Personal issues with using Sonlight - help me get over them?

[momee]

I have switched from TOG to SL and have read and awful lot of comments from members here regarding how it's not enough for high school. Not enough writing instruction and not enough literary analysis.

 

This is very unsettling. It feels like I'm choosing something not as good as WTM or TOG and it's making me doubt our path.

Anyone been there with some advice on being more comfortable with it all?

 

Mainly I hear the reading selections aren't as "hard" as should be and a spine is important for a history course for high school.

What about my son's enjoyment factor? He's 17, unmotivated and TOG killed! his love for learning using "the Great Books". (Just being honest, not dissing TOG)

 

My husband felt like all I ever did was gather books and prepare to teach using TOG so it's not an option for us anymore, per his request. That's quite a statement seeing as he is usually very open to my doing whatever I want regarding curricula. I need to say also my students really ENJOY reading with Sonlight.

TIA for discussing the issue with me...

[Faithr]

Well, as someone who is rather unschoolish I really don't understand the 'not enough writing' or 'literary analysis' bit. Not enough writing for whom? Each student is different. My oldest needed very little writing instruction and she learned literary analysis by watching a video about it (Teaching the Classics) and she took off like a shot on her own. Same with my second child. Now I'll admit my current student is really weak in writing, so he does need more input and more practice.

 

Take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt. They aren't you! They don't know your children's strengths, weaknesses, attitudes, experience, family situation, etc. No high school experience is perfect. Some kids might thrive with TOG and others shrivel up and die from it (mine would!). Sonlight is a different approach, that's all. They've got harder books mixed in with easier books. I like that approach. You aren't bludgeoning them to death especially when they might not be open to it yet.

 

So anyway, follow your husband's lead and try Sonlight. I bet you have a great time with it!

[Julie in MN]

she learned literary analysis by watching a video about it (Teaching the Classics)

 

Faith, can I sidetrack this thread for just one second? I spent way too much time hemming and hawing at the TTC booth at convention and went away not getting anything.

 

Did you watch the whole $89 seminar together with your dd? How long did that take? It sounds like it was worth it to you...? I'm encouraged to hear that just watching the video was plenty of "teaching" for your dd. Even though we're not unschoolers, I am resistant to analyzing every bit of every book, or learning and practicing a "method," and we already do discuss worldview-type topics in books he reads (lots is built into his curriculum). But I was thinking of taking my "just the facts" boy quickly through something on the topic of traditional lit analysis. He is really resistant to seeing that authors have a method to their madness :) so a video might get further than mom :tongue_smilie:

 

Julie

[Calm37]

I have switched from TOG to SL and have read and awful lot of comments from members here regarding how it's not enough for high school. Not enough writing instruction and not enough literary analysis.

 

This is very unsettling. It feels like I'm choosing something not as good as WTM or TOG and it's making me doubt our path.

Anyone been there with some advice on being more comfortable with it all?

 

Mainly I hear the reading selections aren't as "hard" as should be and a spine is important for a history course for high school.

What about my son's enjoyment factor? He's 17, unmotivated and TOG killed! his love for learning using "the Great Books". (Just being honest, not dissing TOG)

 

My husband felt like all I ever did was gather books and prepare to teach using TOG so it's not an option for us anymore, per his request. That's quite a statement seeing as he is usually very open to my doing whatever I want regarding curricula. I need to say also my students really ENJOY reading with Sonlight.

TIA for discussing the issue with me...

 

If your students are enjoying Sonlight, then you are blessed. Your students must be motivated to learn long after high school. Just smile when others tell you it is "not enough" and do a happy dance.

 

Blessings,

[MamaSheep]

I would say that every child is different. Anything that works for your child is better than anything that doesn't. "Enough" is a judgment call. One person's "enough" might be another person's "too much" and frustrate that child to the point of not even trying. Another person's "enough" might be too little for someone else and leave them bored and frustrated. Even for classroom teachers one challenge is to find the right balance. If SL is a better balance for your child, and your family, then do it. And don't feel like you need to apologize.

