How do you handle a child/young adult who lies to you?

[m0mmaBuck]

Without going into a lot of detail, we are having some issues with DSS19 which are being made worse by the fact that he frequently lies to us, either to cover up something he's done that he knows we wouldn't approve of or to embellish a story to make himself seem "cool." I do not do well with lying. I do not like to be around people who lie. DSS knows this and yet he continues to lie to my face. When confronted, he tries to deny it, even when he knows he has been caught. He tries to turn it around on us as if we misunderstood what he said or we are making up things to make him look bad.

 

I've never had to maintain a relationship with someone who exists on lies. What does one do in this situation?

[elizabeth]

Read my old post on this. I had all manner of accusations thrown at me yet I am sure I have more personal and professional experience with suicide survivors than any others on this board. In fact I know I do. I told you that you were being played. Now it seems the chickens have come home to roost.

Here is the old post of mine that caused such vile remarks from others they do not bear repeating. However, I do think you might want to read it carefully this time as things are unfolding exactly as I predicted.

 

Voice of dissent here. As a survivor of suicide by a parent and then brother the worst thing you can do is indulge the disrespect. That leads to nearly guaranteed self medicating of the worst kind. My mother permitted my living sibling to mistreat her, lie, disrespect her etc after being addicted to several substances many of them illegal she finally is getting her act together. She was high for the last ten years or so. Literally those years are gone to her . Compassion is one thing, indulging in and wallowing in self pity to the extent that your children are learning bad habits of mind is no help to your DSS and is to me an indicator that you have trouble establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries. It is not easy to do and I have been called the B word many times for doing it but I am sane and healthy in spite of the codependent adults that continue to indulge in their adult children's lying, manipulations etc . You are not responsible for what happened, for his feelings, his failures, his disrespect. Until he takes ownership of his inexcusable behaviour your family will continue to spin in circles around him. Flame away but I do know from education and experience what I am talking about

If you want tea and sympathy by all means seek it. I am sad to see that he is continuing to wallow in self pity and manipulating the hell out of the situation. Generally when adults bear the consequences of their actions including lying, they stop. It is unfortunate that you are suffering due to things you have no control over, all you can control is your response.

[74Heaven]

Well, for starters, make it clear you don't believe a word he/she says. Then, live by it. Anything they say "may be true" or "not true". No way of telling short of evidence or facts. Say quietly, once as needed, "I don't believe you." Tell the teen that the trust has been broken. And you don't believe anything they tell you without evidence because they have been continually, routinely dishonest. Tell them it will be up to the teen to rebuild the trust. Then, really wait it out. Pray!

 

Secondly, make sure in every way possible that the 19yo receive the consequences for the lies, i.e. lies about putting gas in the car, let him run out. Lies about where he was, let him walk home. I know these are poor consequences examples, but you get the gist.

 

Say lots of nonjudgmental statements like, "Hmmm. Out past curfew because your watch broke? Oh."

 

Most of all, I'd recommend googling things like "compulsive liar" or "habitual liar" and get educated about what exactly is going on. I would suggest counseling if it is possible.

 

HTH a bit!

Lisa j

[kalanamak]

Is it sophisticated cold-blooded stuff, or stupid teenager stuff? This could be delayed maturity because of his childhood, but man it would still be tough on me.

[m0mmaBuck]

elizabeth, I understand and respect what you are saying (and have said before). I'm not looking for sympathy but rather ideas on how to handle this as it is such foreign territory to me/us. We have discussed having him leave so that perhaps he will be forced to take ownership of his choices but that is truly very hard to do when it seems he has no where to go and no way to provide for himself. It may come to that eventually.

 

Lisa, he refuses counseling. We've gone through 4 different counselors/psychologists/psychologists and he basically doesn't talk and/or holds fast to the idea that he has no problems/issues. Family counseling has not gone well either because he just sits there are says what he thinks we/the counselor want to hear. We do call him out on his lies, but then he tries to back track and say that we didn't understand him. It cycles and cycles. I will definitely google those terms.

 

kalanak... just a few of the more recent examples.... He was supposed to graduate on June 10th but he told me he didn't want to walk because he didn't know any of the other kids graduating (he goes to an alternative school and most of his friends from there were eligible to graduate from their "home" schools) and he told DH he wanted to continue to go to school so he could hang out with his friends until tomorrow, the last day of school. Turns out neither was true but rather that he had not completed his coursework and therefore was not eligible to walk.

 

This weekend our family went camping. He decided not to go. He told DH he was going to work on his schoolwork. He told me he had to work. Turns out he didn't do either but rather he had plans to see a movie and game with friends.

 

His grandfather got him a job helping a friend who is a carpenter. He told the carpenter he couldn't work this summer because he has a job at Cabelas (not true... his only "work" lined up for the summer is mowing 2 lawns).

