Catholic Moms/Common Misconceptions?

[Murphy101]

There are christian leaders that would be offended, but none of them would be wearing a clerical collar, at least I don't think so. The ones that wear the collar either would be want to be called Father, or would at least understand and not be offended.

 

I concur.:)

[eternalknot]

You ask him.;)

 

A few denominations use the term and dress code too, tho catholic ones seem to stay in uniform outside the church more than others.

 

Just directly? Like, "Pardon me, are you Catholic?"

 

I'd feel so awkward! If he answered yes, I could say "Hello, Father," and feel okay with the exchange. If he answered no, I'd be at a loss for words! And mortified! I'm not quick at recovering socially awkward situations LOL.

 

He's still sitting there. I guess there's no time like the present to try it out.

 

Signed,

Fraidy Cat

[eternalknot]

There are christian leaders that would be offended, but none of them would be wearing a clerical collar, at least I don't think so. The ones that wear the collar either would be want to be called Father, or would at least understand and not be offended.

 

That's good to know. I appreciate it. I think it better to err on the side of caution. I'm going to google the collar to learn a little bit more about it, and who'd wear it (and why).

 

These threads have been very helpful, and I sincerely appreciate everyone's contributions!

[Murphy101]

Just directly? Like, "Pardon me, are you Catholic?"

 

I'd feel so awkward! If he answered yes, I could say "Hello, Father," and feel okay with the exchange. If he answered no, I'd be at a loss for words! And mortified! I'm not quick at recovering socially awkward situations LOL.

 

He's still sitting there. I guess there's no time like the present to try it out.

 

Signed,

Fraidy Cat

 

Trust me. Priests get all kinds of questions from strangers and being asked if they are a catholic priest is the very least awkward.

 

I'd just say I was curious bc I just happened to be reading a discussion about misconceptions of Roman Catholics on the Internet and was finding it very interesting.

 

Really. Priests can get some very negative reactions in public. He would probably like pleasant conversation from a curious and nice person.

[Murphy101]

Besides that...

 

I cannot tell you how often total strangers walk up to me when I'm out with all the kids and ask "OMG are you catholic or something?"

 

So I'm betting you would not be the first to ask.:)

[extendedforecast]

Just directly? Like, "Pardon me, are you Catholic?"

 

I'd feel so awkward! If he answered yes, I could say "Hello, Father," and feel okay with the exchange. If he answered no, I'd be at a loss for words! And mortified! I'm not quick at recovering socially awkward situations LOL.

 

He's still sitting there. I guess there's no time like the present to try it out.

 

Signed,

Fraidy Cat

 

Ask him. I don't think he'll be offended. :lurk5:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

 

He's still sitting there. I guess there's no time like the present to try it out.

 

Signed,

Fraidy Cat

 

So was he?

[Teachin'Mine]

I'll bet they've struck up a conversation. :)

 

Martha you're right; I was thinking of diocesan priests specifically.

[Parrothead]

 

 

 

Which I will not do. It's personal and not up for other people's armchair judgment. I took it to my priest, he called for economia as he is permitted to do (and is done in the EO), and it is between God, my priest, my husband, and myself.

Amen to the bolded.

 

 

 

 

...I also think that this kind of thinking is what opens others to false judgment when they are open to life, but unable to have children/more children. It's unkind to make assumptions about people or their reasons...

Amen. I can't tell you how many times because we only have one child that it is assumed dh and I are not following church teachings. They don't see the years of pain or how their judgement continues to bring the loss to the forefront.

 

Whatever. If all people have to do is judge others then they have a pretty sad life.

 

If you are bleeding to death, I'm thinking you aren't having sex at that time and conception is unlikely?

 

No where does the RCC say anyone shouldn't have more children than they can care for. The RCC says a couple MAY validly take these things into consideration wrt using NFP IF they feel led to do so.

Not specifically but a couple must use their God-given common sense.

 

There is NEVER any requirement to avoid children, via NFP or otherwise.

 

 

 

If I can't have sex, for any reason, there isn't much to discuss.

I am not one spouse.

We are one marriage.

Whether it is because of a car wreck that damages my lower body beyond use or some other situation, my dh is expected to love and care for me as himself just the same. Same goes for me with him.

 

I am not judging momma duck. She isn't RCC and is following the tenets of HER faith and situation. I have no idea how open or not she has ever been to life and it isn't for me to say. Even if she were RC, she wouldn't be the first person who made a decision against the faith out of fear or uncertainty or spousal pressure or whatever. And she wouldn't be the first forgiven for it either.:grouphug:

 

All I can do is explain the RCC.

