Can we talk frankly about a difficult topic?

[JennifersLost]

I.e. - having less money than you thought you would at this time of life?

 

This isn't a poor me post - I know many others are in my boat, and that some others might wish they were in my boat, but there is a real issue here I bet some of you women could discuss with me.

 

Remember the old saying a father would use on a prospective son-in-law? "How do you intend to keep my daughter in the manner to which she is accustomed?"

 

No one asks that question anymore, because we women are supposed to be keeping ourselves in the manner to which we are accustomed, but what if no matter what your dh or you are making, you are not living in the manner to which you were accustomed as a child?

 

I think a number of our generation has not been as successful as our parents were. I always assumed I would be, or at least that me and my chosen mate would manage it together. I never thought I'd take so many years off work, or that I'd have children, or that I'd move so much....

 

But here we are, and while we've set things up for ourselves fairly well, with some pretty amazing perks, we're not keeping up with my parents by a long shot.

 

I'm beginning to understand how poorly prepared I am to accept this. We could still pull it off, I guess, but my children don't have quite as cushy a life as I had and it's almost too late for them to get it, either, as children.

 

Dh always reminds me when we talk about expanding our budget that we should be careful - it's much harder to pull back from spending than it is to initiate it. He's living a much richer life as an adult than he did as a kid, so he seems to be more grateful for and comfortable with what we have. I admit I too often dwell on what we don't have - the things I just assume everyone should have based on how I lived as a child.

 

Who else struggles with this? I try so hard to focus on abundance, to say my "thankfuls", to shop at the consignment store and be happy with the time I get to spend with my kids instead of working, but boy....I take this lack of cash as a personal insult sometimes!

 

I'm hoping that this thread doesn't lead to finger-pointing. As a group we are masters at thriftiness, at loving life and counting our blessings. Can we just be "real" for a moment about expectations and circumstances, and maybe give each other "real" suggestions for living with what we have?

[MelissaM]

Sometimes it's a matter of age. It's common now for 25yo to try to live the lifestyle their parents have at 50. KWIM? It takes time to learn to manage money and time to raise a job situation.

 

On the flip there are simply times when our dh do not make financially what our parents made at the same station. It can be frustrating but in the end they will probably be fine with it. Some of the most miserable people I know of grew up with loads of money and privilege and yet they are, well, miserable.

[MelissaM]

while I know how very fortunate I am to be able to be at home with my dc I do get tired of pinching pennies.

 

I didn't mean to sound so preachy before. It's hard to express humor/tone in writing.

[j.griff]

I didn't have much growing up, I've been tired of always having less for a very long time. I grew up without a door on my bedroom, and the only bathroom in the house was accessible only by going through my bedroom. I had no privacy. Every toy I ever had, my aunt also got. I never had anything that was just mine, I never had the same things other kids had. My aunt (a few years older than me) would get $100 at least, each weekend to go buy new clothes, and since my mom drove her and my grandma and other aunt when they went shopping, I had to tag along with maybe $1 or $2, sometimes $5 and watch my aunt shop for clothes or whatever new thing she wanted. It was a horrible exerience. To top it off, I got to hear my grandma talk about how they were so poor and didn't have much, meanwhile they were adding on rooms to their home, giving my aunt $100 to shop each weekend, etc. Ugh.

(I am not trying to guilt anyone here about having more than I did, I'm just expressing how long I've been frustrated with the lack of funds). I wasn't a brat about it, if my parents said no to something I asked for, I accepted it and didn't whine and beg for it- I knew we didn't have the money and there was no use in making my parents feel bad about it. They felt bad enough already. My dad is/was a very hard worker too, he just never made as much money per hour as other peoples dads.

I am thankful now to have rooms for my children with doors, but I would really like to be able to afford all the classes, activities, gas for field trips, "good" food, nice clothes, nice vehicles, etc. It stinks seeing other people have/do things that we just aren't able to do. My BIL and SIL have two children, and they do not homeschool. They have a huge 5 bedroom house with a 3 car garage, their children are always in the nicest clothes and have always been in nice activities that we've never been able to afford- gymnastics, little league, dance, etc.

While my current situation is much better than mine was growing up, I really wish I could do much better for my children than I am able- especially my oldest. By the time we'll be able to do those things, she will be technically an "adult". <sigh>.

[Tess in the Burbs]

We have so much debt and with me home, very little way to it off. With kids, we always need something and I am so tired of always saying we have no money. We don't though. I hate it, and know it's part of this phase of life, but it's hard mentally. Dh makes good money but we just bought a house and have two car payments and that debt to always pay on. We have very little extra and feel like each month is getting worse as food costs rise!

 

I do know that I had a good middle class upbringing but as an adult I realize how much my parents sacrificed. My mom worked off and on over the years, so I understand when it was tight and she needed to work she did. My husband would rather get a second job than have me out there. He wants me home with the kids full time. So I suppose with that attitude he can't gripe about having no extra money huh?

 

But yes, I wonder sometimes why we put ourselves in this situation. If I had been working how would it have been different? But I know there is where I need to be....home with the kids. For now. College is coming and I can certainly work then and get us where we need to be. Until then I try to appreciate the blessings of being home.

 

You are not alone.

[OhM]

Sometimes it's a matter of age. It's common now for 25yo to try to live the lifestyle their parents have at 50. KWIM?

 

 

I've been having thoughts similar to yours, Jennifer, but more along the lines of "We're not where we could be if we had been more careful." And Melissa's quote here hits it on the head for us - at 25 we were trying to live like someone who'd lived carefully, saved, avoided debt, etc., for 30+ years but we hadn't!

 

I guess I'm more like your husband - I grew up with less, so what we have now is more than satisfying to me. But we're living much poorer that we could be if we'd avoided debt, not had so much house payment so soon (not that it's extravagant - but it could have been more modest), not bought new cars when used would have sufficed, you know the drill.

 

I guess I'm just kicking myself for our immaturity. Which is maybe not really what you're asking about?