 

So it's really a lot of little stuff, not anything illegal or dangerous but rather just a neverending pattern of lies. I just don't understand why he doesn't just tell the truth. It's idiotic. To look someone in the eyes and tell them something you know isn't true, knowing they will know what is true, and just not caring.

[kalanamak]

 

So it's really a lot of little stuff, not anything illegal or dangerous but rather just a neverending pattern of lies. I just don't understand why he doesn't just tell the truth. It's idiotic. To look someone in the eyes and tell them something you know isn't true, knowing they will know what is true, and just not caring.

 

And it being really clear it will be "found out" as well. He is not polished, he is "without insight" and childish. I'm not a huge fan of sending everyone to counseling for everything, but given his birth mother and this at 19, I would look into brief directed counseling. Not a shrink, but someone skilled in getting people to tell their own story in a way that makes them see connections they, but perhaps others were not, blind to. HTH.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I'm a big believe in natural consequences. One is already taking place - you don't trust your DSS as much as you once did. With each lie he tells you trust him less and less. Make all of this clear to him. He may turn around and stop the lies.

[Jean in Newcastle]

elizabeth, I understand and respect what you are saying (and have said before). I'm not looking for sympathy but rather ideas on how to handle this as it is such foreign territory to me/us. We have discussed having him leave so that perhaps he will be forced to take ownership of his choices but that is truly very hard to do when it seems he has no where to go and no way to provide for himself. It may come to that eventually.

 

Lisa, he refuses counseling. We've gone through 4 different counselors/psychologists/psychologists and he basically doesn't talk and/or holds fast to the idea that he has no problems/issues. Family counseling has not gone well either because he just sits there are says what he thinks we/the counselor want to hear. We do call him out on his lies, but then he tries to back track and say that we didn't understand him. It cycles and cycles. I will definitely google those terms.

 

kalanak... just a few of the more recent examples.... He was supposed to graduate on June 10th but he told me he didn't want to walk because he didn't know any of the other kids graduating (he goes to an alternative school and most of his friends from there were eligible to graduate from their "home" schools) and he told DH he wanted to continue to go to school so he could hang out with his friends until tomorrow, the last day of school. Turns out neither was true but rather that he had not completed his coursework and therefore was not eligible to walk.

 

This weekend our family went camping. He decided not to go. He told DH he was going to work on his schoolwork. He told me he had to work. Turns out he didn't do either but rather he had plans to see a movie and game with friends.

 

His grandfather got him a job helping a friend who is a carpenter. He told the carpenter he couldn't work this summer because he has a job at Cabelas (not true... his only "work" lined up for the summer is mowing 2 lawns).

 

So it's really a lot of little stuff, not anything illegal or dangerous but rather just a neverending pattern of lies. I just don't understand why he doesn't just tell the truth. It's idiotic. To look someone in the eyes and tell them something you know isn't true, knowing they will know what is true, and just not caring.

 

He needs appropriate consequences.

 

1. Lie about graduation / not finishing coursework. Needs structured time when he has to sit and work on coursework. Extra consequence for the lie.

 

2. Going out with friends instead of what he told you he was going to do - loses an opportunity to go out with friends next time.

 

3. Carpenter job - has to write a letter apologizing to the carpenter.

 

Consequences for patterns of lying. He has to prove his plans to you for work schedules, plans with friends, school. It can be embarrassing to him to have to do this but you can't take him at his word.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[kalanamak]

Consequences for patterns of lying. He has to prove his plans to you for work schedules, plans with friends, school. It can be embarrassing to him to have to do this but you can't take him at his word.

 

 

 

At 14 I would absolutely do this, but 19 is stretching it. 19! (Of course, at that age I'd been entirely self-supporting for over 2 years.) I think he needs to sort this out "with someone" if he's willing, because the nickel should have dropped.

[Liz CA]

It seems to me that he is not mature enough to foresee the consequences of his actions, that he lives in the here and now - much like a young child - and only deals with the fallout as it happens (having to make up excuses on the fly, etc.)

 

I do believe that counseling would be a way to help him. If he does not want to go, you may have to get tough and tell him to leave, as in: Here are the choices: You either agree to counseling and work actively with the counselor to get to a better place in life or you have to leave this home."

Very hard, I know. However, since he is past 18 you cannot decide he goes to counseling because he has the right to refuse as a legal adult. So, tough consequences may be one way to get him to reconsider his choices. When he walks in the park at night and is hungry, he may realize that going to a counselor is perhaps the lesser of two evils - this happened to acquaintances of ours. They implemented this with a very disturbed 18yo and they have seen improvements. Hope you will see improvements as well!

Change will only come when remaining at status quo is more painful than the change.

[Lily_Grace]

I don't know the back story here, but I wanted to say a :iagree: to those above.