Honestly I think it is great that you are such a staunch supporter of church teaching. But your words are a bit hurtful whether you meant them to be or not. I'll suggest a bit of delicacy for such a delicate topic. There are too many stories here that we cannot know all the details of. I know bits of mommaduck's so I have a bit of different perspective.

 

It is not up to me to judge either and that was not my intention. If I sounded like I was then I apologize. I do agree in that couples have to make that call for their marriages. Like you all I can do is explain. EO and RC view this very differently and there needs to be a distinction made.

But you can't go into ABC or sterilization knowing full well what the RC Church says and then go to confession. It is a much different when you are limited in your knowledge about this then ask for forgiveness.

Very good point.

*sigh* I give up. Unlike what has been implied, I'm not ignorant nor am I in need of forgiveness on the matter. Thanks anyway.

I'm sorry. :grouphug:

Am I reading your initial post wrong, where you called sterilization "a vicious act against the body"?

 

And am I correct that someone (EO) had already posted that they had a tubal?

Yes, but since the person in question is EO it is a totally different situation since the EO church has a different teaching.

I'll be upfront and say I was enjoying this thread and learning a lot but your harshness was upsetting. I thought calling it a vicious act was a rather harsh opinion to jump in with on a thread about gently and kindly helping people with misconceptions about the Catholic church. (Of course, I'm not a fan of apologies that begin with "IF I ... ")

 

I'll just say again this is a delicate topic. For some people it is a very painful topic. Those who know church teaching yet go against church teaching (I'm thinking RC here) do so, more often than not, after prayerful consideration. Their decision is between them and God and not fodder for discussion.

[Parrothead]

Somewhat sidetracking this, not out of disinterest for the current topic but because something is happening to me right now ... and this thread was on the first page. A question:

 

In public (outside of church property), how does one distinguish a Catholic priest from a priest (pastor? official?) of a non-Catholic denomination?

 

I'm sitting at the airport, people watching. A priest is sitting across from me reading the newspaper. I'm curious if he's Catholic, or not. He's wearing black slacks, a short-sleeved black dress shirt, and the white collar.

 

Also, do all Christians call their officiants "Father," or is this way of addressing unique to Catholics?

 

Background on me: I've never been Christian, but agreed to raise my children in the Catholic church. I have minor curiosities about these things, but never seem to remember to ask them when the few IRL Catholics I know are around :blush:

No, all Christians do not all their officiants "Father." Reverend should work for any collared cleric you meet.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Parrothead

[Carrie12345]

There are christian leaders that would be offended, but none of them would be wearing a clerical collar, at least I don't think so. The ones that wear the collar either would be want to be called Father, or would at least understand and not be offended.

 

Oh, I have a feeling my former female pastor probably would have taken some offense to being called Father. :D

[Parrothead]

The best way to know if he's a RC priest is to ask him. :) Priests often dress in black and with their collar in public' date=' but not always. There is no dress code, that I know of, for when they're not saying Mass.[/quote']

There are actually very few times a Catholic priest is to be in street clothes. Church law insists that the priest wear “suitable clerical clothing, according to the norms issued by the Episcopal Conference and according to legitimate local customs.†(Canon 284)

[Parrothead]

Actually, it depends on what order they are in. Some orders are very strict about dress and require they always be in approved garb. Some don't.

Not all priests belong to a religious order.

[Parrothead]

Thank you, Ellen! I have plenty of time today, so I'm going to poke around that website today :)

 

For you or anyone else, I have a part two question about the use of "Father," -- would it be wrong to greet a church officiant in that way, or is that assumptuous as to his denomination? For instance, if I'm unsure which title is appropriate to his denomination, is it inproper to say: "Good morning, Father," as I pass by him? Is there a better generic term to address an officiant by, when I don't know which church he belongs to?

You could just drop the "Father" and say either "Good morning" or "Good morning, sir."

[Parrothead]

Just directly? Like, "Pardon me, are you Catholic?"

 

I'd feel so awkward! If he answered yes, I could say "Hello, Father," and feel okay with the exchange. If he answered no, I'd be at a loss for words! And mortified! I'm not quick at recovering socially awkward situations LOL.

 

He's still sitting there. I guess there's no time like the present to try it out.

 

Signed,

Fraidy Cat

You could just say, "Thank you. I was looking for a Catholic priest," if the gentleman indicates he is not Catholic.

[~Kirsten~]

But you can't go into ABC or sterilization knowing full well what the RC Church says and then go to confession. It is a much different when you are limited in your knowledge about this then ask for forgiveness.