 

Maybe the answer is in a (what I thought was horrifying) conversation I had with my daughter's then-10yo friend. She was talking about boys she liked and who liked her. She mentioned a sweet but goofy boy we knew who asked her "to go with" him. (I won't go into all my opinions about boys and girls "going together" in 5th grade. Moving along...) I asked her what she said, and her response (rolled eyes and all) was, "Eewww, no! My mom says stay away from him - he won't be a very good provider."

 

10 years old - not a good provider. I was floored. Of course, in my simple world, this was low on the list when evaluating potential dates, and I wouldn't dream of judging my dds' potential dates on that criteria. But apparently some (many?) people do. What about true love? Love conquers all? We'll live on love? Apparently there are 10yo's out there who are more mature(?) about such matters than me? So maybe that "supporting my daughter in the manner to which she's accustomed" mindset isn't really gone yet?

 

I do know families who are where I think I "ought" to be - I know in almost all cases they've worked very hard to get there - some were ruthless about saving, others worked their butts off - 70-80 hour weeks, etc., none got there by any means other than hard work. I can see what they did differently than we did, and though I sometimes have pangs of - what? guilt? panic? shame? - that we're not "there", I can't say I'm unhappy with how we got to be "here".

 

Sorry for the babbling. Maybe the issues I've been pondering aren't really the same as yours - but what you said reminded me of what's been in the back of my mind lately. I'm interested to read others' responses. Thanks for asking the question.

[Rhondabee]

OH, wow. Mega-dittos here. Both on the "why didn't we do the wise things we said we were", and to be floored by people who actually considered "being a (really good) provider" a necessity of even going out on a first date.

 

I was in college when a friend broke up with her boyfriend when (and because) he failed to get in medical school. I guess she had the confidence to believe that somebody richer than he would come along sooner or later. (And he did; much, much later.)

 

I never thought about that because I knew I had more than my mom and dad did when they grew up, and I really just figured nobody really cared how much money anybody made. (Of course, I grew up in a suburb of cookie-cutter houses, where everyone all had pretty much exactly the same lifestyle; and that's really the only income level I had any knowledge of.)

 

So, I've been shocked and hurt by Christmases and birthdays especially, and by the fact that even at church, $$$ DOES matter. And, by the fact that even though we live in a bigger house than what I grew up in, because everything is so much "more" than that now, we still haven't "arrived". Having siblings who have really excelled (who vacation abroad two or three times a year, and send their kids to private school, and always have the best of everything I've never even heard of), has been the hardest. Our own success *feels* like failure - though I certainly wouldn't consider anyone living in my subdivision a "failure" at life, ya know?

 

Understanding ya,

Rhonda

 

(And, on a personal vent - why is it that people who make *so* much more money than we give our kids the cheapest Christmas presents, but expect really nice ones in return? And, why can't they train their kids to at least say Thank You?)

 

whew- that's better!

[JennifersLost]

that the killer part of all of this is that I grew up thinking I was poor! (LOL!)

 

Because everyone ELSE I knew had a house in the new part of town, fancier clothes, fancier cars and belonged to the country club. I thought we were the low men on the totem pole. Little did I know.....

 

In other words, I didn't enjoy it when I had it!

[Sunny]

We don't live like our parents. However, I'm not sure that I ever had that motto in my head, "How do you intend to keep my daughter in the manner to which she is accustomed?" I can't imagine a father asking a son-in-law this question!

 

I remember stories of my parents/grandparents that when they got married, they struggled to have a broom and a mop! Those were big deals back then. Today, I don't think there is many of us that are struggling to have such basic items. We are a consumer society, and I'm sure we could pick up a broom from someone's trashcan if we really needed one.

 

So, what I'm trying to say is, why is it expected that we should have any easier of a start in married life?

Living as one has become accustomed to at "home" is outrageous of an idea. Our parents have had a full life of career by the time we are getting ready for marriage. THey probably have nice homes and some fun things, and have been taking vacations. For us to start life in a new career, one income is impossible to live like we may have been accustomed to. Even living with my single mom was more than what I had when I got married. My mom struggled our growing up. It wasn't easy. And, it still never crossed my mind that it would be any different for me, especially choosing to be a SAHM.

 

This is not to say that it makes it any easier that every week, every month of the year is hard to keep going with a budget that never seems to have room for fun. We're into the 15th year of marriage, and we're starting over in a new town, new business. But, I'm so glad we're not living in the times of my grandparents and the Great Depression. I'm glad I'm not a Pioneer moving west with a family in a wagon. I'm glad I'm not a Puritan coming overseas with a trunk of all my important possessions, heading for the unknown.

 

yep, It is good to recount our blessings rather than dwell on the hard and depressing. I'm not sure that because of the life style we chose, that we'll ever accomplish what our parents have today, but I can stand in humble accomplishment that I'm doing something my parents would have never even considered, stay at home with kids all day and take responsiblity for what they learn. I think they have great respect for our choices, and know how hard it is today to live with the means we have today.

 

BTW, just interesting tidbit, our parents lived in some of the most amazing times. Most of our parents bought houses that probably cost less than $40k. Today, their homes have increased in value by outrageous percentages. Are they worth $300k now? $500K? Depends on where in the country, but this is amazing appreciation. We will never see such appreciation.

[Doran]

....here we are, and while we've set things up for ourselves fairly well, with some pretty amazing perks, we're not keeping up with my parents by a long shot.

 

I absolutely struggle with money issues. And, I will probably get long winded and a bit convoluted in the process of describing how, so bear with me.