 

At 19, your son has the freedom of the adult and the personal responsibility of a child. He needs to be pushed in one direction or the other. Whatever rules and conditions you decide, WRITE IT DOWN. Put it in a contract, with a due date, and hold fast to it. It's too easy to make threats or conditions and forget about them or have things mis-remembered. It's much harder when those words are placed on the refrigerator door. And you have to be willing to do what it takes - if he doesn't see the counselor or finish school, are you willing to kick him out when he makes that choice?

[Aggie]

It seems to me that he is not mature enough to foresee the consequences of his actions, that he lives in the here and now - much like a young child - and only deals with the fallout as it happens (having to make up excuses on the fly, etc.)

 

 

Change will only come when remaining at status quo is more painful than the change.

 

Very true.

 

Has he been evaluated for some personality disorder?

 

I can't imagine being in your position.:grouphug: I can't abide lies, either, and my dc know it.

 

He's got a good life right now. He doesn't have to work or go to school. He's got everything he needs, right? He has no motivation to stop his lies. There are no consequences for not graduating or taking a job that was handed to him on a silver platter.

 

For a 19yo, I think I might give him 2 options: leave or get a job and start paying his way around the house. I'd charge him room and board, and I wouldn't pay a dime for anything he wants or needs. No phone, no computer or tv, no vehicle. It would be a pain, but I would drive him to work and make him pay for a cab or bus to get home.

 

If he can't get a job, he'd be digging holes and filling them up in my yard. Sounds like some good physical work might do him some good. If he refused, well...he'd get bread and water for meals.

 

There is no way a young person with this lack of character would sit around my house all day consuming resources provided to him and lie about major issues. What you listed is not little stuff. It's major, imo.

 

Praying for the best for you and your family.

 

ETA: Your younger dc are looking at all this, too. By seeing your ss get away with all this, it's cementing in their minds that it's ok. If you have no other motivation to get ss straightened out, or moved out, please think about what your other dc are learning from their brother. :grouphug:

Edited June 22, 2011 by Aggie

[Halftime Hope]

aside from ElizabethB's suggestion, it seems to me that a lot of the consequences you all have mentioned are simply unenforceable unless the teen is willing to allow the parents to enforce them. Bread and water? Only if they are willing to install a lock on the pantry door and he doesn't break it down. Dig holes? Only if he is willing or compelled by their commands. Let him know that they are crushed by the lack of trust so that he feels remorse and wants to change it? Only if he cares.

 

OP, in my experience with a friend's teen and going through something somewhat similar with a passive-aggressive teen, aside from shooting straight and being brutally honest (which some have articulated quite well), I'm afraid there is very little you can other than being willing to put him out on the street and allow life to school him.

 

It truly stinks, but sometimes it is the best thing for them and for the health and sanity of the rest of the family.

[WishboneDawn]

 

So it's really a lot of little stuff, not anything illegal or dangerous but rather just a neverending pattern of lies. I just don't understand why he doesn't just tell the truth. It's idiotic.

 

But it works, right? He got out of a job and got to spend the weekend with his friends rather then camping. As long as it works for him, why should he stop?

 

This is not familiar territory for me either so feel free to ignore this advice but it seems to me what you should be doing is not give him choices and/or limiting the answers.

 

If there's something he shouldn't be able to get out of unless he has a good excuse ( summer job) then don't give him the choice at all. He can't get out of out anymore and HAS to do it and there's nothing he can say that will make a difference. Make it clear that it's because you can't trust his excuses. Don't let it get into any argument, don't explain yourself further, just maintain he doesn't have a choice. Adopt the, "pass the bean dip," strategy.

 

If it's a choice that he doesn't need a good excuse to get out of (family event) then make it clear that all you want to hear is yes or no, nothing else, no excuses or reasons or elaboration of any kind.

 

Hopefully this would carry two messages. One, that lying won't work anymore and in fact has led to him having to do things he used to have a choice about and two, that the habit of creating stories to explain his choices is something no one wants any part of anymore.

 

A this point maybe it really is just a habit and since there's little cost to continuing the habit, why change?

 

He's older, I know, so I don't know if you can manage to enforce the stuff but really, if you can't and it's getting too stressful for your family, he should leave. He's an adult. He'd very likely find a place to live in pretty short order.

[bookfiend]

This is a man, not a child. He needs to be emancipated; willingly or no. He will thank you eventually.

 

Do you have a timeframe for his independence, does he? What specific steps is he taking to getting there? I say this as someone who watched her brother play these games with my parents into his 30's!!! They eventually sold the house and left the state; before he took resposibility for his own life.

 

Here is one plan -

Set him up in a studio apartment with the bare essentials; pay the first two months rent. Give him decreasing amounts of support for the remainder of the year. The rest will be up to him to manage. People become very resourceful and motivated when their primary needs are at stake.

