Bang!Zoom! Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Just wonderin'. Just kinda getting the flavors & styles around here. Exploring. Does anything like that jump to mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I am one. Well, let's put it this way. Educational and work ethic expectations of a Tiger mom with zero humiliation of children coupled with loads of warmth and minimum of half an hour hugging sessions a day (at least as long as the boys let me). :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Gee I like all those "E" words. Educational Ethics Expectations Do you ever uh..ever have anyone approach you in conversation on any of those 3? What's that been like for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 With an exception of few people, I don't tell anybody what we do. I think most would be appalled that my 6 year old is reading the Iliad (Iliad for Boys and Girls. It's abridged) and very much enjoying it. What I consider education isn't what most of my friends consider education. I don't even know how I would talk to them about Es. One of my friend says to me that her son only likes to read non-fiction, but as long as he reads, she has no problem with it. I smile and say yes, how wonderful. I can't tell her that in my opinion an individual who doesn't read good literature and has no appreciation of classical music and art is half-formed. I know it's harsh, so I keep it to myself. When PS parents ask me why my kiddo is advanced, I point them to OPGTR and generally say we love reading in our home. I think if they knew how much we do with them, they would think I am nuts and certainly shun me. Yet, life is very harmonious for us. My kids love their books. Learning is just part of our life. With an exception of math, it doesn't feel like a lesson. I teach them music basically by playing piano and telling them interesting stories about composers. We discuss what we read, which makes learning very engaging in our home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 hee hee Oh goodie, I am making a new friend today! Go mom! Go mom! I like those words: appalled shunned It's like really fresh legos that you snap together. We play with legos at our house. :) ps: we don't talk about legos out in public much, it's not polite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 (I'm not afteschooling, but I couldn't resist popping over when I saw the thread title in the "Last Post" column....) I'm a Tiger Mom, but an Irish one (it was a common parenting style in older Irish-American homes, and it was passed down to me.) I'm listening to Chua's book while I jog at the Y, after many friends said I "had to read it," and I laugh out loud in recognition so often that people must think I'm strange. The similarities are amazing. We have the same rules here, except that I am stricter on behavior from the get-go and so I don't have to use threats or bribes. We joke all the time because my dc tend to spend a lot of time with Asian-American students, because we do math competitions, academic camps, youth symphonies, music competitions, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Shhhhhhh. You can't say out loud "Tiger mom" without having mud thrown at you :) I am not Asian either and I am in hiding :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 When I get around ethic old-school moms, I shiver in delight. I do not talk. I listen. I absorb. I believe in the theory of 10 thousand hours. ps: It's okay, u r safe here. No one is watching. If they sling - we will hide together on twitter or make a support group where they can't find us. I have magic abilities that make this thread invisible. Trust me. Let go. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aly9712 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think the fact we call ourselves "afterschoolers" implies that we all have some Tiger Mom qualities..... Our house has some basic rules around education- that some type of learning will occur every day and good behavior is required & expected. There are consequences for both. I don't like that she resorts to name calling, although I have called my 7 year old "Lazy" a time or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 I only admit to being "involved" anymore. It's easier this way. :) So like um...like with your "stuff" that you are "involved with" at home..you know, that supportive parenting, guiding junk...do you uh...like share those special experiences with the uh...you know..the staff at the cubs schools? Do they like you, hate you? Not know you are even alive? I exist there as a signature only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 There is a passge in the book that made me laugh. When she discusses play dates, she says nobody could believe her that her kids were busy on Sunday. We constantly have imaginary family members coming over at our house :) People are constantly crushing our house and taking up all our time. It never occurs to them that we may have plans (the word "study" is never used. Otherwise we are being looked at as Spanish Inquisition). I have told people numerous times that weeknights are off limits, yet they continue to show up and invite my children over. I love when she says that you build self-esteem by becoming good at something. So true! What stood out for me in the book is her absolute passion for music. To some extend that's what the book is about. I think one can debate if its necessary to turn every kid into a prodigy, unless one has real desire and talent. Yet if you want your kid to be a professional musician, the road she took is the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 "When people want what you have but aren't willing to DO what you had to do to get it" that's jealousy. (and judgement/misunderstanding & a bunch of other junk) It's not osmosis. It's struggle. It's work. (Advice please? The goon (kid) wants a at home school uniform for her uh..."playtime". Whatcha think? Get one?) I'm thinking white oxford button down w/pocket 4 her pocket protector. (glee, just thisclose to a beanie) Navy blue skirt or similar near-Catholic school deal. Vest? Tie? Black shoes? Navy tights? agh... (My keyboard glitters in magic fairy invisible no.one.but.us.can.read.this dust, so pretty!