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Answering questions about Writing With Skill

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#101 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 11:40 AM

Susan would you be so kind to answer this situation:

DS is in 5th and is doing SOTW 4 and their outlining is different than what we've covered so far in WWE. Are the examples of outlines in SOTW 4 (Ch 1-4) considered more advanced than one level and if so how do I pull together teaching outlining from WWE and doing the outlines in SOTW? For example although he can answer the questions to get it into the outlines for the history chapters should I still stick with "one level" outlines for science and just have him give a roman numeral with the subject for each paragraph in the science reading?


Actually, the outlines in SOTW4 are, practically speaking, one level--the student is given a topic and asked to pick out the main ideas related to it. So yes, I would stick with one-level outlines for science.

We structured the SOTW4 outlines so that they would help students review and retain the information as well as practice outlining.

Once he learns outlining should he do that in place of narrations or continue narrations until he gets to actually rewriting from outlines which may be next year?

Thanks,


I'd have him continue to do a narration at least once a week, so that he continues to practice writing in connected prose.

SWB

#102 Lawana

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:23 PM

I have attempted Week 1, lessons 1 and 2 with ds12, 7th grade. He has done CW Aesop, but very little other writing. Some copywork and dictation, but no narrations.

In response to the instructions, he wrote 5-6 full sentences instead of phrases.

From lesson 2:
Sylvia was thin and had very little to keep her warm.
Sylvia refused to eat what the man offered.
She kept threatening to pull the communication cord.
There were wolves on the track.
Sylvia was afraid of wolves.
A wolf got in the cart and the man stabbed it.

We didn't proceed any further, because it seems clear that he isn't able to differentiate the main ideas from the details. So I ordered The Complete Writer. How far back do I need to take him?

TIA

#103 freerange

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:34 PM

Welcome back to the electrified world! I'll be jumping up and down to read a scope and sequence, just a rough one, not set in stone, for all 4 years. It really helps me to know where I'm going and what to expect for each year. It helps me to not panic.


:iagree: And my dd was excited to hear there will be Writing With Style further down the line.

Edited by freerange, 09 September 2011 - 03:55 AM.
rereading without a cold made it seem clearer. :blush:


#104 Colleen in NS

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 04:02 PM

I deleted the rest because I figured out what I needed to know after combing through my 20-week sample of WWS 1. This series is just amazing.

free shipping.


Does this include to Canada? I'd understand if the answer is "no." I haven't looked at the PHP site in awhile, so I don't know the current policy of shipping to Canada in general.

Edited by Colleen in NS, 08 September 2011 - 07:19 PM.
irrelevant info., and I think I've answered most of my own questions


#105 TC5

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:13 PM

Actually, the outlines in SOTW4 are, practically speaking, one level--the student is given a topic and asked to pick out the main ideas related to it. So yes, I would stick with one-level outlines for science.

We structured the SOTW4 outlines so that they would help students review and retain the information as well as practice outlining.
SWB


Thank you for clarifying this! I was confused as to what we should do when we start SOTW4 this year.

#106 TC5

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:16 PM

A student who finishes Writing With Skill should be able to go into freshman composition and do just fine.

A student who finishes Writing With Style should be able to skip freshman comp and go straight to upper level writing courses.

Hope that helps. :)

SWB


Impressive! Thank you. Now to hope WWSt will come out right after WWSk, so my oldest can use at least part of it. We are so excited to have WWSk. Thank you very much!

#107 Colleen in NS

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:10 PM

..9th grader...would it still benefit him to do the 4 levels (along with other writing)


Will you share what you mean by "along with other writing?" I'm finding I might have to rework my plan for my rising 8th grader, and it'll be helpful to hear what other older kids might do along with WWS (Rulebook? Extra outlines/compositions in history/science/literature? Something else?), and why. Thank you!

#108 Justin

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 08:26 AM

I deleted the rest because I figured out what I needed to know after combing through my 20-week sample of WWS 1. This series is just amazing.



Does this include to Canada? I'd understand if the answer is "no." I haven't looked at the PHP site in awhile, so I don't know the current policy of shipping to Canada in general.


WWS pre-orders from Canada will not receive free shipping.

Edited by WTM Moderator, 26 October 2011 - 12:49 PM.