 

Um, I question this. There are things I go to Confession for, and I know that they're wrong before I do them. That's how sin works. I work on my faults; I am sorry for my faults. But it's not always things about which I have limited knowledge that come up in Confession. There is always, always forgiveness, if you're repentant.

 

Obviously, one shouldn't work the "loop holes," so to speak. Obviously, if one deliberately had a surgery now, knowing she wanted to join the RCC and it would at that point be forbidden, than there's a bit of an issue there. And to have Confession be effective, my understanding is that she would need to actually feel badly and sorry for that decision. But to say that you can't do it, or to imply that there wouldn't be forgiveness...I don't believe that's right.

 

Of course, I might be misunderstanding.

[Parrothead]

Oh, I have a feeling my former female pastor probably would have taken some offense to being called Father. :D

:lol:

[Parrothead]

Um, I question this. There are things I go to Confession for, and I know that they're wrong before I do them. That's how sin works. I work on my faults; I am sorry for my faults. But it's not always things about which I have limited knowledge that come up in Confession. There is always, always forgiveness, if you're repentant.

 

Obviously, one shouldn't work the "loop holes," so to speak. Obviously, if one deliberately had a surgery now, knowing she wanted to join the RCC and it would at that point be forbidden, than there's a bit of an issue there. And to have Confession be effective, my understanding is that she would need to actually feel badly and sorry for that decision. But to say that you can't do it, or to imply that there wouldn't be forgiveness...I don't believe that's right.

 

Of course, I might be misunderstanding.

One can not commit a mortal sin with the assumption that one will be forgiven in the confessional.

 

So I can't decide while I'm lifting the candy bar at the store that I'll be okay tomorrow because I'm going to confession this evening.

 

It is that whole "Catholics can be bad during the week because they can just go to Confession on Saturdays and be okay for church on Sunday." It doesn't work that way

[Murphy101]

Amen. I can't tell you how many times because we only have one child that it is assumed dh and I are not following church teachings.

 

I agree. There are many many reasons why a RC couple might have one child or none and it is wrong to presume anything.

 

Honestly I think it is great that you are such a staunch supporter of church teaching. But your words are a bit hurtful whether you meant them to be or not. I'll suggest a bit of delicacy for such a delicate topic.

 

I have been delicate. If we are discussing what the RCC teaches, then my being so delicate that I don't answer the question with clarity and honesty makes discussion rather moot.

 

Those who know church teaching yet go against church teaching (I'm thinking RC here) do so, more often than not, after prayerful consideration. Their decision is between them and God and not fodder for discussion.

 

I have no doubt it is painful for a RC to go against RC teaching. And I previously noted that compassion and forgiveness are available to them. :grouphug:

 

And I agree their personal situation isn't fodder for discussion. I never said it was. In fact, i said it was not. However, this thread is not about mommaduck or her personal situation. SHE brought that up.

 

My comments have been wrt what are actual RC teachings.

 

Smug much?

 

I hope Asta knows me better than that.

I'm open to being found in error or I wouldn't have asked for citing.

[Ellesmere]

Oh, I have a feeling my former female pastor probably would have taken some offense to being called Father. :D

 

:lol:

And I know some male pastors that would seize the opportunity to cite the verse why they shouldn't be called Father!

But my last pastor would have been very sweet and just happy to have someone friendly talk with him. The Fathers (Catholic) I have met are the same.

[Parrothead]

 

 

I hope Asta knows me better than that.

I'm open to being found in error or I wouldn't have asked for citing.

I'm sorry. I should have put this guy there :D cause I was just teasing. I came back just to do that cause it was eating at me while I was cooking dinner.

[Parrothead]

I have no doubt it is painful for a RC to go against RC teaching. And I previously noted that compassion and forgiveness are available to them. :grouphug:

 

And I agree their personal situation isn't fodder for discussion. I never said it was. In fact, i said it was not. However, this thread is not about mommaduck or her personal situation. SHE brought that up.

 

My comments have been wrt what are actual RC teachings.

 

 

 

I didn't say anything about it being painful to go against church teaching. Please don't put words in my mouth, so to speak.

[KristinaBreece]

Um, I question this. There are things I go to Confession for, and I know that they're wrong before I do them. That's how sin works. I work on my faults; I am sorry for my faults. But it's not always things about which I have limited knowledge that come up in Confession. There is always, always forgiveness, if you're repentant.

