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Answering questions about Writing With Skill

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#51 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 03:04 PM

Susan, I emailed Pattie a couple of weeks ago for pdf pages of the WWS and she emailed me what looked like more than the first 5 weeks, are those pages the same as the ones listed on your website?



It sounds as if you might be referring to the first five weeks of ALL.

Also, I've emailed her using [email protected] address and it took several days to get a response (perhaps she's flooded with questions), is the executiveassistant address a better one to use?


Yes, if you're asking about WWS or ALL, please DO use the [email protected] address!

#52 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 03:12 PM

I learned from you in Valley Forge that I was expecting too much from my kids in terms of writing (the 2nd & 5th graders were doing WWE as well as narrating every day for reading AND twice each week for history), which explains sooooo much about our '10/'11 school year. So now I'm paranoid about WWS and narrations in general. My 6th & 8th grader are doing WWS, and I need to know how to correct their mistakes. Last year with my 5th grader, I'd say, "You have 4 mistakes on the first line," and leave him to figure out his spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes for himself. This sometimes took forever, and I'd get to the point where I'd say, "It's 1 spelling error, 1 grammar, and 2 punctuation." Is that the right approach, or should I point out his mistakes to him?


This is when I say, "What's your gut feeling?"

None of these approaches are wrong. Which one you pick depends on your kid's tolerance for frustration. It's important to remember that, although correct mechanics are important, they grow more important as students become more advanced. It's vital that you not frustrate an advancing writer by turning the writing session into an extended struggle with mechanics.

So what's your gut feeling?

SWB

#53 tenoraddict

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 03:31 PM

This is when I say, "What's your gut feeling?"

None of these approaches are wrong. Which one you pick depends on your kid's tolerance for frustration. It's important to remember that, although correct mechanics are important, they grow more important as students become more advanced. It's vital that you not frustrate an advancing writer by turning the writing session into an extended struggle with mechanics.

So what's your gut feeling?

SWB

My gut feeling is usually, "Do whatever Susan says to do," so your nebulous answer is not particularly helpful. :D With only 2 years of homeschooling my 3 "real" sons under my belt, I tend to err on the side of legalism (stemming from fear that I'll completely screw the boys up and they'll end up living with me forever - or under a bridge, or in a shack by the river). So here's what Susan says: Don't frustrate your son. I will now go off to repeat that ad infinitum while eating chocolate, until it becomes my gut feeling. Thanks, Susan. :)
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#54 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 06:41 PM

Fair enough.

We all think that our kids will end up under bridges and it will be our fault.

Just so you know. :)

SWB

#55 shari99

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 07:01 PM

Susan,
I see what wapiti means about the font size. Although it looks great on my screen, when printed it was TINY.
This curriculum looks wonderful, aside from the tiny-ness of the print! I printed it out to let my DD try the first exercise. I imagine she will want to read all the books after enjoying the excerpts!

Thanks, and thanks also because this board is such a blessing!

Shari

Edited by shari99, 21 August 2011 - 07:05 PM.


#56 Free Indeed

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 08:05 PM

We all think that our kids will end up under bridges and it will be our fault.

Just so you know. :)

SWB


:lol: ;)

#57 tenoraddict

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 08:38 PM

We all think that our kids will end up under bridges and it will be our fault.

Just so you know. :)

SWB

When you told us that your 9th grader was sure that you had never covered nouns with him, and that you were relieved when that first college acceptance letter came...well, I'm surprised that my own sigh of relief wasn't audible. I truly felt like I was releasing a burden. Knowing that you - the PhD curriculum-writing guru that you are - have some of the same battles, concerns and (dare I say?) fears that I do makes me feel closer to normal and less fearful. Thanks for being honest with us. :001_smile:

I'm a very round hole with some square peg sons, and "Don't frustrate your son," is a good mantra for me. I know I'll be repeating it frequently this year.