#109 Sebastian (a lady)

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 11:22 AM

Could you recommend a couple thesauri (thesauruses?) that would be appropriate to the lessons in WWS?

We're finding that the more recent thesaurus I bought don't have the initial section with the numbered headings. Nor does it seem to have many entries for common nouns (dirt and animal in lesson 3.4 weren't really covered, even under the different synonyms listed in the teacher text).

#110 TC5

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 03:16 PM

Could you recommend a couple thesauri (thesauruses?) that would be appropriate to the lessons in WWS?

We're finding that the more recent thesaurus I bought don't have the initial section with the numbered headings. Nor does it seem to have many entries for common nouns (dirt and animal in lesson 3.4 weren't really covered, even under the different synonyms listed in the teacher text).


Which one did you buy? I'm planning to get Roget's International Thesaurus, 7th Edition, as soon as I get back to the United States. Hmm. I think the price went up by a few dollars since I last checked. Still not bad.

#111 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 03:20 PM

I have Roget's International Thesaurus 7th edition edited by Barbara Ann Kipfer, Ph.D.

It's a bit different from what SWB posted but close enough. For knowledge it has:

928 Knowledge
NOUNS 1 knowledge, knowing, knowingness, ken; command, reach; ....
2 cognizance; cognition
.......

VERBS 12 know, perceive, apprehend, prehend,

ADJS 15 knowing, ....


"Beneath the word eager, you would find a series of other adjectives with different shades of meaning, each followed by a number: for example,
consenting 775.4
desirous 634.21
willing 622.5
zealous 635.9


In the book I have, I see...

eager
desirous 100.21
anxious 101.8
expectant 130.11
impatient 135.6
willing 324.5
active 330.17
enterprising 404.8
prepared 405.16
consenting 441.4

#112 acraig

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 01:08 PM

I have seen a few of you mention that you have a 20 week version of WWS. I have emailed Patricia for it and the extended version of ALL, but have not received a reply. I imagine they are still trying to put things together after the storm. Would any of you be willing to share your extended versions?

#113 AimeeM

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 01:11 PM

I second this. Lol.
I emailed several weeks ago for it.
I do, however, understand that they are up to their eyeballs in it all since the storm.

I have seen a few of you mention that you have a 20 week version of WWS. I have emailed Patricia for it and the extended version of ALL, but have not received a reply. I imagine they are still trying to put things together after the storm. Would any of you be willing to share your extended versions?



#114 Moderator

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 04:01 PM

Ms. Worth has no unanswered requests for Writing With SKill.

If you didn't get an answer, send another email to [email protected]. Make sure that you're asking for the first 20 weeks of WWS. She has had a lot of people asking for the first 20 weeks of ALL (the grammar-only program). This is NOT available.

Moderator

UPDATE: Do not resend emails! See update two posts down.

Edited by Moderator, 15 September 2011 - 05:00 PM.


#115 Nakia

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 04:54 PM

Ms. Worth has no unanswered requests for Writing With SKill.

If you didn't get an answer, send another email to [email protected]. Make sure that you're asking for the first 20 weeks of WWS. She has had a lot of people asking for the first 20 weeks of ALL (the grammar-only program). This is NOT available.

Moderator


I sent two emails and didn't get a response, but it was during the time that PHP had lost power. Someone else emailed it to me. Hope that's okay.

#116 Moderator

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 05:00 PM

Update!

There has apparently been some difficulty with the account.

We just downloaded an unread 144 emails from it.

So please do NOT email again--unless you still don't hear from us within three days or so! We apologize. This has not been a smooth fall!

Moderator

#117 Nakia

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 05:05 PM

Update!

There has apparently been some difficulty with the account.

We just downloaded an unread 144 emails from it.

So please do NOT email again--unless you still don't hear from us within three days or so! We apologize. This has not been a smooth fall!

Moderator



Oh no!!! That is rough!! Hope it goes smooth from here on out!

#118 AimeeM

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 07:31 PM

Ah. I was fairly certain that in the ALL thread, SWB said that if we wanted more than the 7 weeks provided, to e-mail and it would be available. Bummer.
Sorry that you guys have had such problems with the e-mail system. I bet it's pretty loaded lately! Lol.

Ms. Worth has no unanswered requests for Writing With SKill.