 

Obviously, one shouldn't work the "loop holes," so to speak. Obviously, if one deliberately had a surgery now, knowing she wanted to join the RCC and it would at that point be forbidden, than there's a bit of an issue there. And to have Confession be effective, my understanding is that she would need to actually feel badly and sorry for that decision. But to say that you can't do it, or to imply that there wouldn't be forgiveness...I don't believe that's right.

 

Of course, I might be misunderstanding.

 

Couldn't stay away...

 

I am sorry that I'm in a position to need to consider such a surgery. I always thought I would have a houseful of children. I believe I would feel badly about making that choice for the rest of my life, regardless of whether or not I pursue a conversion. But not as bad as I would feel if I found myself pregnant and asking myself whether carrying that child was worth the great risk of taking a mother away from the children I already have, KWIM?

 

However, the reason I worded the question the way I did and followed it with this face :D is that I was asking in a sarcastic tone, in an attempt to lighten things up just a bit.

[ktgrok]

Oh, I have a feeling my former female pastor probably would have taken some offense to being called Father. :D

 

I've known of one female priests that has been called Father, but most have gone by Pastor :)

[ktgrok]

:lol:

And I know some male pastors that would seize the opportunity to cite the verse why they shouldn't be called Father!

But my last pastor would have been very sweet and just happy to have someone friendly talk with him. The Fathers (Catholic) I have met are the same.

 

but would they be wearing a clerical collar?

[zaichiki]

the Church does say to only have the children you can care for.

This is the reason I suggested the pp talk with a priest. There's so much to consider.

 

I won't give the intimate details of my discussion with my priests, but I will tell you that the priests and I discussed the current ages of our children, my husband's beliefs, religous and otherwise, and feelings about having more children, what I experienced during delivery, my fears, my husband's fears, what consequences certain actions would have on my marriage and on my children...

 

Really. If anyone has any questions about how the Catholic church would guide someone when it comes to the idea of limiting or not limiting future pregnancies (for whatever reason), it's really GOOD to read Humane Vitae and know what the Church teaches, but it's EVEN BETTER to go and talk to a priest about your SPECIFIC situation. And BEST? Talk to several priests (because there does exist the odd/rare priest who has issues).

Edited June 4, 2011 by zaichiki

[zaichiki]

There are actually very few times a Catholic priest is to be in street clothes. Church law insists that the priest wear “suitable clerical clothing, according to the norms issued by the Episcopal Conference and according to legitimate local customs.†(Canon 284)

 

Heh heh. I have priests in my family. I see them in street clothes more than in clerical clothing. Actually, my local parish priest is fairly often seen in street clothing. Is this common?

[nono]

but would they be wearing a clerical collar?

 

At our local Epsicopal Church she does, and she's called Mother.

[Murphy101]

I didn't say anything about it being painful to go against church teaching. Please don't put words in my mouth, so to speak.

 

Hmm. I wasn't making a personal statement about YOU. Or anyone else for that matter. It was general.

 

You mention that birth control can be a painful issue.

You mention that those choosing to go against RCC teaching are making a private choice.

 

I was simply agreeing.

 

I don't think I put words in your mouth, tho I will admit I was extrapolating based on the topic at hand.

[eternalknot]

:D I asked him. Sort of. I was staring at him, trying to decide what exactly I was going to say (ver batim; I don't think so quickly on my feet and I didn't want to look stupid as I bumbled over my words) when he looked up suddenly and caught my eye. Totally busted me. Embarassing. And yet, also a good segue LOL.

 

He smiled and said, "Yes, my child?" He sounded a bit like what I picture Santa Claus or an American grandfather to be like (me, having grown up with neither). Very comforting, welcoming. Definitely put me at ease right away.

 

I asked if he were, by chance, Catholic. He smiled again and said, "Yes, my child." Awkward pause, followed by me stuttering, "Oh. Okay then. Thanks!" and returning to my lunch.

 

He chuckled and went back to his newspaper. I sat there feeling like a bit of a b00b until we both got up to leave at the same time. We ended up walking together a ways towards his departure gate. On the way I told him about my kids, and how I was never sure how to tell a Catholic priest from one of another denomination (and how some lovely women from the internet promised me it would be okay to ask directly!) and he listened kindly. I'm glad you encouraged me to speak to him rather than to just speculate from afar. I'm sure next time I'll be less dorky and more smooth!

[eternalknot]

You could just drop the "Father" and say either "Good morning" or "Good morning, sir."

 

That's actually what I usually do. I just wondered if there was a more ... I guess personal (?) way to address someone by title. I'm Asian LOL we like titles!