[Mommyfaithe]

Very true.

 

Has he been evaluated for some personality disorder?

 

I can't imagine being in your position.:grouphug: I can't abide lies, either, and my dc know it.

 

He's got a good life right now. He doesn't have to work or go to school. He's got everything he needs, right? He has no motivation to stop his lies. There are no consequences for not graduating or taking a job that was handed to him on a silver platter.

 

For a 19yo, I think I might give him 2 options: leave or get a job and start paying his way around the house. I'd charge him room and board, and I wouldn't pay a dime for anything he wants or needs. No phone, no computer or tv, no vehicle. It would be a pain, but I would drive him to work and make him pay for a cab or bus to get home.

 

If he can't get a job, he'd be digging holes and filling them up in my yard. Sounds like some good physical work might do him some good. If he refused, well...he'd get bread and water for meals.

 

There is no way a young person with this lack of character would sit around my house all day consuming resources provided to him and lie about major issues. What you listed is not little stuff. It's major, imo.

 

Praying for the best for you and your family.

 

ETA: Your younger dc are looking at all this, too. By seeing your ss get away with all this, it's cementing in their minds that it's ok. If you have no other motivation to get ss straightened out, or moved out, please think about what your other dc are learning from their brother. :grouphug:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I would NOT be financing his nonsense. I would...and have...simply cut the purse strings. No financing whatsoever....and I would make him contribute to the household or move out. No bones about it. He's got it good and he needs to know it. And be sure the little ones are watching and taking notes. Seriously. :grouphug::grouphug:

This is such a tough one....but when you love someone, sometimes you have to do hard things to help them.

 

By the way, I have a 20 year old son who is finding out sometimes life is hard.

 

Faithe

[Chris in VA]

Just asking--is alcohol, sex or any other drug involved in his life?

Has he had any trauma counseling?

Forgive me for forgetting if you've provided that info--I do remember some of his story, but not that.

 

The people we work with re our ds say that one's maturity stagnates around the time the addiction or trauma occurs. It takes work to "catch up." Sounds like he has stagnated in terms of how he approaches conflict and the denial of his wants.

 

I totally understand why you don't want to tell him to leave. :grouphug: I'm dealing with that myself.

 

I do think a contract is in order--complete with curfew, getting a job, contributing some of the money from that job to the household, and plans to get his GED or graduate. Put a "must participate in family counseling" proviso in there. In return, you agree to provide food, clothing allowance (maybe $200 or so--not extravagent, and you go shopping with him, not just hand him the $), and payment for a GED class or whatever. If the contract is broken, he leaves. Perhaps allow a grace period--don't expect perfection, but don't let him walk all over it and not provide a consequence--an enforceable consequence, not a punishment. Sort of 3 strikes you are out (of the house).

 

You have to stop trying to save him. :grouphug: This is it--time for him to grow up. You can help, but he gets to say no to that help.

 

It is not a reflection on you--let him choose.

 

I really know the road you are walking.

[texasmama]

Just got through the first page of responses but here is my free of charge two cents.

 

Counseling will most likely be futile at this point, as it has proved futile in the past. He is not invested in changing. His current situation is working very well for him, which is why he continues to do what he is doing. Humans are behavioral animals at heart. We do things because, on some level, there is a payoff, a benefit...Sometimes this benefit is hard to see, but in this situation, it is crystal clear. He lives in your home, eats your food and doesn't have to put forth any real effort for these things.

 

However difficult it is to set limits, parents do young adult kids (and kids in general) a disservice by providing financial support to someone who is irresponsible. This just enables him to continue to be irresponsible. This is not about anyone's feelings. It is about the wasted life of a young man. There is time for him to turn around, but some severe boundaries need to be set.

 

In your shoes (I would like to think - because it is much harder to walk this out than to just speak of it), I would set a deadline for him to have a job earning X amount of money. Then charge him rent to live with you - an amount that equals about 30% of his take home pay. Make these goals realistic and achievable but not comfortable and easy. Comfortable and easy doesn't teach character. If he doesn't get a job or quits after a week, set a deadline for him to move out of the house. You are loving, caring and willing to help someone who is showing responsibility but not someone who is irresponsible. Nothing is gained for him, for you and for larger society by endorsing irresponsibilty. He is not likely to "grow out"of this. This is who he has chosen to be. If change occurs, it will be internally-directed because he has proven that external direction is futile to change his behavior.

 

Good luck.:grouphug:

[Chris in VA]

I agree with the PP. Google "stages of change" and you can see where he is on the continuum. Look at it for yourself, too--even tho you may be ready to see a change in your situation, you may not be ready to do what you must do in order to help effect that change.

