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3 Generations of Homeschooling to Dig Out of This Mess??


Hunter
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How many generations do you think it takes the average lower middle class family to go from their typical PS education to a grade 12 TWTM education?

 

It seems to take many moms YEARS to figure out books like WRTR, all the while the children are getting older. Most moms abandon it, to use on grade level materials, and give up on phonics mastery. Rigorous book after book gets dropped, until by 10th grade almost everyone has switched over to a PS style curriculum and then by 12 grade abandoned that too.

 

I seldom see anyone dig in their heels and plan on only COMPLETING the logic age curriculum (or less) by grade 12 and then wait for the next generation to go further.

 

Yes, I have memory loss issues and brain damage to remediate...but still...as I'm working my way through some 2nd and 3rd grade texts right now, I know I never mastered some of this stuff with my "gifted" child, and he graduated having not mastered some basics that he will struggle to teach his 1st graders, if he chooses to homeschool. Yeh, he knows some Greek and calculus, but he doesn't know basic phonics and can't spell his way out of a paper bag.

 

What do you all think about families digging in their heels and building just the foundation in the first generation, because like immigrants they are long sighted? Completing TWTM grade 8 is enough to get into a junior college. What would you think about watching a family build the foundation and then learn a trade, or enter retail management or something similar, and plan to prepare to take the next generation further. To skip all high school science and anything past 1st semester basic algebra, and all AP literature, ect, but cement the basics listed in the major classical homeschooling texts.

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Guest Dulcimeramy

If the parents and children in this lower middle class family are of above-average intelligence, it can be done in one generation.

 

At least, that is what I am currently trying to prove.

 

You left out part of the equation! I got my oldest son through the logic stage and I did it well. Now, as he begins the rhetoric stage, he brings his own talents and motivation to the task. It isn't just me, now, pulling him along through uncharted water. He has grabbed the rudder out of my hands, and will probably go much faster now!

 

I wasn't going to teach him Latin. He is studying Latin and Greek, and has his eye on Hebrew and French. I was going to insist on completing Algebra I by the end of 10th grade. He finished it before 9th grade. I was going to have him study Biology by 11th grade. He's doing it in 9th, at double speed.

 

You see, if the child is firmly rooted and grounded in the early years, he will be greater than his Mommy Teacher. He will have an amazing love of learning as well as an amazing cache of skills and knowledge. He'll take off, with a young man's grit and fire, to conquer Mt. Parnassus by himself if there is no other way.

 

And that is a very, very good thing. I have exhausted myself, just getting him through the logic stage. I am sending him on now, with the help of some good DVD teachers and courses. I can only encourage him now. I cannot teach him.

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My experience with my teens, matched up with some of what I've read in the Bluedorn books and articles. That it is REALLY hard for most families to make all the changes in one generation. They started out with a lot more money and education than I did, and discuss their inability to cover all of what they thought needed to be covered.

 

I was so sure we could do it in one generation, despite living in poverty and suffering some significant illnesses, that we allowed ourselves to jump ahead and not build the foundation properly. I kept looking at what the books and tests said we should be covering, and traded a secure foundation for what was more showy. And sometimes maybe that was good? I'm not sure :-0

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Kind of an interesting question.

 

In one generation I went from a single parent home just barely making it to having a decent education and being pretty successful. My parents divorced when I was 13. My mom had 2 years worth of college and worked as a book keeper. We weren't on public assistance for anything other than my dad's disability insurance. He paid a small amount in child support. My grandmother helped me to get the building blocks in K-3rd grade. I was in public school. I went all the way through high school in public school. I have a 4 year engineering degree and have worked for 10 years in the field.

 

No I don't know a second language and I don't know all the rules for phonics. I read a lot of different material and consider myself to be fairly well educated. Yes there are some holes, but I believe everyone has those. I have the knowledge to teach dd Chemistry, Physics, Algebra, Calculus as well as a lot of other things. If the public schools and colleges can produce an educated person with a poor background, then so can a parent. I had a lot of drive and I had some people help me along the way. I hope to give my dd a good enough education that she could get into Harvard if she wanted to. I think that I have that ability.

 

There are different ways of educating a child, it doesn't have to be TWTM method. You can be rigorous and have your own ideas of what needs taught.

 

By the way my dh has a master's degree in engineering and his spelling used to be atrocious. He has improved greatly from using spell check. Spelling IMO is not a measure of education or intelligence.

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I'm not talking about being able to make a living. Yes, it only takes one generation for a bright student to be able to make a living and learn some maths and sciences.

 

I'm talking about a solid CLASSICAL education. Latin, Greek, Hebrew, spelling/phonics rules, beautiful penmanship, reading the Great Books with ease, rhetoric, logic, etc.

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I agree with those who say it can be done in one generation. My dd is gifted, but she is 10 and completing algebra and we will be doing hs bio this year. I can only imagine how strong she will be in all subjects by the time she is 18. The things she says to me from having read things on her own, astound me.

 

I also believe that spelling isn't an indicator of anything other than a great memory. Both girls and I are very good spellers, and I do absolutely no spelling with either of them. Dh is not such a great speller and is brilliant in math and science. While I always took the highest science classes in hs and did very well, it wasn't something I chose to follow up with in college. On the other hand, had we had the financial resources for him, dh would have done very well getting a PhD in the sciences.

 

Part of the equation is who the children are and who the parents are. Some are able to impart a great deal of knowledge to a child on an every day basis without "schooling". We know a 10 yo who has a tremendous amount of knowledge about nature that was passed on by her mom. On the other hand, my girls know much less because dh and I are not as well-versed on the subject. We have to make an effort to "teach" our children. Not sure how articulate I've been, but my opinion is that it can be done in one generation.

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I'm talking about a solid CLASSICAL education. Latin, Greek, Hebrew, spelling/phonics rules, beautiful penmanship, reading the Great Books with ease, rhetoric, logic, etc.

 

I also don't think that all public schools are so terrible about this either.

 

While I didn't take latin, greek, or hebrew (although latin was offered, I choose spanish), I did read many great books, had an amazing art history class, have nice handwriting, went through Calc 2 at my highschool, can write well (despite my posts on here) and so on.

 

I don't have great spelling (although it is much better then when I graduated from high school).

 

Yes my public school education wasn't strictly classical, but there was plenty of reading great books, debate, and challenging writing available.

 

I feel very comfortable with giving my kids a solid mostly classical education. We don't do all those old languages and I know many would say you can't be classical without that, but we will read difficult books and learn to speak and write clearly about them (and other ideas).

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I'm not entirely persuaded that everyone truly understands the question .. or perhaps the goal that Hunter is talking about reaching. There are so many threads I've read about how everyone has their own interpretation of a "classical education" and their ability to accomplish it will depend greatly on that interpretation and then on the individuals themselves - some of us and some of our children just plain have to work harder than others.