#58 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:20 PM

Susan,
I see what wapiti means about the font size. Although it looks great on my screen, when printed it was TINY.
This curriculum looks wonderful, aside from the tiny-ness of the print! I printed it out to let my DD try the first exercise. I imagine she will want to read all the books after enjoying the excerpts!

Thanks, and thanks also because this board is such a blessing!

Shari


I printed it from an iMac and the font was just fine. IT was similar to any other workbook that I have.

#59 lovemy9kids

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 09:30 PM

Fair enough.

We all think that our kids will end up under bridges and it will be our fault.

Just so you know. :)

SWB



Glad I'm not the only one :lol:

#60 toawh

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:12 PM

Is it that each grade is a book of its own or are grades 5-8 in one volume like WWE? Also is it set up similarly with a teacher book and a student workbooks?

#61 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 05:46 AM

Each book is a book of it's own. WWS is level 5. THere is a teach and a student book. ALL is level 5 as well and there is a teacher and student book.

#62 Justin

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 09:08 AM

Hello all,
Justin here from Peace Hill Press. Susan may have already mentioned this, but if you're just catching up with this thread:

Anyone who orders Writing With Skill (the print version, not the PDF) from Peace Hill Press before December 1 receives a 10% discount plus free shipping. Call 1.877.322.3445 or email info AT peacehillpress DOT com with your shipping & billing info & phone number. We'll request your payment information when the book is ready to ship.

#63 onaclairadeluna

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:56 AM

I have a question for Susan.

First off, thank you so much for this. It's wonderful.

I just started with my gifted dyslexic 8th grader. It is a great fit for him because the assignments are short and interesting. Narrations are hard for him, the good kind of hard. However we got to week 2 and he thought it was very easy. He went straight from day one to day two. Completed the outline and looked for the next step (he was finished:001_smile:)

I am reluctant to skip anything as he frustrates easy with writing, however he seems to need more challenge with outlining. What would you do? I tried to look ahead for a two level outline but couldn't find it in the first several weeks. I am afraid to skip something important. I could continue to have him do two lessons in a day (when they are easy). He seemed fine with that.

#64 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 11:18 AM

If you want two-level outlining help, look at WTM2009 edition. I think two-levels were at the end of WWS. If it were me, I'd probably just do 2 lessons/day. He might find later passages are more difficult. But I"m not a big skipper.

#65 onaclairadeluna

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:08 PM

Thanks. Yeah, that's my feeling too. We did a little bit of two level outlining (from WTM 2009) which is probably why he's having such an easy time. And when I say a bit. I mean a little bit. Like maybe 4 times. I was having him outline sections of his history and science texts. I changed my mind and decided that the questions in the book were better for him.

I have done a considerable amount of skipping around with this child in other subjects (to no detriment) but I think in this area it would probably benefit us to stick with the plan.

#66 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:10 PM

Sometimes I find if they are being challenged in one area, it's nice to have another area that's comfortable. By all means, if he's crying and frustrated, skip, skip, skip....bit if it's comfortable, let it go to automaticity....or keep everything else but just do 2-levels instead for the outlining.

#67 mom&nana

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:24 PM

Sometimes I find if they are being challenged in one area, it's nice to have another area that's comfortable. By all means, if he's crying and frustrated, skip, skip, skip....bit if it's comfortable, let it go to automaticity....or keep everything else but just do 2-levels instead for the outlining.


:iagree: My 7th grade dd is finding the outlining extremely easy as well. But I look at it as a nice boost to her confidence, since she definitely finds written narrations a bit harder. I think it's a good balance and I'm ok with that for now.

#68 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 01:09 PM

Thanks. Yeah, that's my feeling too. We did a little bit of two level outlining (from WTM 2009) which is probably why he's having such an easy time. And when I say a bit. I mean a little bit. Like maybe 4 times. I was having him outline sections of his history and science texts. I changed my mind and decided that the questions in the book were better for him.

I have done a considerable amount of skipping around with this child in other subjects (to no detriment) but I think in this area it would probably benefit us to stick with the plan.


I agree; I'd continue on, even if it seems easy, and just allow the student to progress more quickly.