 

Mostly I was curious because in my line of work we're supposed to address people by title and/or name. I use the generic Sir for many males, but when I know someone to be a doctor ... or professor ... or soldier ... or whatever ... I always try to respect the rank they've earned, so to speak, by addressing them by it. I thought if there was some way to clearly identify a religious officiant by his or her attire, I could add that to my data bank o' identifying information. I honed in on Catholics because of this thread, and I guess also because it's my kids' faith and I might be able to pass something of use onto them :). Other than killer good looks, wit, and superb intellect, that is!

 

I think I'll try out Reverend. I don't run into priests or pastors at work often, maybe one every 2-3 months. Maybe I'll add a button to my uniform along the lines of, "Ring your Flight Attendant Call Light if you're Catholic" so that THEY identify themselves to ME rather than vice versa :D eliminate the guessing game LOL. (not intending to be offensive - it reminds me of my son's Godparents' bumper sticker that reads: Honk if you're Catholic!)

[Ellesmere]

but would they be wearing a clerical collar?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset. You are right. They would not. I was thinking about the question about titles and if it was ok to use "father" for any church officiant or not. I should have quoted that so I didn't confuse. I was also thinking of visitors at the non-denominational churches I used to attend. Some visitors would use "Reverend or Father ____" when addressing the pastor, and they would usually understand. But, as I'd mentioned before, those pastors had some interesting (and wrong) misconceptions about Catholicism and some of them had to do with the title "Father", in particular. These are just a few reasons why I am looking at RC and EO as we unlearn some of the things we were taught before.

 

Sorry, I should have put more thought in before posting that.

 

FWIW, I would feel like a person wearing a collar to be very approachable.

[WIS0320]

I have no doubt it is painful for a RC to go against RC teaching. And I previously noted that compassion and forgiveness are available to them. :grouphug:

 

 

 

It is very difficult for me personally when I see these kinds of conversations because I think there are so many extenuating circumstances for so many people that are not appropriate to be discussed in regular social discourse and a lot can be assumed which then leads to gossip. I've heard it myself amongst women in my parish. My point here is that a little empathy goes a very long way for those of us in unusual situations including infertility, marital issues, health issues or a partner who is not also Catholic.

Edited June 4, 2011 by drexel

[Ellesmere]

I'll just say again this is a delicate topic. For some people it is a very painful topic. Those who know church teaching yet go against church teaching (I'm thinking RC here) do so, more often than not, after prayerful consideration. Their decision is between them and God and not fodder for discussion.

Thanks for responding. I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to discuss personal decisions or upset anyone. I really thought it was inappropriate for someone to come in harshly with an RC view that I can respect. But I do not respect harsh delivery. In my mind, gifts without love is nothing.

 

I won't post further on this thread. It seemed like the conversations were going well and I felt like I was getting help on the misconceptions we used to have. Now I feel like the safe place I had to discuss with Catholics (I just don't IRL) is gone.

 

I'm sorry I offended you.

Edited June 4, 2011 by Clairelise
added apology

[Murphy101]

Sigh.

 

My dh isn't Christian either folks and I'm not known for having easy pregnancies or deliveries.

 

Of course, a dh getting a vas regardless of his wife's opinion does not make it her sin. Tho it sure sounds hurtful of him.:grouphug:

 

*Martha's husband chiming in...

 

Getting a vas KNOWING your wife is against it isn't a religion issue.

It's a relationship issue.

A serious one.*

Edited June 4, 2011 by Martha
Change wording bc it is my general opinion, not a judgement of a particular person/situation

[WIS0320]

Sigh.

 

My dh isn't Christian either folks and I'm not known for having easy pregnancies or deliveries.

 

Of course, a dh getting a vas regardless of his wife's opinion does not make it her sin. Tho it sure sounds hurtful of him.:grouphug:

 

*Martha's husband chiming in...

 

Getting a vas KNOWING your wife is against it isn't a religion issue.

It's a relationship issue.

A serious one.*

 

I'll inject a big SIGH here too.

 

These types of situations are difficult enough without having unsolicited marital advice/comments posted on a message board. Granted I opened myself up to it b/c I posted personal information, which I have now deleted. There is no way to discuss fully on a forum like this the nuances of my marriage or the discussions we've had or how my husband chooses to act in our marriage.

 

Clearly, this is why it is important to keep these kinds of discussions private between the partners and the Catholic spouse's priest and not discuss it otherwise. Lesson learned.

[asta]

If you are bleeding to death, I'm thinking you aren't having sex at that time and conception is unlikely?

 

No where does the RCC say anyone shouldn't have more children than they can care for. The RCC says a couple MAY validly take these things into consideration wrt using NFP IF they feel led to do so.

