s/o catholic/protestant thing - SOF issue

[Parrothead]

Oh that IS contagious...giggle...

Have y'all seen

?

[smillard00]

You know, I was raised Protestant, have been in many Protestant churches of various sorts (many not wanting to be associated with the others), etc, and this is the first time I've EVER run into ANYONE that has an issue with the term Protestant or claimed that it was an out dated term. Wow. I'll toss out my dictionary.

 

For the record, my husband and I hate being called protestant. We feel like it is completely inaccurate for us as well. In fact, when we hear someone refer to Protestants, we automatically think they couldn't be talking about us. We truly don't identify with the term. We are becoming more hesitant to use the term Episcopalian among people who don't know us and our beliefs because there are many in the Episcopal church who are straying from the orthodox view of Holy Scripture and the traditions and teachings of the Church and we don't want anyone to think that is our belief. When we want to accurately describe ourselves, we choose "Anglo-Catholic." It is the most accurate term at this point.

 

My husband is a priest, ordained in the Apostolic succession, and we feel very strongly that we should either be in communion with the see of Canterbury or Rome. Hopefully one day that won't be an either/or. We pray for the unity of the Church.

 

I just wanted to throw that out there since you hadn't heard that the term protestant is bothersome to some people. It might be more common than you think.

[Mrs Mungo]

Does this mean we have to learn all 33,000 names of all the denominations that sprang from the Reformation?

 

 

Crap.

 

Sadly, a lot of young people sense the wrong but don't have a way out or they aren't educated with any historical/Biblical argument. Or if they give one, it is brushed off as false teaching.

 

I agree. I was raised (and maybe this is obvious) to discuss, think it through, research and not just take what I'm told at face value. Not everyone has that luxury. Many people raised in fundamentalist environments are taught to adhere to the status quo. They have a hard time leaving behind everything they know. I had other social outlets, not all teens are afforded that luxury either, especially those in fundamentalist groups. Therefore, it is necessary for people to speak out.

 

When someone tells me they attended BJU or are using BJU curricula I don't go off on a tirade. But, when it comes up or when people ask, I will tell people what I think.

 

Saying that I'm trying to help in no way means that I feel the need to be condescending. You are an adult and I've striven to respect that. Does that help? Please do take it in the spirit it is given. :)

 

And, can I just add something here? Every forum (this is not a blog) has its own flavor. This one very caring and supportive to people. But, it's also sort of matter of fact. It's not all cupcakes and rainbows like some female-dominated internet forums. I know some people truly see every voice of concern or disagreement or whatever as "bashing," that's just not what it is.

[Mrs Mungo]

Have y'all seen

?

 

This is my favorite.

[Xuzi]

Have y'all seen

?

 

beats all, in my not so humble opinion. :D

[lauracolumbus]

Ok, I read through all 500 posts. And still no kilt pictures??? What's up with that?

 

On the other hand I have learned a lot. And that's the best part of this board.

 

Laura

[hollyandab]

See? We're right! How can you honestly defend an institution that makes you wear hose???:tongue_smilie:

Heehee!! Yes, I had deep-seaded hatred of them for years for making me wear those awful things! I don't think I have worn a skirt and hose for 10 years now! If you wanna dis on BJ for that, I'll be right there with ya!:lol:

[justamouse]

This is my favorite.

 

beats all, in my not so humble opinion. :D

 

Stop, stop please! My ovaries can't take it!

[gardenmom5]

Well at least it wasn't men in kilts!!!

I've been reading through this, and will dip my toe in . . .

 

We have a guy in the area who wear's a utility kilt with his very long pony tail. at least he has muscular legs and can get away with it.

 

(i don't understand the appeal, but a friend of scottish descent assures me they are considered very sexy.)

[Parrothead]

I've been reading through this, and will dip my toe in . . .

 

We have a guy in the area who wear's a utility kilt with his very long pony tail. at least he has muscular legs and can get away with it.