If you didn't get an answer, send another email to [email protected]. Make sure that you're asking for the first 20 weeks of WWS. She has had a lot of people asking for the first 20 weeks of ALL (the grammar-only program). This is NOT available.

Moderator

UPDATE: Do not resend emails! See update two posts down.



#119 Sebastian (a lady)

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 06:41 AM

Which one did you buy? I'm planning to get Roget's International Thesaurus, 7th Edition, as soon as I get back to the United States. Hmm. I think the price went up by a few dollars since I last checked. Still not bad.


I have Roget's International Thesaurus 7th edition edited by Barbara Ann Kipfer, Ph.D.

It's a bit different from what SWB posted but close enough.


Thanks both of you. I checked out the reviews for this edition. It seems like the key to following the exercises as written is to have a thesaurus that is "thematically indexed".

I should have looked closer at the exercises before I bought the thesaurus I have. It seems like the A-Z format that I have sacrifices available synonyms for more entries.

Several of the reviews for the Roget's International Thesaurus mention the 4th edition as a favorite. I was able to get a hardback 4th from Paperback Swap, so all is not lost. (And a friend found the section in the WWS instructor pages that mention thesaurus drills, which recommend Roget's International Thesaurus. I just didn't look closely enough, or had forgotten what I read back when I printed this out.)

Thanks all.

#120 Amy in CO

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:23 PM

Further down in the thread, I am not sure how far, it says that the bigger ALL wouldn't be available until October (I think it was October).



Ah. I was fairly certain that in the ALL thread, SWB said that if we wanted more than the 7 weeks provided, to e-mail and it would be available. Bummer.
Sorry that you guys have had such problems with the e-mail system. I bet it's pretty loaded lately! Lol.



#121 AnnetteW

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:53 PM

Susan and Moderator,

I just want to say what an awesome job your executive assistant, Patricia Kirkland, has been doing with catching up with the requests for both the extra weeks for WWS and the ALL.

I am thankful for her very thorough efforts to make sure that no one gets missed. My e-mail address had apparently filtered her out initially but she managed to succeed in the end by getting my request to me.

This is a truly awesome program. I wish it would have been possible for it to have been published years ago and save me from years of stumbling around and working with products that cost a lot and took up a lot of time.

Thanks so much and hope you have a wonderful weekend!

Annette

#122 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 05:23 PM

Susan and Moderator,

I just want to say what an awesome job your executive assistant, Patricia Kirkland, has been doing with catching up with the requests for both the extra weeks for WWS and the ALL.

I am thankful for her very thorough efforts to make sure that no one gets missed. My e-mail address had apparently filtered her out initially but she managed to succeed in the end by getting my request to me.

This is a truly awesome program. I wish it would have been possible for it to have been published years ago and save me from years of stumbling around and working with products that cost a lot and took up a lot of time.

Thanks so much and hope you have a wonderful weekend!

Annette



:iagree:

#123 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 05:44 AM

Someone in a thread below pointed out that they couldn't find the space and distance words...and then I realized that those are in an appendix at the end of the book. Here they are...



SPACE AND DISTANCE WORDS/PHRASES
For descriptions

(Orientation)
To (on) the right (side)
To (on) the left (side)
Above
Below
To/From the north/south/east/west of
On the one side/On the other side
In/at the middle of
In/at the center of
Around

(Close relationship)
By
Near (by)
Close (by)
Next to
At

(Distant relationship)
At a (in the) distance
Off
Far off (away)
Around (round)
About
Beyond
Further (farther)
Further away (on)
Until

(Vertical relationship)
Above
Below
Beyond
On
Up/upon
Over
Under
Up from (to/into)
Down
Down from (on/to/into)
Higher/higher than
Lower/lower than

(Horizontal relationship)
Back
Forward
Past
Before
In front of
From
Across
On (to/onto/on and on)
Into
Out (of)
By
Between
On either side (of)
Opposite

(Interlocking relationship)
Through
Into
In
Inside
With
Within
Without
Outside (outside of/outside)
Filled with
Around
Surrounding/surrounded by

(Indeterminate relationship)
Where
There
With
Without
A distance from
On the one/other side
On and on

#124 Roxy Roller

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 05:00 PM

Thank you for your quick response, Susan. I did email your assistant yesterday to ask if she knew where the list was, so she may contact you.