 

One worry may be whether the child will be ready for college. There are a lot of pathways through college for a motivated learner, including courses to get the student up to speed in any areas where he or she might be "lacking". From my experience working in a college registrar's office I would posit that an unmotivated student isn't going to do well or gain much from being at college regardless of how "hard" or "challenging" his high school work might have been.

 

Something else to consider is that some skills are more important for some college and career plans than others. I would say that writing reasonably well will be useful in any occupation or field of study. Literary analysis may have a more limited scope of usefulness. Think about what your son might want to "be" when he grows up, and consider how much of various aspects of learning will really be beneficial to him. You don't need to push him on things that won't be of much use to him just because someone else is pushing their child in those areas. Sometimes a basic level of general knowledge is "enough".

[momee]

He's not going to be a scientist or probably not even a literary scholar. Math is not his strong suit.

He has the know how but right now his motivation is not in the academic realm. I'm told it will come with age.

 

I know he'll be fine whatever he chooses to do, it's so hard to know how to prepare them best.

His desire is to enter the Navy with an enjoyable and successful senior year under his belt. I really want him to know he CAN learn, he can ENJOY learning and he is an awesome young man with his life ahead of him.

Thanks for the dialogue.

[Faithr]

Hi Julie,

 

We watched the first half probably. And even though I've watched Teaching with the Classics with 4 out of 5 of my kids, I have to sheepishly admit, we've never made it through the whole thing! But I guess I got my money's worth, anyway! LOL!

 

My oldest dd was a special case in a way. All my kids have LDs (tracking, etc) and don't read until about 9 years of age (she was a little earlier at 8.5). But even once she was reading, it was laborious for her. She read very, very slowly. In her 9th grade year she was tested at 4th grade reading speed. So she HATED reading because the simple physical act of reading was so hard for her that she had really poor comprehension She only read books on her that had originally been read alouds and she reread these over and over again and never really ventured to other books much (they were, if you are curious, American Girl books, Little House and Harry Potter). So, I bought the TTC mostly because I was feeling a little desperate. The great thing about TTC was that it has that nice map/graphic image that explains about plot and there was just something about the way Mr. Andrews explained everything that made a light bulb go off in her head. In fact, when she'd read a book after that, for the first few times, she'd actually make up a map like Andrews used to help her understand the story better. It just opened up a whole new way of understanding what she was reading. She'd been so frustrated before and now she had this concrete visual image that helped her hook everything together.

 

I think the best way to handle boys like yours (I think I have a similar boy!) is to argue a really radical, ridiculous take on a book (you, of course, have to know the book yourself) and then get them really worked up over arguing it with you! You'll see them diving into the book to disprove your points!

[mom22722]

We loved SL and I listened to others this past year and did TOG with my whole family. I think it is a great program but we hated it. I am switching back to SL and that includes my highschooler. I have learned way more history than all my years in high school and college. We enjoyed the reading and I don't care what others are saying we liked it. My kids are lousy writers but that is more my fault than SL's because I never made them do any writing. I will be working on that but TOG didn't really give me any great instruction on writing either IMO. Do what works for your family. Obviously someone is having success with SL or they wouldn't continue selling their highschool cores. I think those of us who use Sonlight through Highschool are quiet because those who think it is too easy are too vocal.

[Murphy101]

I felt most of the SL high school was more middle school level reading and writing mixed in with some high school level.

Which isn't necessarily bad.

If TOG or whatever other option wouldn't work, then you are absolutely better off with a program that will work for you.

 

Rule #1

Once you make your purchases for the year, don't look back until time to buy for the next year unless it absoultuely isn't working at all.;)

[Julie in MN]

So, I bought the TTC mostly because I was feeling a little desperate. The great thing about TTC was that it has that nice map/graphic image that explains about plot and there was just something about the way Mr. Andrews explained everything that made a light bulb go off in her head. In fact, when she'd read a book after that, for the first few times, she'd actually make up a map like Andrews used to help her understand the story better. It just opened up a whole new way of understanding what she was reading. She'd been so frustrated before and now she had this concrete visual image that helped her hook everything together.

 

I think the best way to handle boys like yours (I think I have a similar boy!) is to argue a really radical, ridiculous take on a book (you, of course, have to know the book yourself) and then get them really worked up over arguing it with you! You'll see them diving into the book to disprove your points!

