Back to the perennial topic: Is college for everyone?

[Jane in NC]

Yesterday's Talk of the Nation program on NPR aired a segment called "Are College Degrees a Waste of Time?" I did not listen to it, but I did read the article from the Chronicle of Higher Education which began the discussion.

 

One of the issues raised in the article is that of class size. While many large (often public) universities have huge freshman/sophomore classes, the small schools that do not are often the ones that come with huge price tags. I am a firm believer in the value of education for education's sake, but I do not want to see my son who is being drawn to history at a small LAC be strapped with tens of thousands of dollars of college loans.

 

The solutions that the author proposes at the end of the article (accountability testing) rankled me. It seems that the value of education is tied to corporate satisfaction with an employee, that he is suggesting colleges become job training grounds. I loved being a student who was able to read literature and philosophy and do mathematics in an Ivory Tower. This is not the path for everyone, but I would like my son to be able to pursue the quest of knowledge of knowledge's sake. I cannot see equating success with salary as the author seems to suggest.

 

Further, concerning the undergraduates who are critical of the education they are receiving: as one who has worked in the academic trenches, I can tell you that many students do not come to college to learn. They are there because they don't know what else to do with their lives. Maybe gap years should be encouraged?

 

Yes, some are unfortunately attracted to certain colleges more for their images than their outcomes. Some kids feel pressured by families to attend the "family school" even if they do not belong there. And college is not for everyone--on that we can all agree.

 

Comments on the article anyone?

Jane

[Veronica in VA]

Good question and one I have been thinking about for some time, as I have a 10th and 11th grader. I don't think college degrees are a waste of time, and I have one, though I didn't get it in the typical 4 year fashion. But both my husband, who went to West Point, and I graduated without any debt. With the high cost of colleges, and the amount of debt non-scholarship students wrack up, I'm not sure doing it in the traditional manner makes sense. If someone is highly motivated and knows what they want to do, it is worthwhile. Otherwise, community college, or working for a year or two may be better.

 

My 11th grade ds is very smart, but not very motivated. Sigh. He wants to go to community college for 2 years, and through that and work, become a master electrician. Eventually, he would like to have his own business, and does know he should take some business classes, or get a business degree, but that is not what he wants right now. DD, 10th grade, works very hard, but schoolwork is not easy for her. She wants to become a radiologist, and can do that through the local community college. She is also looking at possibly going to a 4 year college that offers that degree, but she is not sure she wants to do that.

 

While I love learning for learnings sake, and was a history major (and would love to get a masters in English or lit), I think at the high cost of college, getting a degree in a profession - engineer, etc makes sense. Otherwise a gap year, or community college might be the best option.

 

Veronica

[Gwen in VA]

Great question! We wrestled with this question extensively when my older two were in junior high and we were contemplating what approach we would take to high school.

 

We read and researched a LOT about the how's and why's of college. Perhaps the most influential article we read about college (by the fellow who ran "The Elijah COmpany") basically said that many of the students who go to college shouldn't. He gave a percentage indicating the percentage he thought should go to college -- and it was much much lower than the percentage that does!

 

His most intriguing comment to us, though, was this -- ONLY send your kids to college if either they are interested in a profession (doctor. lawyer, accountant, engineer, etc.) that requires a degree OR if they are intellectually curious people.

 

(We decided that our kids were intellectually curious and so should go, but his criteria for who should attend college has always stayed with me.....)

[Kathleen in VA]

I, too, have given this question much thought as I have two sons, 19 and 21, who do NOT have degrees and are debating their worth. They have discussed this with many of the men at our church who do/do not have degrees and these are our tentative conclusions on the subject:

 

1) A Bachelor's Degree is the new high school diploma. When employers are weeding through applications, they toss those that do not list a degree. Why bother with those who do not have degrees when there are so many applicants who do?

 

2) Obtaining a degree is a sign of character. If someone is willing to invest time, money and hard work for four or more years in a persistent effort to meet a long-term goal, they are less risky to hire.

 

3) If you go the college route you should choose a major that prepares you for a specific career - not a general studies, history, English sort of degree. Of course, that is only true if you do not plan to be a history professor or newspaper editor someday :-). The more specialized you are, the more likely you will be able to move into an entry-level position upon being graduated.