We are loving WWS! It is hard work for my DD, but her writing is improving every week, so it is worth it!

#125 AnnaG

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 12:44 PM

Hi SWB,
Do you recommend that parents show kids the narration rubric before the kids write a narration? Or should the rubrics remain a behind-the-scenes tool just for the parent?
Thanks!

#126 dmrranch

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 05:40 PM

Renee, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. IMO these are the basic skills of organization and research that MUST be in place before students can move on to more advanced expository writing. This series is motivated in part by my sense of what my college freshmen missed in high school composition. Ideally, yes, students will move on to do at least SOME rhetoric before graduating, but if I had a freshman student who'd completed the skills WWS covers, I'd certainly feel they were adequately prepared for freshman comp.

I'm actually making DS3 (ninth grade) work through the lessons as I finish them, in part because this is a more organized and sequential version of the writing across the curriculum we did in grades 5-8.

SWB


My 15 dd could graduate in 3 years depending on how we wrap things up. (She is on the younger end.) So, if we don't make it to WWS4 because it hasn't come out at that point, will she still be well prepared? (In other words we could finish WWS3 according to projected release dates.)

I believe she will be able to finish WWS 1 before the projected release date of WWS2. So, we could practice what she has learned or supplement during that time.

We've been using CW Homer and she is seeking something more self-directed. I chose CW because when I looked at high school rhetoric writing in TWTM, I was afraid I would miss some of her previous gaps if I didn't have some sort of guide to follow. I bought the Complete Writer but I still needed more guidance for the transition from logic to rhetoric. However, there has been a learning curve in understanding how the course is laid out with CW. I will say that going through what I have with CW has helped me to better understand how I am to have my child write in high school following TWTM recommendations.

Having said that, at first glance, WWS looks like something I could definitely take and work through at my daughter's pace. I am thinking I could then move on and do something else if WWS2 is not ready yet by practicing what she has learned and taking it to the next level with recommendations in TWTM. Then, when WWS 2 does come out I will do the same thing again.

ETA: I have taken the plunge while waiting for advice and we started WWS1. My daughter is pretty perceptive and on Day 1 she picked up on the fact that the the Pepins went to visit Mr. Bradshaw to see if he had toads in his shoes...not to seek his help. I disagreed with her at first after looking at the suggestions in the TG. However, when I checked the story I realized she was right :) She was able to summarize with three sentences but needed grammatical help and to remove a comma splice.

Background: Grammar and writing have been her weak areas and we didn't start homeschooling until we pulled her from public school in 4th grade. She passed the WWE4 test and has been exposed to writing essays in a British Literature class at a co-op. She was told she has great ideas and just needs to practice getting those ideas into words and then onto paper, especially in reference to order. We will be using ALL. She has had speech issues and I know that has affected her writing also.

Thank you!

Edited by dmrranch, 25 September 2011 - 04:18 PM.


#127 mothergooseof4

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 08:22 PM

My 6th grade ds has had little formal writing instruction. We have started IEW SWI, but have only completed units 1 and 2. I like it, but also would like something more open and go. So, I am looking at WWS and trying to decide between it and IEW.

Ds can do a summary paragraph on our reading, but has no instruction on the technicals of paragraph formation such as topic and supporting sentences. When is this covered in WWS? Or, would he benefit from a workbook teaching this specific skill before we consider WWS?

Any other information in comparison to IEW would be appreciated.

Thanks!

#128 Heather in VA

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 01:31 PM

Mrs. Bauer,

I know that you said you would be putting out a scope and sequence for the full series at some point but I'm currently trying to get an idea of how these skills taught in WWS will compare with Classical Writing (or the progymnamasta approach) that have been using. My oldest is a junior and has gone through the full series up through Plutarch. (your program wasn't available for her). What I liked the most about the approach is that is concentrated on helping the student with good content rather than being fully focuses on the structure. For example, it worked with the student on what kind of information really is good supporting information, how to develop a good argument etc. All too often when I'd read her papers (before studying this in CW) she would right a nicely organized paper, good mechanics, good structure, but her information was vague and weak - kind of like reading a political speech - lots of words that said nothing. I found that the combination of content focus in Classical Writing and her Rhetoric studies really helped this. How does WWS address this type of problem? Is this something that is left to the Rhetoric studies? If it is addressed within WWS, in which level do you expect it to be taught?