 

Regardless of how many people use TWTM here I'm truly unsure that there are all that many that truly even value a classical education. Just for example, last time I read it it said that Latin was essential to a classical education (even if there isn't an agreement with others that would say it is central to a classical education) and it would appear from time spent here that most people simply don't care that strongly about that element and so have redefined 'solid classical education' for what really is simply a 'solid education', at least according to their definition of 'solid' which is probably definitely a high goal and something worked hard for and deserving of a sense of pride for accomplishing -- but not what Hunter is talking about, as far as I can tell.

 

I agree that there is a possibility in one generation to go from mediocre PS "education" to a truly good education that I personally believe greatly outshines the general output of regular college graduates thanks to these great resources we can glean from but to do what Hunter is talking about? Who even puts up a serious fight for Latin, let alone Latin AND Greek? Probably a few here but for most of us ... how many care? I don't know that too many are persuaded that there is value in it above modern languages so my point isn't to put any view down but merely to point out that the starting point would be to actually WANT what is described as a classical education (because while a classical education is a good education, not all good education is classical - there is no need to slap "classical" on it to make it "good").

 

So, I would be interested to hear from people that hold the same goals as Hunter but personally I'm thinking it would take more than one generation and that it would depend heavily on being able to at least pass on to your child not just as much of the knowledge you're talking about as possible but a valuing of the goal that would inspire them to do the hard work necessary to go further with their own children.

 

I hope some of that made sense .. at least to Hunter. Just to sort of sum up my point .. I didn't read the question as being "How many generations do you think it takes to go from a typical PS education to a substantial education that you would be proud of?"

Edited by SCGS
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I'm not talking about being able to make a living. Yes, it only takes one generation for a bright student to be able to make a living and learn some maths and sciences.

 

I'm talking about a solid CLASSICAL education. Latin, Greek, Hebrew, spelling/phonics rules, beautiful penmanship, reading the Great Books with ease, rhetoric, logic, etc.

 

It sounds like you are saying that unless you have a classical education that you are not educated and that sciences and math are only about making a living. Math and science explain how the world works and they are full of logic. And by the way calculus based physics has the highest D to A ratio of any college classes in the US.

 

At least in Lutheran Seminaries (the only one I have actual knowledge of) Latin, Greek and Hebrew are taught at a college level, so they can be learned in a matter of a few semesters. Reading is a lifelong thing. I try to read at higher levels and the more you work at it the better you get at it.

 

I like the idea behind classical education but there are lots of other things that I value as well. You talk about making a living like it is unimportant, but that is how we survive in the world and how we have the time to give our children a proper education.

 

I still think if the effort is put in a family in poverty with a decent public school education can give their kids a great education, including a great classical education in one generation. It will be a lot of work and sacrifice.

 

ETA: I went back and read your original post and realized that what you are concerned about is that you are trying to teach 2nd & 3rd grade and you realize there are things that you don't know. You also look around you and see people giving up and doing something easier when it gets tough. Homeschooling a classical education isn't for those who want an easy way out. If you want this for your kids you will end up struggling a lot and probably learning a lot. A change of attitude of I can only go so far to I will go as far as I can will help greatly. We all have challenges that we have to work at to overcome.

Edited by Mama Geek
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I like the idea behind classical education but there are lots of other things that I value as well. You talk about making a living like it is unimportant, but that is how we survive in the world and how we have the time to give our children a proper education.

 

:iagree:

 

I definately have a lot of ground to cover to make up for my PS education. That said, I graduated summa cum laude, earned a master's, and had a well paying job. Only now am I even aware of what I was not taught during my childhood. There has to be some middle ground between education as a functional means to productive adulthood and 100% coverage of every subject.

 

If my kids want to focus on Latin beyond the foundation (we will do at least two years, but we're not there yet) then great. If they would rather focus on other things, they can focus on other things.

 

My mother had a classical education. She didn't even realise it was much different from mine until she read TWTM a couple of years ago.

 

Very interesting question!

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How many generations do you think it takes the average lower middle class family to go from their typical PS education to a grade 12 TWTM education?

 

What do you all think about families digging in their heels and building just the foundation in the first generation, because like immigrants they are long sighted? Completing TWTM grade 8 is enough to get into a junior college. What would you think about watching a family build the foundation and then learn a trade, or enter retail management or something similar, and plan to prepare to take the next generation further. To skip all high school science and anything past 1st semester basic algebra, and all AP literature, ect, but cement the basics listed in the major classical homeschooling texts.

 

Forget what I think or am doing. I'm just interested in the questions in bold. I don't want to debate the merits of a classical education or overly talk about definition. Let full implementation of TWTM, The Core, LCC and Teaching the Trivium be the definition.

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I'm talking about a solid CLASSICAL education. Latin, Greek, Hebrew, spelling/phonics rules, beautiful penmanship, reading the Great Books with ease, rhetoric, logic, etc.

"Beautiful penmanship"? Does that mean cursive or printing? Because in my mind, "beautiful penmanship" is definitely not printing, and there have been many threads here about why people believe that cursive is no longer necessary (yes, even though some do a quasi-cursive with italics). No one talks about being sure their dc have "beautiful penmanship."

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Forget what I think or am doing. I'm just interested in the questions in bold. I don't want to debate the merits of a classical education or overly talk about definition. Let full implementation of TWTM, The Core, LCC and Teaching the Trivium be the definition.

 

I still say that you can give a complete Classical Education in 1 generation if you are willing to work your butt off and make sacrifices.

 

How many generations do you think it takes the average lower middle class family to go from their typical PS education to a grade 12 TWTM education?

For the average lower middle class family with a public school education the time would infinite because the average family doesn't consider it important.

 

What do you all think about families digging in their heels and building just the foundation in the first generation, because like immigrants they are long sighted?

 

There is no guarantee what the next generation will do. I have no problems with trades or community college, or people working blue collar jobs, but I want my dd to have more opportunities than that. Unless something goes terribly wrong I will do my best to prepare my daughter for any field she wants to go into.

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How many generations do you think it takes the average lower middle class family to go from their typical PS education to a grade 12 TWTM education?

 

 

 

Mmm, well, I've got the second generation going right now. It's a work in progress. But, I think the large issue is the concept of education. In PS, the goal seems to be to graduate a future work force, not to graduate a group of thinkers. If edcuation is about teaching a child to think for himself, using all available resources which he has sifted for truth as well as content; then I think that can be achieved in one generation.

 

What do you all think about families digging in their heels and building just the foundation in the first generation, because like immigrants they are long sighted?