 

4.) Most employers care very little where your Bachelor's degree comes from. If you want to go the "Accelerated Distance Learning" path to a B.A./B.S. degree, it will not harm you academically. Choose your graduate school carefully - that is the one employers look at.

 

5) In my state there is an automatic transfer agreement between the community college system and most of the major universities in the state. That means that you can go to the local cc, get your associate's degree for about $4,000 and if you have maintained a C or better average you can be transferred to the 4-year college of your choice (in-state) without a hitch. (UVa, VaTech, William & Mary, VCU, George Mason, etc.). With that in mind, obtaining the degree does not seem so expensive and daunting an adventure.

 

This, obviously, isn't the final answer on the subject. Bill Gates didn't get a college degree. But if you are going to drop out of college, it helps for it to be Harvard. :-)

 

JMHO,

 

Kathleen

www.homeschoolblogger.com/lavendersblue

[Gwen in VA]

One last comment -- students definitely do get lots of attention at small liberial arts colleges. For financial reasons both of my older kids looked at the Honors Colleges at various state universities, and we were really impressed.

 

Honors Colleges seem to provide a lot of the benefits of LAC's at the state U price -- small classes, attention from professors, special counseling, etc.

 

Just another approach to college!

[Jan P.]

I use to think that everyone should at least try to go to college. I'm not so sure now. I have a dd that really learns outside the "normal" way of learning. She would be at a great disadvantage in college. We are still pursuing that option, but I'm trying to think of other things for her to do in case she doesn't get into one. My dd is pursuing ballet, and because she started late I've stepped up her training with private lessons (not done too much in my community). Next summer I want her to go to an intensive ballet institute. With this background at least she can try for ballet companies or teach at private dance studios. She does dream of going to a four year college where ballet is taught, so I'm not counting college out. However she has to be the one to be motivated to make major changes in studying and learning in order to meet her goals. I'm here to cheer her on with whatever decision she makes.

 

Blessings,

Jan

[RoughCollie]

I agree with you.

 

I do not think college is for everyone, but everyone needs to be prepared to work at a job at which they can support themselves.

 

I love the idea of a gap year. I wonder if it detrimentally effects a student's ability to get into college, to be considered for scholarships and the like. I don't know because I haven't looked into it yet. I think a gap year gives a person some more time to mature, to make money, and to take a break from studying. My DH, OTOH, is 100% against gap years.

 

As far as Bill Gates is concerned, it also helps to be a genius. He is not an ordinary fellow. :001_smile:

 

Bill Gates didn't get a college degree. But if you are going to drop out of college, it helps for it to be Harvard. :-)

 

JMHO,

 

Kathleen

www.homeschoolblogger.com/lavendersblue

[percytruffle]

I, too, have given this question much thought as I have two sons, 19 and 21, who do NOT have degrees and are debating their worth. They have discussed this with many of the men at our church who do/do not have degrees and these are our tentative conclusions on the subject:

 

1) A Bachelor's Degree is the new high school diploma. When employers are weeding through applications, they toss those that do not list a degree. Why bother with those who do not have degrees when there are so many applicants who do?

 

2) Obtaining a degree is a sign of character. If someone is willing to invest time, money and hard work for four or more years in a persistent effort to meet a long-term goal, they are less risky to hire.

 

3) If you go the college route you should choose a major that prepares you for a specific career - not a general studies, history, English sort of degree. Of course, that is only true if you do not plan to be a history professor or newspaper editor someday :-). The more specialized you are, the more likely you will be able to move into an entry-level position upon being graduated.

 

4.) Most employers care very little where your Bachelor's degree comes from. If you want to go the "Accelerated Distance Learning" path to a B.A./B.S. degree, it will not harm you academically. Choose your graduate school carefully - that is the one employers look at.

 

5) In my state there is an automatic transfer agreement between the community college system and most of the major universities in the state. That means that you can go to the local cc, get your associate's degree for about $4,000 and if you have maintained a C or better average you can be transferred to the 4-year college of your choice (in-state) without a hitch. (UVa, VaTech, William & Mary, VCU, George Mason, etc.). With that in mind, obtaining the degree does not seem so expensive and daunting an adventure.