Thank you for your time,

Heather
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#129 SaDonna

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 12:05 PM

I would love to hear more about that as well Heather.

#130 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:16 AM

Hi SWB,
Do you recommend that parents show kids the narration rubric before the kids write a narration? Or should the rubrics remain a behind-the-scenes tool just for the parent?
Thanks!


Anna,

The rubrics just assemble in one place all of the instructions the student has been given throughout the lesson. I wouldn't show the rubric to the student because it makes it too easy for them to NOT read the directions carefully and follow them closely--and that's one of the lessons WWS is intended to teach.

SWB

#131 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:31 AM

My 15 dd could graduate in 3 years depending on how we wrap things up. (She is on the younger end.) So, if we don't make it to WWS4 because it hasn't come out at that point, will she still be well prepared? (In other words we could finish WWS3 according to projected release dates.)


I know that you said you would be putting out a scope and sequence for the full series at some point but I'm currently trying to get an idea of how these skills taught in WWS will compare with Classical Writing (or the progymnamasta approach) that have been using. My oldest is a junior and has gone through the full series up through Plutarch. (your program wasn't available for her). What I liked the most about the approach is that is concentrated on helping the student with good content rather than being fully focuses on the structure. For example, it worked with the student on what kind of information really is good supporting information, how to develop a good argument etc. All too often when I'd read her papers (before studying this in CW) she would right a nicely organized paper, good mechanics, good structure, but her information was vague and weak - kind of like reading a political speech - lots of words that said nothing. I found that the combination of content focus in Classical Writing and her Rhetoric studies really helped this. How does WWS address this type of problem? Is this something that is left to the Rhetoric studies? If it is addressed within WWS, in which level do you expect it to be taught?


I THINK that both of these questions are asking for a scope and sequence. If not, let me know. :-)

I'm adding here a link to a PDF of the topics that I intend to cover in Levels 1-4. In addition, the series will cover outlining (up to 3 levels) and rewriting of sentences to improve style, as in the current WWS1; each level also asks the student to research and write independently on self-chosen topics. (This is at the end of WWS1, which I know you don't have yet--the full PDF is having the final changes made to it. I'll keep you posted on availability.)

I'm sure you'll have questions about the link, so post away.

http://www.welltrain...oi-expanded.pdf

#132 Heather in VA

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 10:57 AM

I THINK that both of these questions are asking for a scope and sequence. If not, let me know. :-)

I'm adding here a link to a PDF of the topics that I intend to cover in Levels 1-4. In addition, the series will cover outlining (up to 3 levels) and rewriting of sentences to improve style, as in the current WWS1; each level also asks the student to research and write independently on self-chosen topics. (This is at the end of WWS1, which I know you don't have yet--the full PDF is having the final changes made to it. I'll keep you posted on availability.)

I'm sure you'll have questions about the link, so post away.

http://www.welltrain...oi-expanded.pdf


So it sounds like WWS will cover the expository essay but not begin the argumentative/persuasive essay. Is that accurate?

Thanks
Heather

#133 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:05 AM

Yes, Heather, that's correct.

SWB

#134 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:19 AM

SWB - Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#135 Zoo Keeper

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:55 AM

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for that link. :)

Edited by Zoo Keeper, 28 September 2011 - 04:24 PM.


#136 hollyhock

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:10 PM

Thank you! That is very helpful!

I am trying to get this all straight in my mind: middle grades students (5th-6th grade) should be writing narrative summaries, outlines and literary essays. Am I assuming correctly that the different types of narration, description and explanation outlined in your S&S fall under the category of the narrative summary?

Just making sure. Thank you! :)

#137 5LittleMonkeys

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:35 PM

Thank you SWB for the PDF link. It was very helpful.

I know you touched before on using this with an older child but I'm wondering if you could share with those of us using this with 7th, 8th or 9th graders, what we should be doing in addition to WWS in order to make sure our students are ready for college level writing since they will not get the full benefit of the high school levels of your writing program.

My own dc will not finish WWS 4 until the end of her 11th grade year, and it concerns me that she would only have one year to work on persuasive\argumentative essays before entering college.