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I am a tiger mom. I teach high school, and one of my students brought me the first article and said, "Dr. K, this article is about you." I wonder...I have read threads on these boards, read articles online and in the paper, and have had the conversations in real life about the worth of college. I am always defending my multiple college degrees, even my general education requirements. (By the way, none of my degrees are in education. That is a second career for me.) So what do you all think about college? See this thread for an example of these conversations. I'll come read your responses after my DS and I listen to a Teaching Company lecture on American History. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) My opinion on Stossel is that he cherry-picked with a global reach in order to persuade agreement for his views. Whatever. Pfft. Some disciplines lend themselves to a degree..think law..medicine. Some do not...think venture-capitalism, art, more liberal sciences. The argument that was give in the Yale/100K was ridiculous at best. Again, it was population and the manifest destiny goal that was or was not the deal breaker there. I attempted (without success) today to point out a really frightening (to me anyway) trend in education, and that being corporate involvement in public schools. This entire realm of left-brain skills vs. right freaks me out completely. Totally. I happened to run across a four part essay on Susan's (WTM) blog that really gets to the meat of this. (One could do a compare/contrast with the theory of "digital divide" as well, but that's a straying..) You can find it here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/reflections-on-education/disappearing-words-part-i-the-bad-news/ There will be no invention at the highest levels if the liberal arts are destroyed as skills. For this reason alone, higher education almost becomes the only place it can be fully developed. And we'll pay for that dearly..both monetarily, societal costs. I can think of a million examples of this. One of the most outstanding I've run across in the last month or so was from a graffiti artist who went rebel and produced something corporate thinking could have never done. I'll hunt some links on recalling it. It was amazing, chilling and so inspiring. No degree was involved. Edited July 21, 2011 by one*mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) here it is, it's short for a TED, just under 8 minutes Doesn't the realm of open source education just thrill ya? I l.o.v.e This man is the perfect example of a degree having no value at all. Bill Gates and other reformers in the educational sectors really throw a lot at the concept of opensource. And they should. Edited July 21, 2011 by one*mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Well, I'm not a Mom :D Tiger Dad? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 Stalker! Stalker! Everybody run! Hide! (this is a joke..he'll *get* it, no one get all offended) Okay Mr. Bill. spill it......you put steaks under yer cubs beds dontcha? In case they need that late night protein snack while they read with flashlights in bed till four a.m. huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 I am a tiger mom. I teach high school, and one of my students brought me the first article and said, "Dr. K, this article is about you." I wonder...I have read threads on these boards, read articles online and in the paper, and have had the conversations in real life about the worth of college. I am always defending my multiple college degrees, even my general education requirements. (By the way, none of my degrees are in education. That is a second career for me.) So what do you all think about college? See this thread for an example of these conversations. I'll come read your responses after my DS and I listen to a Teaching Company lecture on American History. :lol: Hey Caroline, I'm off reading some summit stuff right now..but in my early scanning of it a question has come up. When you say that (in the above quote) about "defending"- I'm curious..do you notice a certain class of society showing up over and over again? The white papers I'm reading are about creating a college going culture specifically aimed at poverty risk group targets. Is there a majority or demographic of society you get the static from? Would you say there is a general common element of any kind you find when meeting resistance? The white paper is here: (on the very bottom of the page for download..good reading). http://dww.ed.gov/Increasing-Postsecondary-Access/Assist-With-College-Entry/profiles/?T_ID=32&P_ID=88&sID=320&t=2#tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlugbill Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Not a Tiger mom, but my dd is 13 and has been doing Suzuki violin since age 4 and is one of the top musicians her age in our area. So, parents of children we are surrounded by (other music prodigies) are Tiger moms. Half of my dd's friends are Chinese-American. They are all highly skilled musicians. So, we have gotten to see the Tiger Mom approach up close by seeing how my dd's friends are parented. And I read the book with interest- couldn't put it down- read it in one day. I don't really agree with the Tiger Mom approach, but I have come to appreciate the value of it. These kids are great kids- exactly the type of child that you want your child to associate with. They don't use bad language, they are polite and considerate, they cooperate well with others, they respect other people, they don't bring your child down. Unlike many of the "normal" suburban American children, they aren't so obsessed with celebrities, pop stars, the mall, materialism, fashion, putting down others, being mean to other children, disrespecting other people, being "cool", etc. Interesting that most of the "Tiger Moms" I know don't homeschool. Their children are in school, but in a sense they also homeschool. They teach their children math after school, take them to music lessons, make them practice their instruments daily, and take them to Chinese lessons, and church. I think many Americans don't really understand these Tiger Moms though. They think they are just being strict with their children. It's not the same as when American parents are strict. It's a completely different approach. For example, American parents assume that Chinese parents are trying to make their children into musical prodigies. That is rarely the case. Yes, they want them to excel at music and drive them hard. But the reason they play music is so they develop disclipline and learn the finer things in life- they become cultured and refined- the opposite of those American teenagers you see hanging around at the mall or out partying. Chinese parents do not want their children to become musicians. They want them to become doctors or engineers. Not musicians. In fact, many of the