 

My father was a very successful small business owner in the early 70's. He hit the boom, when our country's economy was skyrocketing, and people were getting rich all over. My mother never worked after she had us three children (ages 55 - 45). Our parents took us vacationing all over the country, we ate out often, had nothing but new clothing, our college tuition was paid in full by my father. Our house (the last one we lived in together) was big and built especially to my parents' design. It was in a prestigious neighborhood with easy access to the Country Club swimming pool where we were members. I was involved in just about any activity I ever expressed interest in. It never occurred to me that those things might be expensive. I would not say that we were "spoiled" children, because my mother was/is such a practical woman, and so frugal (despite her advantaged position in life), that she didn't splurge on things like toys or overly marketed products (she despised Ralph Lauren when shirts with horses on the front became all the rage!). I also learned how it was important, when you shared lunch with friends, to split the check very carefully, so you didn't have to pay for more than you should. And how to leave a 15% tip to the penny. There was plenty of discipline in my family. But, I wanted for little.

 

My brothers, now, mimic that lifestyle (as do, I might add, most of my former grade school girlfriends). One brother is a muckity-muck banker, the other a corporate atty. Their wives are gainfully employed, and one makes more money (I think) than her husband. They believe they've earned their money and that government "handouts" are mostly for people who don't try hard enough. They have no idea (only my mother knew) that when my kids were small, we got Medical Assistance and were part of the WIC program. I am faced with the stark contrast between my family of origin each and every time I visit "home".

 

My husband is a self employed craftsman in a business that is steady and provides for our family. He goes in to work almost every single day, including Sundays. We pay our bills, but we are not saving money. I have spent all of my children's lives working at least a little, first at the farm, now writing. Since leaving the farm job, I need another source of income to supplement our current existence. We're not exactly sure how we're going to manage the mortgage we will have on our new home, assuming it finally gets built. I buy cheap wine and I shop at Goodwill. We don't vacation. No, I no longer live the life to which I was accustomed.

 

....Can we just be "real" for a moment about expectations and circumstances, and maybe give each other "real" suggestions for living with what we have?

 

 

But, there is an upside to all this. Actually, there are several. For one, I now understand, appreciate, and respect in ways I never could have before just what it's like to be a hard working, intelligent, frugal family who still can't make ends meet. I have more compassion for the single mothers, and for the fathers who have been laid off, for the ones who can't afford insurance, and the ones who use food stamps in front of me at the grocery store. I am especially sensitive to the plight of the elderly.

 

You see, my parents' lives took a major hit when my dad was in his mid-50's. His business partners forced him out of the company. It was excruciating and ugly, though I was too naive to appreciate what was happening at the time. It cut my father to the core. Never again would he hold a truly fulfilling, viable position in the work force, in part because his expectations were too high. He expected to be in charge of another company some day, could not imagine working for someone else, would not stoop to take "just any job", and so, he didn't work. He looked. And he waited, always expecting his "community" of wealthy friends and business owners to offer him the perfect situation. He tried a few things here and there. He served as interim director of the local United Way for awhile. He tried to resurrect a failing business, but it went under anyway. Time went by. His confidence fell. He was home and underfoot. My parents' lives changed completely. They never really recovered, and now, as old people, they are struggling financially and emotionally. They aren't always sure how the medical bills will get paid. They can't afford the kind of "elder care" that they truly need. They see, for the first time, how hard it is to live on less. And, it is not a transition they are able to make gracefully at this point in their lives. For years, they continued to live in the style to which they were accustomed, even though there was no longer any income. My father understood long before my mother how dangerous this was. He pushed her to agree to sell their little mountain cottage. And, then later, much later, he begged her to agree to move from their dream house to a small town home.

 

As for us - I know my husband would be miserable in a corporate job. He loves his work, and he chose to pursue his career with the full knowledge that it would not be as lucrative as some other choice. But, he wanted to do what he wanted to do. To his credit, he could probably always find work building things, even if the economy collapsed. And now, thanks to my farming career, I could grow food. Our children are learning, by watching us, what it means to be hard working, how much things cost, how hard it is to make ends meet for most of America, and even more so for most of the world. They have come to understand about over consumption, about greed, and about protecting the planet. They are already finding ways to earn money, particularly the oldest. That's something I never did as a child.

 

When I decide against a particular curriculum or program for my kids because I feel we can't afford it (which I do often, btw), I remind myself that they don't have to have those things in order to be compassionate, educated people. I try (and you may know that this is one of my biggest struggles) to only look as far as my own happiness in determining how well or how poorly I'm doing. It does me no good to compare myself to others, because even though some may have more money, it's no given that they are happier. It only seems so from the outside looking in. I learned a small trick from a friend some years ago. When I find a penny in the road, I pick it up and keep it, remembering that this is the Universe's way of telling me that all will be well, that there is abundance. When I find a dime, I do a little dance of thankfulness.

 

"Worry is the interest paid on trouble before it falls due." (Inge) I find that most of my money issues stem from worry. I'm much better if I simply live, working to the best of my ability, and believing that, even though my path is completely different than that of my parents', it is MY path, and it is, therefore, the right one for me.

 

Doran

[Rebecca in GA]

I agree with much of what's been said here and add that when my dad was in the midst of his 30-plus-year career with the same company, there was the "stay here and retire rich" philosophy. Very, very few companies expect a lifetime of service out of their employees now and offer very few incentives to keep them loyal.

 

I'd love to say I'm always satisfied with our level of living, but the truth is that I'm not. Comparison is the death of contentment (sorry, can't remember the source of that quote), and it's tough to see how other people live sometimes and not get the "I wants."

 

Remember the feeding of the 5,000 in the Bible? Even if you're not Christian, the symbolism is potent: Jesus was thankful for the five loaves and two fishes, and that made it enough.

 

I *try* to remember that when I'm struggling. But I'm fairly certain that no matter what my income and/or position, there would always, always be something out of reach for me. So I feel your pain, sister. :(

[Happy]

I wish we hadn't been so stupid with our money as young marrieds. Or, heck, as older marrieds. :D

 

I wish I had worked more and invested more in my twenties before children.

I wish my dh's industry wasn't so prone to unemployment. Three times during the last fifteen years!

And I wish adoption credits had been available when we adopted. I wish we had bought a starter home earlier.

 

We have always had more than my parent's did, but they were better with their money than we were at the same ages. Dh's parents had more of a feast or famine approach to money. Either they had lots or had just lost lots.