 

So the desperate thing rings a bell with me, although maybe not for the same reasons :tongue_smilie: I like the results you saw!

 

I also like your boy idea. Hmmm... I'll have to think on that. Thanks :)

[momee]

Martha, I'm sorry to sound snarky but this isn't very helpful :lol:

"I felt most of the SL high school was more middle school level reading and writing mixed in with some high school level.

Which isn't necessarily bad."

[G5052]

I think a lot of Sonlight at that level is how you use it. I've talked at length with my local friends who have used it all of the way through, and the common thread is that you have to set high expectations for the writing portion of it, perhaps using additional resources like Teaching the Classics, The Elegant Essay, etc. etc. if you need to in order to explain and set the expectations. They seemed to think that it wasn't quite explicit enough at the higher levels for some families, particularly if the student and/or parent wasn't strong in writing and literature. I realize that the higher levels are written to the student, but of course you need to be involved. I do know families who used it all of the way through without anything else and the students have done great in college, even graduating with liberal arts degrees into employment, but I know others who did indeed feel that their student was lacking in early college and they all said that the writing was a problem for them.

 

We're currently in paid classes, but I've still found that I have to be involved when it comes to the literature and writing, so I'm more forgiving of Sonlight than I once was, and will return to Sonlight or do MFW if we need to at some point. TOG wouldn't be in the running unless I was in a high school co-op.

Edited May 2, 2011 by GVA

[at the beach]

I have switched from TOG to SL and have read and awful lot of comments from members here regarding how it's not enough for high school. Not enough writing instruction and not enough literary analysis.

 

This is very unsettling. It feels like I'm choosing something not as good as WTM or TOG and it's making me doubt our path.

Anyone been there with some advice on being more comfortable with it all?

 

Mainly I hear the reading selections aren't as "hard" as should be and a spine is important for a history course for high school.

What about my son's enjoyment factor? He's 17, unmotivated and TOG killed! his love for learning using "the Great Books". (Just being honest, not dissing TOG)

 

My husband felt like all I ever did was gather books and prepare to teach using TOG so it's not an option for us anymore, per his request. That's quite a statement seeing as he is usually very open to my doing whatever I want regarding curricula. I need to say also my students really ENJOY reading with Sonlight.

TIA for discussing the issue with me...

 

I've been struggling (ETA: Really, just spending far too much time on it) trying to come up with a middle ages plan for my daughter for 9th grade next year. I'm sure it hasn't been necessary for me to get so worked up over it. I spend far less time worrying about math and science than I do history and lit. Why is that?:001_huh: ETA: Sometimes buying something ready to go seems appealing.

 

Haven't used upper SL cores, only several lower level ones to date, so I don't even know if I should be offering my opinion, but I am in the process of choosing something for my kids for next year, one of whom will be in 9th. So, I am right there with you, wondering what is appropriate versus not enough versus too much.

 

I've looked at SL's catalogs closely (not so much this year's because it had no book descriptions!). Anyway, Sonlight includes a huge amount of reading. If ALL those books were intense reads, who would want to do that? Who doesn't want something light and breezy thrown in once in a while? No crime in scheduling some fluff here and there IMO. As for writing, no matter what program is used for history/lit, I'd make sure to focus some on ACT/SAT essay prep--I don't know if the SL IGs address this or not. I thought so. I also thought that SL assigns a research paper in their cores every year after a certain grade. I believe they also require current event written reports--and at the high school, I'm sure this could include more than a simple retelling. I'd also have any child, whatever program (or lack thereof) they are using for history/lit, read Elements of Style. Probably twice.:tongue_smilie:

 

In any case, it looks like there are plenty of classics in their book lists for high school from Core 200 on up. Core 100 is light on classics but there are a few. If it's worrisome, who says a parent can't give a child a few other American Lit books to read over the summer? And if there are too many books to cover, why not just drop a few here and there to spend more time on others if that's what works best?