The outlining in Level 1 remains one-level until the last few weeks, BUT the student outlines a number of different KINDS of writing, and those outlines serve as the basis for understanding how to write those same forms...so I wouldn't skip.

SWB

#69 Hedgehog

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:06 PM

:lurk5:

#70 [email protected]

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 03:39 PM

1.what long term benefits for outlining in highschool and in university
2.are narrations in history and science basically written summaries
3. if i do wws do still make my gr.7 son do one weekly outline/narration in history and one weekly narration /outline in sciene
4.isthe written narration i do in history based on the outline he completes first from what he has read
thanks
hoping the wws will help me with all my confusion in logic stage science/history writing

#71 workingmom

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 03:02 AM

Susan would you be so kind to answer this situation:

DS is in 5th and is doing SOTW 4 and their outlining is different than what we've covered so far in WWE. Are the examples of outlines in SOTW 4 (Ch 1-4) considered more advanced than one level and if so how do I pull together teaching outlining from WWE and doing the outlines in SOTW? For example although he can answer the questions to get it into the outlines for the history chapters should I still stick with "one level" outlines for science and just have him give a roman numeral with the subject for each paragraph in the science reading?

Once he learns outlining should he do that in place of narrations or continue narrations until he gets to actually rewriting from outlines which may be next year?

Thanks,

#72 [email protected]

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 05:52 AM

i really am happy to discover you've published wws to help me with outlining and lit criticism, bio sketches, written narrations etc.(which i was at loss how to teach)however im wondering what to do as my gr.7 son has been doing since k lucy calkins' writing workshop unit of studies with some other kids i teach. i planned for him to do this yr the narrative, poetry, memoir, essay and fiction units.As you know the workshop model is time consumimg as it last 60-90 minutes a session. we started the writing workhop from a young age as he showed an interst and aptitude in writing.now i am rethinking what to do for next yr. do you recommend i do Writing Workhop 3x week and WWS the other two. Writing workshop has to be taught at least 3x does the same apply to wws. if so should i have him do the 6th writing class on a weekend so we get in 3x a week for each program
thank you for taking the time out to help me.
mariss

#73 Nakia

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 07:59 PM

Hi! I have emailed Ms. Worth twice and haven't gotten the samples yet. I'm sure she is really swamped, but I was just wondering about how long it takes to get them after you submit a request.

Thanks!

#74 susie in tx

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 08:18 PM

I'm pretty sure that you won't receive a response for some time now that the hurricane has been through the area where the Peace Hill Press office is located. The picture I saw showed a tree on top of the electrical wires connecting PHP with the rest of the world.

Edited by susie in tx, 28 August 2011 - 08:37 PM.
grammar ugh!


#75 Nakia

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 09:04 PM

I'm pretty sure that you won't receive a response for some time now that the hurricane has been through the area where the Peace Hill Press office is located. The picture I saw showed a tree on top of the electrical wires connecting PHP with the rest of the world.


Oh no!! I had no idea where PHP was located. I feel like a dork.

I do appreciate you letting me know. I hope everyone is okay.

#76 onaclairadeluna

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 12:36 PM

I do hope everyone is ok and every thing is ok too.

I have another question for when you are back online. Or for anyone else who might have suggestions.

I went ahead and got the audio lectures, which by the way are amazing. The middle school lecture talks about outlining in complete sentences however, the excerpts in WWS seem to lend themselves to one word descriptions. How does one judge which is appropriate? Is it just a matter of complexity of the text? More complicated texts will have sentence outlines and simpler texts are better outlined with words and phrases. Or does it depend on the place in the outline? The first level is more brief than subsequent levels. Or does it depend on the style of the person making the outline?

Thanks!

#77 blessed3x

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 01:34 PM

can ALL be used with WWE level 4



I have looked and looked, but what is ALL? :confused:

#78 mom&nana

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 02:15 PM

I have looked and looked, but what is ALL? :confused:


SWB's new grammar program for 5th grade and up, Advanced Language Lessons.