 

(i don't understand the appeal, but a friend of scottish descent assures me they are considered very sexy.)

Would you do a drive by photo shoot and post the photo? Pretty please.

[Spy Car]

 

 

Ortholicipalicanian.

 

 

 

Ortholicipalicanian, Western Synod (if you please :tongue_smilie:).

 

Bill

[hollyandab]

Holly, (and I'm saying this in the same polite tone, so you don't feel the need to lash out at me again)

 

 

 

 

I haven't seen a good reason for why it is "mean-spirited", "whiny", or "bitter" to say that racists are promoting hatred. You admit to emotionally responding to calm, polite, rational answers to your objections. And I admit I still cannot figure out why someone would be offended that we rightly point out divisive and hateful policies. (Clairelise quote)

 

 

 

 

I don't have any problem with you stating that racists are promoting hatred. That is exactly what racists promote. I hate racism. It goes against every fiber of my being, and has since I was a very young child.

 

I guess my confusion, and ultimately why I reacted to your posts the way I did, is that when you referred to calling racism what it is, that you were saying someone or some group that we were talking about was racist. Oh, and really showing my stupidity, I just had a thought...when you said they were promoting bigotry...is that the same as racism? I thought it was...??? Maybe I need to look that up!! Oh goodness, if that's not what that means, then I was way off and REALLY owe you an apology!! Ack! Anyway, if by bigotry you are meaning racism, I don't know who you would be referring to as being racist if not the groups that prefer to be exclusive from other denominations, since these isolationist groups were the topic of discussion. (And when I refer to isolationists, I assumed everyone meant BJU type of groups, since they are the most referred to--but perhaps that is where I am assuming incorrectly, causing my confusion. Maybe you could set me straight on that also!) And if by bigotry you mean something else, please set my thinking straight and let me know what you meant!! :tongue_smilie:

 

So I guess my question to you would be, who are you referring to when you say you are pointing it out and calling it what it is? Do you see where I am confused? Are you calling anyone racist at all? Or are you simply saying racism is ugly, of which I can whole-heartedly agree! Maybe you're not saying these groups are racist, and then I would say that, oh my goodness, I completely misunderstood your posts! And if I did misunderstand them, do you see why I reacted the way I did when racism is something that I HATE with a passion? (even though that is still not a good reason for losing my cool!)

 

However, if you are saying that these policies (selective SOF) are hateful and divisive, I guess then I have to agree and disagree at the same time. (:001_smile:) I still hold to the fact that some people truly believe that it is Biblical to do this, even though to you it may seem divisive and hateful, to them it is a call of obedience. However, I have never seen where they would ever discriminate over race. I see race and beliefs to be different. You can not choose your race, but you do choose your faith. So I can definitely be civil and agree to disagree if that is what you are saying. I have no problem and take no offense if you disagree with me on this. It has taken me a bit, but I do see how my emotions blurred my thinking and caused me to lash out, and I definitely, for some reason or another, had a hard time properly understanding your posts, of which I am certain to be to blame. I did not have a good, classical education myself, so you'll have to forgive me as I muddle through this discussion! :001_smile: Maybe if I take some logic classes I'll be able to better communicate with you! Heehee!! :)

(And I am serious about that, I'm not being sarcastic! I'm sure I could use some lessons in logic!)

 

Holly, hoping to grow in understanding and wisdom...

Edited July 16, 2011 by hollyandab
typo!

[Mrs Mungo]

Holly, do you not believe that it is inherently racist to forbid and/or vocally teach against interracial dating within a church or religious organization? That is what people are saying is racist. If you didn't experience that within you little corner of fundamentalism, then maybe you haven't directly encountered it? Or maybe you do not see these teachings/policies/rules as racist? I am not trying to put words in your mouth; I am just trying to find the disconnect. Because I don't understand what part of the discussion you don't understand. :confused:

[mommaduck]

Oh, and I do have to add, not that this is you Holly (I don't believe it is, but I do know people like this), that there are people in this world that are against interracial marriage, but have no problem fostering and adopting children of another ethnicity/race (and yes, it gets my goat).

