3 Generations of Homeschooling to Dig Out of This Mess??

[justamouse]

Actually, it has - because there are hardly any jobs in basic manufacturing anymore. Machines accomplish more effectively what lots of people used to do by hand, plus many manufacturing jobs can be done cheaper in countries with cheaper labor. So, more jobs require a higher education.

A country with this level of wages needs to do work the others can not do - because it is unrealistic to compete with other countries in less innovative sectors. So, if jobs are created in the US, they will not be factory jobs. but will require a higher level of education.

As is evident by the disadvantages of people without college on the job market.

 

God willing we'll one day bring manufacturing back. We own a manufacturing company. We need highly skilled workers. But being on the front lines shows us that we need these companies back on American shores-not all, but a hell of a lot more than we do now. And if we had those workers with a classical education it would be almost utopian.

 

SCGS is right, it's for the person, not the education. Which, is also what Charlotte Mason said, "Children are born persons."

[Critterfixer]

As I read it (I'm almost done) I'm wanting to go back and read Charlotte Mason's books all over again, because his argument for building this culture in the younger years is everything she espoused.

 

"....I have to say, alas, that even the Great Books movement, so good in many ways, is based upon a false rhetorical assumption: students simply don't have the prerequisites such an education supposes. Tutors in their seminars betray the sweet reasonableness they have espoused by introducing Plato, Aristotle or St. Thomas to unformed minds who haven't exercised and purified their imaginations first in the "child's garden of verses" as Robert Louis Stevenson called it-I mean, the thousand good books that children and adolescents used to read before they tried the great ones."

 

Yet another great argument for the reading of fairy tales. But I will say that there can be value in reading content and words that are well beyond a child's actual comprehension. I often like to play audio-books that are fairly complicated for my ds7 to get, mostly because I like to listen. They see me listening, laughing, smiling, and focused with intent and I see them begin to imitate me. They begin to catch words that interest them.

Very often when they were younger they would grab out a book and sit and look at the words and the pictures because they were used to seeing me read, and hearing me read to them. Both of them wanted to write more than anything when they started kindergarten, because they saw me writing all the time. I'd argue that if exposure to the natural world is essential to the imagination, so is exposure to seeing self-education as the natural environment of the home essential to developing a culture of learning.

[FrogMom5]

Don't underestimate yourself.

 

Poor farmers could read and understand The Federalist Papers. They didn't have all sorts of classes, swim meets, tutors and personal drivers to get them everywhere.

 

I'm reading a book right now, The Restoration of Christian Culture, (Catholic, but applicable to any denomination) that is tilting my world. It's segueing right into this conversation. It's not only about restoring Christian culture, but about the education, the Great Books, Liberal Arts education that is the foundation of that culture.

 

As I read it (I'm almost done) I'm wanting to go back and read Charlotte Mason's books all over again, because his argument for building this culture in the younger years is everything she espoused.

 

"....I have to say, alas, that even the Great Books movement, so good in many ways, is based upon a false rhetorical assumption: students simply don't have the prerequisites such an education supposes. Tutors in their seminars betray the sweet reasonableness they have espoused by introducing Plato, Aristotle or St. Thomas to unformed minds who haven't exercised and purified their imaginations first in the "child's garden of verses" as Robert Louis Stevenson called it-I mean, the thousand good books that children and adolescents used to read before they tried the great ones."

 

He goes on to say,

 

"When you plant even the best children's literature in even the brightest young minds, if the soil of those minds has not been richly manured by natural experience, you don't get the fecund fruit of literature which is imagination, but infertile fantasy. Children need direct, everyday experience of fields, forests, streams, lakes, oceans, grass and ground so they spontaneously sing with the psalmist,

 

Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons and all ye deeps, fire, hail, snow, ice, stormy winds, which fulfill His word; mountains and all hills, fruitful trees and all cedars; beasts and all cattle; serpents and feathered fowls....

 

If they don't know the facts to begin with-not as something in National Geographic, or a zoo-they cannot learn to sing or love to read the children's literature which celebrates these things, and if without direct experience of reality and the love of it, you put them into a Great Books course you turn out smart, disputatious types with little real content to their agile arguments."

 

So, what he's talking about here is free (apart from the cost of travel). Pack a picnic and go to a state park, run through streams, play in lakes and rivers. Overturn rocks and find crawfish (even in NJ). Look for salamanders, watch the ants, identify birds. Keep reading good books. Go to the library.

 

It's not out of your ability. You're both too strong for that.

 

Yes, yes, yes! This is what we did with our oldest. We took him for nature walks, hikes, played with plants and bugs and so on. We also read to him from the time he was a baby. We recited rhymes and poems, read fairy tales. By the time he was 5, dh was reading The Hobbit to him as a bedtime story. DS loved every minute of it.

 

We do similar things with our 2 younger children. Unfortunately, our middle dc did not have this same foundation, as I described earlier. Not because his family was poor, but because they just didn't think about needing any of this. Our hope is that as we provide more and more of these experiences for him, his internal environment will change. We are seeing that happen now, but it is slow.

 

You don't have to be well-off financially to offer your kids the best enrichment. God has already provided that for us in nature. And, there are many free activites and videos on the web, once they are older. But the best foundation is one guiding them through and letting them discover nature. It sets them up for so much of the rich and rigorous academics that come later.

 

Justamouse - I will be ordering this book today. It will remind me how important it is to take my kids outdoors and show them "stuff" every day. Thanks for posting it!

