed to really help, along with everything else we are doing. She is part of a livestock judging team which will help her with debate skills by giving "oral reasons".

 

Thank you in advance!!

 

This is a very thorough plan. As long as it doesn't overwhelm her, it will do a good job of preparing her for what she wants to do. Be sure not to add in any of the R&S composition exercises--just do the grammar--otherwise you're going to end up with overkill on the writing front.

 

SWB

 

Thank you! (Of course we still have math, science, and foreign language, etc. I didn't mention that. )

 

In case I do not have an opportunity to ask you this in the future, could you give me an idea of what to drop and in what order if this is overwhelming? Right now this is MY plan. After we put it into action we'll see...

 

I like the idea of using Oxford Guide and Elements of Style to teach her the skill of using reference materials and taking notes from them. However, I'm wondering if there will be overlap especially when used in conjunction with R&S. Plus, I'll be fitting in WWS as it is available only using the sections where she needs extra practice.

 

Again, thank you and I hope I'm not being selfish by asking another question! I know you're busy writing and if I would leave you alone you might could finish! :D

[jibaker103]

Mrs. Bauer,

 

I think you may have missed my questions in post #157 which I since revised. If you take a few minutes to respond your opinion would be greatly appreciated!

[susie in tx]

Dr. Bauer,

 

My 13 yo dd has been working through the WWS sample and she has really enjoyed it. I am seeing improvement and we are only on week 5. Thank you so very much for making this available to us ahead of time.

 

Susie

[aelgraham]

Hi,

 

This may have been addressed somewhere... We're on Week 5 which refers to the 'Time and Sequence Words' reference sheet in the appendix. Do I have this somewhere? I have the first 7 weeks from the free download. Loving it!

 

Thanks!

 

Amy

[Colleen in NS]

We're on Week 5 which refers to the 'Time and Sequence Words' reference sheet in the appendix. Do I have this somewhere?

 

Mine was right at the end of week 4 on pages 55-56. (although I wonder if there will be a longer list in the appendix)

[Susan Wise Bauer]

In case I do not have an opportunity to ask you this in the future, could you give me an idea of what to drop and in what order if this is overwhelming? Right now this is MY plan. After we put it into action we'll see...

 

I like the idea of using Oxford Guide and Elements of Style to teach her the skill of using reference materials and taking notes from them. However, I'm wondering if there will be overlap especially when used in conjunction with R&S. Plus, I'll be fitting in WWS as it is available only using the sections where she needs extra practice.

 

If you need to drop something, jettison the vocabulary first; she'll get quite a lot of it just from her reading.

 

Second, drop the Elements of Style since it overlaps with Oxford Guide.

 

Third, don't do WWS and the Oxford Guide simultaneously...do one or the other.

 

HTH.

 

SWB

[Susan Wise Bauer]

My ds is currently in 10th grade and I have him currently working on ALL, WWS, IEW Medieval HBWL, Editor in Chief, and Word Roots. I would like to alter this to the following for 10th - 12th grades:

 

Logic - Traditional Logic 2 (1 semester) and Material Logic (1 semester)

Editing - Editor in Chief or Write Source Daily Language Lessons

Vocabulary - Combination of Word Roots, vocabulary.com, and Notebooking (TWTM/CW)

Grammar - ALL, R&S 8, 9, and 10

Writing - WWS, Classical Writing Maximum/Cheria in 1 month (have up to 3 mos to complete), Herodotus (1 yr), Plutarch (1 semester), and Demosthenes (1 yr if available) or Kane/Corbett with They Say, I Say.

 

My ds is a fabulous creative writer and a good nonfiction writer but could be great if he did not struggle with notes, outlining, and organization of his papers. I do not think we will be able to stick with WWS because I think he will work faster than it becomes available. Is this a good plan for him? If Demosthenes is not available when he is ready should he start with Kane or Corbett? Is there anything I should change or double up on? We are homeschooling 6 weeks on and one week off year-round. Thank you so much for your advice!

 

Jennifer,

 

This is a good plan; if you were to change anything, you could drop the Material Logic unless he's particularly interested in the subject; it won't do much for his rhetoric skills (although it's good for problem-solving).

 

I'd always do Kane before Corbett. Corbett is difficult...closer to university than high school level.