My husband said something the other day about bridge-building that got me thinking about a question like this. We talk a lot about building the foundation, and the idea of a parts-to-whole approach when it comes to learning, with well-defined stages. Did you know that when an engineer designs a bridge he starts from the top and works his way down? (I didn't!) They have to do it, because you cannot know how strong your foundation NEEDS to be until you have calculated the weight and stress that will be placed on it. Building the foundation is important, but it seems to me that it is of equal or greater importance to know what the foundation will be holding up.

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I think there are some presuppositions in your questions that many people would not agree with from the start.

 

I would say that a disagreement with the apparent presuppositions you are referring to would be a signal that the question isn't for them. imho :001_huh:

 

I would really love to hear from people that would like to answer the question and discuss the answer rather than arguing against the question itself - that would be a valid response to a different question altogether. :D

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I think there are some presuppositions in your questions that many people would not agree with from the start.

 

:iagree:My father is a first generation American. His parents are from Italy. The were very intelligent, but had the language barrier to overcome, which they did admirably. They scrimped and saved to send my father to the finest private school they could afford (very definitely a classical education. My dad took Latin from 3rd grade on). They read the classics to him as a child and worked doubly hard to make sure he did his homework and was successful. My father went on to receive his PhD in Organic Chemistry from an Ivy League University and as a result of his parents diligence and foresight, I grew up a wealthy girl. One generation.

 

If parents seriously doubt their own ability to give their children even a decent foundational education, perhaps homeschooling shouldn't be the choice they make.

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I still stand by my opinion that it can be done in one generation. I do want to add that I don't agree with large amounts of schooling at a young age and thereby, do have differences with TWTM. I also don't like all of the curriculum recs, because as I already mentioned, I don't think spelling is something to be stressed at a young age. I don't know if that disqualifies me from answering the question.

 

And, I feel like it would be giving up on this generation not to offer them all that can be offered. I guess I'm having difficulty understanding why you couldn't offer it all and it would take several generations. Unless, of course, we're talking about the personality of a the child. It it's not a good fit, it's not a good fit. So, is the question how long would it take to get a classical education at all costs?

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It all depends on so much. My mother's family has been lower middle class for four generations now, my dad's was middle/middle, until my dad's father died when dad was 7 then they joined the lower middle. My sister is middle, my brother is middle, we're lower middle. I haven't hsed from the beginning, older ds started mid-2nd grade, dd started last October, my youngest will be the only one hsed from the start.

 

All the same, dd was shown what was expected of her for high school and is stretching herself, reaching those goals. She's flying through both Latin and German (no Greek or Hebrew, though). She LOVES reading the great books, and is on the Iliad right now. She's learning to investigate for history, instead of having it spoon fed to her, which is really an interesting development to watch. Science... well, she doesn't like it but trudge trudge trudges through. Math, writing, and vocab are not quite as disliked as science. She writes so much for history and literature, but for some reason the super structured writing assignments rub her the wrong way, she does them anyway. Grammar is a new found love :) Logic, which she's decided to finish up, is really stretching her as well and she enjoys it. With dd, I don't know if she will end up Ivy league and upper crust, but I do know that she's getting exactly what I think she's supposed to be getting. Her mind is expanding, she's seeing humanity as a long interconnected family and she's found a love for language itself. She doesn't have the foundation, but she's almost building it from the top down.

 

Middle ds gets very grumpy. He wants to move ahead, but doesn't want to do the work. He loves history, loves science, loves reading, and even finds math interesting every once in awhile. He just continues to hate writing of any type. For him, I do worry that a typical ps education might be better. He is learning Latin, he wants to go back to doing Greek, and he wants to pick up Hebrew. He wants to learn them, read them, speak them, but no writing. It's like that for every subject and that's the quandery I'm in there. He wants all the parts of the classical education, without the writing.

 

Youngest is too young to tell, but he's amazing. He's reading well. His math skills are strong. He's picked up a little Latin from his older sibs, but nothing worth really bragging about. I do know that when it's time to start he'll be okay. He enjoys hearing about history and science. He writes surprising well for a little guy and as we've eased into FLL1 he has been really picking it up. Last night he recited "The Caterpillar" for his daddy. For him, I do think he'll make it through a real classical education. He's really on a harsh schedule for a K student, but he loves it. He wants to learn, he investigates, he asks, and his memory is unbelievable.

 

So, I think dd will be far better off starting out than I was, even though her foundation will be built in four years. Middle ds, I don't know. Youngest, I really believe he'll come out of this with a classical education.

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Hunter, before I get started, can I just say I'd love to take you out for coffee and discuss this particular topic? I have a feeling it would be loads of fun. As that would be impossible, I'll simply have to attempt to make myself clear here.

 

[Deleted a long post here, that upon preview would have been a bit too much for the way the thread is currently going.]

 

I think a solid education can be done in one generation, as so many mothers (and fathers!) are proving on these boards.

 

I think that your average low-middle income family isn't likely to desire a classical education as you've defined it. A family that does have the desire, but is in most respects similar to the average low-middle family, might not have either the money, the resources, or the time to do a by-the-book WTM education. The lack of any of those three things would make reaching the stated goal difficult, though not impossible.

 

Critterfixer: Interesting point.

 

To continue the bridge-building metaphor, "designing the bridge" is establishing your goal and the WHY? behind it. Once you know what the goal is, and why it's important to reach that goal, you can then build the foundation to support your "bridge".

 

I think the idea is not to ignore either part, the foundation OR the goal. Both are important.

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I think that your average low-middle income family isn't likely to desire a classical education as you've defined it. A family that does have the desire, but is in most respects similar to the average low-middle family, might not have either the money, the resources, or the time to do a by-the-book WTM education. The lack of any of those three things would make reaching the stated goal difficult, though not impossible.

 

 

Hmm. Interesting! This has made me question all sorts of things this morning.

 

From my family's side, we are only 1 generation (me) removed from classical education. I imagine that other families might be further removed and therefore at a different spot. Now I'm wondering what is typical...2 generations?

 

Economically speaking, I think we might fall into lower middle class. But we made that decision based on our priorities; DH took a huge pay cut in order to work fewer hours to spend more time with the family, I became a SAHM for the same reason. I was brought up middle-middle, DH upper-middle. Socially we are not typical LMs.

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Also we can't presume that our children are going to agree with us. It is very possible our children will decided to live in dual-income households with kids in public school (IF they have kids at all.)

 

I actually don't even *pretend* to label my kids' education as a certain type of education. No curriculum or educational philosophy is sacred. You cannot do it all. After all, there are also elements of a quality *modern* education that public schools fail to teach, that require time and effort, such as learning to type properly, learning computer programming, more content in history and science, etc. If we define "classical education" as the education of our ancestors, say, 200 years ago, most were not learning calculus or linear algebra or how electricity works or about history and culture beyond Western civilization.