[hollyandab]

Holly, do you not believe that it is inherently racist to forbid and/or vocally teach against interracial dating within a church or religious organization? That is what people are saying is racist. If you didn't experience that within you little corner of fundamentalism, then maybe you haven't directly encountered it? Or maybe you do not see these teachings/policies/rules as racist? I am not trying to put words in your mouth; I am just trying to find the disconnect. Because I don't understand what part of the discussion you don't understand. :confused:

I definitely see teaching against interracial dating as racist. I guess maybe the problem we are having is that you still view BJU and the groups from my long past (my fundamental corner of the world--I like that!:001_smile:) as saying this is wrong. There was a time when BJ had this rule; it is gone now. They have admitted that it was wrong, but yet many here still say they hold to it. This is not true. And even when they did have this rule, I really don't think it was enforced because I did see interracial couples on campus. In fact, my now sister-in-law dated interracially at BJ years ago before the rule was changed. (And he broke up with her and she was heart-broken! But she got my husband's brother, who is a really cool guy!) I think most people here still think that BJ holds to that teaching. And like I said (and Spycar can disagree), they had a weird view on one-world, end times, anti-Christ thing. Did they make it up to discriminate? Who knows...it is in the South, and that rule came from years and years ago. But you have to remember, they have many rules and draw many lines and have many views that would seem very strange to most. It saddens me that they had this rule; I said this in other posts. It just wasn't what they were about. The main things I heard preached about was dressing like the world was wrong and going to movies was wrong (exaggeration on it being the ONLY thing they taught about--I tend to do that...another reason many have misunderstood me. I have a flare for the dramatic. Blame my Jewish bloodline. I have a very strong personality, but I am harmless!) And as far as calling the Pope the anti-Christ, well, I've never heard that one before, so I can't say if that was ever said or not. I will say that I never heard any anti-Catholic sentiments (about the people specifically...) from the pulpit, teachers or students. Now, that being said, in our Theology classes, they would discuss doctrinal difference of other denominations. But this was never preached at us as though they were evil. It was taught why we did not agree with them doctrinally. Now if a group of people think it's a sin to go see a G-rated movie at a movie theater, and it's a sin to go to Pizza Hut because they serve alcohol, then I think it would be easy to understand that seperating from Catholics doctrinally, to them, was just another conviction and line to be drawn. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just that they are doing it out of what they feel is obedience to God. If you think this is divisive of them, well, I guess I can agree to an extent, because it is dividing them from other denominations. However, I completely disagree that they are being mean-spirited with it. You may see it differently...that's fine...just my opinion from what I experienced.

 

Does that help? Let me know!

 

Holly

[hollyandab]

Oh, and I do have to add, not that this is you Holly (I don't believe it is, but I do know people like this), that there are people in this world that are against interracial marriage, but have no problem fostering and adopting children of another ethnicity/race (and yes, it gets my goat).

Well, that is strange, and yes, wrong. I do know that the older generation tends to hesitate and have difficulty accepting interracial marriage. My grandma is absolutely HORRIBLE about interracial marriage. (She was not part of our fundamental corner of the world...that was my parents who found that corner!) I've told her many times that she's absolutely wrong on it, but she's 93, do you really think she's going to change her mind? LOL--there's no changing at that stage of the game!

[Ellesmere]

 

 

Edited April 20, 2014 by CaladwenEleniel

[mommaduck]

Ironically, BJU would send male students to black prison workcamps to try and "save" them and teach them the error of their ways...this from the school that would not have been willing to educate those same people.

 

Someone on my FB made a comment about pink and blue sidewalks in regards to BJU (?)

[Mrs Mungo]

Holly,

 

They didn't suddenly have a change of heart. They were sued and they lost. It was forced upon them.