Asian music prodigies are told by their parents not to become musicians and to go into a more lucrative field instead. The parents do not hesitate to tell their children what field to go into and the children are expected to obey. Many Americans (including myself) feel that these Asian parents should allow their children to choose their activities more and encourage their child's interests instead of choosing it for them. But Asian parents feel that if left to their own devices, children will not push themselves and will just hang out with friends and watch tv, the way most American kids do. They feel that they know better what it right for their children than the children do and they definitely know better than other people's children or some pop star or tv star. These Tiger Moms are very involved in their children's lives, which is also very different from most modern American parents, who have largely abandoned their children to school, tv, neighbor kids, electronic games, and the internet. Anyway, if you are into the youth orchestra scene in most American cities, you will get to know a lot of Tiger Moms. If they aren't on this board, that's one place you will definitely find them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 Good thoughts. It could be my personal experiences and exposures speaking here; but my distinct impression and what I know about musical immersion & perseverance of the discipline is just that. To teach perseverance while building neuro-pathways which spill into other areas. It's all about the early "wiring" of the brain as I've learned it, and the focus of the music is secondary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I really wish I were a tiger mom. But I am too unorganized and tired all the time to be on top of my kids. My kids are very bright (2 would probably be considered gifted) but they are soooooo lazy. :glare: If I were more of a disciplinarian and a drill sergeant they would flourish. That being said-- there are so many geniuses who were essentially self taught, and whose parents were not involved in their education. Look at Bobby Fischer, arguably the greatest chess player ever. He was 100% self taught and his mother actually dissuaded him from playing chess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 My father was a career military person. We were never faced with the word "discipline" as an idea. It just was. In everything. His behavior, experiences, career were definite influences on my parenting style. I'd be perfectly over the moon to send my daughter into a military style school if I had the chance. I have a very strong set of opinions and values in the duty department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I really wish I were a tiger mom. But I am too unorganized and tired all the time to be on top of my kids. My kids are very bright (2 would probably be considered gifted) but they are soooooo lazy. :glare: If I were more of a disciplinarian and a drill sergeant they would flourish. That being said-- there are so many geniuses who were essentially self taught, and whose parents were not involved in their education. Look at Bobby Fischer, arguably the greatest chess player ever. He was 100% self taught and his mother actually dissuaded him from playing chess. :iagree:My kids would flip out at a Tiger Mom approach. However, I have been growling a bit more lately :lol: and we now have required subjects daily for my oldest M-F, no exceptions. Dd grumbles at it but she is doing SO much better, and she still loves it, asks for her favorite subjects, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 I try sometimes to take a long range view with mine. Is the "real world" going to be all mommy fluffy lets live through our feelings all day and still give us a paycheck? Heck no. Get your butt up, get on schedule and do the job you are paid to do with no complaints, low maintenance and with commitment and a spirit of obedience. My dad used to check the corner tucks of my bed before I could eat. He was a great man. There is everything right (in my view) of building appropriate expectations and having them met without mommies help. PC moms would mumble something about, "fostering a sense of accomplishment and independence.." Um. No. There is no frosting that really covers it right. It's about responsibility and consequences. I catch myself saying a million times a day..."because one day, mom's not gonna be there to help ya anymore.." (this means to operate as an adult in the big bad world) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I try sometimes to take a long range view with mine. Is the "real world" going to be all mommy fluffy lets live through our feelings all day and still give us a paycheck? Heck no. Get your butt up, get on schedule and do the job you are paid to do with no complaints, low maintenance and with commitment and a spirit of obedience. My dad used to check the corner tucks of my bed before I could eat. He was a great man. There is everything right (in my view) of building appropriate expectations and having them met without mommies help. PC moms would mumble something about, "fostering a sense of accomplishment and independence.." Um. No. There is no frosting that really covers it right. It's about responsibility and consequences. I catch myself saying a million times a day..."because one day, mom's not gonna be there to help ya anymore.." (this means to operate as an adult in the big bad world) Do you do that even at a young age? I'm all for then when they're pre-teens and teens but mine are littles, when I feel I should be building in them a sense of trust in me and themselves, and then they will have the confidence to do everything they need to do on their own in a few years. I want them to operate as an adult when they are closer to an adult, but not at 5 and 3 :tongue_smilie:. They have their own rules to follow now, of course, but it's different than an older child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Age appropriate. We don't expect our 16 year olds to bite, but we correct our 3 year olds if they do. I wouldn't expect a 3 year old to do self-directed studies, but now, where I am, I do expect my daughter to self-start and complete without my hovering, reminding, cajoling, encouraging, yadda yadda. She's old enough to handle it. There's a skill as a goal, then practiced, then gradually released for self-responsibility. Does that responsibility have to be perfectly fulfilled? A geniune "tiger-mother"- this is where the sense of relentless comes in. A step above "tiger-mother" is the Kyoiku