Denise

[FrogMom5]

Actually, it has - because there are hardly any jobs in basic manufacturing anymore. Machines accomplish more effectively what lots of people used to do by hand, plus many manufacturing jobs can be done cheaper in countries with cheaper labor. So, more jobs require a higher education.

A country with this level of wages needs to do work the others can not do - because it is unrealistic to compete with other countries in less innovative sectors. So, if jobs are created in the US, they will not be factory jobs. but will require a higher level of education.

As is evident by the disadvantages of people without college on the job market.

 

Why? I understand that wages in the U.S. are higher than in many other countries but as manufacturing uses more advanced technology, won't that require a higher level of skill from employees? Skills that might not be found in countries where wages are much lower?

 

Also, I look at Germany and see both high wages and a lot of manufacturing. Is that just my impression from news casts? I have never lived there so I'm not sure I have an accurate picture of what is really happening in Germany. It just seems that the Germans are able to walk that line, higher wages while keeping manufacturing in the country, so why can't we?

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational. You are far more versed on this subject than I. So I'm asking, could we accomplish both higher wages and increased manufacturing here in the U.S.?

Denise

[justamouse]

Another thought I had about developing this culture in families-I don't know about many of you, but this Mom thing is all new territory to me. Meaning, My mom is a great person, but she never parented. She was there doing her own thing, we were there in the house and doing what we did. So the actual act of parenting is all new to Dh and I. Not only am I building in my own kids the culture of education, but of family! We've got three areas in our lives right now where no one personally has gone before us to teach us how.

 

So, I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes the mountains are really tall and we have to give ourselves grace.

[SorrelZG]

Another thought I had about developing this culture in families-I don't know about many of you, but this Mom thing is all new territory to me. Meaning, My mom is a great person, but she never parented. She was there doing her own thing, we were there in the house and doing what we did. So the actual act of parenting is all new to Dh and I. Not only am I building in my own kids the culture of education, but of family! We've got three areas in our lives right now where no one personally has gone before us to teach us how.

 

So, I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes the mountains are really tall and we have to give ourselves grace.

 

Exactly the same here. :closedeyes:

 

And as it happens, the mountain is defeating me today.

[justamouse]

Exactly the same here. :closedeyes:

 

And as it happens, the mountain is defeating me today.

 

 

Well, then a double portion of grace to you. :001_smile: :grouphug:

 

I went back and added the blog I was talking about previoulsy, unlinked, so here it is again

 

.ourmothersdaughters.blogspot. com

 

you know how the www goes? ;)

[FO4UR]

I'm reading Climbing Parnassus again. :001_smile:

 

...dusting off Wheelock's..."I am. I can. I ought. I will" applies to me too...right?

 

Don't underestimate yourself.

 

Poor farmers could read and understand The Federalist Papers. They didn't have all sorts of classes, swim meets, tutors and personal drivers to get them everywhere.

 

In fact, (or perhaps what I tell my own self as justification for my choices;)) children are better off with the Classical basics than the extras. A lot of kids are in a sport every season, in music lessons, etc...yet, they can't put a sentence together fer 'nuthin.:001_huh: They may be well-rounded...but a well-rounded WHAT???

 

My "poor" dc are in none of the extra's but are routinely picked out of the crowd as HSers b/c they talk, ask good questions, associate things they've read before to what they are currently learning. We've had the opportunity to visit New Salem (a big live Abe Lincoln museum, essentially) and a few nature talks. Every single one of them...my kids were the ones asking/answering questions (so much for socializing these dc:tongue_smilie:). These things were basically free, with a picnic lunch btw.

I am pretty low on the hierarchy of needs right now...definitely in economic poverty. My childhood violins sit unused, in need of repair. We can't afford the same kind of lessons for our children that I had as a child. It stinks, but I am teaching them off the "capital" I gained and they are learning piano (b/c we happen to have a nice keyboard) and singing/ear training (b/c that's momma's trade). I would love for my dc to do other things as well, but it's not possible. I give them what I can, and that fills our days.

 

 

As I read it (I'm almost done) I'm wanting to go back and read Charlotte Mason's books all over again, because his argument for building this culture in the younger years is everything she espoused.

 

 

 

I'll have to find that book too.

 

I've been reading CM all summer. (It should be a yearly ritual. It makes me *ITCH* to get back to work. LOL)

 

fwiw-I think the CM culture is doable in one generation, if the parents are draconian in training of their *own* habits. (ouch!) You have to train yourself to be disciplined before you can discipline someone else. What EM speaks of may take a generation after the CM ways take hold. I am aiming for the CM culture in the here and now...pointing to Parnassus...so I guess I change my answer from my first post in this thread...I guess it depends upon the starting point...not everyone in poverty has a zero start point while some people who are more affluent are basically at the zero start point academically/culturally speaking. (I won't name names.:lol:)

 

Another thought I had about developing this culture in families-I don't know about many of you, but this Mom thing is all new territory to me. Meaning, My mom is a great person, but she never parented. She was there doing her own thing, we were there in the house and doing what we did. So the actual act of parenting is all new to Dh and I. Not only am I building in my own kids the culture of education, but of family! We've got three areas in our lives right now where no one personally has gone before us to teach us how.

 

So, I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes the mountains are really tall and we have to give ourselves grace.

 

 

YES! YES! THIS!!!

[Rosy]

I read through page 4 will just attempt to answer the question and ignore the bazillion hot-button issues listed.

 

I think the whole point of WTM is that it *can* be done by anyone with a basic education and access to educational materials (many of which can be found at the library if one is not able to buy them). A lower-middle class family can still value education, Maslow or no Maslow.