 

IMO, if you sign on to "classical education" hook, line, and sinker you are making the same mistake as people who sign on to state mandated public education requirements hook, line, and sinker. Critical thinking and open-mindedness begins with demonstrating it by being willingly to critically look at all our options as parents and educators, and recognizing there is no one-size-fits-all solution to every problem.

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Well, I'll say straight up that I can't give the kind of education that I would be able to if I wasn't having to learn many things alongside my child. My strategy is the multum non multa approach. If they then catch the vision they'll have an easier time passing on the "much" to where they might be able to add in "many". I could see it being done in two generations if one is extremely driven and manages to pass that drive onto their children. There are just so many ifs involved though. It feels like there is an huge invisible tide of indifference towards clear thought and speech and liberal knowledge and quality that even now I feel like my prayers more so than my efforts will be what makes the difference, if there is any, in the end.

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Well, I'll say straight up that I can't give the kind of education that I would be able to if I wasn't having to learn many things alongside my child. My strategy is the multum non multa approach. If they then catch the vision they'll have an easier time passing on the "much" to where they might be able to add in "many". I could see it being done in two generations if one is extremely driven and manages to pass that drive onto their children. There are just so many ifs involved though. It feels like there is an huge invisible tide of indifference towards clear thought and speech and liberal knowledge and quality that even now I feel like my prayers more so than my efforts will be what makes the difference, if there is any, in the end.

:iagree: I'm glad that I have had to start out with different levels all at once. My oldest is able to learn without me. So, next to her I learn the basics while she forges on ahead. My middle child is getting a better education, because I'm doing things at one higher level with his sister at the same time I'm doing them with him. My youngest will definitely benefit the most.

 

There are so many factors, you're right. Poverty is one thing. I've always loved to read and I know that gives me an advantage. I took Algebra all over again at the local cc the year before I started hsing, another advantage because I also learned that math was interesting. While I don't know or understand everything, I do love learning it. I think that makes a huge difference. Also, oldest to youngest. I think in everything birth order has some impact (even how/when you potty train). My youngest will have an educational foot up on his older brother and sister, because I will have a better grasp on this stuff when he reaches it.

 

I think it can be done in one generation, just not for the whole generation... does that make sense?

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I want to apologize. I got curious last night so posted a question. I've been having some mild seizures last night and today and my mind is slightly scrambled. Still curious...but scrambled.

 

I'm feeling SO annoyed, because I'm very curious, but don't have the ability to ask the question the way it needs to be asked, and don't have the ability to converse about it properly. UGH!

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Hunter, my dad and brother have both had epilepsy. My father has since passed and my brother has been off his meds for years with out a seizure. I understand how your brain can be messed up especially at the time time around the seizures.

 

Some that a friend told me about a year ago comes to mind. You can spend a lot or a little effort on your kids and they will reflect whichever the choice is.

 

My SIL has a limited vision for her daughter. She doesn't see any point in letting her dd take horseback riding lessons because that is something that rich folks do and her daughter won't be in those circles. Mind you my SIL is a professor. She doesn't know how her daughter will be when she grows up but she has an attitude that is limiting. Hopefully her daughter will get past that one day.

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I've been having some mild seizures last night and today and my mind is slightly scrambled. Still curious...but scrambled.

 

 

 

I don't even have an excuse.

 

But I did want to add that I work outside the home AND homeschool. Granted, I made the choice to go from a four-day work week as a veterinarian to a two and a half-day work week so that I could teach my boys four and a half days a week.

 

Just to add another factor into the ability of a lower-income to middle-income family to pursue (with the intent to finish) a classical education. Never underestimate the power of determination when it comes to educating our children. It isn't just that a determined mother will go two hours one way to a library every two weeks and sacrifice her time and energy to teach. What ends up happening as a result is that some of that drive and energy ends up being contagious over time. Because there is some hardship children end up doing without some things--we buy books instead of video games. We go camping instead of going to Disney World. Every time the child sees a sacrifice made for the sake of education it has the potential impact of showing the child that learning is worth it! Attitude can be very important.

 

My SIL has a limited vision for her daughter. She doesn't see any point in letting her dd take horseback riding lessons because that is something that rich folks do and her daughter won't be in those circles. Mind you my SIL is a professor. She doesn't know how her daughter will be when she grows up but she has an attitude that is limiting. Hopefully her daughter will get past that one day.

 

I don't think it is as important for a mother to provide unique opportunities as it is important for her to teach her kids how to find them and work to get there. It may not be that your friend can afford riding lessons for her daughter. But she should encourage her daughter to work toward the goal. It may be that she will someday have the opportunity to muck out stalls and feed horses to earn what she needs to pay for the riding lessons. She can learn as much as she can about caring for horses so that some day, when she has her own horse, she will be ready and will know what it took to get there.

That's part of education, too.

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I don't think it is as important for a mother to provide unique opportunities as it is important for her to teach her kids how to find them and work to get there. It may not be that your friend can afford riding lessons for her daughter. But she should encourage her daughter to work toward the goal. It may be that she will someday have the opportunity to muck out stalls and feed horses to earn what she needs to pay for the riding lessons. She can learn as much as she can about caring for horses so that some day, when she has her own horse, she will be ready and will know what it took to get there.

That's part of education, too.

 

It wasn't that she couldn't afford it, I think the discussion originally happened when my niece was too young to know much about horses. She just had the attitude that her dd wasn't going to move up in social class and that horse riding is for the rich. To me it wasn't about horse riding it was about not seeing the things that are possible for her daughter.

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How many generations do you think it takes the average lower middle class family to go from their typical PS education to a grade 12 TWTM education?

So as I'm looking through the responses I can't help but wonder what economic status has to do with the whole thing? I don't even know where we fall... lower middle/middle I guess?? But none of this has ever even crossed my mind when deciding on education for my kids. Idk, maybe that's just me? I guess I just figured it was pretty normal. In any case, as a response to the question, I see no reason why it can't be done in one generation. At this point I have every intention of giving all of my kids a classical education all the way through. I think it's definitely possible.

What do you all think about families digging in their heels and building just the foundation in the first generation, because like immigrants they are long sighted?

I have no experience with this. I don't even really get what it means - they do the first few years and then become lax and do whatever?? I would find it kind of lazy on the parents part, if that were the case, but I don't even know if that's the question... :confused:

Sorry, my answers are kinda lame! :tongue_smilie:

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My seizures have been killing off brain cells and I have been losing skills. The most recent and devastating loss has been the ability to divide :-( The day I realized I was CLUELESS on how to divide 62 by 3, I panicked, but then turned on the computer, and started researching lower elementary level resources.

 

It's going to be a constant need to review, so I realized I was going to need to pick a level that I'm capable of maintaining and then to pick the best of the best of resources, that are capable of being used to fill in the holes as they develop.