TIA

#138 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:23 PM

I know you touched before on using this with an older child but I'm wondering if you could share with those of us using this with 7th, 8th or 9th graders, what we should be doing in addition to WWS in order to make sure our students are ready for college level writing since they will not get the full benefit of the high school levels of your writing program.

My own dc will not finish WWS 4 until the end of her 11th grade year, and it concerns me that she would only have one year to work on persuasive\argumentative essays before entering college.

TIA


Tia,

While it would be ideal for students to have done two or more years of persuasive writing before entering college, I can tell you from experience that most of them haven't, and don't....and that your daughter will be as well-prepared as 90% of her class, and better-prepared than 60%.

If you want to boost her percentage :) here's what I would suggest.

In eleventh grade, have her start working through the Oxford Guide to Writing once per week in addition to WWS.

In twelfth grade, have her work on the Oxford Guide to Writing 3x per week. If you want her EXTRAORDINARILY well prepared, add in THEY SAY, I SAY: THE MOVES THAT MATTER IN ACADEMIC WRITING, which is one of the clearest and most useful guides I've found to the peculiarities of university-level composition. (I'll be adding it into future editions of TWTM.)

SWB

#139 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:25 PM

Thank you! That is very helpful!

I am trying to get this all straight in my mind: middle grades students (5th-6th grade) should be writing narrative summaries, outlines and literary essays. Am I assuming correctly that the different types of narration, description and explanation outlined in your S&S fall under the category of the narrative summary?

Just making sure. Thank you! :)


They go well beyond narrative summaries; what the S&S outlines is what, ideally, the different forms that the student would encounter, outline, and understand while working through history, science, and literature.

Ideally: which means that many students don't. So WWS makes those forms, and the skills needed to compose them, explicit.

umm...that may not be terribly clear? let me know if it isn't. It's kind of late here and my dh had ankle surgery last week, which means I've carried a whole lot of trays this week. :tongue_smilie:

#140 mothergooseof4

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:29 PM

Hi Susan,
Just wondering if you might have missed my question in post #129? I understand if you do not want to get into comparing WWS to IEW, but if you could just answer my question about using a book on paragraph writing, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

#141 5LittleMonkeys

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 07:50 PM

While it would be ideal for students to have done two or more years of persuasive writing before entering college, I can tell you from experience that most of them haven't, and don't....and that your daughter will be as well-prepared as 90% of her class, and better-prepared than 60%.

If you want to boost her percentage :) here's what I would suggest.

In eleventh grade, have her start working through the Oxford Guide to Writing once per week in addition to WWS.

In twelfth grade, have her work on the Oxford Guide to Writing 3x per week. If you want her EXTRAORDINARILY well prepared, add in THEY SAY, I SAY: THE MOVES THAT MATTER IN ACADEMIC WRITING, which is one of the clearest and most useful guides I've found to the peculiarities of university-level composition. (I'll be adding it into future editions of TWTM.)

SWB


Thank you so much! I'm sold.:D

#142 hollyhock

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:33 PM

They go well beyond narrative summaries; what the S&S outlines is what, ideally, the different forms that the student would encounter, outline, and understand while working through history, science, and literature.

Ideally: which means that many students don't. So WWS makes those forms, and the skills needed to compose them, explicit.

umm...that may not be terribly clear? let me know if it isn't. It's kind of late here and my dh had ankle surgery last week, which means I've carried a whole lot of trays this week. :tongue_smilie:


Ah. So I don't necessarily limit the exposure to the narrative summaries. I should be looking for these types of forms for all of the writing assignments. Makes sense!

#143 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:38 PM

SWB - Which Oxford Guide are you referring to?

http://www.amazon.co...ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

or

http://www.amazon.co...ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

Thanks,

Capt Uhura

#144 Colleen in NS

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:06 PM

I'm adding here a link to a PDF of the topics that I intend to cover in Levels 1-4.


Wow, thank you so much!! I'm blown away by all the thought that went into that (and will come out of it from future WWS students)!

In eleventh grade, have her start working through the Oxford Guide to Writing once per week in addition to WWS.

In twelfth grade, have her work on the Oxford Guide to Writing 3x per week. If you want her EXTRAORDINARILY well prepared, add in THEY SAY, I SAY: THE MOVES THAT MATTER IN ACADEMIC WRITING, which is one of the clearest and most useful guides I've found to the peculiarities of university-level composition.