Again, I'm saying this to myself as well as to you. :grouphug:

[bookfiend]

You had the skills to go to college, keep a job and keep house though...sounds like this young man isn't that far along. He's more like a 14 year old - no education, no skill training, no competencies other than the lawnmower. His chance of success is not that good. He may be better off in the military with training than in a studio apt trying to figure it all out.

 

Right, so regardless of the path chosen the question remains, what steps are being taken to move him forward toward independence? When the young adult lacks internal motivation, the parents then are forced to make his enviroment the external motivation.

 

While the OP's question relates to lying, all of the examples she provided were of the DSS maniplating in order to have the easy life he is currently enjoying. I somewhat recall he has had a tough childhood. I'm not unsympathetic. However, I watched my brilliant brother get hooked into drugs and then basically play my parents for over a decade. He was always the victim, there was always an excuse.

 

There is real mercy and love in forcing someone to grow up and live the life they have been given or the one they have chosen.

[Amy in NH]

But it works, right?

 

If there's something he shouldn't be able to get out of unless he has a good excuse ( summer job) then don't give him the choice at all. He can't get out of out anymore and HAS to do it and there's nothing he can say that will make a difference. Make it clear that it's because you can't trust his excuses. Don't let it get into any argument, don't explain yourself further, just maintain he doesn't have a choice. Adopt the, "pass the bean dip," strategy.

 

If it's a choice that he doesn't need a good excuse to get out of (family event) then make it clear that all you want to hear is yes or no, nothing else, no excuses or reasons or elaboration of any kind.

 

He's older, I know, so I don't know if you can manage to enforce the stuff but really, if you can't and it's getting too stressful for your family, he should leave. He's an adult. He'd very likely find a place to live in pretty short order.

 

:iagree:

[Night Elf]

OP, in my experience with a friend's teen and going through something somewhat similar with a passive-aggressive teen, aside from shooting straight and being brutally honest (which some have articulated quite well), I'm afraid there is very little you can other than being willing to put him out on the street and allow life to school him.

 

:iagree: And here is my longish story. Sorry!

 

I witnessed this same thing with my dd19's ex-boyfriend. We are still friends with him and his family so I was able to talk with his mom while this was happening. He didn't want to have any responsibilities. He was happy to graduate high school and didn't show any interest in any plan other than hanging out with his friends. She gave him time to decompress. Afterall, hard decisions don't have to be made in the summer following graduation, but he got worse by fall. Not only was he still not doing anything productive, he was taking advantage of his new adult status in life. He was out very late every night, returning home in the wee a.m. hours. He refused to do any help around the house because he was no longer a kid. He not only ate a great deal himself, but he gave food to his friends. He expected money without working. They started having some really bad arguments. She was just beside herself. She finally put her foot down. He called her bluff, packed a bag and left. It was one of the hardest things she had ever done.

 

That first night, he actually ended up at my house. He stayed here for 2 nights. He tried to give some story to my dd about how his mom threw him out but I calmly laid out the truth. My dd was stunned and this friend insisted I did not have all the real information. He continued to play victim. Well, he bounced from one friend's house to anothers, until he slowly started losing places to stay because the parents were tired of all the time he was spending at their houses. After mooching off friends for 4 months, he finally got a job working at the same place as my dd, and he went back home. I won't say things just got easier, but I know they did improve a great deal.

 

Tough love. I told his mom that I couldn't imagine how hard it was to have to do what she did. She absolutely hated it, but in the end, she was right and he knew it. He's learning. He's not totally with it though, my dd19 had to fire him last week. It was another reality jolt. We're waiting to see what he's going to do next. But I do know that his mom isn't going to allow things to go back to the way they were. I think I'll track him down today and talk to him. Ugh.

[Night Elf]

You had the skills to go to college, keep a job and keep house though...sounds like this young man isn't that far along. He's more like a 14 year old - no education, no skill training, no competencies other than the lawnmower. His chance of success is not that good. He may be better off in the military with training than in a studio apt trying to figure it all out.

 

How exactly did you deduce that he has no education, skill training, or competencies? I went back and reread what the OP wrote and all I saw was that he didn't complete his coursework needed to graduate and didn't want to take a job as a carpenter's assistant. As for the education, for all we know, he is one class from graduating. I would assume he is definitely considered a senior if he was at the point that graduation was happening. And we can't know what he does and does not know how to do based solely on him not taking that job.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Very true.

 

Has he been evaluated for some personality disorder?

 

I can't imagine being in your position.:grouphug: I can't abide lies, either, and my dc know it.

 

He's got a good life right now. He doesn't have to work or go to school. He's got everything he needs, right? He has no motivation to stop his lies. There are no consequences for not graduating or taking a job that was handed to him on a silver platter.