 

I never taught grades k-4, other than to tutor one of my sons enough, that they could get back on track, at school. I started homeschooling my gifted aspie 5th grader, and 1 1/2 years later pulled my socially precocious and slick entrepeneur rising 8th grader. I was a young mom living in poverty and domestic abuse and I winged it, the best I could. Considering the reality of my situation, I cry with thankfulness at all that I was able to accomplish.

 

We did a LOT of classical stuff, but didn't systematically complete a classical education by any standards. We were more LCC than anything, in a time before LCC had been written. My poor ragged copy of Climbing Parnassus was well used!

 

So...anyway...my seizures have lead me to be devouring k-4 books and setting up notebooks for myself of pieces here and there from the best of the best, of what I hope to learn and retain. And it led me to imagine a homeschool mom after about a decade of homeschooling a large family, saying "Enough is enough!" I'm taking myself and whatever students I have left back to kindergarten and we are going to do this "right". We are going to tear down the faltering structures we have built on sand and lay a foundation. For better and for worse, this family is going to start over and only move as far forward as we get, doing it "right" and if that means high schoolers using grade 2 grammar books and 3rd grade speed math drills, that is what we are going to use.

 

For some families, laying this line in the sand will only get them through complete mastery of grade 2. Figuring out WRTR well enough to teach it, is an accomplishment! For other families it will mean completing grade 6 or 8, and only dabbling in upper level materials.

 

I'm just curious about what it looks like to declare "Enough is Enough!" and starting over at kindergarten phonics and then how long it would take to build up to full implementation of grade 12 of the classical homeschooling books.

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Anyone who has experienced crushing poverty understands the effects of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

 

http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/a/hierarchyneeds.htm

 

The reality of lack of resources and oppurtunities, and the time devoted to survival that cannot be devoted to studying.

 

maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-300x252.jpg

Edited by Hunter
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For some families, laying this line in the sand will only get them through complete mastery of grade 2. Figuring out WRTR well enough to teach it, is an accomplishment! For other families it will mean completing grade 6 or 8, and only dabbling in upper level materials.

 

 

 

I am not sure why the family should want to inflict this upon their children. If they insist on a classical education to the extent that the kids finish high school with elementary school math because so much time had to be spent on Greek and Latin, I would consider this rather misguided for today's demands- the kids will have to function in the world and a 6th grade education is not getting them a job.

So, if THAT was the situation, I would assume that the family would consider the ideal of a classical education as not attainable, ditch it, and switch gears to give their children a different kind of GOOD education.

 

I honestly do not see the value of giving kids half of a classical education at the expense of high school level material - classical is not the only model. So, I do not see why anybody would want to aim at that.

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I honestly do not see the value of giving kids half of a classical education at the expense of high school level material - classical is not the only model. So, I do not see why anybody would want to aim at that.

 

There are families that use the term "1st generation homeschoolers" who are looking ahead to future generations the same way that immigrants sacrifice the comforts and oppurtinities of the 1st generation to plan ahead for the future of their clan.

 

I'm not saying families SHOULD do this. I'm just curious about discussing the IDEA.

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There are families that use the term "1st generation homeschoolers" who are looking ahead to future generations the same way that immigrants sacrifice the comforts and oppurtinities of the 1st generation to plan ahead for the future of their clan.

 

But in the immigrant families, the parents make the sacrifice to improve their kids' future - they do not impose the sacrifice on the kids. In the education scenario, the kid with the incomplete classical education would be the one to be disadvantaged. Plus, there would be no guarantee the child would even want to homeschool the next generation.

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But in the immigrant families, the parents make the sacrifice to improve their kids' future - they do not impose the sacrifice on the kids.

 

Not always. There were many stories that I can think of where the children were forced to leave school in order to work to improve the families economic status. However, I don't know that it would have been a decision based on improving the third or fourth generation. I imagine it had more to do with putting food on the table.

 

We are going to tear down the faltering structures we have built on sand and lay a foundation. For better and for worse, this family is going to start over and only move as far forward as we get, doing it "right" and if that means high schoolers using grade 2 grammar books and 3rd grade speed math drills, that is what we are going to use.

 

 

 

From the structure analogy, would it make sense to tear down the structure and throw all the materials away? You would not do that. You work with what you have.

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Hunter: We are going to tear down the faltering structures we have built on sand and lay a foundation. For better and for worse, this family is going to start over and only move as far forward as we get, doing it "right" and if that means high schoolers using grade 2 grammar books and 3rd grade speed math drills, that is what we are going to use.

 

 

Critterfizer: From the structure analogy, would it make sense to tear down the structure and throw all the materials away? You would not do that. You work with what you have.

 

Say...if it was taking a mom 3 hours a day to work through a high school math text with her older child, because they both had never mastered the basic math memory work outlined in The Core. And she said to that teenager, you can finish this book on your own time if you want, but during school time, you and I will be joining your younger siblings in mastering math memory work.

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Socioeconomic status seems much less relevant to me than a parent's level of education. An intelligent, reasonably well-educated parent can provide a true WTM education even if she wasn't educated in the classical style. The learning curve is steep and requires time-investment and dedication, but if a parent can teach the basics well enough to equip a child for the rhetoric stage, the child can complete their education through self-study and seeking out the teachers they need.

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Guest Dulcimeramy
Socioeconomic status seems much less relevant to me than a parent's level of education. An intelligent, reasonably well-educated parent can provide a true WTM education even if she wasn't educated in the classical style. The learning curve is steep and requires time-investment and dedication, but if a parent can teach the basics well enough to equip a child for the rhetoric stage, the child can complete their education through self-study and seeking out the teachers they need.

 

I agree. It is hard, but it is not that hard. If we are talking about neuro-typical people of above average intelligence, the world's best homeschooling job should not leave us working on second grade for 10 years. Even if we

 

1. memorize important information in every subject

2. refuse to move on until mastery is achieved

3. allow no shortcuts or skimping on the part of parent or child

 

we can still get progress from Grammar to Rhetoric in one generation.

 

Beautiful handwriting, good spelling, and all. It can be done. That is why WTM was written in the first place.

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Say...if it was taking a mom 3 hours a day to work through a high school math text with her older child, because they both had never mastered the basic math memory work outlined in The Core. And she said to that teenager, you can finish this book on your own time if you want, but during school time, you and I will be joining your younger siblings in mastering math memory work.

 

I don't think it would be necessary for the older child to be dropped down to a lower level to master memorization of math facts. It might be more prudent to simply do reinforcement of those facts on a one on one basis.

Three hours a day at a stretch doesn't seem to me to be a good use of time, and I doubt all three hours are spent in the working of the math. A good bit would be spent in crying I should think. And once a child is frustrated learning is an even bigger challenge. It might be best to drop down to one level, or to add practice where it was needed.

