Can we talk writing curriculum ?

[Elizabeth in MN]

I'm about to pull all my hair out over the whole writing issue. Since the beginning my daughter has had some hand issues. She was a late eater due to her being very left handed. Her drawing and learning to write have also been behind her peers in a noticeable way. She has just finished a cursive program for lefties and has beautiful penmanship.

 

Because of all these delays I have not done any formal writing or grammar program with her. We gave CW a go but she disliked it because in general she dislikes Aesop and fairy tales. I couldn't understand how the program worked and why I had to read two books to understand it. We gave up on CW. I did a lot of research and decided that Writing Strands would work well. It hasn't. She actually hates how the text talks down to her and expects her to make mistakes. I don't like it because it's just about creative writing, which my child can do in her sleep.

 

So yesterday I looked at WWE and FLL at the book store. Now, WWE 1 looked great but maybe too simple - remembering to stare a sentence with an upper case and end with the correct punctuation. But when I looked at WWE 3 it was all dictation and narration. Then the FLL books were all about diagramming, which is too advanced for my daughter.

 

What I want in a writing/composition/grammar curriculum is the ability to express herself in the written word. I don't need her to learn how to write a term paper just yet.

 

Is there anything out there like what I want?

[abbeyej]

You might look at the WWE text: The Complete Writer. Since your dd is older, she probably wouldn't need a whole year at each WWE level, but the text (as opposed to the workbooks) really lays out each of the steps (and *why*) for you, the teacher, then includes 6-8 weeks worth of lessons for each level. The idea is that you can then develop your own lesson plans for the intervening weeks, but I've found it also works well for older kids who need to work through the steps but can do so at a quicker pace. Just begin at the beginning (or in level 2, perhaps) and work through the lessons that are given (and skip the parts where it tells you to create X number of lessons for yourself based on the sample before moving on). If you do levels 2-4, you should have about 1 semester of work for her. If you find she hits a wall at some point, you could buy the WWE workbook for that level and let her go more slowly. If not, you could finish up the text in the fall, then move on to the first level of Writing With Skill (~5th grade level).

 

I also wouldn't assume that FLL3 is too advanced for her. I suspect that once she sat down and worked through the lessons (which don't assume much prior knowledge), she would be able to learn the material. On the other hand, you might try Rod & Staff instead. Perhaps consider level 3 as a starting point.

[starwarsmomma]

My 11 year old son is at the same writing level situation-- handwriting motor skills issue, dyslexia, struggling writer. He's VERY intelligent, just struggles with anything writing related.

 

I just bought Jump In but havent rec'd it yet. It was affordable enough that I felt worth the try. Lots of good reviews on it too.

 

Wish I had advice, just wanted to tell you that you're not alone! LOL

[lovemykids]

Not sure if this would fit the bill for you in the grammar department; I would say IEW. But Jump In or something like the Wordsmith series are also viable options (IMO). Wordsmith is not a standalone curriculum, but it’s meant to be used alongside LLATL (which is very good as well). You could either use Wordsmith to supplement something else, or just have your dd write about things that interest her. She could write stories, letters, summaries of favorite books, etc. Oftentimes it’s not that our children are reluctant writers per say, but it’s just that they don’t enjoy certain methodologies presented in some of the writing curricula that’s available.

 

I have also heard that Writing Skills has helped some children (I do not have experience with it). But my advice would be to make writing as enjoyable as possible. That way she can really open up and let her natural creativity flow onto the paper.

 

WWE text is another option, as was mentioned...there are quite a few very good options for you...

 

Good luck!

Edited July 12, 2011 by lovemykids

[Crimson Wife]

The Paragraph Book series from EPS minimizes the amount of physical writing required. It covers a bit of grammar but you'd still need to do some sort of formal grammar in addition.

[abbeyej]

...

I also wouldn't assume that FLL3 is too advanced for her. I suspect that once she sat down and worked through the lessons (which don't assume much prior knowledge), she would be able to learn the material. On the other hand, you might try Rod & Staff instead. Perhaps consider level 3 as a starting point.

 

Oh, another solid yet easy-to-begin-with grammar program is Calvert's grade 5 grammar workbook. (It's one of the few things they sell apart from their whole program -- they recommend it for older kids who come to Calvert and haven't gone through the 5th grade program.)