 

This, obviously, isn't the final answer on the subject. Bill Gates didn't get a college degree. But if you are going to drop out of college, it helps for it to be Harvard. :-)

 

JMHO,

 

Kathleen

www.homeschoolblogger.com/lavendersblue

 

I have pondered this as well. Dd was always academically inclined, so it was a no-brainer that she would pursue a degree/degrees. Ds, my mildly dyslexic child was another story. He is a sensor (second letter of the Meyers/Briggs typing) which as a group do not typically gravitate toward upper level education. And he holds true to being much more concrete and hands on. But, I do believe, as you stated, that a four year degree is the new high school diploma. It is expected, unless you pursue some other unusual course of study like an apprenticeship under an artist or a carpenter, etc. In order to be on the same playing field as other young adults it is becoming more and more necessary to have that degree. That said, ds is ready to dive into cc classes next year. He is excited and confident. He may become burned out by the end of it, but he is a hard worker and a finisher. He will complete a degree even if it doesn't mesh with his natural proclivity. And yes, we will be suggesting he chooses a major with a career directly at the end. Not something open ended that will require advanced degrees.

 

It seems the colleges/universities have changed in their structure over the years to be more inclusive to the general population who in the past were not considered college bound. Courses have perhaps been dumbed down a bit at some schools and there are many remedial courses available for those students who find themselves unprepared for the task of college level work.

 

Do I think this is the way it should be? I don't know. Perhaps not. One thing I do know is that even though our educational system is broken in regards to graduating students who know less than they used to, the general lack of completing an education at the end of high school cannot be blamed solely on that. There is also a much broader spectrum of knowledge now than there ever used to be. It becomes more difficult to focus early without eliminating entire bodies of knowledge. Perhaps students could finish learning the essentials at the end of 8th grade in our parents' generation and move on to career education after that, but we know so much more now that that is not even possible any more.

 

My kids will go to college, but they will travel the cc route first to save money, get their feet wet, and figure out what they want to do. I hope they will both end up with at least a four year degree and perhaps more.

[Gwen in VA]

I haven't investigated gap years, but I think that usually the high school senior applies to college, gets accepted, and then defers the acceptance a year.

 

I know that i just saw an article on Yale's freshman class this year, and it has 25 seniors who are accepting to be part of the class of 2013 (not this year's but next year's freshman class).

 

Obviously, you can also just wait and apply the year after graduation, but I think that is a bit more unusual.

[Jane in NC]

 

It seems the colleges/universities have changed in their structure over the years to be more inclusive to the general population who in the past were not considered college bound.

 

Here in NC, the CCs have changed their structure as well. While many still offer certification programs and technical degrees, the focus seems to be on the AA or AS--college transfer degrees.

 

I think that all students need help negotiating through these educational mine fields. I have met high schoolers who are bound and determined to attend UNC-CH because of their families love of a basketball team when a land grant institution like NCSU may be better suited to their career path. Too many students are advised to study "business" in college, not having a clue why.

 

Over a decade ago, when I was teaching a technical math class at the CC, a middle aged fellow walked in and said that he had decided to go back to school for a two year electronics degree because he saw the need for cash machine repairmen in a growing community. Talk about smart--this guy (who had previously lacked any post-secondary education) anticipated a need before the banks began to build branches every couple of miles. I ran into him a few years ago and complimented him on his cleverness. He said that he tried telling the young guys in the class that this would be a growing field, but they thought he was nuts!

 

I think that this is another reason why our young people need to talk to adults--not just peers--about jobs. It would seem that churches and rotary clubs, etc., would be good places for teens to learn about opportunities of which even their parents may be unaware.

 

Jane

[percytruffle]

Over a decade ago, when I was teaching a technical math class at the CC, a middle aged fellow walked in and said that he had decided to go back to school for a two year electronics degree because he saw the need for cash machine repairmen in a growing community. Talk about smart--this guy (who had previously lacked any post-secondary education) anticipated a need before the banks began to build branches every couple of miles. I ran into him a few years ago and complimented him on his cleverness. He said that he tried telling the young guys in the class that this would be a growing field, but they thought he was nuts!