#79 blessed3x

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 03:46 PM

SWB's new grammar program for 5th grade and up, Advanced Language Lessons.



Thank you! Now off to find out about it.... :D

#80 Country Girl

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 06:56 PM

Does there happen to be a (tentative) scope and sequence for the entire program somewhere? I'm such a big picture person, and would really like to know where we will end up after using all 4 levels. I'm also particularly curious to know how the program addresses the problem of helping kids come up with something to say. Or does WWS (all levels) stick with having kids write summaries/reports from source material and wait on writing original material in high school?

Thanks!

#81 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 07:16 PM

By the end of WWS5, DC will be writing beginning literary essays.

#82 mom&nana

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:36 PM

By the end of WWS5, DC will be writing beginning literary essays.


I just want to clarify what you mean. Is WWS going to have 5+ levels or do you mean WWS Level 1 which is considered Level 5 of The Complete Writer (that's what my sample says anyway)? Thanks!

#83 Country Girl

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:46 PM

I just want to clarify what you mean. Is WWS going to have 5+ levels or do you mean WWS Level 1 which is considered Level 5 of The Complete Writer (that's what my sample says anyway)? Thanks!


Hmmm, I'm a bit confused too. I think there are just 4 levels for WWS (but I could easily be wrong), so I think this means WWS Level 1. Also, beginning literary essays are listed in the TOC sample for the last few weeks of WWS 1 and I'm guessing will go well beyond this by the end of the entire WWS program.

#84 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:50 PM

LOL I'd have to check the pdf. Originally it was WWS5 b/c it was level 5 in the series WWE1-4, WWS5-8. Maybe that has changed. At any rate, I'm referring to the FIRST book in the WWS series which will be available in the fall 2011. :lol:

#85 Country Girl

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 08:51 PM

LOL I'd have to check the pdf. Originally it was WWS5 b/c it was level 5 in the series WWE1-4, WWS5-8. Maybe that has changed. At any rate, I'm referring to the FIRST book in the WWS series which will be available in the fall 2011. :lol:


Thanks for the clarification!:D
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#86 [email protected]

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 12:15 AM

my son will be doing wws with a friend who wilkl be comin over twice a week.so i was wondering if you double up lessons

#87 mom&nana

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 07:54 AM

Thanks for clarifying Capt. Uhura.

#88 Janice in NJ

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 02:12 PM

Hi Country Girl!

Figuring out what to say: See the Instructor's Sample pg viii - section labeled Topoi. Helping a student build a toolbox of concrete ways to generate ideas is a large part of classical rhetoric. The whole process is really not as loosy-goosy as most programs would lead you to believe. "Brainstorm some ideas!" didn't always help my kids very much. ;)

Classical Rhetoric has a much more direct path to idea generation.

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey

#89 Sebastian (a lady)

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 06:16 PM

my son will be doing wws with a friend who wilkl be comin over twice a week.so i was wondering if you double up lessons


Yes, definitely. In fact I had my older son do about 4 lessons today because he'd gotten behind.

Well, definitely in the earlier weeks. There are many lessons that flow well together. For example, finding a main idea and then outlining a passage. You might not want to have them do two lessons at once if it is writing a paragraph and something else (ex. thesaurus use).

Of course you could do one lesson that day and send the other home as homework.

#90 Country Girl

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 06:48 PM

Hi Country Girl!

Figuring out what to say: See the Instructor's Sample pg viii - section labeled Topoi. Helping a student build a toolbox of concrete ways to generate ideas is a large part of classical rhetoric. The whole process is really not as loosy-goosy as most programs would lead you to believe. "Brainstorm some ideas!" didn't always help my kids very much. ;)

Classical Rhetoric has a much more direct path to idea generation.

Peace,
Janice

Enjoy your little people
Enjoy your journey


Thanks for pointing this out for me. I printed the student sample but only looked at the teacher's sample online. I should have known better, my brain doesn't process the things I read from the computer very well..... I need a hardcopy in front of me.