 

SWB

[jibaker103]

Jennifer,

 

This is a good plan; if you were to change anything, you could drop the Material Logic unless he's particularly interested in the subject; it won't do much for his rhetoric skills (although it's good for problem-solving).

 

I'd always do Kane before Corbett. Corbett is difficult...closer to university than high school level.

 

SWB

Thank you so much for responding, I feel such a sense of relief to have this planned out! One more question and I think I am set on English, there has been mention of completing D'Angelo's book with Corbett's writing samples. Should I plan on this before Kane if ds goes through CW's Plutarch?

[Colleen in NS]

Second, drop the Elements of Style since it overlaps with Oxford Guide.

 

I'd always do Kane before Corbett. Corbett is difficult...closer to university than high school level.

 

These two bits of info. are helpful to me, too. Thanks for continuing to check up on this thread and answer people's questions.

[aelgraham]

Mine was right at the end of week 4 on pages 55-56. (although I wonder if there will be a longer list in the appendix)

 

 

Ahh... there it is in the *student manual*, just like it says! Thanks!

[Sweet Home Alabama]

My ds just got to Week 9 Day 3 in WWS. It says to use Appendix X for Points of View, but I don't see this anywhere. Can you give us some help with this? :001_smile:

[Justin from WTM]

That appendix is now (post-typesetting) called Appendix II. It's very short; just a brief list. Here is the entire thing:

 

POINTS OF VIEW

 

FOR PLACE DESCRIPTIONS

1. From above (impersonal)

2. From inside

3. From one side or angle

3. Moving through or around

 

FOR SCIENTIFIC DESCRIPTIONS

1. Removed from the object or phenomenon

2. Present with the object or phenomenon

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Thank you so much for responding, I feel such a sense of relief to have this planned out! One more question and I think I am set on English, there has been mention of completing D'Angelo's book with Corbett's writing samples. Should I plan on this before Kane if ds goes through CW's Plutarch?

 

No, I wouldn't add D'Angelo into the mix. You've got plenty to do there. I have mixed feelings about D'Angelo in any case; his explanations of rhetorical techniques are clear and accessible to high school students, but his examples are (IMO) mostly VERY BAD WRITING.

 

SWB

[jibaker103]

No, I wouldn't add D'Angelo into the mix. You've got plenty to do there. I have mixed feelings about D'Angelo in any case; his explanations of rhetorical techniques are clear and accessible to high school students, but his examples are (IMO) mostly VERY BAD WRITING.

 

SWB

 

Thank you very much for your advice and wisdom!

[Verity]

Just looking for an update: Amazon says the book will be available in print January 2012; however, I would really like to buy it before then. PDF is fine.

 

My middle schooler has finished week 6 in the sample and it's really been a hit here, the first writing program where he could do it independently and is producing decent writing! WWS is a hit! :001_smile:

[[email protected]]

The PDF should be available this month. We will keep you posted!

 

Moderator

[Capt_Uhura]

The PDF should be available this month. We will keep you posted!

 

Moderator

 

:party::hurray:

[elegantlion]

The PDF should be available this month. We will keep you posted!

 

Moderator

 

Do you have pricing set for the PDF?

[Capt_Uhura]

Wasn't there a pre-order discount w/ free-shipping? Does anyone remember what the price was?

[yvonne]

Can't find the actual thread, but this was the text. (I cut & paste it when I pre-ordered.)

 

**********

Hello all,

Justin here from Peace Hill Press. Susan may have already mentioned this, but if you're just catching up with this thread:

 

Anyone who orders Writing With Skill (the print version, not the PDF) from Peace Hill Press before December 1 receives a 10% discount plus free shipping. Call 1.877.322.3445 or email info AT peacehillpress DOT com with your shipping & billing info & phone number. We'll request your payment information when the book is ready to ship.

[freerange]

That's the print version. Anyone know how much the pdfs will be?

[Capt_Uhura]

Thanks Yvonne!

[amylovesyardsales]

I have been doing the free download for the past 7 weeks with my 7th and 9th graders...with much success. Thank you! We are currently in our 8th week...and out of material. I keep looking on the website for the completed book...not sure if you have the next few weeks available for folks like me...until the book can be purchased. Thanks again! Amy

[Mom22ns]

Amy,

If you'll just go back in this thread you can find how to request the 20 week sample by emailing PHP.