 

I think that this is another reason why our young people need to talk to adults--not just peers--about jobs. It would seem that churches and rotary clubs, etc., would be good places for teens to learn about opportunities of which even their parents may be unaware.

 

Jane

 

Great story! So much of education is wasted on the youth ;). Once firmly into adulthood the goals of education are less fluid and ethereal. That man knew what he wanted from his degree and went for it. Experience is the best teacher of all.

[Nan in Mass]

Lots of people aren't interested in delaying their lives another four years and studying hard at all sorts of things they can't see ever using. Some have family businesses waiting for them, ones they've been being educated to run since they were about five. Some need to start earning money so they can get out of a bad situation or help support their family. The other day, when I was figuring out the number of tick tubes I needed to cover our land, I had two older people at the garden center helping me convert acres to feet. They could do that off the top of their head because they have to do this all the time. But when I began talking about taking the square root because my property is about square, and then dividing by 30, they balked. They said, with great relief in their voices, that thankfully they hadn't had to do a square root for 30 years. Lots of people don't want to study academics; they just want to study the things they are interested in in a very independent, adult sort of way. Or learn what they need to by doing it. College is a rather weird way of learning things, when you think about it. And it is hard work.

 

I dearly want my children to have the four-year, live-in-the-dorms, traditional college experience that is part of my family's culture, but competition is so fierce for that sort of education that I wonder if my children will be able to get in. My parents did, without really trying. So did their parents. So did I. Then I "messed up"; I fell in love in high school and wound up at the state uni to be with my love and discovered that its idea of education was bigger and better than mine. Different, yes, but not necessarily bad. The little old lady in our Arthurian literature class who wasn't balancing that class against a full course load made us look awful, but had some interesting ideas. The Indian teacher who taught our computer math class took some adjusting to, but it turned out his teaching style was actually the best we'd ever been exposed to. Bigger and more open turned out to have some educational advantages. Maybe it won't be so awful if my children wind up with the more expanded sort of education one gets at our state uni. But I wonder why it is all so much harder now. Is it because there are more people? Or more people going to college?

 

Then there is the money! But the money was simply dreadful when we were going, too. We sort of take that part for granted. And I don't personally know anyone who was sorry they got their expensive education, even if they struggled with school loans for a long time afterwards. The debt is balanced against making life-long friends, meeting their spouse, and that weird insect class that fulfilled the extra science class requirement and is now making them look at the ants with different eyes. I know lots of fathers who are wondering if they really want to pay half the price of a starter home to educate their children, though, especially those with more than one child, or those whose children don't know what they want to do.

 

I think you have to be careful with the whole go-to-college thing. My oldest is 21. I look at him and his friends, none of whom have chosen to go to college, and really worry about them. My son is ok - he chose to go into plumbing (and is going to try college next year), and one friend is a musician and educating himself while landscaping and another in the family construction business, but the rest of his friends are just drifting. They all came out of a very academic public high school, one that has eliminated all shop and home-ec classes and put the money into more academics and fine art, and boasts that almost every student has been accepted to college when they leave. Well, they may have been accepted, but they don't necessarily want to go. And now, with no preparation whatsoever to do anything other than go to college, they are having trouble even holding down a job, to say nothing of advancing and making enough money to get anywhere. And who can blame them? The jobs they are doing are completely uninteresting to them and they see no way of doing anything else. Their parents are mostly just saying, "Well, that's what you get for not going to college (thinking small liberal arts college)." Well, there are lots of alternatives to LACs or big uni's around here, but nobody is helping these teens to find them and to find something they'd like to do. And they are often burned out on the whole academic scene and if it sounds like it involves studying, refusing to do it. I wish there weren't so much snobbishness at the high school, which is in a rich neighboring town. I wish they'd make more accommodations for the students who don't have a collection of thousand dollar handbags and a daddy who'll pay their way into a college, or don't have the academic brains or the drive to do all AP classes.