 

Again, I *have* seen (what I feel are) racist teachings in fundamentalist churches. I *have* heard anti-Catholic and for that matter anti-Baptist, anti-Mormon, anti-Pentecostal, etc teachings directly from the pulpit. Those who haven't are maybe not recognizing them due to a lack of knowledge about other faiths or have been sincerely blessed in their church choices. Either way, your experience does not negate my own. Your experiences do not negate specific teachings from specific BJU leaders (relatively recent leaders).

 

I cannot for the life of me figure out if you are saying what we perceive as racist policies do not exist/have not existed or whether you are saying they exist only because of a fervent belief that the policies are Biblical and therefore those involved should be excused. Or both? You seem to be arguing both of these things at the same time? :confused:

[Carol in Cal.]

H

I cannot for the life of me figure out if you are saying what we perceive as racist policies do not exist/have not existed or whether you are saying they exist only because of a fervent belief that the policies are Biblical and therefore those involved should be excused. Or both? You seem to be arguing both of these things at the same time? :confused:

 

Here's what I hear Holly saying, although I might well be wrong:

1. BJU was not verbally racist when she was there, and the people were really, really nice.

2. Racism is awful and anti-Christian and repugnant

3. BJU might have been separatist, but they also believed in all humans loving each other and have their separate, but nice lives apart from each other, but loving each other, equal in the sight of God.

4. Christian love should characterize how Christians treat each other in every circumstance, even when we have a fellow Christian in mind who holds views that we consider totally repugnant.

 

I would agree with the last point, which is often not made and which I appreciate her making very much. I hold to point 2 very strongly. I have no basis for an opinion on point 1, but I find the earlier history of BJU to be very racist, and see signs of possible racism or at a minimum teaching of racist views of history as fact rather than opinion in one of their recent textbooks that I happened to pick up for free at a giveaway--I have not used it mostly for that reason. Regarding point 3, it's more moral a stance than pure out and out racial superiority but it contradicts "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, no more 'male and female.'"

Edited July 16, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

Holly, I want you to know that I have really enjoyed your posts as they have made me think.

 

I have never respected BJU at all, as I have viewed them as completely and totally racist and white supremacy type teachers, which I detest beyond my ability to say. I tend to still feel that way, but I have realized that I do need to extend Christian love to them, and although I believe that I am older than you and have seen and know more about their history, you certainly have the edge in understanding their current views. I think that you might want to consider, though, that although their separatism might really be derived from what they think the Bible teaches, there is at least a possibility that they are separatist because of a belief in their own racial superiority, and hunted up Biblical justification for it. If so, that would be impossible to defend, in my book. Even if not, I profoundly and deeply disagree with their view of the Biblical teachings about this.

 

I need to love them, though. And, wow, it's hard for me. I'm grateful that you have written so eloquently about the need for Christian love among ALL Christians. Thank you.

[hollyandab]

Holly, I want you to know that I have really enjoyed your posts as they have made me think.

 

I have never respected BJU at all, as I have viewed them as completely and totally racist and white supremacy type teachers, which I detest beyond my ability to say. I tend to still feel that way, but I have realized that I do need to extend Christian love to them, and although I believe that I am older than you and have seen and know more about their history, you certainly have the edge in understanding their current views. I think that you might want to consider, though, that although their separatism might really be derived from what they think the Bible teaches, there is at least a possibility that they are separatist because of a belief in their own racial superiority, and hunted up Biblical justification for it. If so, that would be impossible to defend, in my book. Even if not, I profoundly and deeply disagree with their view of the Biblical teachings about this.

 

I need to love them, though. And, wow, it's hard for me. I'm grateful that you have written so eloquently about the need for Christian love among ALL Christians. Thank you.

 

Carol, thank you soooo much for your kind posts. I really, really needed them. I think you did a good job, more or less, putting into terms what I was trying to say.