Mama. (short, under 2 minutes) If you watch this, watch for the comment that "it is considered neglect by many not to attended cram school." There is a booming business here (in the US) for establishing cram schools. Would I send my daughter to a cram school? Probably not, she'd be in therapy first. :) Have I seen Kyoiku Mamas? Yep, sure have. Up close & personal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich311e Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I really wish I were a tiger mom. But I am too unorganized and tired all the time to be on top of my kids. My kids are very bright (2 would probably be considered gifted) but they are soooooo lazy. :glare: If I were more of a disciplinarian and a drill sergeant they would flourish. I so agree! I feel like if I could be more organized myself I could get my son to do more. He is very bright and doesn't want do any more than the bare minimum. I wish I had a little more Tiger in me. I read the book and loved it but I'm not capable of 50% of Ms. Chua's Tiger-ness. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Well, I'd say some of the issues here depend on the children and some of your parenting described here sounds Obsessive Compulsive to me. I am curious to know how many of you raised your kids to become healthy, goal-oriented adult achievers and how many are still young and their kids are young... Theory is one thing, living one's theoretical parenting out is a different matter -especially when the kids reach teenagehood. I have not read the book, but I lived 7 years in Japan, am a natural perfectionist and used to be a high achiever. I push my kids, but not all can be pushed and encouraged in the same manner. Japanese children and adults are indeed extremely talented and creative, however, they are herd beings that most of the time do not think independently and would never choose to stand out of the group. Many of the kids break from the pressures when teens due to the emphasis on studies and grades and end-goals. Also, after they graduate high school and get into college, then they sort of stop achieving. College and work there has very little challenges and everything depends on hierachy (again, herd culture). I am mentioning this because Japan used to be viewed as a very driven society since they build their way out of WW II's fiasco. Raising your kids as if you were semi in the army sounds interesting. Again, let's talk again after you (general you) have raised a couple of kids so we can see how well-balanced and self-motivated they feel as adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Well, I'd say some of the issues here depend on the children and some of your parenting described here sounds Obsessive Compulsive to me. I am curious to know how many of you raised your kids to become healthy, goal-oriented adult achievers and how many are still young and their kids are young... Theory is one thing, living one's theoretical parenting out is a different matter -especially when the kids reach teenagehood. I have not read the book, but I lived 7 years in Japan, am a natural perfectionist and used to be a high achiever. I push my kids, but not all can be pushed and encouraged in the same manner. Japanese children and adults are indeed extremely talented and creative, however, they are herd beings that most of the time do not think independently and would never choose to stand out of the group. Many of the kids break from the pressures when teens due to the emphasis on studies and grades and end-goals. Also, after they graduate high school and get into college, then they sort of stop achieving. College and work there has very little challenges and everything depends on hierachy (again, herd culture). I am mentioning this because Japan used to be viewed as a very driven society since they build their way out of WW II's fiasco. Raising your kids as if you were semi in the army sounds interesting. Again, let's talk again after you (general you) have raised a couple of kids so we can see how well-balanced and self-motivated they feel as adults. I don't see how demanding academic work produces herd mentality. On the opposite, I would think that a talented child who was never given a good foundation in academics is shortchanged. I would think Japanese "herd beings" have more to do with culture than challenging work. I agree that every child is different and the approach needs to be individual. You have to meet kids at their level. Also, we need to define what we mean by a tiger mom. Does it mean screaming and forced practice sessions, an aspect so often discussed of Chua book? I hope not. I believe best results are achieved when a parent sets standards but treats the child with love, respect and most of all kindness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 If kids are pushed almost every waking moment and have as much on their plates as fx. Japanese kids and possibly Tiger off-springs, then when does the child get time to stop and smell the flowers and find who *they* are? What their actual interests are? If a child shows early talent, should we just push them in that direction without them ever finding if they have other talents as well? Or what about the child who loves to do something, but has no strong talent in the field? Would they have time to pursue that interest if it meant time would be taken away from where their talent is? Have you read what Agassiz the tennis player wrote in his memoir, that he really never enjoyed playing the game? But he knew how to ace it. And he spent half a life time on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Excuse me? Obsessive Compulsive parenting? As if they are semi in the army? How much have you read on this board? None of us have said we don't let our children follow their own interests. None of us have said we don't let them stop and smell the flowers. We simply supplement what they are getting at school. My oldest is 16, so no, I don't have one in college yet, but I do have him successfully and happily in teenage-hood. My DH and I, however, were both raised in this manner. We are happy, well adjusted people. (By the way, to keep up the Asian reference, my DFIL was born in India, and he and all of his siblings are engineers or doctors, so I do know of which I speak.) We still are high achievers, as are DH's and my siblings. (All of us have graduate degrees.) How many have you raised to adult hood, with children? I do know our children. I don't treat them with a herd mentality. I treat them as individuals. I have one who is an elite soccer player who went to an EPL team's ID