 

Where does all this partying at college come from? Is it a way to pass the time while one waits another four years of one's life away? Or what? My children tend to look at that with scorn. Will they find friends? It doesn't seem any different from when I was in school, and I found friends fine, but I was sort of used to it from public school.

 

I may not need to worry about any of this, because we are finding that having taught our children to teach themselves, they aren't particularly interested in being taught at college now. Which I suppose is natural. It is hard to hold up both the ideal of self-education AND the wonderfulness of being educated by prof's at college. They all are going for some sort of profession, not for a general education. Those are harder to self-educate and make a more concrete reason for going.

 

I've been thinking about this a lot. As I guess you can tell LOL. This is way too long. Sorry. But so much about the whole college thing is worrying me, and I had my children younger that anyone in the family or amongst my friends by a good bit, and I don't want to burden my parents with it all, so it gets spilled out here. Sorry.

 

-Nan

[Jane in NC]

Nan,

 

You are one of the reasons I love hanging around these boards! Your thoughtful responses are just wonderful.

 

Jane

[Gwen in VA]

Nan,

 

I really appreciate your response!

 

Yes, there are more kids graduating,which is making competition for those coveted "desirable college" spots brutal. This year's graduating high school senior class is the biggest ever. The number of graduating seniors will start to shrink starting either next year or the year after.

 

College is just more expensive nowadays. The tuition has been rising at about twice the rate of inflation since the early 80's.....and over 25 years that's a lot of increase!

 

My father worked his way through college. His parents didn't contribute in any way. I could not have gone without serious parental help, but still during the summers I earned the equivalent of about 1/5 of my tuition (not including room and board) -- and I went to an expensive school! In one summer my kids couldn't earn 1/5 of their tuition no matter WHAT they did!

 

All of the Virginia state schools that have announced their tuition rates for next year are increasing tuition about 10%, and UVA has said that it will be increasing at about 10% for the next several years! GULP!

[Susan in IL]

for the most part, require a degree - a 4 year degree. They don't care what your major is, or what college it is from, they want you to have that piece of paper. It is like a high school diploma used to be. At these same employers, they will not promote you above a certain level unless you have it (this is for the older employees that started years ago), period. Unfair - totally. I saw many who would be great in upper management positions but they did not have the degree so they were stuck. Many did go back and get a degree and as soon as they got it, they were promoted.

[RoughCollie]

Thanks for the gap year info, Gwen.

 

RC

[mcconnellboys]

I'm getting ready to read it now, Jane, but maybe a compromise would be to add certain training colleges to universities (some already do this for management training, hotel training, international trade, etc.) for those who want training tied to some specific type of job

skill(s). But they could still allow for liberal arts education for those who wanted that, instead.

 

Every institution in the country wouldn't need to be switched over to specific job training. Even if they train us all to do a specific job, LOL, corporations won't want to hire us and pay us when they can get equally trained folks from some up and coming country to work for a fraction of the cost.... So what's the point of that, in the long run?

 

We want a good, small, liberal arts college for our history-interested son, too, but rue the idea of accruing huge debt as much as you do.....

 

You know, I read somewhere in the past year that the future jobs that will be most in demand in this country through about 2030 are skilled trades, not professional jobs. I guess everybody needs plumbers, electricians, craftsmen, etc......

[mcconnellboys]

This reminds me of a poll that was recently posted. Maybe it was here. It changed the ranking of the top 100 universities by polling students on their satisfaction with their colleges, instead - a sort of exit poll. It was very interesting and made some huge differences for some of the schools..... I'll look for it (did you see it?)......

[8filltheheart]

I have to disagree with some of you wonderful ladies. ;)

 

Many employers do look at the college. Perhaps b/c my dh and our college student are both in engineering fields that we see this as prevalent? Recruiters, sources for coop jobs, etc.....different employers are going to dominate different schools. Dh knows that new hires are evaluated by their educational background and the university is a large part of that.

 

As far as the original question......I am totally confused as I look at my brood. OUr oldest is so goal driven. He knows what he wants and how he is going to get there. Period! He is only 18 and just a few hrs shy of a jr......I am blown away by his determination.

 

I look at my next 2 and I know that they are clueless about what they want to do. It leaves me feeling clueless in how to guide them.