This is really helpful to me for my grade 8 student, too. I had doubts a few months ago about how to guide him this year, since he already knows how to outline, and knew very basically how to rewrite from an outline. I just didn't know how to help him improve those rewrites. But WWS, in just a few short weeks, has given him some more concrete skills (that I didn't know about) to work on. Today he wrote a multi-paragraph composition that just blew me away, and I know it's because of the precision in WWS. So, as long as it keeps being published, he will keep going through it. So it's helpful to know of some options (and why) when he reaches the end of WWS.

Speaking of precision - when I was in high school, and was told to "write an essay/book report" on a book or a topic; I never, ever knew how to go about this. I used to think, "I wish the teacher would just give me a list of thought-provoking questions that I could answer in writing. I can do that; I can answer questions. But I don't know what questions to ask myself, so I have to bluff my way through this assignment somehow." But WWS does this - it asks the questions, and it shows the student how to come up with questions in order to come up with and think about specific topics. I am so thankful.

Question: Could/should A Rulebook for Arguments figure into a possible grade 11-12 plan after WWS? Why or why not?

2) AVAILABILITY OF FUTURE LEVELS. I'm on schedule to finish one level per year. What this means is that future levels will be available in September of each succeeding year...as long as you're willing to work from manuscript/PDF copies that we send you by email until the printed books are finished.

Again, this is an invaluable part of the process for me--getting feedback from parents before the final books are printed. I had originally intended to make WWS available starting in the fall of 2012, and the Feb. 2012 pub date was so that we'd have copies for the spring curriculum fairs. However, the beta testers were SO helpful that I'd like to continue to put the program out a year earlier for feedback. The more parents and kids who use this, the more effectively I can fine-tune it.

Drawbacks: You get manuscript/PDF copies and they're not as pretty. And you have to print them yourself.

Advantages: It's free.


If I am understanding this correctly, you will be looking for beta-testers every September, right? I'll be looking for your announcement each year - your materials just make SO MUCH sense to my kids and me! :D

I'll be talking up WWS next week when my classical Moms support group meets to listen to your middle grades writing lecture. If anyone is interested (most of their kids are working on WWE still), I'll be sure to point them to this thread and the scope and sequence link.

#145 Janice in NJ

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 05:38 AM

New Oxford Guide is listed in TWTM; see chapter 24.

http://www.amazon.co...ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

Peace,
Janice

Edited by Janice in NJ, 29 September 2011 - 05:47 AM.


#146 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:47 AM

Yes, New Oxford Guide was the one I had in mind. LOVE this book.

SWB

#147 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:50 AM

Question: Could/should A Rulebook for Arguments figure into a possible grade 11-12 plan after WWS? Why or why not?


It could, but the New Oxford Guide covers much of the same material in more detail. I like the Rulebook for Arguments as an intro to rhetoric at the beginning of the stage--it's a gentle way to move into a new way of thinking--but once you're in the 11th and 12th grade years you can go straight to the New Oxford Guide and save time.

SWB

#148 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 08:50 AM

Thanks SWB and Janice in NJ!

#149 Colleen in NS

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:56 AM

It could, but the New Oxford Guide covers much of the same material in more detail. I like the Rulebook for Arguments as an intro to rhetoric at the beginning of the stage--it's a gentle way to move into a new way of thinking--but once you're in the 11th and 12th grade years you can go straight to the New Oxford Guide and save time.

SWB


Thanks - very helpful.

#150 Janice in NJ

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:41 PM

May I make a suggestion about Kane?

If you pick up a copy and it doesn't immediately resonate with you, don't set it aside without flipping ahead to Part III. (Parts I & II required larger blocks of time that I had available when I first bought the book, so I put it aside and didn't come back to it for years. Big mistake.) Part III covers paragraphs and is much easier to handle with smaller chunks of time. I would recommend that you re-read chapter 24 of TWTM; grab Kane, a spiral notebook, and a pencil; and just begin. If you are teaching middle schoolers and are using traditional materials, chances are your kids are attempting to write expository paragraphs; you can probably put your new knowledge to work immediately. Continue on with the sections on the sentence and diction. Just work through the book on your own. If your experience mirrors mine, this book will help you become a better teacher.

Peace,
Janice

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