 

I am using MEP and Math Mammoth for both my boys. Even if I understand the math, I will still spend a portion of every evening going over the work for the next day and making sure that I truly understand what is being taught so that I can teach it better. Nothing to do with math facts.

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I'm no longer neuro-typical, so it's a good thing my boys are grown :-)

 

But STILL...this k-2 stuff is challenging to fully implement!

 

I've made about 5 switches in handwriting curricula. I make good progress for awhile with Cursive First and Start Write but then stalled out. I'm making progress again now that I switched to WRTR handwriting.

 

I've accomplished next to nothing with spelling even though I've spent about $200.00 and about twice as many hours reading and researching curricula. Spell check on my ipad has a glitch, so you can all see the spelling problem :-0

 

Then there is writing and reading and grammar. My inventive punctuation...is well...obvious :-)

 

I have a friend who has been generous with buying me books I want, and I've been incedibly lucky finding used books, and have been given some for free. I have more access to books and resources than many homeschooling moms. And more free time. Yeh...I've got my brain damage to deal with...but no child sitting and waiting with pencil in hand. I have no husband and children to cook and clean for.

 

If you come into classical without an education and while living in poverty, this is REALLY hard, no matter how much...sorry brain glitch hitting and lack of vocabulary...no matter how hard you try.

 

Again, I'm not neuro-typical, ESPECIALLY today...but THIS IS HARD! Between posting these posts, I have grade 2 Spalding TM and WRTR spread out on the floor...and...trying not to curse...but...golly gee!

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I'm no longer neuro-typical, so it's a good thing my boys are grown :-)

 

But STILL...this k-2 stuff is challenging to fully implement!

 

I've made about 5 switches in handwriting curricula. I make good progress for awhile with Cursive First and Start Write but then stalled out. I'm making progress again now that I switched to WRTR handwriting.

 

I've accomplished next to nothing with spelling even though I've spent about $200.00 and about twice as many hours reading and researching curricula. Spell check on my ipad has a glitch, so you can all see the spelling problem :-0

 

Then there is writing and reading and grammar. My inventive punctuation...is well...obvious :-)

 

I have a friend who has been generous with buying me books I want, and I've been incedibly lucky finding used books, and have been given some for free. I have more access to books and resources than many homeschooling moms. And more free time. Yeh...I've got my brain damage to deal with...but no child sitting and waiting with pencil in hand. I have no husband and children to cook and clean for.

 

If you come into classical without an education and while living in poverty, this is REALLY hard, no matter how much...sorry brain glitch hitting and lack of vocabulary...no matter how hard you try.

 

Again, I'm not neuro-typical, ESPECIALLY today...but THIS IS HARD! Between posting these posts, I have grade 2 Spalding TM and WRTR spread out on the floor...and...trying not to curse...but...golly gee!

 

I think you're being a little too hard on yourself.

 

Your posts are fluent and coherent. You obviously have much higher than second grade level ability in spelling and vocabulary.

 

I admire what you are doing in self-educating, but I have trouble understanding parts of this thread, because I don't understand why a neurotypical person of average literacy would have great difficulty in learning phonics as an adult, even the Spalding system. Most women who post at TWTM did not learn Latin as children, and some did not learn rhetoric or even study many of the Great Books, yet they have been able to learn phonics and phonetic spelling for the first time in order to teach their children.

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From The Core:

 

If You understand phonics, you can scratch a word in the dirt with a stick and teach a child to read the word.

 

An educated person is not someone who knows something, but someone who can explain what they know to others. Americans used to expect that the core knowledge they learned from their parents was to be passed on to the next generation. I'm happy when my students get the correct answer to a question, but I am even happier when they can explain the answer. I want to know that the time my students spend learning is useful for themselves and the next generation.

 

Penelope, have you read and/or implemented WRTR? It's really challenging for me! But I stopped making any progress with my spelling a LONG time ago and I don't know how to make further progress in this area without going back and learning to spell phonetically instead of by sight. If I had been raised using this book, it would be simple to pick up where mom had left off, but starting from scratch is...well...difficult to say the least, for me, and for many others here.

 

Ellie, do you know anything about any curriculum that talks about teaching handwritten letters and compositions, instead of using a computer. I think this generation right here, is losing another major classical skill. The ability to write lengthy writings directly onto paper.

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There are other phonics programs that are easy to figure out. I couldn't understand WRTR the first time I looked at it either. I chose something I could understand instead. There are many choices, including free resources (like the ones Elizabeth has on her phonics page), so I don't see why a low income mother would not be capable of teaching phonics, even if she herself had not been taught them. You are in a unique situation. You are self-educating and doing so while no longer neuro-typical. That is a lot harder than the average mother who comes here and wants to teach her 5 year old phonics. If you need one of the O-G methods, you may also need a teacher for them. Not all kids need O-G methods, and those methods are the ones that are expensive.

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If the parents and children in this lower middle class family are of above-average intelligence, it can be done in one generation.

 

At least, that is what I am currently trying to prove.

 

You left out part of the equation! I got my oldest son through the logic stage and I did it well. Now, as he begins the rhetoric stage, he brings his own talents and motivation to the task. It isn't just me, now, pulling him along through uncharted water. He has grabbed the rudder out of my hands, and will probably go much faster now!

 

I wasn't going to teach him Latin. He is studying Latin and Greek, and has his eye on Hebrew and French. I was going to insist on completing Algebra I by the end of 10th grade. He finished it before 9th grade. I was going to have him study Biology by 11th grade. He's doing it in 9th, at double speed.

 

You see, if the child is firmly rooted and grounded in the early years, he will be greater than his Mommy Teacher. He will have an amazing love of learning as well as an amazing cache of skills and knowledge. He'll take off, with a young man's grit and fire, to conquer Mt. Parnassus by himself if there is no other way.

 

And that is a very, very good thing. I have exhausted myself, just getting him through the logic stage. I am sending him on now, with the help of some good DVD teachers and courses. I can only encourage him now. I cannot teach him.

 

Beautiful post, especially the bolded! :crying:

 

This is where I aim. I am building the foundation and pointing to the Mt. The dc have to want it before they can climb it, but I will fight-to-the-death to give them the ability (skill & endurance) to make that climb...should they so choose...they may find another mountain...and that's fine, the climbing gear is still the same.

 

 

 

The reality of lack of resources and oppurtunities, and the time devoted to survival that cannot be devoted to studying.

 

 

 

:iagree: I understand completely. There is poverty, and there is poverty.

I can HS well in poverty. Poverty requires a different skill set. It isn't that poverty makes one unfit for HSing, but that it steals away time and energy. It takes time and energy to educate another person.