 

For a 19yo, I think I might give him 2 options: leave or get a job and start paying his way around the house. I'd charge him room and board, and I wouldn't pay a dime for anything he wants or needs. No phone, no computer or tv, no vehicle. It would be a pain, but I would drive him to work and make him pay for a cab or bus to get home.

 

If he can't get a job, he'd be digging holes and filling them up in my yard. Sounds like some good physical work might do him some good. If he refused, well...he'd get bread and water for meals.

 

There is no way a young person with this lack of character would sit around my house all day consuming resources provided to him and lie about major issues. What you listed is not little stuff. It's major, imo.

 

Praying for the best for you and your family.

 

ETA: Your younger dc are looking at all this, too. By seeing your ss get away with all this, it's cementing in their minds that it's ok. If you have no other motivation to get ss straightened out, or moved out, please think about what your other dc are learning from their brother. :grouphug:

 

:iagree:

[m0mmaBuck]

Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I don't have time to read them all right now but I will be back to pour over this with a cup of coffee! Thank you!

[bookfiend]

This can only be answered by the OP.

 

Agreed; I should have more accurately stated that the questions I pose while essential aren't meant to be answered publicly or by anyone other than the OP and her family.

 

There is no honor in setting a teen up for failure. I don't know the OP's situation, but what I see in my extended family is the same as the cultures around me. Some parents do not mentor the teen to the point that he becomes a capable adult. They will not train in life skills, nor will they assure the child has the opportunity and personal skills to acquire a trade or career - they simply hand the kid a car at 16 and fund the party lifestyle, or they drop the kid at 18 with a boot out the door after ignoring his needs from 12 on. Other parents have a culture of ensuring that the teen acquires the skills and responsibilities that he needs to function as a competent healthy adult as well as the means to support himself. It is so bad around here with the dysfuction from the nearest major city that the school districts have set up school to work programs..they literally teach the teens to cook, to bathe, to dress for employment, to converse, to read the clock, and then go on to teach them trade skills so at 17 or 18 when they will be kicked out, they will have a chance at life above the drug dealer level. And then you have people like my nephew - an enabler hands them everything. They do nothing but eat and play.

 

My recall is that the OP had little influence in the DSS's parenting, and he is only recently living with them. Regardless, it is impossible to backfill character defects with consequences that are more suited to her 9 and 5 yr olds. They have to meet him where he is now in life. Unfortunately, the lessons learned at 19 are much weightier, and decisions carry heavier consequences. One would hope the lessons are also more quickly learned.

 

Someone who is working hard, telling the truth, interested in counseling, desires betterment; yes, that is the person you are gentle with. That is the person you undergird and help move along. Someone who lies, manipulates and doesn't want to change; they won't learn from the gentle road. They will just continue to take advantage and suck the life out of the rest of the family. Sometimes I think they love the drama and attention.

 

Ultimately, you can't make someone succeed, or change. You just can't. Which is why I say - the very tough road, in the end is actually the most merciful and loving.

Edited June 22, 2011 by bookfiend
clarification

[Joanne]

If I remember the back story, (bio)mom committed suicide and there are many markers for mental illness on the maternal side of the family, yes?

 

It might help to understand the "stupid" lying is related to retarded development and lack of mature impulse control.

 

It might also help to know that trauma changes the brains of people, and even more so of still-growing and developing people. He doesn't act normal because he's not. He was likely pre-disposed to manifesting mental illness and the trauma, changing his brain, exacerbated it.

 

Now, as much clinical understanding as I just offered, I would still take a hard line. I'd let him know he's used up his honesty-grant. You can't and won't trust him for years to come. I'd write a contract of behavior needed to stay in my home, and he gets one chance to honor the contract. There will be no believing his excuses when he fails (which he will).

 

He'd have to find another place to live. Harsh reality for this man/boy. But I'd go to the ends of the earth should he want to engage with therapeutic interventions to actually make things better. Until/if then, I'd protect the rest of my family and my sanity.

[m0mmaBuck]

This is my 3rd attempt at responding so hopefully the forum won’t eat this one too. I had a really long post with personal responses to many people but alas… I tried to post and apparently I timed out on my log in. This time I’m just doing a blanket response so forgive me but I really did read all of your responses and thank you all for your advice and insight.

For a little backstory, DSS came to live with us when he was nearly 16. Before that, he lived with his mom on the other side of the country and our visitations were very infrequent in spite of court orders. There were even periods of time where DSS’s mom wouldn’t allow him to talk to DH on the phone out of spite. Nonetheless, when he came to live with us he already had many issues including lack of self-esteem, poor work ethic, poor grades, lack of motivation, living only in the here-and-now with no short or long term goals, issues with lying, etc. We did some family and individual counseling at this time to try to work through his issues as well as trying to get him on board with the morals/values of our family and to evaluate for mental illness given the history of his mom’s side. Then his mom committed suicide in January 2010. He did have grief and trauma counseling at that time although he denied needing anything the entire time. He didn’t manage to graduate that year (but he did get his Eagle Scout) so we have given him this year to focus on himself, short and long term goals, etc. He did some counseling, testing, life coaching, and family counseling although every professional gave us the same line: We can’t help him because he sees nothing wrong with the path he is on. He did manage to graduate as he brought home his diploma today! I am very happy about this.