[TracyP]

I read through page 4 will just attempt to answer the question and ignore the bazillion hot-button issues listed.

 

I think the whole point of WTM is that it *can* be done by anyone with a basic education and access to educational materials (many of which can be found at the library if one is not able to buy them). A lower-middle class family can still value education, Maslow or no Maslow.

 

If I may, I urge you to read the entire thread. It seemed "hot" right away but you are missing all the good stuff if you don't finish.:001_smile:

[regentrude]

Why? I understand that wages in the U.S. are higher than in many other countries but as manufacturing uses more advanced technology, won't that require a higher level of skill from employees? Skills that might not be found in countries where wages are much lower?

 

Also, I look at Germany and see both high wages and a lot of manufacturing. Is that just my impression from news casts? I have never lived there so I'm not sure I have an accurate picture of what is really happening in Germany. It just seems that the Germans are able to walk that line, higher wages while keeping manufacturing in the country, so why can't we?

 

I'm not trying to be confrontational. You are far more versed on this subject than I. So I'm asking, could we accomplish both higher wages and increased manufacturing here in the U.S.?

Denise

 

You are absolutely correct: the manufacturing done in a country like Germany has to be specialized, with advanced technologies. That does, in turn, require an educated work force which needs a bit more than an 8th grade education. The way it works in Germany is that almost everybody who does not attend college goes through a specialized vocational training to become a skilled worker. It is virtually unheard of to get a manufacturing job with just a high school diploma - the kid would be apprenticed and train in the sector where he wants to work.

 

Just as one example: East Germany had a large textile industry before the fall of the Wall- and that has completely vanished, because, as a technologically traditional industry, Germany can impossibly compete with Asian countries - German wages would make clothes far too expensive.

So, the way to go must be products that are innovative, require a lot of research and development, and a skilled work force. Which means: producing things that the others do not (yet?) have the skills to produce is the only way to remain competetive for a country that pays its workers this much.

 

So, I guess I should have been more specific about the kind of manufacturing I was talking about.

[FrogMom5]

Regentrude - Your original post was fine. I just needed you to flesh it out a bit more for me. Yes, I do see your point. Thanks for responding.

Denise

[SEGway]

I just wanted to say "Thank you!" to all who have spoken so eloquently to Hunter's thought-provoking question. We are just starting out, and you have given me much food for thought. (Especially with the self-education and top-down bridge-building ideas.)

 

I look forward to reading more.

[Hunter]

My head is spinning with all the new subtopics popping up here. I'm just going to start with an important one from several pages back.

 

Holly brought up bicultural children.

 

How does one apply the CORE of a classical education to another culture and weave that into the Western culture so that the child feels whole, rather than divided?

 

My childhood was spent hopping from culture to culture, as my mom remarried, and then I married into yet another culture at barely 18, and now in my 40s am integrating into yet another culture here in the city. I have to say, out of all my culture shocks, adapting to the homeless culture when I fled my marriage, was the hardest at least initially. I guess the other women took bets on if I could even last 24 hours before dying or running back to my husband. They asked me later how I was able to assimilate and I told them I just applied the basic skills of assimilation I had already learned and practiced many times. Several months into homelessness they were coming to me for advice and the phrase "what would [hunter] do" became a commonplace response to people's dilemmas.

 

But all this adapting has made me feel like a chameleon with NO culture, at all. Other times I feel split into a bunch of pieces, but usually I'm too distant from any of the cultures to feel split. I just feel like I paste a coat in of each one on to me, until fate carries me to another.

 

For a bicultural child maybe completing a classical education in one generation would be unhealthy and unwise? Maybe it would be the wrong goal?

 

But I feel like there is a CORE goal under the western coating, a core that might be found in any cuture. If that core can be defined and understood, maybe then it can applied to the other culture too and the CORES can be blended. What do you all think?

 

Holly, have you seen the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights"? I find that document so helpful in evaluating whether I think a cultural practice is "right" or "wrong". Some people say there is no right and wrong or good or bad, but I need at least a PERSONAL way to evaluate what is acceptable to me. I don't feel like I have the ability to put into words what I mean by this. I don't think I even fully understand it. But I needed SOMETHING to help ground me as I hear each culture's loud voice contradict the loud voices of the other.

[justamouse]

But all this adapting has made me feel like a chameleon with NO culture, at all. Other times I feel split into a bunch of pieces, but usually I'm too distant from any of the cultures to feel split. I just feel like I paste a coat in of each one on to me, until fate carries me to another.

 

 

Wow. I completely understand. I would say up until the last year this is how my family was. Utter flotsam.

 

I don't know how I would do it if I were you. My large family actually has made this part easier for us.

[Rosie_0801]

does one apply the CORE of a classical education to another culture and weave that into the Western culture so that the child feels whole, rather than divided?.

Maybe feeling divided isn't always a bad feeling? I can't talk of divided cultures by personal experience, but religion-wise, I'm perfectly content to be the only one I know who believes as I do because I'm not a person who cares for community in religion.

 

Rosie

[Hunter]

Classical Writing Aesop:

 

"The ideal orator is a good man, skilled in speaking." Quintilian

 

Before we can begin to lay out the details of a classical program in writing, we must recommend the ideal of Quintilian. This first century Roman teacher demanded that an orator must be, before all else, a good man. Virtue must come first, before any and all teaching of rhetorical skill. In his introduction to the Institutio Oratoria Quintilian says:

 

"My aim then, is the education of the perfect orator. The first essential for such an one is that he should be a good man, and consequently we demand of him not merely the possession of exceptional gifts of speech, but of all the excellences of character as well."