 

I do agree that maybe I do give BJ more of the benefit of doubt when it comes to their history than maybe I should because, sadly, it wasn't just churches that held racist views during this time of our country's history, most certainly in the South. It is amazing to me that just a generation or so ago, when my parents were kids, the African-Americans had to use seperate restrooms, water fountains, schools...absolutely shameful part of our American past. However, I like to think that America has made great strides against racism, and I also like to believe that the churches have also, including fundamentalists. Preachers in the South used to use the Bible to defend slavery, and no, there is no defense of that. But it goes to underscore the fact that all of us Christians are weak and sinful, and so in need of God's grace. I do not hold the Catholic church responsible for the actions of a few priests that have done unthinkable things; we are all capable of doing so much wrong, and yet He continues to give and give His grace.

 

That is why I, the best I can say, try not to judge the intentions of fundamentalist groups, or any Christian group.

 

After my husband and I got married, God led us to a couple of great churches where He started to show us that we did not have to live in legalism. And then I went on for the next 10 years thinking how wrong and stupid the Christian schools and churches of my past were. (Did I mention that BJ was actually somewhat liberal and very gracious compared to my childhood school and church?:tongue_smilie:!! Do you feel sorry for me yet? :D) Anyhow, I thought I was better than the Christians I had grown up with. They didn't understand grace, and they were ungracious, and I actually was holding bitterness towards them and was being judgmental of them. In the past year, God started convicting me of my arrogance toward them. He showed me that had it not been for Him showing me His grace, I would still be in that legalism. How dare I hold my head high and judge their intentions and hearts and motives and actions, when I was no different than they, and still would be the same if not for His grace. It humbled me beyond words. I asked God to forgive me of my pride and help me to love them. It was immediate; He took away the judgmental heart and replaced it with one of love and understanding.

 

I don't know how else to express my position on this topic to everyone other than showing you what I have experienced. That is why I say that while I don't think it is right to be reclusive, asking people to sign narrow SOF, I also do not want to judge their motives, intentions...their hearts. How dare I! I give that to God. I am not saying that anyone here is judging their motives. I don't know your hearts.

 

This experience was what I was trying to convey in my earlier posts, but apparently it came across that I was accusing others here of being the same as the people they thought were divisive, hateful and promoting of bigotry. When I read these posts and I felt "accused" of this, twice, I lost my cool and let the old flesh take over. But praise God He is faithful to convict and humble this wicked tongue (or typing) of mine. My only solace in this weakness of mine is that Peter was also hot-headed, boastful, lacking of faith, quick tongued...and yet Jesus changed Peter into a strong, amazing man of God. Maybe there is hope for me yet!

 

So, yes, I have a complicated, strange history, but God is still working on me, and I KNOW He is not finished! I have a long way to go, but I hope that by opening my heart I have at least been able to convey, in some way or another, my humble position.

 

God bless,

 

Holly in KY

[Carol in Cal.]

 

I do agree that maybe I do give BJ more of the benefit of doubt when it comes to their history than maybe I should because, sadly, it wasn't just churches that held racist views during this time of our country's history, most certainly in the South. It is amazing to me that just a generation or so ago, when my parents were kids, the African-Americans had to use seperate restrooms, water fountains, schools...absolutely shameful part of our American past.

 

Yes, this is horrendous and shameful.

 

The thing that has always made me single out BJU in this regard is that they held to it and taught it as Biblical decades after the rest of large institutions had stopped. That makes them uniquely offensive to me. But I still must love the individuals there. Drat it. I confess that I really, really don't want to. I do think that it is reasonable to hate the sin though loving the sinner.

 

I still am not going running out to by those materials. The history book I have is really pretty recent.

[Mrs Mungo]

Holly,

 

Understand, I'm not discussing this to antagonize you. I only seek to understand what you're trying to convey and trying to better my own stance, which I don't seem to be able to explain to you.