 

It's very simple, there's not a whole lot of writing, it's largely self-correcting, but it's also a very thorough introduction to basic English grammar. No diagramming.

 

Here's the link: http://homeschool.calvertschool.org/why-calvert/homeschool-enrichments/writing-and-grammar-courses They call it "Foundations in Grammar II". Don't be scared away by the grade level -- it's actually perfectly doable by most 3rd-5th graders. They just call it 6+ because of where they use it in their program and the recommendation that older kids work through it before beginning the other Calvert grades...

[HSMom2One]

You might look at the WWE text: The Complete Writer. Since your dd is older, she probably wouldn't need a whole year at each WWE level, but the text (as opposed to the workbooks) really lays out each of the steps (and *why*) for you, the teacher, then includes 6-8 weeks worth of lessons for each level. The idea is that you can then develop your own lesson plans for the intervening weeks, but I've found it also works well for older kids who need to work through the steps but can do so at a quicker pace. Just begin at the beginning (or in level 2, perhaps) and work through the lessons that are given (and skip the parts where it tells you to create X number of lessons for yourself based on the sample before moving on). If you do levels 2-4, you should have about 1 semester of work for her. If you find she hits a wall at some point, you could buy the WWE workbook for that level and let her go more slowly. If not, you could finish up the text in the fall, then move on to the first level of Writing With Skill (~5th grade level).

 

I also wouldn't assume that FLL3 is too advanced for her. I suspect that once she sat down and worked through the lessons (which don't assume much prior knowledge), she would be able to learn the material. On the other hand, you might try Rod & Staff instead. Perhaps consider level 3 as a starting point.

 

This would be my own inclination if I were in your place. Both SWB's methods in the Complete Writer series and R&S are solid programs that would provide everything your dd needs. Although in saying that, I think I'd take the recommendation to teach writing that is integrated with other subjects, such as science and history, or use WWE combine with just the grammar portion of R&S because their writing exercises aren't all that great. You can learn more about these ideas by listening to SWB's audio lectures on writing found here. I got a lot out of listening just recently and feel that I'm much better prepared to handle writing this year than ever before.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[5LittleMonkeys]

My favorite combo has become, R&S English along with Insitute for Excellence in Writing \ Teaching Writing Structure and Style (to teach you how to teach or Student Writing Intensives to teach directly to your student.)

 

If she has had no formal grammar up to this point I would start with level 4. You can go to the website and look at samples of each and read their placement advice to get a better idea of where you would like to place her. I love R&S English and apparantly my dc do as well. I recently switched over to CLE thinking my dc would enjoy a workbook approach and a break from such an intensive grammar study for a year but after a couple of weeks they asked to go back to R&S. I thought my oldest was going to stick to the CLE but she just came to me this morning and said she was "so done" with it and wanted to switch back too. It is thorough, has clear and precise explanantions, lots of review and can be tweaked to suit your teaching style. You can also use it to facilitate an exposure of grammar or use it exactly as written and use the extra worksheets and tests to ensure a solid understanding. The student text is non-comsumable so it can be used for your younger dc. It is very affordable.

 

IEW is expensive. I held off buying it for a long, long time but in the end I went ahead and got it and I am soooo happy that I did. I have watched half of the TWSS and I feel so much more confident to teach writing now. I still believe in writing across the curriculum as outlined in WTM but it always felt like there was something missing as far as how to teach style and how to move beyond simply re-phrasing of what has been read, such as what is prescribed by SWB in her writing lectures. My two oldest have been working through the first few sections of SWI B and I have had no whining, no complaints and writing is actually getting done.

 

I know there are tons of other grammar and writing programs out there that I haven't tried but of those I have these two are my favorites. Good Luck in finding what works best for you and your dd.:001_smile:

[redsquirrel]

yes, listen to SWB lectures on writing. I have found them so, so helpful. You should start with the elementary level lecture and then move to the middle years lecture.

 

You might also want to read the introduction to The Complete Writer: Instructor Text. It is a PDF at Peace Hill Press.