camp last week, his choice. (He smiles while on the soccer field, and plays tennis and swims, too, so I don't think we are pressuring him into one thing.) I have one who competes in math competitions. I have one who does dance. Because I encourage them to read classic books outside of school, we have high level math and logic discussions, we read history together, I am now treating my kids like they are in the Army? No. Well, I'd say some of the issues here depend on the children and some of your parenting described here sounds Obsessive Compulsive to me. I am curious to know how many of you raised your kids to become healthy, goal-oriented adult achievers and how many are still young and their kids are young... Theory is one thing, living one's theoretical parenting out is a different matter -especially when the kids reach teenagehood. I have not read the book, but I lived 7 years in Japan, am a natural perfectionist and used to be a high achiever. I push my kids, but not all can be pushed and encouraged in the same manner. Japanese children and adults are indeed extremely talented and creative, however, they are herd beings that most of the time do not think independently and would never choose to stand out of the group. Many of the kids break from the pressures when teens due to the emphasis on studies and grades and end-goals. Also, after they graduate high school and get into college, then they sort of stop achieving. College and work there has very little challenges and everything depends on hierachy (again, herd culture). I am mentioning this because Japan used to be viewed as a very driven society since they build their way out of WW II's fiasco. Raising your kids as if you were semi in the army sounds interesting. Again, let's talk again after you (general you) have raised a couple of kids so we can see how well-balanced and self-motivated they feel as adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 If kids are pushed almost every waking moment and have as much on their plates as fx. Japanese kids and possibly Tiger off-springs, then when does the child get time to stop and smell the flowers and find who *they* are? What their actual interests are? If a child shows early talent, should we just push them in that direction without them ever finding if they have other talents as well? Or what about the child who loves to do something, but has no strong talent in the field? Would they have time to pursue that interest if it meant time would be taken away from where their talent is? Have you read what Agassiz the tennis player wrote in his memoir, that he really never enjoyed playing the game? But he knew how to ace it. And he spent half a life time on it. I think we are talking about two different things here. Do I believe we should pick a "thing" for our kids and train them mindlessly into prodigies? No, not unless they want to. I used to practice piano 5-8 hours a day and I loved it. Playing with orchestra at the end of the year made every drop of sweat worth it. I think if child wants to pursue something, he/she needs to be encouraged. I am talking about a different thing. My kids love history, only because I read it for them. Do you think they would be fascinated by ancient civilizations if I didn’t introduce SOTW? They are increasingly interested in science thanks to Basher books. What I am trying to say is I expect certain academic standards and I believe love of learning comes from learning. I also hope that my kids can one day feel 10% of what I feel when I listen to music or read poetry. I think their lives will be very enriched. Our close friend’s son is graduating from high school with a good GPA but no interests in life. He admitted to never reading a book from cover to cover. I tend to think this is extreme and a great disservice. Yet he had plenty of time to stop and smell the flowers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) I have an adult daughter. But that one -whew - is *nothing* like this youngest one. My oldest child was "tiger-child" with confused lost mama...lol. Total role reversal. I have a lot in common Caroline & Heigh Ho; I grew up in a high-science/tech culture..deeply multi-cultural experiences..100% of the parents I saw from India, etc. were multi-Ph'd each, highly (formally) educated, and their children were put on the same track of education. All doctors, engineers, etc. Same thing as far as the environmental culture being drenched in it (all work stemming from one or two companies)- science based schools..programs that matched the companies interests. I have no idea what the heck is going on here (where I'm temporarily living). On the school testing (state standards page)..skill levels in science were a paltry 16% meeting standards in science for the fifth grade. Back home, if a report like that was published, there'd be riots in the streets. Really. Edited July 22, 2011 by one*mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 as a Tiger-esque Mom, I'm watching this thread with interest. DH and I are both from Indian/Pakistani families but raised in the US so we were both raised in a similar manner as Chua describes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Speaking from my direct experience, there is one thing I've seen from the Eastern traditional cultures and their families concerning education. They (Eastern culture) families *really* instill a sense of the collective spirit & goals. It's really different, that sense of responsibility. It's society at large; and it's reflected in everything they do. Western culture seems to be more slanted toward individual achievement; and not so much on the collective duty. Those societal pressures, or does the word "spirit" more accurately reflect it...there is absolutely a difference in what I've experienced. I've seen it (collective responsibility that's stressed) in the Pacific region as well. I wonder, when I'm there, if it's due to the migration of culture to the Pacific. I really like it. It's just part of the lifestyle. A big part. I don't think I do enough of that. here's a study on the differences: http://bit.ly/pgzhCL Title: Some Literature Review on Difference of British and Chinese Cultural and Educational Expectations Edited July 22, 2011 by one*mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 It was very interesting to me to attend a screening of the film "Race to Nowhere" this past school year in an audience of parents, teachers and our school principal. The film was a pretty hard critique of the school system, and especially the pressure of too much homework. A great discussion