In January 2011 we told him he needs to have his short and long term goals for post-graduation to us in writing by June 30th or we will be asking him to leave. He has not, as of yet, done anything toward this end. I believe it may be possible that he is looking for us to kick him out so we are the “bad guys” and he is poor, persecuted H.

He does have freedom. He has a vehicle at his disposal (although he has to pay for gas, maintenance, and insurance). He does has to write a “trip permit” when he goes anywhere but work or school to tell us where he is going, the “schedule,” who he is going to be with, and their contact information. He has disappeared before and at least this gives us an idea of who he is hanging out with. He has a computer, cell phone, and TV that we pay for. We have discussed taking these away or making him pay for them so that his life here is less comfortable, but we’ve done that in the past and he chose to sleep his days away. We don’t tell him what jobs to take but since he doesn’t have anything lined up (beyond mowing 2 lawns/wk), when a job is offered to him we expect him to do it until something better comes along. The job working for the carpenter was mainly as a “hired back” so little to no skill is required, just muscle. I feel that it is irresponsible of him to turn down work when he has no other options on the table.

He does have a skill set. He is now a high school graduate. He’s an Eagle Scout. He has taken classes in DigiPen, PC Hardware, CAD/CAM Plastic works… He has had 2 seasonal retail jobs. He knows how to cook, clean, balance a check book, do laundry, etc.

All that aside, our main concerns at this point, besides the lack of a plan, are the level of disrespect he shows through lying and not following through on chores, requests, and just common decency, and the example he is setting for his younger siblings. The lying is a nail in the coffin for me because if I can’t trust what someone says, I don’t want to be around them. It’s sad because I love him. He is my son. But he is choosing to be a person that I don’t like. I guess it’s a choice. I’d like to think he doesn’t know better but I know he does. His maturity level is on the level of about a 14 yo (which, interestingly, is the time in his life where his mom had sent him to live with us and then after two weeks she had us send him back to GA) but 14 is not his reality. He is 19 and he needs to start behaving more like a man. I can tolerate a lot but the lies I cannot.

I like the idea of an honesty contract. He knows where we stand on the lying and that neither of us trust him at his word at this point but having something in writing may keep it front and center in his mind. I like the idea of pursuing more therapy although he has to be willing to actually admit there are issues for anything to work. There is a history of mental illness on the mom’s side so we have always tried to look for signs in him. And we have the “life plan or out” deal on the table for June 30th as it is so I don’t want to add more to that at this time but if he does manage to come up with and follow through on a plan that would be excellent. When that date passes, if he does follow through and stay here, we will most likely draw up a “Code of Conduct” for his remaining here.

Thank you again for the ideas. I appreciate you all taking the time to post.

[kalanamak]

\every professional gave us the same line: We can’t help him because he sees nothing wrong with the path he is on.

 

In January 2011 we told him he needs to have his short and long term goals for post-graduation to us in writing by June 30th or we will be asking him to leave. He has not, as of yet, done anything toward this end. I believe it may be possible that he is looking for us to kick him out so we are the “bad guys†and he is poor, persecuted H.

 

 

Ugh. He's going to have to learn the hard way the path he is on is wrong.

 

I hope, if I'm ever in this situation, I would have the backbone to keep the ultimatum you gave in January. I believe all the wild wolf-packs in your area were exterminated 100 years ago, and that it is not freezing out.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[justamouse]

Just posting to let you know you're not alone. Mine s 20. And, he is looking for jobs, but they are far and few between.

 

So, :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[m0mmaBuck]

Ugh. He's going to have to learn the hard way the path he is on is wrong.

 

I hope, if I'm ever in this situation, I would have the backbone to keep the ultimatum you gave in January. I believe all the wild wolf-packs in your area were exterminated 100 years ago, and that it is not freezing out.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Thanks. I hope we have the backbone for it too. If his mom was still alive, he would probably be living in her basement by now... But that is no longer an option.

 

I hope he pulls through on the "life plan." I had to remind him again tonight that he needs to have documentation from some other source showing he has put time/effort into the process since we will not be taking him at his word. This was made clear to him in writing back in January yet he had decided that him typing up a few lines on what he planned to do should suffice. That is not, nor has never, been the case. He needs to have taken the admissions test for and applied to the local community college or have some sort of pending contract with the military or a stack of job apps he has submitted to show us he has a plan and a way to implement it. Since he is leaning toward military, I am taking him to see all of the recruiters tomorrow to find out what options he actually has.