[Testimony]

I did SWI-B with my son this past year. He did Classical Writing Homer the year before and SWI-B is soooo much easier. He was able to figure out what they wanted. It gives you a check list. Oh, it is so much nicer to have the DVDs which were funny. My son laughed. I wanted to throw the book out with Classical Writing. IEW's SWI-B saved my life. It is not as expensive as getting the whole TWSS part. I am grateful to the Lord for IEW. I did Rod and Staff English 6 with IEW's SWI-B. I feel that is a great combination.

 

Blessings to you in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Elizabeth in MN]

I think I am going to give the SWB stuff a chance. Price is a major deciding factor for me. The Rod and Staff books look decent, but my daughter would be put off by all the talk about God (long story).

 

These are the days that make me long to be the kind of person that could use an all in one box...

 

Thank you all so much for your advice!

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, before we had FLL and WWE, we had SWB's advice about how to teach writing, and it was really, really good.

 

Copywork. Dictation. Writing Strands. Subject area writing--summaries, easy experiment write ups, progressing toward literary writing in the logic stage, using history and literature as a spring board for applying writing skills learned elsewhere OR as a means of teaching those skills...these have all worked really, really well for me.

 

I strongly suggest that you go back to the METHODS, not just the recommended curricula, taught in TWTM, and get the SWB writing CD, and then do this yourself. Your daughter is not going to fit neatly into a curriculum, but you can teach her right at her level and help her progress very, very well. Writing Strands 4 would be good to have around, but if I were you I would go back to those basics and then teach writing yourself, using the literature you're reading anyway.

[lovemykids]

You know, before we had FLL and WWE, we had SWB's advice about how to teach writing, and it was really, really good.

 

Copywork. Dictation. Writing Strands. Subject area writing--summaries, easy experiment write ups, progressing toward literary writing in the logic stage, using history and literature as a spring board for applying writing skills learned elsewhere OR as a means of teaching those skills...these have all worked really, really well for me.

 

I strongly suggest that you go back to the METHODS, not just the recommended curricula, taught in TWTM, and get the SWB writing CD, and then do this yourself. Your daughter is not going to fit neatly into a curriculum, but you can teach her right at her level and help her progress very, very well. Writing Strands 4 would be good to have around, but if I were you I would go back to those basics and then teach writing yourself, using the literature you're reading anyway.

 

Yes, and if you also remember, SWB recommended Wordsmith as an optional writing program. Because that’s what we did for a few years; until I started getting a bit more into the plethora of optional writing curriculums. But, oh, is it fun. I love a good smorgasbord of curricula to choose from. :lol:

 

 

I think SWB’s programs make a wonderful choice. Have fun!:D (don't forget to look into Wordsmith since Writing Strands isn't working for your dd-you could use it in conjunction with SWB's stuff)

[Capt_Uhura]

If it were my daughter, I'd give her the WWE placement test which can be found on the Peacehill press website. See where she places. If she places low, for ex: WWE1 or 2, I would get the WWE textbook (not student book) which covers years 1-4. IT gives you 10weeks of lessons, and then you use your own resources for the next block. It gives you things to look for ie passages w/ proper nouns etc. Using the textbook, you can accelerate her quickly as she acquires the skills. She may only need a 10w block before being able to move to WWE2 for example.

 

After that, I'd look at WWS. SWB doesn't talk down to the student. It's written to the student but there is a teacher book to help you guide your student. It takes your student from writing from notes given (history, science, lit) to writing her own notes. You can easily, easily transfer this to your own history and science. Once you see SWB's methods, it is easily transferrable to anything.

[Lori D.]

I have to confess: I am NOT a fan of the "all-in-one" programs (i.e., include all the language arts in one program) because I just don't think they are able to give the best to EACH and ALL of the language arts topics...