 

 

I know WRTR/SWR pretty well, but ya' know...it isn't THE classical way. As I grow as a HS mom (my oldest is 8...LOL:tongue_smilie:), I'm thinking that perhaps WRTR is more of a logic stage appropriate program...and not the definition of 2nd grade level LA. Maybe I'm jaded b/c it didn't work with one of my (precious) dc.;) I do know that learning that program made me a better teacher, but the program didn't produce the desired results in my child.

 

 

As for the original post, I think it does take multiple generations to build up that "educational capital." However, that doesn't have to mean HSing or Classical Ed. My traditional PS education is enough "capital" for me to give my dc a top-notch classical ed (given I have the time and energy to devote to the project). I read well enough to self-educate fairly quickly. That's the biggie. Many people in the USA cannot do that. (read) I have a strong background in math (and even Latin - 4 years in high school). I can pass on this foundation, plus whatever I grab during my efforts at self-education.

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How many generations do you think it takes the average lower middle class family to go from their typical PS education to a grade 12 TWTM education?

 

What do you all think about families digging in their heels and building just the foundation in the first generation, because like immigrants they are long sighted?

 

To answer your first question, I am hoping it will take one generation in my family. I started doing a TWTM-style education when my oldest was in grade 1, and I have had to learn so many things from scratch (including WRTR - though not mentioned in TWTM, my mother had taught it in her classroom in the 80s, but she didn't teach it to us her kids - so, I started it at age 33 or so, with her guidance. She got me going, but I did the majority of the figuring on my own.). Grammar, basic writing skills (decent narration, dictation/copywork), math facts, some of the "why" of basic math concepts, and the whole spelling/reading thing. I was a visual speller, who finally got stumped in upper grades with not being able to sound out new words or spell more complicated words. WRTR really helped me with this. Mmmm...what else - getting caught up in literature and history and basic science concepts. Would you believe that eight years ago, I had NO concept of ancient history???? It's embarrassing to admit. And no idea what physics was about. Art and music skills - I was very excited a few years ago to figure out that, given the right materials or book or personal teacher, it is possible to systematically learn music skills and drawing ("seeing") skills. I had no clue. So, yep, starting out here as pretty illiterate, lol! :D

 

To answer your second question. I think it's going to vary by family. I think (hope) I've done a fairly decent job with giving my kids basic foundations (while learning alongside them). Ds is going into grade 8 this coming year, and is coming along nicely with his grammar and math studies (he just started 1960s Dolciani algebra, and seems to be doing well in it - his father is working on it with him). He understood spelling a la WRTR a long time ago. He is coming along in his writing skills, and we'll be working on cementing the logic stage skills this coming year, in hopes of starting a rhetoric study the following year. Dd is coming along nicely in all these areas, too - she has learned at a different pace than ds has, but she is making progress. I think (she will be in grade 5 this coming year) that she has more mental skills now than I did at her age. And whereas ds couldn't wait to be considered "logic stage age" when he was around 9, dd is almost 11, and is putting up a bit of resistance when it comes to me asking her questions to find out her understanding of something (such as how to diagram a sentence or to clarify a sentence for her narration or to guide her thinking as we work through a Mind Benders puzzle). Still, she is starting to understand that I will not quit asking her questions, lol, and is starting to "click" with having to think about her answers before saying, "I dunno...." and she is coming up with reasonable answers and learning to defend her answers clearly. It's really fun to watch.

 

So, I guess it's probably fine for families to dig in their heels, give up to a grade 8 TWTMish education, and then do the "real life" aspect and forget, in this generation, about going further into rhetoric stage. However, I personally want to take my family as far as they can go while under my tutoring, and I've studied for years how to do this. I still have major knowledge and skill gaps (Latin! Literature! History! Science!) for myself, but I am starting to see where my kids might just take off without me. I hate that I can't do a more thorough job with them. But, for example, ds is studying Henle I for Latin right now. I'd say I started to lose hope for my own mastery of it about a year ago (due to full-brain from grammar and writing, and frugal-householding). But, I still know how to help him learn, I know how to keep him accountable, I know how to make a study pattern for him to follow. And thankfully he is able to absorb the concepts and memorize the forms and vocab easily. So, while I still maintain the overall frame of study for him, he is learning much of it on his own now. I feel guilty about this, as I cannot afford a Latin tutor for him, but he is doing much better than I would have thought. And hopefully he will be able to help his sister if she gets to a point of needing more help than I can give.

 

I want my kids to go as far as they can, classical educationally, while they are under my care. And along with that, they receive an education in practical living, too.

 

I'm talking about a solid CLASSICAL education. Latin, Greek, Hebrew, spelling/phonics rules, beautiful penmanship, reading the Great Books with ease, rhetoric, logic, etc.

 

OK, I guess this is where I fall down, though. English and Latin are all I can manage for languages. Tentatively, I will have my kids pick another language for high school study, depending on how far they have gotten in Latin. But they will probably have to learn that mostly on their own (with my guidance in study patterns, or with some type of comprehensive program, I don't know yet). Ds has expressed interest in Greek before, but he also wants to learn French, Gaelic, and Klingon. :lol: He has a few more years before he has to choose. I'm not stuck on having my kids learn Greek and Hebrew, though. I chose Latin for some of the common reasons discussed here on the forums. And I'm assuming that the skills learned in learning English and Latin grammar will help them to learn the grammar of other languages they'd like to learn.

 

Spelling/phonics rules we are good at. Beautiful penmanship....while I had practice in my elementary days at good penmanship, my kids have not. But I do have them practice, and I do have them make it readable - not just barely readable, but nicely readable. I wouldn't call it textbook perfect. They learned from WRTR, but their writing does not look perfectly like the WRTR letters. I did let my son learn to type in grade 6, because his hand hurt from writing, and he could not do narrations easily because of it. So why not use another technology besides handwriting. But he still works on handwriting via other assignments. So does dd. Reading GB with ease - we are not at GB level yet. I'm confident that they will be able to read some GB with ease, and that they will learn to tackle more difficult ones during their high school years. In general, they are good readers. Ds and I are working on logic - he gets it better than I do, but the jury is out on how well he will absorb and retain it for his high school work. It has been an experiment to start formal logic this past year. I am open to having to re-do it in high school if need be. But yes, I do plan to cover TL I and II with both kids before they finish high school. I know that's not all there is to "logic," but it's still far more than I ever did, and I can totally see the benefit of studying at least these two books.

 

And it led me to imagine a homeschool mom after about a decade of homeschooling a large family, saying "Enough is enough!" I'm taking myself and whatever students I have left back to kindergarten and we are going to do this "right".

 

Again, I'm not neuro-typical, ESPECIALLY today...but THIS IS HARD! Between posting these posts, I have grade 2 Spalding TM and WRTR spread out on the floor...and...trying not to curse...but...golly gee!