 

There is NEVER any requirement to avoid children, via NFP or otherwise.

 

 

APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION

FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO

OF POPE

JOHN PAUL II

TO THE EPISCOPATE

TO THE CLERGY AND TO THE FAITHFUL

OF THE WHOLE CATHOLIC CHURCH

ON THE ROLE

OF THE CHRISTIAN FAMILY

IN THE MODERN WORLD

 

I will preface this with this quote:

 

The historical situation in which the family lives therefore appears as an interplay of light and darkness.

 

This shows that history is not simply a fixed progression towards what is better, but rather an event of freedom, and even a struggle between freedoms that are in mutual conflict, that is, according to the well-known expression of St. Augustine, a conflict between two loves: the love of God to the point of disregarding self, and the love of self to the point of disregarding God.

 

When they become parents, spouses receive from God the gift of a new responsibility. Their parental love is called to become for the children the visible sign of the very love of God, "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named."(36)

 

It must not be forgotten however that, even when procreation is not possible, conjugal life does not for this reason lose its value. Physical sterility in fact can be for spouses the occasion for other important services to the life of the human person, for example, adoption, various forms of educational work, and assistance to other families and to poor or handicapped children.

 

It happens. And it is not elucidated how it happens.

 

On the other hand, authentic ecclesial pedagogy displays its realism and wisdom only by making a tenacious and courageous effort to create and uphold all the human conditions-psychological, moral and spiritual-indispensable for understanding and living the moral value and norm.

 

There is no doubt that these conditions must include persistence and patience, humility and strength of mind, filial trust in God and in His grace, and frequent recourse to prayer and to the sacraments of the Eucharist and of Reconciliation.(93) Thus strengthened, Christian husbands and wives will be able to keep alive their awareness of the unique influence that the grace of the sacrament of marriage has on every aspect of married life, including therefore their sexuality: the gift of the Spirit, accepted and responded to by husband and wife, helps them to live their human sexuality in accordance with God's plan and as a sign of the unitive and fruitful love of Christ for His Church.

 

[...]

 

It must also be kept in mind that conjugal intimacy involves the wills of two persons, who are however called to harmonize their mentality and behavior: this requires much patience, understanding and time. Uniquely important in this field is unity of moral and pastoral judgment by priests, a unity that must be carefully sought and ensured, in order that the faithful may not have to suffer anxiety of conscience.

 

This is essentially what I pasted previously. People try their best. People are human. People sometimes fail. The Church recognizes this and points out that the Sacrament of Reconciliation is there for them.

 

The Charter of Family Rights

 

For this reason, the Church openly and strongly defends the rights of the family against the intolerable usurpations of society and the State. In particular, the Synod Fathers mentioned the following rights of the family:

 

*the right to exist and progress as a family, that is to say, the right of every human being, even if he or she is poor, to found a family and to have adequate means to support it;

*the right to exercise its responsibility regarding the transmission of life and to educate children; family life;

*the right to the intimacy of conjugal and family life;

*the right to the stability of the bond and of the institution of marriage;

*the right to believe in and profess one's faith and to propagate it;

*the right to bring up children in accordance with the family's own traditions and religious and cultural values, with the necessary instruments, means and institutions;

*the right, especially of the poor and the sick, to obtain physical, social, political and economic security;

*the right to housing suitable for living family life in a proper way;

*the right to expression and to representation, either directly or through associations, before the economic, social and cultural public authorities and lower authorities;

*the right to form associations with other families and institutions, in order to fulfill the family's role suitably and expeditiously;

*the right to protect minors by adequate institutions and legislation from harmful drugs, pornography, alcoholism, etc.;

*the right to wholesome recreation of a kind that also fosters family values;

*the right of the elderly to a worthy life and a worthy death;

*the right to emigrate as a family in search of a better life.

 

 

EUCHARISTIC CONCELEBRATION AT SHIVAJI PARK

 

HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II

For the Second Vatican Council, responsible parenthood means that parents should "take into account both their own welfare and that of their children, those already born and those which may be foreseen. For this accounting they will reckon with both the material and spiritual conditions of the times as well as of their state in life, maintaining regard finally for the good of the family community, of temporal society and of the Church herself" . The Council goes on to say that "when there is a question of harmonizing conjugal love with the responsible transmission of life, the moral aspect of any procedure does not depend solely on sincere intentions or on an evaluation of motives. It must be determined by objective standards. These, based on the nature of the human person and his acts, preserve the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love".