 

At 14, in my spare time, I was reading Flowers in the Attic, Amityville Horror, and The Thorn Birds. And loved every minute of it. And I remember those books very clearly. I have no idea what the heck I read for school. It's all a big blur. I do recall a few short stories like Ethan Frome and The Lottery. I recall The Crucible, too. Oh, and I also recall being bored to tears by Romeo and Juliet in 9th grade.:001_huh: But books I read in my free time? I can recall so many. The Handmaid's Tale. Death on the Nile--I still remember Linnett (sp?). I could go on and on. But it was definitely not assigned reading that had me hooked on books. Somehow I made it through college and professional school with flying colors. Not saying my education is anything to aspire to, though.

 

But I am saying that if your kids enjoy reading with SL and will actually remember the books, there's something to be said for that. I, personally, think SL is more than enough for high school. Just because kids can handle something that is consistently going to push them harder, that doesn't mean that's necessarily the best course of action. Perhaps sometimes less (even with all those SL books) is more.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Violet

[Murphy101]

Martha, I'm sorry to sound snarky but this isn't very helpful :lol:

 

That is why I suggest you focus on the helpful part:

 

"Rule #1

Once you make your purchases for the year, don't look back until time to buy for the next year unless it absoultuely isn't working at all.;)"

 

 

Really, I don't think it is necessarily bad.

 

I've seen the other end of the spectrum where ALL the curriculum is VERY HEAVY and HARD and ADVANCED and whatever word leaps out to make people feel good about their choice to buy whatever. And it isn't very pretty there either. I don't know that I want every subject every year to be like that for any of my kids, even the high schoolers. Sounds like a recipe for burn out to me?

 

Maybe a year of SL would be perfect for you because a bigger mix of some "easier" reading and writing combined with a heavier focus on math and science would make for a more balanced year over all? Or maybe last year was heck and your student needs to recover some burnt brain cells this year? Or maybe You, the TEACHER, needs a bit less stress to get the your job done and that is WAY better than a teacher who just doesn't for whatever reason. Better to buy what you will actually USE, then what you will only have the time or energy to half use and feel guilty about.

 

But what do I know. Very possibly absolutely nothing.:tongue_smilie:

Maybe I am the only home schooling parent out there with these opinions and experiences. Or maybe I'm the only one who actually mentions it. You know. Out loud. In front of other home schoolers.

 

gonna hit submit before I chicken out...

[Faithr]

Martha, you make me smile!

 

I think that a mix of 'easier' and 'heavier' reading is a plus! My current high schooler is taking a really heavy duty biology class and Latin class. And he is not super academic so I planned my own literature/history tailored to him. The biggies we read were Augustine's Confessions and Dante's Inferno and we are going to do Hamlet (probably not until June), but the other books were lighter because I knew that he'd burn out or just plain wouldn't get everything read if we were really high and might about every thing he read. So it just sounds to me like SL is a good fit for the OP's situation.

[Mom22ns]

If your students are enjoying Sonlight, then you are blessed. Your students must be motivated to learn long after high school. Just smile when others tell you it is "not enough" and do a happy dance.

 

Blessings,

 

:iagree:

 

Do what fits your kids. I've never seen anyone say they used SL through high school and regretted it, nor have I heard anyone say they used SL through high school and their kids turned out to be unprepared for college. Lots of people stop using SL in high school or try it and don't like it, but if your ds is doing well with it, I would just enjoy.

[calandalsmom]

Listen to Martha.

:001_smile:

 

Adding: the stuff you buy and USE is 100x better than the stuff that sits on the shelf bc no one wants it. So if SL is what you USE, use it!

[Ann@thebeach]

I haven't used SL in high school but have been researching it a lot lately-and I mean A LOT. I think I've read almost every thread here and at the SL board. LOL

 

Basically, what I learned is that every program will have good/bad reviews and pros/cons. Every program will work great for people and not so great for people, it all depends on the child/family. So I need to look at MY CHILD and decide if the program will meet his needs/learning style and not worry about what others say because they are commenting on the program and THEIR CHILD.

 

But most importantly, SL has A LOT of successful high school graduates so it must be doing something right for those kids ;)

[4wildberrys]

If your students are enjoying Sonlight, then you are blessed. Your students must be motivated to learn long after high school. Just smile when others tell you it is "not enough" and do a happy dance.