 

In Classical Writing, we similarly demand virtue of our students, and warn them that all the rhetorical skill in the world will mean nothing if they fail to attain virtue.

[justamouse]

Classical Writing Aesop:

 

"The ideal orator is a good man, skilled in speaking." Quintilian

 

Before we can begin to lay out the details of a classical program in writing, we must recommend the ideal of Quintilian. This first century Roman teacher demanded that an orator must be, before all else, a good man. Virtue must come first, before any and all teaching of rhetorical skill. In his introduction to the Institutio Oratoria Quintilian says:

 

"My aim then, is the education of the perfect orator. The first essential for such an one is that he should be a good man, and consequently we demand of him not merely the possession of exceptional gifts of speech, but of all the excellences of character as well."

 

In Classical Writing, we similarly demand virtue of our students, and warn them that all the rhetorical skill in the world will mean nothing if they fail to attain virtue.

 

you really should read The Restoration of Christian Culture. If you have a Kindle I'll loan you my copy.

 

If anyone wants to borrow a kindle copy I'll be glad to share (it's a two week 'borrow').

[Hunter]

Colleen and Frogmom, you are both sweet. I think I'll keep the full story to myself, because no one will believe it. I wouldn't believe it :-0 The number of times my older son and I have been called liars makes us clam up a bit. I have to bring court records, medical records and contact numbers to any new appointments and hand over all my "proof" and walk away saying I'm not opening my mouth till they check out what I just handed them.

 

I think some day I'm going to try and write a fiction book and just tell...maybe...half...or less. I had a room mate about 4 years ago get off her bed and yell at me while I was on the phone trying to deal with some crisis I don't remember. She said, "I can't stand this anymore! Your story left nonfiction a LONG time ago, but now you couldn't even sell it as fiction. I can't even stand to sit here and hear this phonecall. STOP it!" And that was when it had just STARTED to get interesting.

 

I asked her, "How do I make these things stop happening to me?" She said she didn't know or care, but to "Stop!" :confused:

 

Do you all think, when it comes to jobs that the USA has a slave population, but they are just overseas where we don't have to look at them? Now manufacturers are morphing into retailers selling the wares of our slaves?

 

I KNOW very little about economics, because I don't trust ANYTHING I was taught before a couple years ago. Lies about money and the economy were part of the financial abuse that was used to control me . I study a bit about what I hear people here in the city say, and what I read, but it is such a contradiction to what I heard from ages 10-39 that I don't KNOW anything. Well... I do know that the budget of a country CANNOT be compared to a budget of a small household and that was just ridiculous, but after that...

 

Justamouse, the book sounds good. I'll put it on my wishlist. I've got my nose in too many other books right now though. Piles and piles of books, I sit in the middle of on the floor. You can NEVER have too many books, but...you can have too many books to fit anywhere convenient.

[justamouse]

 

Do you all think, when it comes to jobs that the USA has a slave population, but they are just overseas where we don't have to look at them? Now manufacturers are morphing into retailers selling the wares of our slaves?

 

 

 

Yes, I think that.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2139401.stm

[9763653]

Yes, I think that.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2139401.stm

 

Ironically, this article's description of labor conditions is nearly identical to Marx's description of conditions during the industrial revolution.

[FrogMom5]

Yes, I think that.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2139401.stm

 

Yes, Hunter, I too believe this is the case. Except, I think some of those slaves are here on U.S. soil. One of the issues with illegal immigration that doesn't get much attention is that some of the people end up as slaves. Then there are people who are kidnapped, usually children, and people who are sold. It keeps me up at night.

 

It also really upsets me that you were manipulated and controlled for so many years. I'm glad you are out of those situations. I think God has a special place for people who abuse others like that. ;)

 

Justamouse - the article you linked describes horrible conditions but it doesn't sound like they are slaves. Not far from it though.

 

This stuff bothers me to the pit of my soul and yet, I'm not sure how to make an impact. Maybe it's why adopting was so important to us, one less child that might be exploited and abused. Friends of ours are investigating some things going on here w/foreign workers. If they find anything, they will turn it over to the authorities. Other than that type of thing, I am at a loss as to how to stop human trafficing and slavery. Or the abuses described in your linked article.

 

Stopping abuses is one reason why educating ourselves and our children must include a knowledge of history, governments, economics and religion. Understanding human behavior and motivation is important too. Finally, I think it is important to educated in a way that promotes critical analysis. A child needs to learn the background, then be able to research and analyze to come to their own conclusions. This is what TWTM sets out to do.

 

This then goes back to the bi-cultural argument. Many Americans are bi-cultural, at least in some aspects. Yet, the kind of ed. that imparts all this knowledge along with the skills to do something w/that knowledge and implement meaningful changes, is important to us all. I would argue that type of education is a classical one.

 

Whew! I'm sorry if I rambled. I had insomnia last night so I spent a lot of time thinking about all of these points. This is one of the best conversations ever. Hunter, maybe you should write for an in-depth news journal or think tank. Thank you again for starting this conversation.

Denise

[FrogMom5]

Yes, I think that.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2139401.stm

 

Ironically, this article's description of labor conditions is nearly identical to Marx's description of conditions during the industrial revolution.