"Brainstorm some ideas" doesn't work for my kiddos either! I've been using LTOW with ds for about a year now, and really appreicate how it specifically addresses the issue of what to say. But I've had to really slow it down and tweak it for him, and I think he might benefit more from WWS. WWS seems to be even more incremental and explicit in instruction, which I think he'd greatly benefit from.

#91 Colleen in NS

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 04:25 PM

OK, I just got back last night from a road trip that began when this thread was posted, and am now combing through it. I have a copy of the first 20 weeks of WWS, but haven't had a chance to really go through it yet. Am planning on seeing if my dd10 can do it this fall, or if I should remain in WWE 4 skills for awhile longer. But anyway, just wanted to say that this thread is EXTREMELY helpful to me. I'll need to come back to it later to let any questions bubble up (some occurred to me while reading, but I am in road-trip recovery mode - you know, laundry/groceries/unpacking/chilling/baking cookies). This also has me reconsidering what my ds13 might need. I haven't felt entirely comfortable this past year with how I have been teaching him.

Thanks again, SWB, for all you do for us!!!!!!

#92 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 06:06 PM

Does there happen to be a (tentative) scope and sequence for the entire program somewhere? I'm such a big picture person, and would really like to know where we will end up after using all 4 levels. I'm also particularly curious to know how the program addresses the problem of helping kids come up with something to say. Or does WWS (all levels) stick with having kids write summaries/reports from source material and wait on writing original material in high school?

Thanks!


Hi, people!

Look, we have power! (kind of--the office is still on generator, but THANK GOODNESS the house is up and running.) Will do my best to catch up here.

I do have a full scope and sequence (at least a tentative one) for all four years, but I need to reduce it to a form that other people will be able to read. :tongue_smilie: On my to-do list, promise.

The teaching of the topoi will lead students, by the last year, to doing original research and composition. Even the first level ends with an independent project--topics are suggested for the teacher, in case the kid comes up empty, but by the end of the first year students should already have tools to find topics.

SWB

#93 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 06:08 PM

I went ahead and got the audio lectures, which by the way are amazing. The middle school lecture talks about outlining in complete sentences however, the excerpts in WWS seem to lend themselves to one word descriptions. How does one judge which is appropriate? Is it just a matter of complexity of the text? More complicated texts will have sentence outlines and simpler texts are better outlined with words and phrases. Or does it depend on the place in the outline? The first level is more brief than subsequent levels. Or does it depend on the style of the person making the outline?

Thanks!


The biggest factor in deciding whether or not to do full sentences is the content of the original. Narration and exposition tend to lend themselves to full sentences. Descriptions tend to call for one-word outlines. There are several lessons in WWS1 on this.

SWB

p.s. by the way, WWS1 is the same as "The Complete Writer, Level 5"-- Writing With Ease is four levels, Writing With Skill is four...and far, far down the road, Writing With Style will be four.

s

#94 TC5

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:03 PM

OK, I just got back last night from a road trip that began when this thread was posted, and am now combing through it. I have a copy of the first 20 weeks of WWS, but haven't had a chance to really go through it yet. Am planning on seeing if my dd10 can do it this fall, or if I should remain in WWE 4 skills for awhile longer. But anyway, just wanted to say that this thread is EXTREMELY helpful to me. I'll need to come back to it later to let any questions bubble up (some occurred to me while reading, but I am in road-trip recovery mode - you know, laundry/groceries/unpacking/chilling/baking cookies). This also has me reconsidering what my ds13 might need. I haven't felt entirely comfortable this past year with how I have been teaching him.

Thanks again, SWB, for all you do for us!!!!!!


Hi, Colleen! I was wondering why I wasn't seeing you on this writing thread! I figured it was because your son is older and you didn't need WWS. I'd forgotten you have a daughter just the right age. I hope you had a great trip and recover quickly. :tongue_smilie:

#95 TC5

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:09 PM

p.s. by the way, WWS1 is the same as "The Complete Writer, Level 5"-- Writing With Ease is four levels, Writing With Skill is four...and far, far down the road, Writing With Style will be four.