 

For a long while, I really bought into the consumerism of the eighties and nineties. We had lots of cash 'flow' but didn't divert much into investing. There were times that we scraped and saved just to provide the basics for our kiddoes. Being in debt made our lives miserable.

 

In both our families, marrying for love and a lifetime is the only option.

 

We live in a VERY affluenate area. At the gas station today, my almost 90,000 miles Dodge was surrounded my a BMW, a Caddy Escalade, a Lexus SUV, and a Chevy Tahoe...all looking spiffy and new. For most folks in our area, a 2500 sq. ft house is considered 'small.' It can be discouraging to always be the ones who aren't as well off as the others even though we rank in the top 3% of the world. Sigh. I think I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd.

 

Add to that, that my parents died at 47 and 55, and we have always feared that I would die young, too. We have done the vacations (simple ones), spent money we didn't have, because my dh didn't want that guilt if something happened to me. We wanted to build as many memories as we could together with our boys.

 

God has placed incredible opportunities in our lives. We've traveled more than most folks and had a the chance to live a while in Europe. My parents never set foot outside the US.

 

I feel blest. And I promise to handle money better every day. More importantly, I'm teaching my sons to handle money better!!!!!!!!

[Jenny in Atl]

In some ways we live better than my parents; my kids know their dad as mine was gone all the time working 24/7 in the advertising world. However, we have been slammed with medical issues and the money that sucks from you. We are self employed so our insurance is ridiculous (expensive and covers little). Every time we feel we are climbing out of the debt hole, something brakes or some other medical issue pops up. Things change, and no one is guaranteed a certain kind of life. I always tell my girls that we are still doing so much better that the vast majority of the world's population. I have seen true poverty and very few of us, at least in the US, come close. It can be hard when the T.V. and movies make you feel as if everyone has it all but you.

[Audrey]

Can we just be "real" for a moment about expectations and circumstances, and maybe give each other "real" suggestions for living with what we have?

 

To me it has to be a matter of perspective. I figured, not too long ago, that I am never going to be happy with what I have unless I make the effort to be happy with it. I don't know if I'm better off or worse off than my parents were (they're both deceased now, so present realities aren't comparable, obviously). I don't know if we were poor as kids. Maybe we were. We didn't ever have the biggest house or the best clothes or the fanciest cars, but I grew up in WPB, FL, so comparing what we had to the uber-wealthy is just completely self-defeating. :(

 

The bottom line is that we had what we had, and we were a happy, loving family. That's what I'm shooting for with my own family now -- nothing more, nothing less. I decided that my life cannot be about money. Our family will not be defined by anyone else, and it certainly won't be defined by money.

 

We do not have new cars, a fancy house, and lots of travel like many people we see around here, but that is not our priority. We do not want to go to the grave leaving a massive debt for our son to clean up. So... instead of worrying about how we "compare" to other people, we just plod along, paying off our stupid debts :rolleyes: and trying to save as best we can.

 

It took a big attitude change for me to get to this point. I had to live in my own reality, and stop defining myself according to other people's realities.

 

That's about as 'real' as I can get. :)

[Kate CA]

Very, very few companies expect a lifetime of service out of their employees now and offer very few incentives to keep them loyal.(

 

This is *so* true. Even if you want to stay at a company for life it is not always possible. I don't really understand that mindset to be honest. My dh is such a hard worker yet he really has to fight every day to keep them aware that he is there for them - will do whatever. It is kind of disgusting to see the lack of appreciation for someone who *will* go to the mat for them. It is almost like they have never seen someone like that before therefore they are not going to support it.

 

It just leaves me floored some days.

 

I am so grateful he is employed, but I sure would be thrilled if they "got it" sometimes.

 

Warmly,

Kate

[BabyBre]

I admire your courage, Jennifer, in posting such a provocative question, but I'm surprised at the responses. I do understand wanting to sound off. We're just now beginning to feel like we're "arriving" financially, and for years we pinched pennies and felt like we "sacrificed". Now I realize that all we sacrificed were luxuries we were always trained to want, want, want - new furniture, new cars, new clothes, bigger family vacations, getting my hair colored, joining a gym, etc. All things not necessary to our survival as a family, nor ultimately to our happiness.

 

This society has been trained to think that you can "have it all" right now without having to work for it (case in point: the average American consumer's credit card debt), that we're very impatient when we discover that it does require work. Patience is absolutely critical in saving (and I'm talking about years of patience). If you're not saving, you're not getting anywhere. Do you pay your savings and retirement accounts as diligently as you pay your electric bill? Do you borrow money (aka use a credit card) for things that are not necessities? (Do you have to use a credit card for necessities because your money's spent on your mortgage or your car payments? Downgrade - you're living outside your means.) It's become so acceptable to have things that few people realize they can't afford them.

 

If my family's finances were in my hands, we would have been run into the ground long ago. I was raised by two working parents who incurred considerable debt to provide us with "more". My husband on the other hand was raised reasonably poor, began developing a work ethic at the age of 14, started and ran his own business at the age of 19, and supported a wife and child with it for several years until we made the decision for him to begin in an entry level position in his current job. Being a little princess of Baby Boomer parents, it was very hard for me to live with less than I had been accustomed to and more than once did it throw major kinks into my "love-is-all-we-need" image of my marriage. Thank God my husband saw past my brattiness and forced me to "sacrifice" all those luxuries that I wanted in favor of the patience, endurance, and security that we have now and try so hard to impress upon our children.

 

FYI, we still sit on my parents' old sofa, but now it's by choice not necessity. I've realized I really don't want a beautiful leather sofa for my kids to destroy. We've earned that and it feels great. Hang in there. If you're making smart choices, barring any major disaster, your time will come.

 

(Thanks for taking me with a grain of salt!)

[mcconnellboys]

I think about this a lot, and worry that I will not be able to offer my children the sort of help I received when I went out into life as an adult. And I worry about our retirement.