 

Blessings,

:iagree::iagree:

 

And FWIW---'I' have done my fair share of complaining about SL-----but my kids sure aren't. They love it :D

[calandalsmom]

:iagree::iagree:

 

And FWIW---'I' have done my fair share of complaining about SL-----but my kids sure aren't. They love it :D

 

I have done my fair share and my kids hate it too. We had to dump it.

 

Going to WP for next year.

[4wildberrys]

I have done my fair share and my kids hate it too. We had to dump it.

 

Going to WP for next year.

 

And I left WP this year because I found it harder to deal with than SL :lol: But that's what I love about homeschooling---curriculum isn't One Size Fits All and we can use what works best for us.

[1Togo]

I know several moms in our area who have always used Sonlight through high school, and they wouldn't consider changing. Nothing entices these ladies away from Sonlight. After high school, their children have run the gamut from full-rides at state universities to hefty money for a top-ten, private university in a nearby city to starting their own businesses.

Edited May 2, 2011 by 1Togo

[teachermom2834]

I don't use Sonlight but the most rigorous homeschoolers in our area do. We are talking Ivy League, National Merit Finalists, big scholarship winners.

[Hen]

I'm using SL for highschool, and I'm very pleased so far.

 

We are using Core 100 - American History for 10th grade. As far as the writing portions, we have her in an outside class we are paying for- that is very rigorous in writing. I know the Hakim books are a low reading level, but I looked through them and decided they were hands-down more interesting then the boring textbooks we never finished when I was in highschool. I am desiring that she come away from her course with a good understanding of American History- and that she actually remembers much of it. I think with the mix of Hakim books and historical fiction- that she will remember much of it. I have crossed out some of the lit reading, she is really busy with the outside Lit and Composition class she is in. I did have it in the back of my mind to maybe add in a few more challenging books from the Veritas catalog or from another classical list- but she is really busy and I'm happy with what she is learning as written.

 

good luck with your decision! :D

[ABQmom]

Momee,

 

I read lots of your posts last year when I was trying to decide whether or not to give TOG a try. I read about how excited you were with SL and what a breath of fresh air it was for you--you had time to make bread I think you said. :001_smile:

 

Anyway, I think you shouldn't doubt the direction you have been led. I hear old timers and those finished with homeschooling say all the time that they wished they would not have worried so much about academics. Now, I think we do need to think about academics and make sure we are doing what we need to do with our kids, but when we worry too much, I think that is unnecessary. We need to trust the decisions we have agonized over and finally made. (I'm speaking of myself here as well because I go through what you are going through all the time. :( ) From what I hear you saying now, and from what I heard you say in the past, I think your children are going to do fine!

 

Incidentally, I borrowed TOG this year to try. Thank goodness because we hated it. A good program, but way too time consuming for us and especially me. I'm going with Windows to the World and Elegant Essay this year to help us get a little literary analysis and writing instruction in. I then plan on using books from SL to fill in with. Lori D helped me make this decision--bless that dear lady!

 

Have you listened to SWB's audio on Literary Analysis? If you haven't, you might give it a try. I felt relieved after listening to it. She says repeatedly--"Don't kill your child's love for reading." To me, she was saying that to preserve a child's love for reading is way more important than analyzing books and writing about them. She's the overlord for pete's sake. She must know what she is talking about. ;)

[Running the race]

I love SL and plan to continue using it in high school. My 14yo is using Core 7 for 9th grade this year. He is learning, remembering, and, most important of all, enjoying learning history. He is also taking an online English class, so I don't use the SL LA.

[calandalsmom]

And I left WP this year because I found it harder to deal with than SL :lol: But that's what I love about homeschooling---curriculum isn't One Size Fits All and we can use what works best for us.

 

I suspect I will not get much use out of the WP schedule/ guidebook (which begs the question is it worth 70$) bc I find WP to be choppier and less well laid out than SL. So next year I will probably jump again.;) I want to do the time period and approach covered by QRR, so I am stuck. Sl doesnt offer that,

 

Also core 6 was so dull that we just are turned off.

[Jonibee]

I have also done my fair share of complaining to Sonlight, but we've used it for 15+ years and still use it, including the high school level.