I was trying to resist getting into this, but you did mention it :D

Will Writing With Style be as vital to rhetoric stage as Writing With Skill is to logic stage? Or is it more like an elective for students interested in creative writing or those needing more help?

And how are we going to avoid being confused with WWS and WWS? WWSk and WWSt? I guess WWSkill and WWStyle isn't too hard to type, but my fingers are lazy sometimes.

#96 Colleen in NS

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:17 PM

Hi, Colleen! I was wondering why I wasn't seeing you on this writing thread! I figured it was because your son is older and you didn't need WWS. I'd forgotten you have a daughter just the right age. I hope you had a great trip and recover quickly. :tongue_smilie:


Oh, trust me, I'll need WWS!! Just from the quick skim I had of the 20 weeks, I can see that there are many, many things I have not done with my 13yo. I use the advice in SWB's audio for middle grade writing, but WWS puts in all the little details. Same as how WWE did that for elementary grade writing. I used that to shore up ds's skills even after I'd done four years of narration and copywork/dictation with him. WWS will be in my home, for both kids, I think! Just need to read this thread again when my mind is clearer.

#97 Country Girl

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:32 AM

Hi, people!

Look, we have power! (kind of--the office is still on generator, but THANK GOODNESS the house is up and running.) Will do my best to catch up here.

I do have a full scope and sequence (at least a tentative one) for all four years, but I need to reduce it to a form that other people will be able to read. :tongue_smilie: On my to-do list, promise.

The teaching of the topoi will lead students, by the last year, to doing original research and composition. Even the first level ends with an independent project--topics are suggested for the teacher, in case the kid comes up empty, but by the end of the first year students should already have tools to find topics.

SWB


I'm glad things are getting back to normal and everyone is okay!

Thanks for the sneak peak into what is to come. I look forward to seeing the full scope and sequence when it is ready. In the meantime, we decided to just jump right in and give it a go. DS started WWS on Monday, and so far things are off to a good start.

Thanks!

#98 Capt_Uhura

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 03:50 AM

I do have a full scope and sequence (at least a tentative one) for all four years, but I need to reduce it to a form that other people will be able to read. :tongue_smilie: On my to-do list, promise.

The teaching of the topoi will lead students, by the last year, to doing original research and composition. Even the first level ends with an independent project--topics are suggested for the teacher, in case the kid comes up empty, but by the end of the first year students should already have tools to find topics.

SWB


Welcome back to the electrified world! I'll be jumping up and down to read a scope and sequence, just a rough one, not set in stone, for all 4 years. It really helps me to know where I'm going and what to expect for each year. It helps me to not panic.

#99 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 11:35 AM

Will Writing With Style be as vital to rhetoric stage as Writing With Skill is to logic stage? Or is it more like an elective for students interested in creative writing or those needing more help?


A student who finishes Writing With Skill should be able to go into freshman composition and do just fine.

A student who finishes Writing With Style should be able to skip freshman comp and go straight to upper level writing courses.

Hope that helps. :)

And how are we going to avoid being confused with WWS and WWS? WWSk and WWSt? I guess WWSkill and WWStyle isn't too hard to type, but my fingers are lazy sometimes.


Hmm...

I have no response to that. ;)

SWB

#100 Susan Wise Bauer

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 11:37 AM

1.what long term benefits for outlining in highschool and in university
2.are narrations in history and science basically written summaries
3. if i do wws do still make my gr.7 son do one weekly outline/narration in history and one weekly narration /outline in sciene
4.isthe written narration i do in history based on the outline he completes first from what he has read
thanks
hoping the wws will help me with all my confusion in logic stage science/history writing


1. Outlining teaches students how to organize their thoughts. A student who doesn't know where to start (and in what order to put succeeding thoughts) is likely to produce a jumbled, confusing essay.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. Yes, once he gets comfortable with outlining. I wouldn't introduce writing from the outline until he finds the outline itself relatively simple--otherwise he's likely to get discouraged.

SWB



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