 

The difference is that in a capitalist system with a democracy, these kind of abuses can and are stopped. Under marxist systems, they are not. China, the U.S.S.R. and North Korea are good examples of this difference. On the surface, Marx's idea of a communal society looks good. But, to have everything equal requires control which, historically has required force, which then necessitates dictatorship.

 

Marx does point out some of the flaws of a capitalist system. It's not perfect. There are externalities. However, his answer to it is worse. As capitalists, we can and often do make corrections in our system. Yes, they take time. No, things are not always fair. But, are they fair under the communist system? Ever? At least we can and do make corrections.

 

Neither system is alive in it's pure form. Human behavior factors in, for one thing. For me, I want to live under the system that allows for constant tweaking, correcting and input from the very people who live under it. That is what we have in the Western World. It's democracy, capitalism and yes, a bit of socialism (to one degree or another) mixed together. Not perfect, but works the best so far.

Denise

[9763653]

The difference is that in a capitalist system with a democracy, these kind of abuses can and are stopped. Under marxist systems, they are not. China, the U.S.S.R. and North Korea are good examples of this difference. On the surface, Marx's idea of a communal society looks good. But, to have everything equal requires control which, historically has required force, which then necessitates dictatorship.

 

Marx does point out some of the flaws of a capitalist system. It's not perfect. There are externalities. However, his answer to it is worse. As capitalists, we can and often do make corrections in our system. Yes, they take time. No, things are not always fair. But, are they fair under the communist system? Ever? At least we can and do make corrections.

 

Neither system is alive in it's pure form. Human behavior factors in, for one thing. For me, I want to live under the system that allows for constant tweaking, correcting and input from the very people who live under it. That is what we have in the Western World. It's democracy, capitalism and yes, a bit of socialism (to one degree or another) mixed together. Not perfect, but works the best so far.

Denise

 

That is a fascinating discussion that would require a whole other thread. If you want, I'll be more than happy to bite. I think you didn't realize that my point is the same as yours, though :).

[Critterfixer]

A book for anyone interested in economics through the ages and comparisons of various government strategies in managing economies should take a look at The Wealth and Poverty of Nations by David S. Landes. A thought provoking read, but a bit of a slog. Just be prepared.

[FrogMom5]

Dialectica - You're right! I completely missed that you were making the same point, more succintly though. :001_smile: I wasn't sure you were arguing for Marxism though. My thought was that you were just bringing out the irony. In my sleep deprived state, I went into free flow - always a dangerous thing to do.

 

Yes, if we are allowed, it would make a wonderful discussion. I do fear that people outside of this thread will become involved and may get tempermental. It's fun to go in-depth on these topics when you have people who want to just discuss and not get emotional. I learn so much from these types of conversations. How do we start the thread? Economic and political systems? Will that attract too much negative attention? What do you think?

 

Critterfixer -My oldest will be taking American Govt. & Politics and Economics this yr. He wants to study utopian ideas for literature, along with some of the books in Our Lady of Victory School's communism class. I'll add the book you mentioned to his list. Or I'll read it, at least. It should be interesting. I want him to get a good dose of all ideas.

Denise

[9763653]

Dialectica - You're right! I completely missed that you were making the same point, more succintly though. :001_smile: I wasn't sure you were arguing for Marxism though. My thought was that you were just bringing out the irony. In my sleep deprived state, I went into free flow - always a dangerous thing to do.

 

Yes, if we are allowed, it would make a wonderful discussion. I do fear that people outside of this thread will become involved and may get tempermental. It's fun to go in-depth on these topics when you have people who want to just discuss and not get emotional. I learn so much from these types of conversations. How do we start the thread? Economic and political systems? Will that attract too much negative attention? What do you think?

 

Critterfixer -My oldest will be taking American Govt. & Politics and Economics this yr. He wants to study utopian ideas for literature, along with some of the books in Our Lady of Victory School's communism class. I'll add the book you mentioned to his list. Or I'll read it, at least. It should be interesting. I want him to get a good dose of all ideas.

Denise

 

I would think it is hard to find anyone who will still argue for Marxism. However, as someone with part of my heritage in a former communist state, I did make it through the Marxist-Leninist classics (my "classical education" :D) and also saw first-hand communism's effects on society.

 

Studying economic organization and societal systems is very important, I think, and something that should be tackled in much more than a passing way as part of a history curriculum. I am sure we can discuss THAT here, without bringing in politics :001_smile:.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen and Frogmom, you are both sweet. I think I'll keep the full story to myself

 

After I asked, I thought maybe I shouldn't have asked, esp. in public - I am sorry about that! It's just that I've read bits and pieces about you, and thought, "No wonder she writes such thought-provoking and insightful posts." And after thinking I shouldn't have asked, I just didn't get a chance or else I kept forgetting, to come back here and edit. I hope I didn't embarrass you, and if I did, I am sorry! :grouphug:

 

There are two very interesting threads going on right now (this is one of them), and I have to keep quickly skimming through and not putting the amount of thought into them that I would like to right now! Maybe later this week.

[FrogMom5]

I would think it is hard to find anyone who will still argue for Marxism. However, as someone with part of my heritage in a former communist state, I did make it through the Marxist-Leninist classics (my "classical education" :D) and also saw first-hand communism's effects on society.

 

Studying economic organization and societal systems is very important, I think, and something that should be tackled in much more than a passing way as part of a history curriculum. I am sure we can discuss THAT here, without bringing in politics :001_smile:.

 

You would be surprised, unfortunately. I would love to discuss this all with you and anyone else who wants to calmly join us. I will start a new thread in a little while. I have to put my dd down for a nap and get my ds, 10, doing something constructive. I look forward to listening to you.