followed. Most of the "American" parents were very sympathetic to the film, but then the foreign-born parents (of whom our school has many highly-successful examples) started the "counter-attack." These parents (from Europe, Iran, and India to name a few localities) said they feel American children are indulged, that they (the parents) had much more rigorous work back at home, and that America's lunch was going to be eaten by the rest of the world if we don't wise up. It was quite entertaining :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Speaking from my direct experience, there is one thing I've seen from the Eastern traditional cultures and their families concerning education. They (Eastern culture) families *really* instill a sense of the collective spirit & goals. It's really different, that sense of responsibility. It's society at large; and it's reflected in everything they do. Western culture seems to be more slanted toward individual achievement; and not so much on the collective duty. Oh absolutely. In our culture, we don't save for retirement. We put our money towards our children's higher education, and the expectation is that our children will take care of us when we are older. So when my son chooses a career, the idea is that he's going to keep in mind the fact that he will eventually support his own family as well as his parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 OMG, a screening & discussion? I am SO jealous. Not envy, JEALOUS! Yer such a brat Bill. You get to do all the fun stuff. :) http://www.racetonowhere.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 OMG, a screening & discussion? I am SO jealous. Not envy, JEALOUS! Yer such a brat Bill. You get to do all the fun stuff. :) http://www.racetonowhere.com/ To top off your envy, we saw the film in a luxurious screening room on the 20th Century Fox movie studio lot (where a parent is an executive and set up the venue). It was fun walking around the lot prior to the screening. Fox is a great old Hollywood studio. I was so proud of our school Principal for coming to the screening, and hanging in graciously under some pretty tough post-movie questioning. She was very non-defensive and honest. She said that she and the teaching staff frequently discuss the amount of homework (among other educational concerns) and that seeing the film would no doubt spur further discussion. She also said that homework was a tricky issue, that (being ours is a school with a high percentage of highly successful parents) for every parent who felt there was too much homework, there would be another complaining the school was to "lax" if they cut the amount. And this was before the "back-lash" from some of our foreign born parents proved the point. I love having an administrator and teachers who care enough to come to such things. It was actually sponsored by our school's Booster Club (Mrs Spy Car was the president) and we also sponsored a screening of "Waiting for Superman" on the Paramount Studio lot that the Principal and many teachers and parents attended. Just to rub it in :tongue_smilie: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Poetic License. In my culture we also rely on our children for retirement :) Although financial aspect is certainly present, I would say that culture also has a lot to do with it. Having a written culture that goes back to almost 2,000 years, the appreciation of poetry and literature is very strong among "my people" :). All children are expected to memorize poetry. A typical 8 year old can quote a 12th century poet. I remember my mom always being surprised that despite shelling out substantial amount of money on preschool, my kids didn't know poems :) They do now. Also, in ancient times it was popular to hold poetry competitions and you see the remnants on that in the culture today. A typical head of the table during the feast is judged by the eloquence and the ability to recite poetry. We had some in our family :). So, well read people are actually popular. Kids back home go to regular school, often music school as well and have several tutors (at least 2 foreign languages and math). Nobody seems to think much of it. It's just the way it is. I was raised that way (piano, tennis, foreign languages, dance...) and it never occurred to me that I was somehow overworked. Actually I have very dear memories. As far as the film is concerned, I have some ideas why kids feel overwhelmed. Having watched my friends kids go through elementary school, I realized there is little work involved in early years. So, you are throwing kids that weren't taught much in elementary grades (trust me, I know 6th graders that don't know what a pronoun is) and dumping a lot of work on them in high school. They have no tools to handle it. Many don't have sufficient reading ability to handle classics. Their math is mediocre and they break down on calculus. I also don't like how classes are structured. I started physics in 6th grade and studied that subject until I graduated from high school. Same applies to all other subjects. We simply had no choice. Subjects were introduced early at an easy level and taught step by step over many years. It's easy to do it that way. Now our poor high school kids are thrown into physics classes and expected to learn in one semester what took us 3 years to learn. I am rambling now, so I will stop :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Dear Bill: :leaving: After I stop crying, I have a contrast/compare story for you. BRAT:D :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Poetic License. In my culture we also rely on our children for retirement :) Although financial aspect is certainly present, I would say that culture also has a lot to do with it. Having a written culture that goes back to almost 2,000 years, the appreciation of poetry and literature is very strong among "my people" :). All children are expected to memorize poetry. A typical 8 year old can quote a 12th century poet. I remember my mom always being surprised that despite shelling out substantial amount of money on preschool, my kids didn't know poems :) They do now. Also, in ancient times it was popular to hold poetry competitions and you see the remnants on that in the culture today. A typical head of the table during the feast is judged by the eloquence and the ability to recite poetry. We had some in our family :). So, well read people are actually popular. Kids back home go to regular school, often music school as well and have several tutors (at least 2 foreign languages and math). Nobody seems to think much of it. It's