 

I don't think that college is necessary for success. I do believe that a commitment to some sort of goal is.

[Nan in Mass]

It's a lovely sunny morning, with water sparkles on the ceiling. Here is a pretend cup of tea and we can go drink it in my garden, where the wild cherry is blooming.

-Nan

[Veronica in VA]

I may not need to worry about any of this, because we are finding that having taught our children to teach themselves, they aren't particularly interested in being taught at college now. Which I suppose is natural. It is hard to hold up both the ideal of self-education AND the wonderfulness of being educated by prof's at college. They all are going for some sort of profession, not for a general education. Those are harder to self-educate and make a more concrete reason for going.

 

 

:iagree: My dd said something like that yesterday. She said she can learn whatever she wants to learn. She just wants to go to CC for a career (she wants to go into radiology), then she can continue to learn on her own.

 

Veronica

[RoughCollie]

I have two kids who don't know what they want to do with their lives. They are 14 years old, and I don't expect to them to know right now. My DD knows she wants a career that involves math and science, and one of my DS wants to be a surgeon.

 

When I was 18, I didn't have a clue either. All I wanted to be was a wife and mother. I wanted to major in English at school, which would have qualified me to become a secretary. I am of the pick something even if it turns out to be wrong school of thought. If the choice turns out to be wrong, it will lead them to the right choice for them. IMO, that will happen a lot sooner with the pick something method than with the sit around and wonder method that I originally used.

 

I plan to carve out time in the kids' schedules to learn about career choices, which will include visiting people at work in those careers to both observe and talk to them. I also intend to steer the kids away from overcrowded fields and from careers that do not pay enough for them to be able to support themselves as adults.

 

My kids lean more toward the intellectual, and I don't see any of them wanting to learn a skilled trade, although if any of them did I would support their choice.

 

 

 

 

I look at my next 2 and I know that they are clueless about what they want to do. It leaves me feeling clueless in how to guide them.

 

I don't think that college is necessary for success. I do believe that a commitment to some sort of goal is.

[Robin in Tx]

If you go the college route you should choose a major that prepares you for a specific career - not a general studies, history, English sort of degree. Of course, that is only true if you do not plan to be a history professor or newspaper editor someday :-). The more specialized you are, the more likely you will be able to move into an entry-level position upon being graduated.

 

I heard Rob Shearer talk about this and he said the exact opposite when it comes to certain degrees. He said that as a past human resources manager, he recommends a liberal arts degree over a business degree. This might not be true if you're planning on going onto further studies in a highly specialized career such as engineering or medicine. But for the student who wants to have some flexibility in their career, his point was that a liberal arts degree prepares you better for life long growth and continued learning. He felt this was more valuable in the common business world, and that it was a better option for someone who was going for a masters in a business area.

 

I've heard the same thing about graduate school being much more important that undergrad. Of course, that applies only if you're going to grad school :). If not, then undergrad matters more. When we recruited for health care management trainees, we went to all the top universities across the nation who offered graduate degrees in HCM... where they went for undergrad never mattered. It was what they did at grad school that mattered.

 

I know people who got jobs because they had a college degree... that was what caused them to stand out from other applicants... and often the degree wasn't in the same field. I am concerned about a college degree for my daughter. Women, unfortunately, hit glass ceilings over things like this... if my dd ever has to support herself or help support her family or if she simply wants a career, I want to give her every advantage. I don't think college is for everyone or absolutely necessary for success, but a college degree under your hat NEVER hurts. Being without one can. Bill Gates might not have a college degree, but I'll bet his employees do :).

 

But there sure are some fine ways to live your life without that degree which are meaningful and productive and quite comfortable. So no, I don't think it's an absolute must have. It's Plan "A" in our house, though... default mode.

[Robin in Tx]

Nan,

 

You are one of the reasons I love hanging around these boards! Your thoughtful responses are just wonderful.

 

Jane

 

:iagree:

 

Robin

[Robin in Tx]

It is hard to hold up both the ideal of self-education AND the wonderfulness of being educated by prof's at college.

 

This is a very interesting comment, worthy of much thought.

 

Thank you for your post, Nan.