 

These are things I like:

 

~ The books. No, we LOVE the books. I love that the difficult books are interspersed with light fare. I do not understand those who complain about the book levels, when most curriculums (Abeka, BJU, etc) have only snippets of books or other programs (Hewitt, LLATL) only have several books per year. My kids have read bunches of books! They have not all "liked to read" as a hobby. For a couple of my kids, the homeschool booklist is likely to be all the reading they will do in their life other than nonfiction as an adult.

 

~ The history spines or lack of spines. No one I ever knew enjoyed a history textbook, and very few remember anything after the tests are passed. We add "meat" to the spines by studying to pass the history CLEP at the end of the year. My kids have all said history is their favorite suject.

 

~ The writing assignments. Here is the key to the writing assignments -- this is what most complainers do not do. The key is ---- here it is ---- have your kids actually DO the assignment. My kids write twice a week starting in 8th grade. One - the Sonlight assignment. Second, a 25-minute "in-class" essay. Here is the question or prompt, start the clock, okay you're done.

 

Another comment on the writing -- I've learned not to stress over it. Repeated practice helps more than anything. Lots of writing is better than tons of instruction over a few pieces of writing. So I require that my kids write a lot. If the paper assigned is too detailed or difficult to understand, then I just say "write a paper on this topic" requiring at least a page double spaced.

 

Somewhere in the high school years, we cover the SAT essay and college essays, note taking, etc. using IEW Essay Intensive and Advanced Communication set. This combination has worked for my kids. Volume in the younger years (from say, grade 6+) all the way through, along with these CD sets has been enough.

 

My complaints have been:

~ The questions written to the student vs. the answers in the parent key. These have been "logistical" issues dealing with difficulty of flipping here and there and whatnot, but I think they have been planning a great improvement in this area for the new guides.

 

~ Sometimes the reading list is overwhelming. For some of my kids, they couldn't do it all. So we cut out some.

 

As far as complaints regarding literary analysis, I have not been in that camp. SL 100 and 200 have the most introductory levels of analysis, and by Core 530 it is really excellent, IMO. There is a gradual increase between levels. And again, how many books can you possibly cover with in-depth analysis every year? If the student only looks at character in this book, and then setting in that book, and foreshadowing in the next book, that is enough for me. I don't think my kids need all of it in every book.

 

I've graduated 3 and none felt the least bit unable to hold their own in college. They were all on the Dean's List. Again, the key in the writing is to actually REQUIRE the assignments, regularly.

 

I have seen time and again people who use Sonlight as a book reading list (I have as well). If you can't make the IG work for you (and sometimes I haven't), well you are going to miss out on all the analysis and thought and conversation and writing. These things have been there all along, but rather hard to get to. The guides have never been student "user friendly." I think they might be this year with the changes they have promised. We'll see!! Then all these things will be easier to implement.

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention -- the very best part -- the part that keeps me personally sane -- THE SCHEDULE! I live for the schedule!

 

I still like Sonlight a lot. So do my kids. But then again, I'm just some mom on the Internet, so YMMV.

[Ann@thebeach]

I have also done my fair share of complaining to Sonlight, but we've used it for 15+ years and still use it, including the high school level.

 

These are things I like:

 

~ The books. No, we LOVE the books. I love that the difficult books are interspersed with light fare. I do not understand those who complain about the book levels, when most curriculums (Abeka, BJU, etc) have only snippets of books or other programs (Hewitt, LLATL) only have several books per year. My kids have read bunches of books! They have not all "liked to read" as a hobby. For a couple of my kids, the homeschool booklist is likely to be all the reading they will do in their life other than nonfiction as an adult.

 

~ The history spines or lack of spines. No one I ever knew enjoyed a history textbook, and very few remember anything after the tests are passed. We add "meat" to the spines by studying to pass the history CLEP at the end of the year. My kids have all said history is their favorite suject.

 

~ The writing assignments. Here is the key to the writing assignments -- this is what most complainers do not do. The key is ---- here it is ---- have your kids actually DO the assignment. My kids write twice a week starting in 8th grade. One - the Sonlight assignment. Second, a 25-minute "in-class" essay. Here is the question or prompt, start the clock, okay you're done.