just the way it is. I was raised that way (piano, tennis, foreign languages, dance...) and it never occurred to me that I was somehow overworked. Actually I have very dear memories. As far as the film is concerned, I have some ideas why kids feel overwhelmed. Having watched my friends kids go through elementary school, I realized there is little work involved in early years. So, you are throwing kids that weren't taught much in elementary grades (trust me, I know 6th graders that don't know what a pronoun is) and dumping a lot of work on them in high school. They have no tools to handle it. Many don't have sufficient reading ability to handle classics. Their math is mediocre and they break down on calculus. I also don't like how classes are structured. I started physics in 6th grade and studied that subject until I graduated from high school. Same applies to all other subjects. We simply had no choice. Subjects were introduced early at an easy level and taught step by step over many years. It's easy to do it that way. Now our poor high school kids are thrown into physics classes and expected to learn in one semester what took us 3 years to learn. I am rambling now, so I will stop :) Can I live there??? :lol: I wish I started physics in 6th grade. Man. That would have been so much easier to understand than having it as this big looming unknown idea in high school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 too late. They are westernizing their curriculum :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Bill, a couple of questions, well, let's just start with one. What sorts of things or activities does your school/district *DO* throughout the year to foster communication and respect between parents and teachers? I'm completely jaded today; but it wasn't always that way... The contrast/compare now that I've had some recovery time from your glorious post that nearly killed me with envy.. I looked up my old home district parent page. Good gravy...pages and pages and pages of opportunities to interact with the teachers, events, community sponsored support systems..just made me so sad, I miss it... My new district (the school district page) is only about 25% functional...and it says there all the smack talk about valuing parents...and you click the link for opportunities to engage... And it's selling cookies etc. ---- I don't know how to handle it going forward. Really. I'm probably just going to turn my back again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Caroline, I was referring back to the poster or two who mentioned the drill of her father who was in the military. It is great that you are balancing your children's emotions with a real intellectual push and high expectations. I am not all new to the parenting field with eight kids of whom two are in college (no Ivy Leagues, but still decent schools such as Wellesley and Mt. Holyoke), was educated in Europe with a husband who is from the Middle East where they are pretty much educated with the end in mind and no time to waste or not pick your own study of interest (you enter the field in college depending on your grades so a huge hierarchy there). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Bill, a couple of questions, well, let's just start with one. What sorts of things or activities does your school/district *DO* throughout the year to foster communication and respect between parents and teachers? Our school district (the LAUSD) is one of the nation's largest, and is beset with problems. Many dream of breaking the district up into smaller pieces and "reform" is an ongoing issue (even if little happens). So we are not the role-models as a district. In a sea of troubled schools we have an island of refuge. Ours is one of the highly functioning schools, so we get rather loose-reins from district interference in the classroom and have attracted good teachers who are (to some extent) left to their own devices—and we have good communication and cooperation among teachers in the same grade level who share ideas and resources. Parents are involved at our school. Classroom volunteerism is encouraged (successfully) and we have a very involved and motivated Booster Club that raises money to pay for additional support staff, teachers, art teachers, computers, Smart-boards, and other things of this kind. We have also been sponsoring lectures on things like practical ways to deal with home work and some of the adverse effects of technology, in addition to sponsoring the two documentaries last year. We are trying to think of ways to open the dialogue between parent and teachers even more in the coming years. The good news is we have teachers and a Principal who are open to this kind of discussion. That is huge! Our teachers have everything to gain in having well prepared students and involved parents (OK, involved parents are occasionally a pain in the butt, but it is an over-all good thing). There are a number of elementary schools in our area that have turned themselves around. All have done so with a combination of open-minded Principals and teachers working with committed parents who were willing to raise funds to pay for the services that the district will not provide. These funds are especially necessary in non-Title One schools, as schools in economically disadvantaged areas get higher funding from the district in an attempt to compensate for the educational problems in those schools and communities. I'm completely jaded today; but it wasn't always that way... The contrast/compare now that I've had some recovery time from your glorious post that nearly killed me with envy.. I looked up my old home district parent page. Good gravy...pages and pages and pages of opportunities to interact with the teachers, events, community sponsored support systems..just made me so sad, I miss it... My new district (the school district page) is only about 25% functional...and it says there all the smack talk about valuing parents...and you click the link for opportunities to engage... And it's selling cookies etc. ---- I don't know how to handle it going forward. Really. I'm probably just going to turn my back again. Sorry. My post will probably not have you feeling any better. It is a pleasure to be at a highly functioning school where parents kick in time and money, the teaching staff is strong and happy and the Principal is open. We have much to be grateful for. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Wah! sniff..sniff... Good for you. (sob) I feel like a Grandma in a rocking chair talking about the good old days..but..ya, I was once there too. You are so lucky. http://parents.berkeley.edu/ I don't know if you've ever seen this site, but go sniffing around for what might be original thought for parent involvement, or just plain "attitude". (pain in the rear syndrome) It's interesting. I read there often. I'm about halfway thru this: (long, about 50 minutes) It's an interview with Vicki Ables, the creator of the documentary. I'm really trying to keep an open mind. A few notes marked so far: Sara Bennett of "Stop Homework" http://stophomework.com/ and something I'll briefly mention that has figured into our families experiences....there are schools out there, as in college...that have alternative systems of "grades" and performance.. This one has been a choice for several of the young adults in my immediate family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evergreen_State_College They do not issue grades. Edited July 22, 2011 by one*mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Wah! sniff..sniff... Good for you. (sob) I feel like a Grandma in a rocking chair talking about the good old days..but..ya, I was once there too. You are so lucky. http://parents.berkeley.edu/ I don't know if you've ever seen this site, but go sniffing around for what might be original thought for parent involvement, or just plain "attitude". (pain in the rear syndrome) It's interesting. I read there often. I'm about halfway thru this: (long, about 50 minutes) It's an interview with Vicki Ables, the creator of the documentary. I'm really trying to keep an open mind. If it makes you feel better, Alice Waters has nothing to do with our school lunches and our cafeteria serves the same crap that Jamie Oliver lambasted in this season of Food Revolution (from what I understand, not watching television). Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) I'm kinda hip on the whole Jamie Oliver/Alice Water scene. My kid takes lunch, ya. How about you? Two more resources from the Katie Couric interview: Vicki Abeles is on twitter (I'm a heavy user) - she is @RaceToNowhere She (Vicki Abeles) is a big fan of this study & book: http://www.amazon.com/Catching-Leading-Way-Education-Globalization/dp/1416608737 Catching Up or Leading the Way From the description: At a time when globalization and technology are dramatically altering the world we live in, is education reform in the United States headed down the right path? Are schools emphasizing the knowledge and skills that students need in a global society--or are they actually undermining their strengths by overemphasizing high-stakes testing and standardization? Are education systems in China and other countries really as superior as some people claim. These and other questions are at the heart of author Yong Zhao s thoughtful and informative book. Born and raised in China and now a distinguished professor at Michigan State University, Zhao bases many of his observations on firsthand experience as a student in China and as a parent of children attending school in the United States. His unique perspective leads him to conclude that American education is at a crossroads and we need to change course to maintain leadership in a rapidly changing world. To make his case, Zhao explains what's right with American education; why much of the criticism of schools in the United States has been misleading and misinformed; why China and other nations in Asia are actually reforming their systems to be more like their American counterparts; how globalization and the death of distance are affecting jobs and everyday life; and how the virtual world is transforming the economic and social landscape in ways far more profound than many people realize. Educators, policymakers, parents, and others interested in preparing students to be productive global citizens will gain a clear understanding of what kinds of knowledge and skills constitute digital competence and global competence, and what schools can--and must--do to meet the challenges and opportunities brought about by globalization and technology. About the author: http://www.amazon.com/Yong-Zhao/e/B001K1BSE0/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1 Yong Zhao is currently Presidential Chair and Associate Dean for Global Education, College of Education at the University of Oregon, where he also serves as the director of the Center for Advanced Technology in Education (CATE). He is a fellow of the International Academy for Education. Until December, 2010, Yong Zhao was University Distinguished Professor at the College of Education, Michigan State University, where he also served as the founding director of the Center for Teaching and Technology, executive director of the Confucius Institute, as well as the US-China Center for Research on Educational Excellence. His research interests include educational policy, computer gaming and education, diffusion of innovations, teacher adoption of technology, computer-assisted language learning, and globalization and education. Zhao has extensive international experiences. He has consulted with government and educational agencies and spoken on educational issues in many countries on six continents. His current work focuses on designing 21st Century Schools in the context of globalization and the digital revolution. Zhao has published over 20 books and 100 articles. His most recent book is Catching Up or Leading the Way: American Education in the Age of Globalization and the Handbook of Asian Education. He has also developed computer software, including the award-winning New Chengo/ZON (http://enterzon.com), the world's first massively multi-player online role-playing game for studying Chinese. Zhao was born in China's Sichuan Province. He received his B.A. in English Language Education from Sichuan Institute of Foreign Languages in Chongqing, China in 1986. After teaching English in China for six years, he came to Linfield College as a visiting scholar in 1992. He then began his graduate studies at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign in 1993. He received his A.M. in Education in 1994 and Ph.D. in 1996. He joined the faculty at MSU in 1996 after working as the Language Center Coordinator at Willamette University and a language specialist at Hamilton College. Yong is also available on twitter if you wanted to ask him something, he is: @YongZhaoUO Eugene, Oregon Presidential Chair, Associate Dean Global and Online Education, College of Education, University of Oregon http://zhaolearning.com Edited July 22, 2011 by one*mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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