 

I think the world has changed. I think we have become accustomed, the majority of Americans, over the past three or four decades, to having whatever we want immediately. I believe we have become an immediate gratification society. I just read the other day that folks won't even sit in line at the drivethru for more than 5 minutes.

 

We drive through the library, the bank, the drycleaner, and sometimes even mini-mart convenience stores. We drive through for food, drugs, and sometimes entertainment. And if we're in Vegas, we can do a drive through marriage, too..... There are even drive through churches in some places, or so I've seen on TV..... And all this quick, quick living is driven by use of credit and debit cards, so that you don't hold anyone up in line. Well, enough already.....

 

We buy and buy and throw most all we buy away within six months time. We don't reuse it, we don't recycle it - we just throw it away. How on earth could we expect to spend, and spend, and spend indefinitely? Even a little bit of interest on a credit card is too much and money wasted that could be better used elsewhere.....

 

I've decided that in spite of myself, and my thoughts that I hardly spend money on anything for myself besides eating out and an occasional book, somehow my money is disappearing on me. That's one of the reasons we've decided to try budgeting and using only cash. I will watch my money by actually *watching my money*, as it sits in my little envelope for the month, as it leaves my hands at the cash register, as it comes back to me in change. I will touch it and pay attention to it and think about how to be a better steward of it. And hopefully I will find out how it seems to be slipping through my hands even though I have nothing to show for it, LOL.....

 

I will make better use of my full cupboards and freezers and fridges, rather than rushing out to the store to buy something I've thought of for tonight and letting other food become freezer burned or outdated.....

 

I will cut out the nickel and dime snacks here, there and everywhere as we run through our day that add up quickly into real, significant dollar amounts.

 

I will rethink my spending on every level and hope that I can eek out a little something for my children's futures to make them special - and to prevent them feeling the need to take care of me in my old age, LOL..... And I hope that in rethinking what is important to me, I will make a lasting impression on them about what is important for all of us - and that they will not feel that they are lacking in anything as they go through life, no matter how frugally they may choose to live or find that they need to live. Because it's not all the stuff that makes us or defines us. And it's not the money.

 

Regena

[Sunny]

Could you elaborate on

but I'm surprised at the responses

I'm curious to hear what is surprising.

[debbiec]

OK, this isn't always true, but it's my token phrase that I self talk when I start going there.

 

WE are in our mid 40's and having been going BACKWARDS in income for years. But, I think we have leveled out and are on the slow up. That to say, we like many other posters, wasted a bunch of money while single, while married without children, trying to have what it took my parents 30 years to acrue.

 

We both live in a smaller home now than when we grew up. But this is small compared to ANYONE I know :) (1400sq ft). But, we made this choice, so one parent could stay home. We had to evaulate that yes, we like most parents wanted "more" for our kids. But, we had to really determine (and this has changed over time and aging) ~ more "what?"

 

More money, more stuff, more vacations, more traveling, more parties, more square footage, etc.....

 

WE finally landed on more time as a family and more "meaning." We both came from families that worked very hard, long hours and both parents worked. We made that decision. Do I feel sorry for myself sometimes ~ yes! I had in my mind to take my kids to Europe by the time they were 16. Ain't goin' happen. I thought we'd "Experience" life by more traveling, seeing and going. Work schedules, school, church, and just life has prevented a lot of that. But, I wouldn't trade it. We have more of close knit family that either my husband or I ever had. Of course, my kids could grow up and that all change, who knows.

 

Anyway, my son has many friends (Ok, almost all his friends) have much more than we do. I just remind him of the phrase in the topic line, and to NOT compare.

 

I'm rambling. But, yes, I can relate!

[BamaTanya]

I know exactly how you feel! Of course, there are lots of factors that are different between the generations. The ones *I* see in my own situation:

 

Back in the 60s, many men were able to find jobs and make a decent living without a big education. Dad became an engineer with his Air Force training, and, by the time he was 30, had a good-paying job at IBM and bought a brand new 2100 sf house with double garage. When my dh was 30, he was back in grad school full-time because his fabulously valuable (sarcasm) BA was so limited.

 

My dad stayed with the same company for 30 years. Dh didn't get hired at a breadwinner's salary until he was 35 -- the year I quit work to stay home with our (then) 3 dc.

 

Housing is super expensive. Maybe it always was, but I'm keenly aware of the location, location, location factor. We live one street over from my parents in a (now, of course) 35 year old neighborhood. We could not dream of purchasing a new home, and this comfortable house was the smallest on the street. When *I* grew up here, this was THE place to be. As time has moved on, the district schools have deteriorated. The new and better schools have moved out of the city. Many of our neighbors dc go to private school. My parents didn't have to pay for curriculum or transportation for us to have a good education. Big budget items! To afford the new neighborhoods would require two big salaries.

 

2 of my dc have autism spectrum disorders. We've spent bundles on therapies and drs and meds and supplements that aren't covered by insurance. (And I'm so glad we HAVE insurance, or it would be much worse!) Occupational therapy and meds have helped to blow our budget to kingdom come. Having healthy dc who are successful in school was something I used to take for granted . . . It sure is cheaper!

 

Both of my brothers live in bigger, nicer homes than ours. BUT, we have 5 dc and they each have 2. And both of their wives work. So . . . when I'm feeling pitiful (which I sometimes allow myself), I remember that I have been able to be with my dc and I have been blessed many times!

 

Sometimes I wish we had more. I was always able to take music lessons and other extracurricular things we have n't been able to afford for 5. Hopefully, though, they will remember the blessing of a close family and plenty to eat. And plenty of books to READ, of course. Lol.

[BamaTanya]

Forgot -- my parents never had ANY student loans. Sigh. Dh had to get a MS in order to really work in his field and we are paying $$$.

[Rhondabee]

I meant to include that for *me*, it is my extended family that makes me feel this way. When it's just us, I'm fine, and content with the world.