 

Another comment on the writing -- I've learned not to stress over it. Repeated practice helps more than anything. Lots of writing is better than tons of instruction over a few pieces of writing. So I require that my kids write a lot. If the paper assigned is too detailed or difficult to understand, then I just say "write a paper on this topic" requiring at least a page double spaced.

 

Somewhere in the high school years, we cover the SAT essay and college essays, note taking, etc. using IEW Essay Intensive and Advanced Communication set. This combination has worked for my kids. Volume in the younger years (from say, grade 6+) all the way through, along with these CD sets has been enough.

 

My complaints have been:

~ The questions written to the student vs. the answers in the parent key. These have been "logistical" issues dealing with difficulty of flipping here and there and whatnot, but I think they have been planning a great improvement in this area for the new guides.

 

~ Sometimes the reading list is overwhelming. For some of my kids, they couldn't do it all. So we cut out some.

 

As far as complaints regarding literary analysis, I have not been in that camp. SL 100 and 200 have the most introductory levels of analysis, and by Core 530 it is really excellent, IMO. There is a gradual increase between levels. And again, how many books can you possibly cover with in-depth analysis every year? If the student only looks at character in this book, and then setting in that book, and foreshadowing in the next book, that is enough for me. I don't think my kids need all of it in every book.

 

I've graduated 3 and none felt the least bit unable to hold their own in college. They were all on the Dean's List. Again, the key in the writing is to actually REQUIRE the assignments, regularly.

 

I have seen time and again people who use Sonlight as a book reading list (I have as well). If you can't make the IG work for you (and sometimes I haven't), well you are going to miss out on all the analysis and thought and conversation and writing. These things have been there all along, but rather hard to get to. The guides have never been student "user friendly." I think they might be this year with the changes they have promised. We'll see!! Then all these things will be easier to implement.

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention -- the very best part -- the part that keeps me personally sane -- THE SCHEDULE! I live for the schedule!

 

I still like Sonlight a lot. So do my kids. But then again, I'm just some mom on the Internet, so YMMV.

 

Great post! Thanks for sharing!

[flyingiguana]

I'd love to do TOG, but my kids would never have the time. They have other things they'd like to do besides just great books. (And, to be honest, I will never have the time either.) TOG doesn't seem to leave enough room in the day for science, math, and the arts, as well as reading for pure enjoyment. At least, that's how it would be in our family.

 

SL has always seemed a bit thin to us (because my kids just love to read) -- BUT it would be easy to supplement if it should become a problem for you. Just add a couple thought provoking books each year. There are plenty of lists to choose from. They don't even have to be hard books. And if these extra books don't result in any writing assignments, oh well.

 

We found we couldn't do SL in high school because my kids had already read a good number of the SL books. And if they were going to read easy books in addition to the harder ones, they wanted to choose their own. So that's what we did. But we've always flown by the seat of our pants. If you need structure, SL is a fine way to do it.

 

My impression of SL vs the local public schools is that SL is way deeper and richer. (Although, for our family, if we'd been using SL, we would have gone with a more rigorous science. But we're scientists, and seem to be raising scientists.)

[Melissa in CA]

I used SL Cores 100, 300, and 400 with older boys. Though they loved the books...and they were not readers...I didn't care for SL for high school.

 

I personally found I needed something concrete to grade for history. A test/quiz...something. SL didn't give me that. I found it impossible to know how to show their grades...because except for writing assignments...which I find SO subjective when grading...we had nothing TO show.:blink:

 

As for being to easy for high school, my boys found Core 400 quite difficult. They could not stand the main history spine because they could not really follow what the author was trying to say. Shoot, *I* could not follow what the author was trying to say half the time. Our discussions were horribly funny, "OK, what did he mean by that?" "Uh, I don't know mom, what do YOU think he meant by that?" "Heck if I know what he's talking about!" :lol: I honestly don't think they actually learned Government. Oh and the bible for 400...don't EVEN get me started on the bible!

 

I was also very, very disappointed with the Lit for 400. Zero literary analysis. They (SL) gave me nothing. I had to actually read the books with my boys to discuss them...like I had time for that! Sonlight is definitely not an independent high school curriculum. Meaning, you'll have to stay fully involved in his learning.

 

Oh, and don't get me started on the flipping and flopping through that massive TE. Ack.