 

Here's what I hear Holly saying, although I might well be wrong:

1. BJU was not verbally racist when she was there, and the people were really, really nice.

 

Which is a non sequitur to me. It doesn't follow that they can't be racist because they didn't talk about it and were nice. Plenty of institutional racism is hidden or not verbalized. Plenty of racists can be otherwise nice people.

 

2. Racism is awful and anti-Christian and repugnant

3. BJU might have been separatist, but they also believed in all humans loving each other and have their separate, but nice lives apart from each other, but loving each other, equal in the sight of God.

 

Even the courts decided that "separate but equal" is almost never equal.

 

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4. Christian love should characterize how Christians treat each other in every circumstance, even when we have a fellow Christian in mind who holds views that we consider totally repugnant.

 

I don't disagree with this. But, I don't think that means we don't point out serious wrongs done by Christians just because they're Christians.

 

I do agree that maybe I do give BJ more of the benefit of doubt when it comes to their history than maybe I should because, sadly, it wasn't just churches that held racist views during this time of our country's history, most certainly in the South.

 

Can I ask how old you are? Because *I* experienced this stuff in fundamentalist churches when I was a teen and I'm only 38. BJU's president didn't apologize until *2008*, and said at the time something like he hoped that people didn't hold his father and grandfather's views against him. His father held that post until *2005*. This is not distant history.

 

That is why I, the best I can say, try not to judge the intentions of fundamentalist groups, or any Christian group.

 

I'm not judging them by anything except their actions and their own words.

 

This page might interest you. It's a page that copied old pages from the BJU website.

 

And, Holly, God is working on all of us. :)

[hollyandab]

Mrs. Mungo--

 

Not really wanting to admit this, but, blah, I am older than you! I'm 39, quickly closing in on that number which shall not be uttered...:tongue_smilie: !!!

 

First of all, this thread was originally geared towards the SOF which, from what I saw, in no way discriminated based on race. This thread has somehow made it to the subject of racism, which is an emotionally charged subject. But since we are there, may I humbly suggest that we, who, by the grace of God, have had our eyes opened to the horror of racism, join together to pray that God will pour his grace on anyone, anywhere across this nation and world, in every denomination and race, who still holds to any racism on any level, and that He will shout through their deafness and wash the scales off of their eyes so that they will turn from their pride (the basis of racism and the basis of so many sins in all of our lives), and see others through God's eyes and love them with God's love. And I am not saying that you are not doing that--I have NO idea nor is it my business. This thread has brought to my attention that this ugly stain on our nation's history is still rearing its ugly head throughout the land. Our church is such a mix of every race and size and styles and backgrounds and social levels, all united by the Love for Jesus, that maybe I have forgotten or not realized or do not remember that this is still a huge problem in Christianity. I have been challenged to pray to this end, and for that I am grateful. But I do hope that we can all do this without judging their words or actions or intentions...simply one sinner saved by grace praying for the grace of God to break through the lives of other brothers and sisters in Christ, so that the pride of Christians will not keep the lost from coming to Christ.

 

And I'll also add--to anyone who wants or cares to listen--(lol--I guess today's message really moved me today!), that we might ask God to reveal in our own hearts any prejudice in any form...do I prefer the rich person to the poor, do I prefer the handsome over the ugly, do I look down on the poor, the uneducated, the lazy, the alcoholic, the druggie, the abortionist, the weak, the annoying person, the fuddy-duddy...there are so many ways we can easily fall into the trap of pride, thinking of ourselves better others... Not that I'm saying this in particular of you or anyone else specifically on this blog. PLEASE!! I'm really saying things that God has been putting on MY heart for MY life and sharing... Please do not think I am judging ANY of you!! None of us is perfect; most definitely I am not!. If any of us were, then we wouldn't need Jesus!!

 

Humbly, in His name,

Holly in KY

Edited July 17, 2011 by hollyandab
one more thing...