 

It's like there's a little child inside of me that wants to hear, "We love you! We're so *proud* of you!" but never gets to. Admittedly, I don't think my parents gush over my brother, either. But, I think if I just had that, that would be enough.

[chiguirre]

I guess we are at about the same percentile of earnings as my parents were, but we live so much better than they did. We have the internet, cheap phone service and cell phones, dvds, microwaves! My parents never talk about the good old days, they both love new technology.

 

VCRs didn't become widespread until I was in Jr. High. We didn't have ac in our house or car until I was about 10 either, and my parents were solidly middle class. Remember when your only TV choices were ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS. Now, even if you don't have cable, you can get videos from the library and watch so many different things. My dc can't even conceive of a world like that in the same way I couldn't believe my parents grew up without TV.

 

It's easy to forget all the great things we have today that didn't exist 30 years ago. Even if we aren't as high up the social hierarchy as our parents were, materially we are so much better off.

[LNC]

I was thinking similar thoughts today. When my husband and I were engaged, we railed against the ideals of our "materialistic" parents and upbringing. They constantly baggered my husband to pursue post graduate business or law degrees, management programs etc. We married right out of college and have always had a laid back career path. It has blessed us bc of our many health issues to have my husband around more.

 

Today I was thinking that I see our husband and I starting to sound like our parents did! Wanting our son to have the ability to provide quite abundantly for his family. Wanting to make sure our daughter is in a very stable financial position!

[Rachel]

I agree mostly with the fact that we are an immediate gratification society and we are fed that diet every day through media.

 

I grew up in a single parent home with a mom who struggled financially but provided a private education for me and many things. While at the time I felt "poor" I know now what poor really is, and regret feeling that way as a child.

 

We, my husband and I, have had affluency and hardship.......we are currently going through serious financial hardship after years of affluency due to his business being driven by the economy. It is very difficult for me as I have been home for 16 years and recently (last 2 months) went to work to try to keep us out of bankruptcy (no guarentee that it won't either). I feel put upon and resentful that I can't go buy whatever I want as that is the life I had become accustomed to. But, when I really think about it it is our own darn fault. As our income went up we bought newer, bigger cars, a Hawaii condo, etc... so that when the income went down we no longer can pay for those things. We thought we were so smart and had money in savings (thank God, since we've been living off it for 2 years now) trying to keep up........but things haven't bounced back like we hoped and now we are really stuck. I definitely attribute it to a immediate gratification mentality. I'm hoping when, and if, we get out of this mess we won't make that mistake again.........but of course with my husband turning 51 this year we don't have a whole lot of time left to make this mistake again.

[Tea Party Girl]

I won't tell my story, but it reminds me of that line in Little Women, the movie, that always surprises me.

 

Meg: So you don't mind that John is poor?

 

Marmee: Well, no! But I would like him to have a house!!

[umarider]

Way back... when I was in college, I guess, I read something in a novel about how you could always spot a person who was poor or new rich because they could never be comfortable relaxing in the presence of a servant who was working. At the time, I thought that was a bunch of hogwash... that I would have no problem kicking back w/ my feet up while a maid cleaned my house!

 

Somewhere along the way I have changed. The few times I hired someone to clean my house because I was swamped w/ work from my at-home business, I found that the days my house was being cleaned were my most productive because I couldn't even stand to take a break to get lunch, etc. while someone else was cleaning/working around me. In a way it hurt to realize that I will never be able to enjoy luxury or lounging around because my work ethic gets in the way.

 

I used to feel pinched when I watched all the other moms w/ their big SUVs and Nordstrom wardrobes (nothing re-used from last year, mind you!), buying new houses each year or new SUVs if they didn't get the new house! But now I know that for the most part it was all smoke and mirrors. Many people have the world crashing around them. And they may not have the work ethic that would allow them to do what is necessary to get by. They have to learn that skill at a late age, and that ain't easy.

 

So I guess I do have some luxury in the form of stability and a can-do attitude. Like the tortoise, slow and steady will get me (and my family) to the finishline... and even if we don't finish first, I think finishing is just fine!

[Volty]

Maybe being born poor wasn't such a bad thing. We bought new stuff at Kmart or Sears otherwise it was garage sales and thrift stores. Never had good stuff, never did a lot of things. Never asked, knew there wasn't any money. Even going to college, I went in the Army, never asked my family for stuff.

 

But my parents did put me into the local parochial school and when I eventually transfered into the public school, I noticed the big difference in lack of quality and how far ahead I was. So I swore I'd never ut my kids in the public school.

 

So when the Army money ran out, I turned to loans for med-school but couldn't do it and dropped out with a massive debt. Girlfriend promptly dumped me. I had doctor student loans and no money so I ..... bailed ... moved to China. I still owe tons of money but I can't begin to repay and I can't bankrupt out of student loan debt so I just ignore it.

 

And life has been great. I have a good job with plenty of disposable income, my wife (who had been working obscene hours in a real estate company, routinely 70-80 hours, when I met her- Chinese companies work their employees like dogs with) stays home and does not at all miss the rat race. We're living an upper middle class Chinese lifestyle, which is much better than either of us had growing up, on one income.

 

So, yeah, things are going well for us. We're really appy and satisfied. But I have always been frugal and done without, it's second nature to me and those life lessons of being poor yet content have paid off for me. I don't know that others could be satisfied living like this.

[Karen sn]

Ummm....yes, I definately did NOT think I would be $38,000 in debt with student loans for a degree that I personally couldn't feed a family on (bachelor in social work). Or that I would owe my best friend $10,000 for helping me get this new degree (registered nurse). Or that I would live in a very SMALL house (we use the word cottage to feel better) that I RENT (never have even owned one single house!) at the age of 35!!!! I'm only 5 years away from 40 and now having a baby is going to "slow down" that financial climb out of debt that I thought would happen with this nursing career.

 

It sucks financially. But I see my kid every day - all day long. I am dead broke - but we actually have a horse! And we eat a lot of organic.