 

We see in the statements of Mahatma Gandhi certain similarities. While he asserted that "the act of generation should be controlled for the ordered growth of the world", he asked the question: "How is the suspension of procreation to be brought about?" And he answered: "Not by immoral and artificial checks... but by a life of discipline and self-control". And he added: "Moral results can only be produced by moral restraints". This, dear brothers and sisters, is the Church’s profound conviction.

 

Furthermore, it is the role of the family everywhere and of all society to proclaim that all human life is sacred from the moment of conception. It is the task of all mankind to reject whatever wounds, weakens or destroys human life – whatever offends the dignity of any human being.

 

INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE

AT THE PLENARY OF THE 59th GENERAL ASSEMBLY

OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON THE TENTH ANNIVERSARY

OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE

ON POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT

...the duty to safeguard the family demands that special attention be given to securing for husband and wife the liberty to decide responsibly, free from all social or legal coercion, the number of children they will have and the spacing of their births. It should be the intent of Governments and other agencies to help create the social conditions which will enable couples themselves to make appropriate decisions in the light of their responsibilities. We know that responsible parenthood is not a question of unlimited procreation or lack of awareness of what is involved in rearing children, but it also involves the right of parents to use their liberty wisely. Moreover, couples that choose to have large families deserve to be supported.

 

 

As a final note, in regards to what you bolded above, the Vatican doesn't say a lot of things. They never say the word penis. They never say IUD. It took until last year for them to say condom! What they do say (in beautiful prose, I think) is that God gave humans free will.

 

Now, the RCC may be the Moral Authority of what constitutes a good decision on many, many items (for Catholics - others would disagree, obviously), but they still acknowledge that, when it comes right down to it, people are human first, and the final authority is God, not the Church.

 

I think that sometimes, for some people, that message gets lost in the flowery language. Hence the Holy See *also* consistently implores people to seek out Clergy.

 

 

asta

 

 

(who has read more of the Vatican's website before 8 am than should be allowable...)

Edited June 4, 2011 by asta

[asta]

I'll inject a big SIGH here too.

 

These types of situations are difficult enough without having unsolicited marital advice/comments posted on a message board. Granted I opened myself up to it b/c I posted personal information, which I have now deleted. There is no way to discuss fully on a forum like this the nuances of my marriage or the discussions we've had or how my husband chooses to act in our marriage.

 

Clearly, this is why it is important to keep these kinds of discussions private between the partners and the Catholic spouse's priest and not discuss it otherwise. Lesson learned.

 

Vasectomy?

 

That subject has been discussed on this board so many times it is OLD hat.

 

 

bean dip

 

 

a

[mommaduck]

APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION

FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO

OF POPE

JOHN PAUL II

TO THE EPISCOPATE

TO THE CLERGY AND TO THE FAITHFUL

OF THE WHOLE CATHOLIC CHURCH

ON THE ROLE

OF THE CHRISTIAN FAMILY

IN THE MODERN WORLD

 

I will preface this with this quote:

 

 

 

 

 

It happens. And it is not elucidated how it happens.

 

 

 

This is essentially what I pasted previously. People try their best. People are human. People sometimes fail. The Church recognizes this and points out that the Sacrament of Reconciliation is there for them.

 

 

 

EUCHARISTIC CONCELEBRATION AT SHIVAJI PARK

 

HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II

 

 

INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE

AT THE PLENARY OF THE 59th GENERAL ASSEMBLY

OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON THE TENTH ANNIVERSARY

OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE

ON POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT

 

 

 

As a final note, in regards to what you bolded above, the Vatican doesn't say a lot of things. They never say the word penis. They never say IUD. It took until last year for them to say condom! What they do say (in beautiful prose, I think) is that God gave humans free will.

 

Now, the RCC may be the Moral Authority of what constitutes a good decision on many, many items (for Catholics - others would disagree, obviously), but they still acknowledge that, when it comes right down to it, people are human first, and the final authority is God, not the Church.

 

I think that sometimes, for some people, that message gets lost in the flowery language. Hence the Holy See *also* consistently implores people to seek out Clergy.

 

 

asta

 

 

(who has read more of the Vatican's website before 8 am than should be allowable...)

*passes Asta a Starbucks double espresso iced latte* :tongue_smilie:

[Soror]

This is the reason I suggested the pp talk with a priest. There's so much to consider.

 

I won't give the intimate details of my discussion with my priests, but I will tell you that the priests and I discussed the current ages of our children, my husband's beliefs, religous and otherwise, and feelings about having more children, what I experienced during delivery, my fears, my husband's fears, what consequences certain actions would have on my marriage and on my children...