 

 

Since DD is a delayed writer, perhaps just getting her to *like* writing is an important first step. Our younger DS has always struggled with writing and so disliked anything to do with writing. Wordsmith Apprentice was a wonderful, very gentle, and fun/corny introduction into writing that he really enjoyed. It has a "cub reporter" theme in which the student slowly builds up in amount of writing by writing for the different departments of a newspaper. The program starts off with writing words and phrases, moves to sentences, and then paragraphs; we were able to break the exercises into even smaller chunks as needed, quite easily. Each new section is introduced with a silly 1-page cartoon which introduces you to a new "newspaper department" -- which also introduces the student to different types of writing; for example, the classified ads requires descriptive writing; telling the story of what happened in a newspaper article is narrative writing; editorials are persuasive writing; etc. Miraculously, not ONCE did DS ever complain doing Wordsmith Apprentice -- and this is the child who found it torture to write a 3-word sentence. :tongue_smilie:

 

Some other *informal* ideas to spark an enjoyment of writing:

 

- Write a "back and forth" story:

Each day, or several times a week, you each get 3 turns; first one of you writes a sentence (the start of the new paragraph), and then the other gets to add the next sentence, alternating turns until you have a new 6-sentence paragraph added to the overall story. Be sure to add illustrations once in awhile, and at the end of the semester or year or whenever the story is done, make an illustrated cover and have it spiral- or comb-bound at the local print shop.

 

- Silent conversation:

Leave a notebook out on the counter, and have Dad (or you, or an older sibling, etc.) write something each day and leave it for DD to find. Then at some point during the day she writes something back. Let the conversation unfold naturally -- i.e., sometimes the participants only write a few words or a sentence, and other times a long paragraph. Ideas to include in a conversation:

- jokes and riddles

- a short narrative of something that happened that day (or at Dad's work)

- a short poem or limerick (Ogden Nash is fun!)

- an open-ended question (ex: what would be your menu for a special birthday meal?)

- a short descriptive paragraph of a bird or plant you sighted or how the snow and cold felt that morning, etc. (descriptive writing, using words to evoke the senses)

- ask a question that requires using examples which will help build towards essay-writing later on (ex: Can you list 3 reasons why the Trix Rabbit should get to eat Trix cereal? What animal makes the best pet and WHY do you think that?)

 

 

If liking writing is not an issue, how about a simple "how to" program such as Four Square Writing; Just Write; or one of the Write Source books (Writer's Express is the 4th/5th grade book). Not a match for everyone, but we very successfully used Winston Grammar for the grammar instruction and various materials for the grammar usage and mechanics aspect. I mention this because "leftie" students are often right-brained or visual spatial learners (VSL) -- our DS who struggles with writing is VSL -- and they often do better with NON-traditional programs (traditional programs = CW, WWE, FLL, Rod & Staff, etc.), and connect better with the Michael Clay Thompson language arts materials, Wordsmith Apprentice, Jump In, Mad Libs, Schoolhouse Rock: Grammar, Comicstrip Grammar and Comicstrip Writing, etc.

 

Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Lori D.
added links; added a clarification

[lovemykids]

I have to confess: I am NOT a fan of the "all-in-one" programs (i.e., include all the language arts in one program) because I just don't think they are able to give the best to EACH and ALL of the language arts topics...

 

 

Since DD is a delayed writer, perhaps just getting her to *like* writing is an important first step. Our younger DS has always struggled with writing and so disliked anything to do with writing. Wordsmith Apprentice was a wonderful, very gentle, and fun/corny introduction into writing that he really enjoyed. It has a "cub reporter" theme in which the student slowly builds up in amount of writing by writing for the different departments of a newspaper. The program starts off with writing words and phrases, moves to sentences, and then paragraphs; we were able to break the exercises into even smaller chunks as needed, quite easily. Each new section is introduced with a silly 1-page cartoon which introduces you to a new "newspaper department" -- which also introduces the student to different types of writing; for example, the classified ads requires descriptive writing; telling the story of what happened in a newspaper article is narrative writing; editorials are persuasive writing; etc. Miraculously, not ONCE did DS ever complain doing Wordsmith Apprentice -- and this is the child who found it torture to write a 3-word sentence. :tongue_smilie:

 

Some other *informal* ideas to spark an enjoyment of writing:

 

- Write a "back and forth" story:

Each day, or several times a week, you each get 3 turns; first one of you writes a sentence (the start of the new paragraph), and then the other gets to add the next sentence, alternating turns until you have a new 6-sentence paragraph added to the overall story. Be sure to add illustrations once in awhile, and at the end of the semester or year or whenever the story is done, make an illustrated cover and have it spiral- or comb-bound at the local print shop.