 

Basically - I don't think anyone I know has it as good as their parents did at our age. But I can tell you this - it's only gonna get worse. And I know it really bites to have to constantly compare your life to those less fortunate in order to feel better.....but we do. We are eating every day - we do love each other - we are safe (AND FEEL SAFE) in our itsy bitsy home where we never lock the door.

 

Don't beat yourself up over it. Most of the people who appear to have made it are swimming in a sea of overwhelming debt and they don't sleep well. It was never an American Dream - or Canadian for you - it's more of a nightmare.

 

I will tell you - it's only gonna get worse. The economy and our lack of morals as a nation (shipping adult jobs over seas to child labour camps) - it's all gonna bite us in the butt. But when it all falls - when the illusion of what money does for us is destroyed and we see it all clearly - we still have the love from our children and we know in our hearts that we did right by them. I would rather sacrifice money than the love and relationship of my kids.

 

Let's face it Jennifer - both you and I are smart enough and strong enough to make a killing in the financial world if we really were willing to put that before our families. We COULD do it. But when we are on our deathbed - we will not regret the way we did things because our kids and grand kids will be by our sides as we pass from this life into the next.

 

And don't worry - financially - it's about to get worse for the world and we are going to look back at this and think, "It was hard. But we had everything we really needed." Think about it. I remember being so poor in college we froze to death almost because we couldn't afford oil for heat (I got pnemonia!). It sucked. But I remember how we loved each other and shared everything we had in that very cold house. I always did know I was loved.

[mellifera]

My father made at least 2x's what dh makes. They had only 2 children. I never heard, "No, we can't afford that." Something dc hear far to much. My brother probably makes double what we do, also. The only time I really notice it is when someone asks me why we don't do x like your brother. I tell my children that we have made choices, and these choices demand some sacrifice. We chose to have 4 kids. We chose to home school. We chose to have me stay at home instead of continuing to work. We think these choices are worth the price we pay for them. Whenever I do start wishing we had more money, I tell myself that and realize what I do have.:) It does help me to know that this is something I've chosen, not something that has just happened to me.

[BamaTanya]

Yes, dh's degree was in sociology. Mine was in English. While neither of us thought we were materialistic, it didn't even occur to us that we wouldn't be able to LIVE on the salary jobs in those fields opened. Both of us needed grad school. (My first *real* job paid $800 per month - with no salary in the summer -- teaching in a private school 20 years ago. I wanted to be independent and found another teacher to share apt expenses -- but we couldn't even share expenses and keep up with with our car insurance and maintenance -- even with old cars/no payments!) Dh's first job after earning his MS paid $8 per hour. Seriously. And that was only 11 years ago. We had 2 kiddos and a $450 house payment then -- cheaper than renting an apt.

[BamaTanya]

Yes, yes, yes! I didn't need a lot of money, but a place to live is important!

[lynn]

My dh rescued me from there. Where I live in N Alabama the taxes are about 1/4 of S FL and houses are much nicer, newer and so much less. Same for auto insurance and taxes. Just by not living where my parents live we are so much better off and I feel my children are safer and better educated because of all the hsing connections here.

[Just Me]

so I always felt as if something could collapse at any time. We moved 13 times, all within the same town when I was a child, because of financial issues. My parents are now at retirement age, and have no credit, cannot afford their house and cannot afford to fix it up to sell it, and cannot fully retire. Their heat went out recently, and they cannot qualify for the loan through the gas company, that they were told that everyone qualifies for, so they have no heat.

 

That is not the legacy I want to leave my children. I am currently working through Dave Ramsey's program, and plan to be debt-free in 2017, including the house. Along with doing this, I am trying to figure out how to provide for my parents. We may not have much right now - in fact we are selling our 1997 Jeep in order to buy a cheaper car to put that money on debt - but one day we will "live like no one else". :D

 

As hard as it is, I try to remind myself what I do have that my parents don't, and never did. A close relationship with all of my children, a relaxed relationship with my spouse (because we don't have to worry about money - Not because we have a lot, but because we know where every dollar is going!), tons of friends, a church family that loves us dearly, and stability.

 

That all said, money and budgeting are the topics that I spend the majority of my time thinking about, and I wish that were not the case. But that is my nature, and it drives me to excel.

[Anna]

Most of our parents bought houses that probably cost less than $40k. Today, their homes have increased in value by outrageous percentages. Are they worth $300k now? $500K? Depends on where in the country....

 

50 years ago, around the time I was born, my parents bought our home in a New Orleans suburb for $15,000. It was a decent 3-bdrm, 1-bth ranch with front/back yards and garage. Dad and Grandpa built a family rm and utility rm in the back with 2 bedrms and another bath above it. I don't remember exactly what he sold the house for 30 years ago but I know that he got somewhere between $200-300,000. for it. How's that for appreciation?

 

Unfortunately during Katrina the house floated off its foundation :( and ended up (intact) in the neighbor's backyard where it had to be bulldozed with all the other houses in that neighborhood. I managed to get the original house numbers that were still above the front door after Katrina. Every time I look at those house numbers I'm reminded of a simple life that my parents lived 50 years ago.

[Scarlett]

In other words, I didn't enjoy it when I had it!

 

Ummm....maybe you still aren't. All things are relative. And many of those people who appear to be living the 'good life' are actually in debt up to their eyeballs.

[JennifersLost]

I wrote a whole long post just now and at the last line it all became so clear what is really going on for me, so I'm starting over again.

 

I wrote my original post because when I'm feeling angry about money it affects my whole family. It's a poisonous feeling, and my anger lashes out first at dh - he's the breadwinner, after all - and then at myself for feeling that way and not having my own source of earnings to fix it.

 

But I just realized that this anger isn't about money - it's about dependence and how freaking terrifying it is to me to depend on dh for our income.

 

It's not dh's fault that I feel this way. Once in awhile he is too cautious about money and it turns out we could have spent more than we did. But he's never profligate with money - he's never once gotten us into a position where we couldn't pay our bills. And every decision that was tough ended up making us huge gains in the end.