Denise

[9763653]

You would be surprised, unfortunately. I would love to discuss this all with you and anyone else who wants to calmly join us. I will start a new thread in a little while. I have to put my dd down for a nap and get my ds, 10, doing something constructive. I look forward to listening to you.

Denise

 

Likewise :001_smile:. We're dealing with food poisoning and also just started first grade though, so I may be slow to respond.

[9763653]

I though I would mention this thread has convinced me to at least seriously consider teaching Latin, which I was not planning. Thanks for the thought-provoking reply, Ester Maria.

[Hunter]

After I asked, I thought maybe I shouldn't have asked, esp. in public - I am sorry about that! It's just that I've read bits and pieces about you, and thought, "No wonder she writes such thought-provoking and insightful posts." And after thinking I shouldn't have asked, I just didn't get a chance or else I kept forgetting, to come back here and edit. I hope I didn't embarrass you, and if I did, I am sorry! :grouphug:

 

 

Colleen, you were fine. I am not a private person, and don't get embarrased easily :-) But I just get tired of being called a liar...so...I just give the tip of the iceberg story and let people speculate about what is under the water :-) And just have the fun of knowing that anything you come up with isn't as crazy as reality :-)

[Diviya]

A book for anyone interested in economics through the ages and comparisons of various government strategies in managing economies should take a look at The Wealth and Poverty of Nations by David S. Landes. A thought provoking read, but a bit of a slog. Just be prepared.

 

Yes, that's a great book. Professor Landes taught one of my favorite classes in college!

 

I would also recommend The Rational Optimist, by Matt Ridley, as another book on economic history. It's a wonderful read, and much easier to get through!

 

Loving this thread.

[Carol in Cal.]

How many generations do you think it takes the average lower middle class family to go from their typical PS education to a grade 12 TWTM education?

 

Depends on the teacher and the determination. One generation is doable with commitment.

 

It seems to take many moms YEARS to figure out books like WRTR, all the while the children are getting older. Most moms abandon it, to use on grade level materials, and give up on phonics mastery. Rigorous book after book gets dropped, until by 10th grade almost everyone has switched over to a PS style curriculum and then by 12 grade abandoned that too.

 

I don't think that this is a good criterion for whether someone is educated. WRTR is not really traditional phonics, at least according to the "Webster's Spelling" people and the latest catalogue from Memoria Press. My personal view is that WRTR makes things far more complicated than they need to be for proficiency, and Phonics Pathways or OPGTTR are perfectly respectable mastery substitutions.

 

I seldom see anyone dig in their heels and plan on only COMPLETING the logic age curriculum (or less) by grade 12 and then wait for the next generation to go further.

 

I think that a logic stage curriculum by grade 12 is respectable for English/language arts, Latin, and history, but completely inadequate for math and science.

 

What do you all think about families digging in their heels and building just the foundation in the first generation, because like immigrants they are long sighted? Completing TWTM grade 8 is enough to get into a junior college. What would you think about watching a family build the foundation and then learn a trade, or enter retail management or something similar, and plan to prepare to take the next generation further. To skip all high school science and anything past 1st semester basic algebra, and all AP literature, ect, but cement the basics listed in the major classical homeschooling texts.

 

Having a long view is good, but it should have a goal higher than this for math and science. 2-3 years of solid high school science, and math through at least trigonometry should be pursued, no ifs, ands, or buts, or the children are shortchanged. Additionally, technology literacy is crucial.

[Hunter]

The Blueborns say no one knows exactly how the Webster Spellers were used. It appears that families taught phonics orally and what they taught wasn't written down. I remember reading a missionary biography about a mom teaching her son reading, starting with Genesis 1:1 and I wondered how she did that. I'll bet she was teaching intensive phonics, Spalding style, one word and syllable at a time, because there is NO way that man learned strictly sight reading.

 

Yes Spalding type markings are new, but is what is being marked new? I'll bet it's not. I am in LOVE with Spalding type spelling, now that I am over the hump of figuring it out. And not just the spelling, but other parts of their integrated language arts. Webster's might have been the books used, but the entirety of the Webster method is not in the Webster book.

 

In the 1990s people were teaching the progym from Quintilian. Yes CW and CC were not the books used to teach the progym until a few years ago, but I fell on my face trying to teach the progym to my son, without them.

 

I'd rather teach the progym from Quintilian than language arts from Webster's. The complete methods are not there, much more than how the mom of that missionary taught him to read from the Bible.

 

Trig is certainly useful, but my lack of ability to spell is frustrating me WAY more than my lack of mastery of trig. But that is just me :-0

[Colleen in NS]

...now that I am over the hump of figuring it out.

 

:party::party: Gee, that was fast! Good for you!

 

OK, after re-reading this thread, I've decided I'm an immigrant and it *will* take 2-3 generations to dig us out. My kids will have a far easier time teaching their kids (assuming they decide to home educate) than I am having. I can barely stuff any more grammar or Latin or math into my mind now, nevermind hope to dig deeply into lots of classic books. And I thought I was doing pretty well a few years ago to conquer R&S 5 grammar. I feel constantly like my mind is spread out into too many compartments, as I go about this teaching business.

[Hunter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

...now that I am over the hump of figuring it out.[/Quote]

 

:party::party: Gee, that was fast! Good for you!