 

Penelope, have you read and/or implemented WRTR? It's really challenging for me! But I stopped making any progress with my spelling a LONG time ago and I don't know how to make further progress in this area without going back and learning to spell phonetically instead of by sight. If I had been raised using this book, it would be simple to pick up where mom had left off, but starting from scratch is...well...difficult to say the least, for me, and for many others here.

 

OK, these last three posts have me a little confused. It sounds like you were asking hypothetical questions at the beginning, but are now talking about families who didn't actually start from scratch at grade 1? And do THEY hope to change over to a classical education in one generation?

 

As an aside - now I don't know what it's like to have brain damage (I've read bits and pieces of your story - sounds like you have overcome a lot! I've enjoyed reading your self-ed posts). But I can say that as a very unconfident 33 year old, I tackled WRTR (yes, with my Spalding-trained mother's help from a distance), and I did master the basic reading/spelling/printing/handwriting. I didn't do the writing/grammar parts, simply because I like TWTM way better. I did it because I felt I HAD to, to teach my kids. I was determined to homeschool them, and reading was a big part of why. I had newly discovered the world of libraries (pitiful, isn't it, in my 30s?), and I wanted my kids to discover the riches of them, too. So, I'm not sure that a "neurotypical" person couldn't master the basic teaching principles in WRTR in a matter of months, provided they put their mind to it (I know there are other great spelling/reading programs out there). I wonder if you are having difficulty, because of whatever brain issues you have? On that note, I'll say that I'd be happy to try and help you if you ever want help, via pm. I love using WRTR, and have used it to tutor other kids who didn't think they could learn to read or spell.

 

Anyway, though-provoking OP!

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Well, I think that Hunter asked one of those excellent questions that may be somewhere in the back of one's mind, but few will actually dare to attempt to discuss them, because there is a bit of an irreverent, "provocative" air to such questions (as to most good questions, I am afraid). :) When you think about it, there is a *strong* dogma of "you can do anything and everything you set your mind to" in our society, but that dogma may or may not be factually correct. Or, as it usually goes, it can be applicable to comparatively few people who are already, in some way, unusually favored by life circumstances, even if lacking that particular educational capital themselves / in the family.

 

My feelings on this question are mixed, for the good and for the bad. On one hand, I have an enormous respect for individual determination and an understanding that driven people can make miracles happen in spite of all odds. I also severely dislike mystifying things, making complex things sound complicated rather than disentangling them in clear and accessible terms, and there are many people out there who seem to do just that, which scares people off. Classical education is not out of reach for intellectually intense, interested people (though both of those are needed: an interest alone will produce wishful thinking rather than concrete results, while intellectual intensity alone tends to burn out if not paired up with a meaning behind the endeavor), even if they happen to be born into families without that particular culture.

On the other hand... Things are really not so simple. Children who are not privileged with such a background often retain a bit of a "foreign flavor" when they acquire on their own that culture and seem to have, in many ways, a fundamentally different relationship, not as immediate one, with the classical heritage, as children born into families of generational transmission of that heritage who grew up with it, or educated accordingly.

 

I think there is a solid reasoning behind your question - when it comes to things like climbing the social / financial / academic ladder (not to even mention that all three ladders seem to be quite intertwined, so climbing one will usually involve climbing the other ones) we are talking about a generational progress way more often than sudden huge leaps. The leaps can happen in some cases, but it usually involves extraordinary abilities, paired with with already extraordinary cultural capital and support at home even if more latent, as well as some extraordinary circumstances which push the person further than they would normally go. So, while it happens that in one person the advancement of several generations can be "met", thus making a "shortcut", and while determination does do wonders when paired up with opportunities, it is actually not the standard process.

 

When I look back into the history of my family - or, better, into the history of families which brought about the one I grew up in - I see this as an ongoing process along with felicities and infelicities of history: several generations steadily build and prosper, an occasional genius makes a shortcut, but then catastrophes happen / people move / etc., so in many ways, the process gets started again. What is unusual, though, is a sort of long-sighted family memory, so in those circumstances it is easier for children to build their way out of their situation because their parents, and if not them, then their grandparents, cherish the memory of success, the work ethics of success, and the culture of learning with an amazing and mobile "cultural capital" which reflects on the mentality, so children do tend to succeed more quickly, or succeed better, because they are driven, backed up and pushed by family and the feeling of obligation, both to the past and the future.

 

I think this is where a lot of people fail: it is not the lack of resources or desire, but the lack of that intellectually intense culture as a sort of mental "default". This is hard to build on your own, these are things that are a matter of mentality first and foremost, and you if you do not "inherit" it, it may be extraordinarily difficult to come up with that type of mentality which is needed for successful, top-notch classical education. You may still get an excellent education and be a critical and productive adult, but a classical education is a different beast, culturally: it involves a specific relationship with one's culture. Because of that it is hard to make it within one generation if you start from what we would call a kind of "zero" (not zero as illiterate, but you get my point - I do think, however, that many people do NOT start from that zero even if it seems to them that they do), because it takes not only an intellectual transformation in terms of adding more concrete knowledge, but it takes a sort of paradigm shift towards life and learning in general. For people who did not grow up in it, it literally seems to be a process of self-transformation along with simply book learning, of aquiring living knowledge and mental skills along with just learning Latin and Greek. Imagine it like "converting" to a different culture, only that you are actually converting to your own, but in a very different way, with very specific types of connections and diachronic communication with it.

 

For a well-meaning parent without that background, the need for Latin and Greek might be a theoretical musing, something to nod your head when you read it because it "makes sense", but you do not really know what it is like, you do not really know just how things change when you approach your culture that way, and in spite of your best intentions, you are a sort of a blind person attempting to guide another blind person, attempting to pass on something you do not have, out of a convinction that it is good based on arguments you do not fully get from your experience, while you both just learn to see and make these types of connections; but for people who come from families of that tradition, it is a need, it is a living culture, the whole of education is a transmission of that culture first and foremost, and an absolute must. Teaching otheir children Latin and Hebrew is equivalent to teaching them arithmetic, it is a skill of communication with one's own culture and tradition so normal, so default, so needed in their eyes that they do not even consider it an "extra", and they themselves learned it as children and grew up with it, grew up formed by it, have a fundamentally different relationship with it than somebody who acquired it later in life out of academic interest - and then they can pass onto their children that formative relationship with it too, not just facts and knowledge ... Whether one can go to that level of intuition and intimate knowledge, not just facts and rules, but intimate understanding, within one generation, I am honestly not sure - it seems highly improbable to me even if I consider maximum committment and interest, more like a third generation thing, if all goes well and everybody works hard to get there. Of course, barring those exceptional "leaps" which happen now and then, when a rare genius and a rare enthusiasm manages to bridge in their person the gap between several generations.

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