[m0mmaBuck]

Just posting to let you know you're not alone. Mine s 20. And, he is looking for jobs, but they are far and few between.

 

So, :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

This parenting thing is hard!

[Rosy]

It sounds like you have a good plan as far as the June 30th ultimatum...I might remind him of this and ask him if he needs any help, as the 30th is looming. I would probably come up with a solid exit strategy before that date to present to him (which day he has to be out, what he can take with him, what support he will receive before and after, if any)--it could be that once he knows you're serious, he'll reconsider and get his life together.

 

It could also be, though, that he thinks the grass is greener on his friend's couch. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. One thing is for certain--he isn't learning now, and something needs to change, for his sake as much as yours.

 

I hope to never be in this position myself...I do not envy you. :( Just don't be afraid to make the hard choices--more than anything, he needs you & your DH to be his parents.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It sounds like you have a good plan as far as the June 30th ultimatum...I might remind him of this and ask him if he needs any help, as the 30th is looming. I would probably come up with a solid exit strategy before that date to present to him (which day he has to be out, what he can take with him, what support he will receive before and after, if any)--it could be that once he knows you're serious, he'll reconsider and get his life together.

 

It could also be, though, that he thinks the grass is greener on his friend's couch. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way. One thing is for certain--he isn't learning now, and something needs to change, for his sake as much as yours.

 

I hope to never be in this position myself...I do not envy you. :( Just don't be afraid to make the hard choices--more than anything, he needs you & your DH to be his parents.

 

:iagree: You also need to decide with your dh if you will allow him to come back under any circumstance and if so, what those circumstances will be.

[Rosy]

:iagree: You also need to decide with your dh if you will allow him to come back under any circumstance and if so, what those circumstances will be.

Yes. My kids are obviously younger, but my in-laws have been through this with my SIL off and on for about 20 years. She has left and come back more times than we can count, they've furnished homes for her that she has walked away from, she has lost custody of children...it has been devastating. I don't know if my MIL and FIL could have done anything that would have helped, but they've never been on the same page, and it has always been an issue for them. Drawing a firm boundary that you can both agree on won't "save" your DSS, but it will relieve you from rescuing him and will protect your family....and maybe allow him to experience the consequences of his actions so he can make the necessary changes.

[m0mmaBuck]

Rosy and Jean, I did speak with him tonight during dinner RE: the specific requirements of the "life plan." I told him I plan to take him to all of the recruiters as well as to the college admissions office to explore his options. It is an excellent idea to have an "exit strategy" in place as well as a plan for what circumstances would allow for his return. Thank you both!

[Hedgehog]

Michelle - no advice, just :grouphug:

 

We have a similar situation in our family (the details of which I'm not going to make public, just in case). But it is SO hard to watch.

[Joanne]

All that aside, our main concerns at this point, besides the lack of a plan, are the level of disrespect he shows through lying and not following through on chores, requests, and just common decency, and the example he is setting for his younger siblings. The lying is a nail in the coffin for me because if I can’t trust what someone says, I don’t want to be around them. It’s sad because I love him. He is my son. But he is choosing to be a person that I don’t like. I guess it’s a choice. I’d like to think he doesn’t know better but I know he does. His maturity level is on the level of about a 14 yo (which, interestingly, is the time in his life where his mom had sent him to live with us and then after two weeks she had us send him back to GA) but 14 is not his reality. He is 19 and he needs to start behaving more like a man. I can tolerate a lot but the lies I cannot.

I like the idea of an honesty contract. He knows where we stand on the lying and that neither of us trust him at his word at this point but having something in writing may keep it front and center in his mind. I like the idea of pursuing more therapy although he has to be willing to actually admit there are issues for anything to work. There is a history of mental illness on the mom’s side so we have always tried to look for signs in him. And we have the “life plan or out†deal on the table for June 30th as it is so I don’t want to add more to that at this time but if he does manage to come up with and follow through on a plan that would be excellent. When that date passes, if he does follow through and stay here, we will most likely draw up a “Code of Conduct†for his remaining here.

Thank you again for the ideas. I appreciate you all taking the time to post.

 

I hear your frustration and sadness. I also hear, though, unrealistic expectations for this child. You bring your intensity about dishonesty and lying to a traumatized, developmentally challenged chronological adult. Read my other post; I am not suggesting he be permissively responded too. But I am suggesting that your acknowledging his "14 year old" development while also "not being able to tolerate lies" is hurting BOTH of you. He understands your words, but can not control himself.

[QueenCat]

:grouphug::grouphug: No advice, I don't know what I'd do in this situation. Especially considering he is not mentally/socially at his chronological age. Just know you aren't alone.