 

- Silent conversation:

Leave a notebook out on the counter, and have Dad (or you, or an older sibling, etc.) write something each day and leave it for DD to find. Then at some point during the day she writes something back. Let the conversation unfold naturally -- i.e., sometimes the participants only write a few words or a sentence, and other times a long paragraph. Ideas to include in a conversation:

- jokes and riddles

- a short narrative of something that happened that day (or at Dad's work)

- a short poem or limerick (Ogden Nash is fun!)

- an open-ended question (ex: what would be your menu for a special birthday meal?)

- a short descriptive paragraph of a bird or plant you sighted or how the snow and cold felt that morning, etc. (descriptive writing, using words to evoke the senses)

- ask a question that requires using examples which will help build towards essay-writing later on (ex: Can you list 3 reasons why the Trix Rabbit should get to eat Trix cereal? What animal makes the best pet and WHY do you think that?)

 

 

If liking writing is not an issue, how about a simple "how to" program such as Four Square Writing; Just Write; or one of the Write Source books (Writer's Express is the 4th/5th grade book). Not a match for everyone, but we very successfully used Winston Grammar for the grammar instruction and various materials for the grammar usage and mechanics aspect. I mention this because "leftie" students are often right-brained or visual spatial learners (VSL) -- our DS who struggles with writing is VSL -- and they often do better with NON-traditional programs (CW, WWE, FLL, Rod & Staff, etc.), and connect better with the Michael Clay Thompson language arts materials, Wordsmith Apprentice, Jump In, Mad Libs, Schoolhouse Rock: Grammar, Comicstrip Grammar and Comicstrip Writing, etc.

 

Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Excellent advice.

:thumbup:

 

Lori has wonderful tips on teaching a child with these problems. I have been reading her posts with interest for the past few years. Maybe I should do a search and see what she does for math- ack.

 

 

LLATL has been helpful for some kids that are on this “spectrumâ€. I think it’s because it uses a whole to part method and it also uses a variety of activities in the early years. So it’s not just writing, circling, underlining and so forth; it’s much more. (For some kids it may be too much. I would generally recommend LLATL for a younger child with these problems.) But I wholeheartedly agree that all in one programs will not get the entire job done sufficiently. Supplementing is very necessary, which for most people, defeats the purpose. All that is needed is to omit certain assignments that are redundant.

 

Another all in one type program that has recently piqued my interest is WP LA.

 

 

I would sit down with your dd and really let her examine these different programs. She is old enough to help in the decision process.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I've ended up ordering Wordsmith Apprentice and am going to start doing dictation and narration with Miss A. There is a nagging feeling I am missing something, but I have no idea what it could be. The iron and stove are both off ; )

[lovemykids]

I've ended up ordering Wordsmith Apprentice and am going to start doing dictation and narration with Miss A. There is a nagging feeling I am missing something, but I have no idea what it could be. The iron and stove are both off ; )

 

That's wonderful, I hope she enjoys it.

 

I would ask her what she wants to write about, or choose an idea from Lori above. I also had my dd write simple summaries of books that she read and enjoyed. Have fun!

[smillard00]

We do LCC too. :001_smile:

 

Please don't discount the value of doing copywork, dictation, and narrations--both written and verbal. Having SWB's book there to help would be good too. With her "uneven" skills and writing delays, going back to the basics will probably be a better fit for her than a curriculum. You're covering a lot of different subjects already, but this would fit in and work with what you're already doing.

[Elizabeth in MN]

We do LCC too. :001_smile:

 

Please don't discount the value of doing copywork, dictation, and narrations--both written and verbal. Having SWB's book there to help would be good too. With her "uneven" skills and writing delays, going back to the basics will probably be a better fit for her than a curriculum. You're covering a lot of different subjects already, but this would fit in and work with what you're already doing.

 

Oh, we'll be doing dictation and narration too. Miss A just came to me and told me she wants to shoot little movies that are a reenactment of books she's read. She's talking about doing one for "The Midwife's Apprentice", which she just finished. Now she does type up script outlines in advance so to me that counts as narration and writing. Spelling isn't an issue for her, but getting her to look things up in the dictionary can be. We're also going to drop Christian Studies and just plain read the Golden Children's Bible and *gasp* talk about it. That should help with narration and comprehension too.