[robsiew]

Susan,

 

We are on Week 8, Day 4 and I'm a little confused. There is supposed to be a "Space and Distance Words/Phrases" sheet, but I can't fine one anywhere. Here are the directions as written on Week 8, Day 4:

 

 

Pull out your list of Time and Sequence Words. This is not an exhaustive (complete) list, and many of the words on it can work in more than one way (if, for example, you wanted to explain that a tree stood three feet to the right of a house, you could say, “The tree was next to the house†or “The tree was to the right of the house†or even “The tree was a short distance from the houseâ€). But the categories on the list will give you a starting place as you write your

descriptions. Before you go on with the next step, look up from your paper and choose one object or piece of furniture in the room. Now look down your lists of Space and Distance Words/Phrases

and count how many of them could accurately describe your relationship to that object.

 

Did you really mean "Time and Sequence Words" list in the first sentence or is that a typo? I'm just kind of confused since I don't see a list at all for the Space and Distance Words. Thanks for any help you can give us!

 

We are both LOVING WWS! My ds has never said he enjoys writing (he loathed dictation from WWE!), but for the first time this year he said he not only tolerates it, he actually enjoys it! Thanks for giving a non-writing kid the TOOLS to learn to write! And the teacher's guide is just heavenly! I really feel like I can teach writing! :D

[onaclairadeluna]

Susan,

 

We are on Week 8, Day 4 and I'm a little confused. There is supposed to be a "Space and Distance Words/Phrases" sheet, but I can't fine one anywhere. Here are the directions as written on Week 8, Day 4:

 

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310976&highlight=space+distance+words+wws

[robsiew]

Thank you so much for posting that!! :001_smile: I didn't realize there was another thread.

[MomsintheGarden]

We are on WWS Week 9, Day 4, and need the Points of View Appendix. Could someone please post it or point me to where I can get it?

 

Also, are there any other appendices we will need before the end of Week 20? We have Space and Distance, and Time and Sequence words.

 

Thanks!

 

GardenMom

[Colleen in NS]

We are on WWS Week 9, Day 4, and need the Points of View Appendix. Could someone please post it or point me to where I can get it?

 

 

It's upthread, post #174. I just had to search for it yesterday. :D

[MomsintheGarden]

Thank you, Colleen!:)

[[email protected]]

The complete PDFs are now ready for purchase from Peace Hill Press! We're hoping to have printed books within six weeks.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/language-arts/writing/writing-middle-grades.html

 

Moderator

[annabanana1992]

SOLD! Thank you so much for providing free pdfs to use until these became available.

[nukeswife]

The complete PDFs are now ready for purchase from Peace Hill Press! We're hoping to have printed books within six weeks.

 

Here's the link:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/store/language-arts/writing/writing-middle-grades.html

 

Moderator

 

I went and purchased and downloaded mine as soon as I saw the notice on your Facebook page. I did notice that the parent guide came with 10 total downloads, don't get me wrong I'm not wanting to look a gift horse in the mouth, but thought it odd since all other things I've ever bought as PDFs from PHP always came with 5.

[TC5]

We've barely gotten into WWS. The student workbook is not consumable, is it?

[Quiver0f10]

I apologize if this has been asked already, but could WWS be used in grades 9-12 if your student is a weak writer? Would this be enough by itself to prepare them well for college writing?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

We've barely gotten into WWS. The student workbook is not consumable, is it?

 

We're in about week six. It isn't really consumable, but there are some sections where an outline is given and the student is asked to circle or cross out items. We have copied those pages to use as sheets for marking up.

 

Otherwise they are sets of directions or readings to outline, but not really workbook pages (not at all like WWE or FLL).

[Capt_Uhura]

Is 6 weeks up yet? :D

[Create Your Ritual]

Is 6 weeks up yet? :D

 

:tongue_smilie:

 

no kidding..

[creekmom]

Does anyone know Peace Hill Press's price for the 2 WWS books (not the download)?

[kckamy]

Does anyone know Peace Hill Press's price for the 2 WWS books (not the download)?

 

$32.95 + $28.95 = $61.90

 

If you pre-order before Dec. 1, you will receive 10% off and free shipping which brings the total to $55.71.

 

Amy