 

OK, after re-reading this thread, I've decided I'm an immigrant and it *will* take 2-3 generations to dig us out. My kids will have a far easier time teaching their kids (assuming they decide to home educate) than I am having. I can barely stuff any more grammar or Latin or math into my mind now, nevermind hope to dig deeply into lots of classic books. And I thought I was doing pretty well a few years ago to conquer R&S 5 grammar. I feel constantly like my mind is spread out into too many compartments, as I go about this teaching business.

 

I'm working on CW Aesop A today. Lesson 1 is the Tortoise and the Hare. What a fitting story to be working on first. If I were homeschooling a young child and was looking all the way ahead to the rhetoric lessons and thinking I had to get to them, it would be awful. I'm just going to follow the Tortoise's advice, "Plodding wins the race."

 

CW and a couple books applying Northrop Frye's writings on literature, and a college textbook on teaching children's literature are helping with understanding the full WRTR language arts model. There is no rush. I'm just plopping down and going to plod through k-2 until I finish.

 

Colleen I don't have a family to take care of and I DO NOT SLEEP, so I have PLENTY of time to study right now :-) I'm making steady progress with WRTR. I won't be FINISHED for a while, maybe years, but...I'm confident about proceeding.

 

I'm thinking of cutting apart my Strayer-Upton math book. The chunky books are so cute, but awkward to use. I'm really liking my SUPA and want to make sure I use it more. I think 2 pages will fit side by side in a page protector.

 

I think I'm going to go ALL the way back with art, now too. Looking at the scope and sequence for Art Pac 1 (sold but not written by R&S) was...yet another humbling experience :-0

[Colleen in NS]

I think I'm going to go ALL the way back with art, now too. Looking at the scope and sequence for Art Pac 1 (sold but not written by R&S) was...yet another humbling experience :-0

 

Mmmm....yes, I remember a similar feeling when I looked at the Art Pacs a few years ago. And I also knew I would never be able to incorporate that into my kids' lives (but I hope you'll share here if you do it for yourself). Around that time, I was gung ho about doing Drawing With Children and postcard/biography art appreciation with them. So I was paying closer attention to the whole business of teaching art. And I remember the "AHA!!!" moment when I first clued in that there was even a pattern to learning art skills: first, mess around with different materials; next, learn to "see" via learning drawing skills; then, apply those "seeing" skills to using paint on paper instead of pencil or marker on paper; last, learn some advanced "seeing" skills three-dimensionally by learning sculpting. I'm sure there is a LOT more to learning art skills than what I just wrote, but even to just get THAT straight in my mind told me that even learning art could be done systematically, and that art wasn't just a big random mess. Just like spelling/grammar/writing/math/Latin/etc.. I remember having long pm's with Nan in Mass about it (she must be sailing right now - haven't seen her here, and I'm sure she'd love this thread), and being so happy that I finally had another thin layer of understanding about learning something important.

 

Oh, and we did finish Drawing With Children after three years of on again-off again work. I'm glad we did it. I plan to start Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain this year with both kids (ds did a watercolour book a little while ago, and went lightly through a sculpting book - but the clay dust bothered his lungs). I might not do a great job with art, but I want them to get in SOME art skills while under my roof! And I still try to interject artist biographies and paintings every few weeks for them to look at/read/write about/describe.

[Hunter]

Neither of those books are enough for me. I'm pretty thick when it comes to art, but when I have the right instruction I make steady progress.

 

I've learned bits and pieces here and there, but I'm so disorganized, it's hard for me to stay focused when jumping from one curriculum to another. I'm hoping the art pacs might be the right thing for right now.

 

I'm planning on supplementing with books that teach art appreciation of picture books. Picture books are a wonderful opportunity to see a SERIES of art on a single theme, by one artist. It doesn't sound rigorous, but it's effective for ME at least :-0

[SorrelZG]

Reading the introduction of Drawing With Children was liberating to me. I was left in the dust throughout school because it didn't just come naturally to me and we weren't taught skills - you had it, or you didn't and so you passed or failed art class (complete with soul crushing critical remarks on ones report card - my husband burned my 8th grade report in our sink after coming home to find me crying on the floor over the ten year old piece of paper I'd found in a box). I have not attempted Drawing With Children but Colleen, you have inspired me to commit to doing so, even if I don't get it done all in one year.

 

I've pulled WRTR back out too, thanks to Hunter.

 

Still going back over LCC and WTM and Climbing Parnassus. Several passages in Climbing Parnassus really got to thinking the other night. I might paste them if I get the chance tomorrow.

[Colleen in NS]

I'm planning on supplementing with books that teach art appreciation of picture books. Picture books are a wonderful opportunity to see a SERIES of art on a single theme, by one artist. It doesn't sound rigorous, but it's effective for ME at least :-0

 

Well, I say if it gets the job done (or inspires you to dig further), then it'll be rigourous enough for you. That's pretty much how I started to like art, after years of thinking I couldn't care less about paintings from the past. Children's picture books. I still love looking through them. And I got interested enough that when I spotted an old book about art history in the thrift store the other day, I actually picked it up to look through. What I found was a book that didn't have many pictures of paintings in it, but it was interestingly written, instead of dry and dusty. So I bought it!

 

I was left in the dust throughout school because it didn't just come naturally to me and we weren't taught skills - you had it, or you didn't and so you passed or failed art class

 

Yep, that's pretty much what I always thought. Turns out it isn't so all the time.

[Hunter]

I would love it if others would also start posting quotes from what they are reading.

 

I don't think there is anything we cannot learn if we go back far enough, and find something that meets us where we are at, and step by step, helps us move forward.