 

This is about trust and the fact that I don't trust ANYONE because before him I chose a man who blew our money on drugs and I can't get over that fear. So when dh makes a smart money choice that somehow puts me in a pinch (keeping the food budget tight, etc.) it doesn't feel smart to me - it feels like that money is out of my control - like it's gone and I'll never see it again. And it feels like that pinch will go on forever - like he has no idea how hard he's making it for me and no comprehension what that feels like, but that's not dh I'm reacting toward, because of course he does - that's my ex I'm thinking of.

 

God, I'm just like my mother, who used to serve us food that had gone bad because money was so tight when she was a kid and she still couldn't stand to "waste" anything - I just can't get over the "bad times" and believe in my heart that times are different now.

 

Since we started this thread, dh and I revised our budget for the year and several things are much better than last year. I should be ecstatic, but since we've talked I've felt worse rather than better - just thoroughly pissed off. Thanks to all of you for continuing the thread this long so I could keep working on it in my head. I think I've finally gotten to the heart of the matter - something I can process and work on.

[Kathy in MD]

some ways. Although I knew growing up that we didn't have lots of money to through around, I never realized just how difficult things were until I'd been away from home for years. My parents were very good at keeping such problems hidden combined with managing their children's expectations. Plus many things we did that saved money was part of our training in how to manage a home - sewing, gardening, canning. Mom enjoyed those things and we competed in 4-H in those areas, along with our cousins and many friends.

 

What made it easier was that we were raised to participate in that life style and our friends reflected that. Vacations were generally out because Dad was in construction and the vacation season interfers with the heavy construction season. And our friends and classmates at that time weren't constantly travelling. Occassionally one might mention about going to a cabin in Michigan or some other, simple place for a week. But there were no big, fancy trips to Europe or weekend trips to the beach.

 

How our parents did have it easier was that it was possible then to buy a small 2 bedroom home with a yard for children to play in. It was considered standard for children to share rooms, so having 3 children under 5 in one room was no big deal. Today, it's hard to find an affordable 2 bedroom townhouse in our older neighborhood. And of course there's no yard included.

 

However, I worry about my dc. Unfortunately in many ways, dh and I were in the affluent stage of our lives when ds came. He's never known us to worry about paying the bills or buying something on impulse. Unfortunately he doesn't realize that we had and have purposely kept major expenses down so we don't need to worry. Because we live in townhouses, there isn't the weekly maintainance that comes with single family homes. So all of the neighborhood kids have minimal chores and lots of things to keep them occupied. DS is in for a shock when he's out on his own.

[Old Dominion Heather]

. Our own success *feels* like failure

 

What a profound, piercing statement. I think this is what my dh deals with daily. We live in a very nice area where we are probably in the bottom half income-wise. Everybody is very nice, we love our church, but they do all have more, more house, more stuff, more everything. Dh is doing far, far better than his parents did, or do now, but he still feels like his success is a failure.

[amy g.]

We are much much better off than our parents were. My MIL raised 8 kids, in a tiny house.

 

My parents made plenty of money, but they were such INFANTS that they would blow it all partying on the weekends, and we wouldn't have food during the week. I feel so fortunate not to be living with people who beat each other up, and blow up cars, and spend money like water.

 

I really did look at dates and wonder if they would be good providers. I knew that I was at risk of repeating my parents' lifestyle, so I really had to over think everything. I was clear with Dh before we got married that I would not work once we had children, and that my teaching degree is just a back up in case he died, and I had to support my children alone.

 

I know we are lucky, because he has done well with his career, and he has a job he truly loves. How fortunate is that? I know that we can have anything we want, if we are willing to pay the price for it. We choose the thrift store clothes and old cars because we would rather spend the money on other things. It feels good to me to make a plan, and a budget, and see it really work. That makes me so much happier than a lot of stuff.

[Rhondabee]

Amy, your story sounds *so* much like my father's (of whose childhood I have only heard whispers, and that *not* from him). Your children are so very lucky to have you!

[Happy]

50 years ago, around the time I was born, my parents bought our home in a New Orleans suburb for $15,000. It was a decent 3-bdrm, 1-bth ranch with front/back yards and garage. Dad and Grandpa built a family rm and utility rm in the back with 2 bedrms and another bath above it. I don't remember exactly what he sold the house for 30 years ago but I know that he got somewhere between $200-300,000. for it. How's that for appreciation?

 

Unfortunately during Katrina the house floated off its foundation :( and ended up (intact) in the neighbor's backyard where it had to be bulldozed with all the other houses in that neighborhood. I managed to get the original house numbers that were still above the front door after Katrina. Every time I look at those house numbers I'm reminded of a simple life that my parents lived 50 years ago.

 

Not everyone experienced huge gains. My parents bought a house in the late 60's for probably $11,000. Thirty two years later, after my parent's deaths and the death of the man my mom married, we sold the house to a rehabber (because the condition had gone south due to lack of care) for only 25,000. In pristine condition, it would have only brought 40,000 or so. The 'good' neighborhoods had moved elsewhere in town. Maybe in another generation, that area would be more desirable.

[Doran]

Thanks to all of you for continuing the thread this long so I could keep working on it in my head. I think I've finally gotten to the heart of the matter - something I can process and work on.

 

 

You know, Jennifer -- it helps us process our own stuff, too! I'm glad you've had a little enlightenment. That's a great feeling! This does sound much more like the root of the issue - it makes perfect sense. Don't you love it when clarity hits you?

 

And, if I may say so myself, I'd be willing to bet that your are NOT just like your mother. :p

 

Doran

[Sharon H in IL]

You know, Jennifer -- it helps us process our own stuff, too! I'm glad you've had a little enlightenment. That's a great feeling! This does sound much more like the root of the issue - it makes perfect sense. Don't you love it when clarity hits you?

 

And, if I may say so myself, I'd be willing to bet that your are NOT just like your mother. :p

 

Doran

 

Amen, and amen.