 

Really. If anyone has any questions about how the Catholic church would guide someone when it comes to the idea of limiting or not limiting future pregnancies (for whatever reason), it's really GOOD to read Humane Vitae and know what the Church teaches, but it's EVEN BETTER to go and talk to a priest about your SPECIFIC situation. And BEST? Talk to several priests (because there does exist the odd/rare priest who has issues).

It is good to talk to a priest but unfortunately not all Priests will give guidance in line with church teaching. I had someone tell me that their priest told them it was ok to use hormonal birth control to prevent pregnancy. That isn't in line with church teaching at all. If the bcp were used for another reason and the side effect was preventing pregnancy then that would be another thing. Unfortunately in the RCC one can sometimes just 'shop' around to find someone to agree with them, irregardless of what the Church actually teaches.

[Parrothead]

 

I'm sorry I offended you.

No, you haven't offended me at all. Please come back and let's turn this thread to a different misconception.

 

 

(who has read more of the Vatican's website before 8 am than should be allowable...)

Thank you, asta for taking the time to look all that information up.

[~Kirsten~]

One can not commit a mortal sin with the assumption that one will be forgiven in the confessional.

 

So I can't decide while I'm lifting the candy bar at the store that I'll be okay tomorrow because I'm going to confession this evening.

 

It is that whole "Catholics can be bad during the week because they can just go to Confession on Saturdays and be okay for church on Sunday." It doesn't work that way

 

Okay, I can see what you're saying.

[~Kirsten~]

Couldn't stay away...

 

I am sorry that I'm in a position to need to consider such a surgery. I always thought I would have a houseful of children. I believe I would feel badly about making that choice for the rest of my life, regardless of whether or not I pursue a conversion. But not as bad as I would feel if I found myself pregnant and asking myself whether carrying that child was worth the great risk of taking a mother away from the children I already have, KWIM?

 

However, the reason I worded the question the way I did and followed it with this face :D is that I was asking in a sarcastic tone, in an attempt to lighten things up just a bit.

Oops! I missed that you were being a bit silly! I just didn't want you to feel that, given the choices you're facing, you just couldn't ever join the Church or find forgiveness, or something like that. I'm a convert, so I'm still a bit new to some of the ideas on Mortal Sins, which the other ladies have pointed out. I'm going to have to ponder them a bit.

 

Most importantly, I'm sorry you're facing a decision like this! :grouphug:

[justamouse]

 

asta

 

 

(who has read more of the Vatican's website before 8 am than should be allowable...)

 

Wow, that is awesome. Thank you. Latte for you.

[simka2]

Total thread hijack!!!! I was sitting next to some absolutely charming, well spoken, sharp and humorous women and their dh's in one of SWB's sessions today. I noticed one reading this little red book that looks very similar to an EO prayer book I have. I asked her what it was and she said, "Oh! it is this wonderful prayer book I am constantly using." I could see Mary on it and asked her if she was Catholic. She said, "Oh yes! Very Catholic." :D I told her we were in the process of converting to EO and she gave me a big hug.

 

I was touched. :001_smile: She was quite the example of Christian charity and sisterly love.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

He smiled and said, "Yes, my child?"

 

ARgh! He said that???? That's my personal pet peeve, if you ask me. I am NOT a child! Especially not his child. I find this so demeaning.

Thankfully I have never been addressed like that, but it might be enough for me to walk away from the Church! :banghead:

[asta]

ARgh! He said that???? That's my personal pet peeve, if you ask me. I am NOT a child! Especially not his child. I find this so demeaning.

Thankfully I have never been addressed like that, but it might be enough for me to walk away from the Church! :banghead:

 

"Child of God" is the reference, not child of the Priest.

 

In the RCC, the line of succession goes Jesus -> Apostles & Peter -> Church (Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest). So... it isn't viewed as the Priest saying "yes MY child", it is viewed as the Priest relaying a message from from God that you are his child and worthy of concern.

 

Does that make sense?

 

(but I can see how it could be annoying; I get a lot of 'girl/lass since I'm around many Irish)

 

 

asta

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

"Child of God" is the reference, not child of the Priest.

 

In the RCC, the line of succession goes Jesus -> Apostles & Peter -> Church (Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest). So... it isn't viewed as the Priest saying "yes MY child", it is viewed as the Priest relaying a message from from God that you are his child and worthy of concern.

 

I know all of that, but it still gets on my nerves. I have yet to hear a priest address a man that way. And honestly, for a chance meeting in an airport, the priest is probably not relaying an important message from God at that precise moment.