 

I've pulled out "Drawing with Children" so many times...and it's one of those books that SOUNDS good, but as I try and use it, I feel like I'm not being given the tools to complete the assignment, even though it's supposed to be a book that does that :-0

 

Part of trauma recovery, is understanding that people are not mirrors. What they say about us, tells us more about them than it does about ourselves. An art teacher who tells a student they have no talent, is a teacher who has no talent to teach.

 

I spent a lot of time with CW last night. I don't know if I will try to make any progress through the series, but book A is an amazing resource for learning to teach spelling and writing and grammar with ANY piece of writing. Along with WRTR I know I will be reading this book over and over and over.

[SorrelZG]

Hunter, have you looked at the American Drawing Book mentioned in Critterfixer's vintage thread? Read through the beginning of the first chapter, see what you think.

[TracyP]

Still going back over LCC and WTM and Climbing Parnassus. Several passages in Climbing Parnassus really got to thinking the other night. I might paste them if I get the chance tomorrow.

 

Please do, if you have time. I just put a hold on Climbing Parnassus at my library. This thread has me very excited to read it.

[mo2]

Please do, if you have time. I just put a hold on Climbing Parnassus at my library. This thread has me very excited to read it.

 

 

:iagree: Yes, please. My library doesn't have it, so it's on my Amazon list.

[Hunter]

Hunter, have you looked at the American Drawing Book mentioned in Critterfixer's vintage thread? Read through the beginning of the first chapter, see what you think.

 

Thanks for the link! :-) I have just a couple pages from that book. When I had to flee quickly to another state to start my second time of homelessness, I took only my favorite pages from the copy I had printed out. I like the pen and ink classical style face drawings that looks like Greek and Roman statues, the border designs at the beginning, and the door drawing lessons in the perspective section.

 

When you have to go through all your belongings and only bring what you can carry, you learn what you like best, real quick. I also took my 1st edition Machen Greek textbook :-)

 

I only had 2 pairs of black yoga pants and some t shirts, but I had an Ancient Greek textbook and lessons on classical figure drawing :-) Priorities, you know :-) I also had ripped out a few pages from Ed Emberley's Green Book and Fingerprint book, but those were quickly given away to a homeless man who had used them as a child and wanted them so badly, and my load was SO heavy. I was doing a reenactment of the Oregon Trail. I threw away my flip flops at a hospital (where I stopped in to deal with my seizing) and was down to just my hiking books before I threw/gave away one page of a book, though.

 

I'm going to print out a few pages of this today. I've missed it. Thanks again! :-)

[Critterfixer]

Hunter, have you looked at the American Drawing Book mentioned in Critterfixer's vintage thread? Read through the beginning of the first chapter, see what you think.

 

Isn't that thing cool? :001_smile: It's amazing--I wasn't really expecting to find a vintage art text and bang, there it was! It's like drawing for the terminally left-brained. (That would be me.)

[SorrelZG]

 

I only had 2 pairs of black yoga pants and some t shirts, but I had an Ancient Greek textbook and lessons on classical figure drawing :-) Priorities, you know :-)

 

 

You sound like a lady after my own heart. :lol:

[SorrelZG]

Isn't that thing cool? :001_smile: It's amazing--I wasn't really expecting to find a vintage art text and bang, there it was! It's like drawing for the terminally left-brained. (That would be me.)

 

That's me, too! :lol:

 

Seriously, I haven't gone past the first couple of pages because they have me rethinking so many non-art related things. I've already switched my son from pencil to pen for his work after reflecting on the point made and how it is definitely being demonstrated here:

"He who starts with the black lead pencil in one hand and Indian rubber in the other, will find, however convenient the latter may be, that he will soon fall into loose and slovenly habit of which it will be difficult to divest himself."

My reflection has gone deeper than handwriting though - it's a sad picture of how I grew to approach life which has been traumatic because the reality is, life has no eraser. I confess, I'm neurotic, and perhaps that is why these deep and even dark things actually come to mind while counseling my son through a coloring mishap with pens caused by his failure to pay due attention to his instructions. My instinctive reaction was to vow never to allow him to use pens in school workbooks again but now I'm going to commit to pens and apply this from point 2 to life in general:

"Let your line be distinct and clear. Avoid a habit of feeling your way, as it were, by a number of uncertain touches. Endeavor, at once, to express your desire with firmness and decision."

This book so far is more oracle than drawing-book. This is what I'm pondering at the moment:

"We may rely upon it, that the child, who loves his slate better than his book, will soon, by a judicious indulgence, learn to love them both together. The truant and the sullen prisoner to the school-bench would become the willing learner; and the early habits, thus acquired, of observation and appreciation of the beauty and wonder of creation, will lead to a healthful thirst for knowledge, the truest and surest incentive to the study of books."

I can hardly believe the author is talking within the context of writing and that this is a drawing book. They just don't make 'em like this these days. :lol:

 

I was first drawn to the WRTR because it had been my natural inclination to teach my son letter recognition through various means, including tracing the letters due to some instinctive, undefined philosophy such as the author puts in words as, "childhood needs variety in it's labors."

 

ANYWAY .. random musings from me that are quite off topic. I'm supposed to be quoting Climbing Parnassus ... I'll be back with more topic relevant musings. :D

[Hunter]

I'm so glad someone else is posting quotes :-) It is an amazing book.

 

Don't you find that all of the best classical type books cross subject matters? Art and writing overlap continually! I have quite a collection of art and writing books and the crossover is CONSTANT in areas such as observing and describing and creativity and...