.

.

.

OK, so now that I've given my reasons for not liking SL's high school cores, let me say this....

 

I miss it. I miss the books. History was soooo interesting with SL. If SL would change their high school curriculum to somehow add in more concrete grading opportunities, better and less confusing mapping, and more independent learning, I would probably go back in a heartbeat. No, I would never use Core 400 again (I couldn't sell that Core fast enough) but I would most definitely use the others. Core 100 was very interesting, as was Core 300, and I would have liked to try Core 200. Also, though we disliked Core 400, others do not. Everyone is different! I mean, I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED TOG. LOVED IT! I thought for sure we would use it from now until eternity! Loved everything about it...and then youngest ds asked me to please find something else. He didn't like all the skipping around from book to book. It confused him. He likes concise, factual, yadda, yadda, yadda. I was dumbfounded. Not like TOG? :blink: :001_huh: I thought briefly of going to SL with him, but he's a VERY independent learner and would hate to have to rely on me. He wants his assignment and wants to do it without any input from me. So, we are trying MFW high school this next year. We'll see how that pans out. ;)

 

Oh, and I would NOT worry about the SL reading levels. Good grief. Just let your student read and enjoy it. Some books will be more difficult than others and the lighter books are a bit of fresh air after reading more difficult ones. Not everyone needs, nor wants, a Great Books education. I know here on the forum it sounds like all that, but if your student is hating reading the Great Books...and some are just plain boring...what are you accomplishing, really? My older boys hated to read ANYTHING, but SL got them reading and enjoying the journey. That was worth all my struggles with the curriculum itself, and I don't regret it. ;) My older two were not at all academics. The Great Books would have bored them to absolute tears. But, you know what? They are doing fine in college and are definitely holding their own. I don't see that SL did them any harm whatsoever.

 

I say go for it!

 

(Sorry this is all over the place, I kept getting distracted!:glare:)

[G5052]

I have also done my fair share of complaining to Sonlight, but we've used it for 15+ years and still use it, including the high school level.

 

These are things I like:

 

~ The writing assignments. Here is the key to the writing assignments -- this is what most complainers do not do. The key is ---- here it is ---- have your kids actually DO the assignment. My kids write twice a week starting in 8th grade. One - the Sonlight assignment. Second, a 25-minute "in-class" essay. Here is the question or prompt, start the clock, okay you're done.

 

Another comment on the writing -- I've learned not to stress over it. Repeated practice helps more than anything. Lots of writing is better than tons of instruction over a few pieces of writing. So I require that my kids write a lot. If the paper assigned is too detailed or difficult to understand, then I just say "write a paper on this topic" requiring at least a page double spaced.

 

Somewhere in the high school years, we cover the SAT essay and college essays, note taking, etc. using IEW Essay Intensive and Advanced Communication set. This combination has worked for my kids. Volume in the younger years (from say, grade 6+) all the way through, along with these CD sets has been enough.

 

 

 

In my informal, local polls on the upper levels of Sonlight, everyone who was unhappy with how their graduates did in college admitted that they cut back the writing. Those who did it as written or worked out alternate assignments that kept their students writing did just fine. IMHO that is true of many curriculum choices though. You have to keep them writing and advancing all through high school.

[Mom0012]

I'm so glad you started this thread. I'm a long-time SL user, but had really started to assume that when my son hit 9th grade, we'd move him onto something else. I'm finding many of the responses to you very encouraging and am now rethinking my plans. Maybe we will use SL for HS.

 

Lisa

[momee]

Thank you all so much. Yes, I did post I had time to make bread...and I really did.

Many many thoughts going through my head. i wonder if we'd actually used SL as written all the way through how much smarter we would all be!

 

I don't trust enough and I think you have all reassured me that I need to let go of the worry and enjoy the journey. Funny, I had that very thing written on a notebook I kept with my son's school papers from his first year homeschooling. I think our homeschool association for our state had a beginning homeschool seminar or something and I got that from there :tongue_smilie: We really aren't going to teach them everything there is to know. We just aren't.

 

And if I had to give a new homeschooler advice, that is partially what it would be. Relax more, enjoy the journey.

Along with our experience growing in our faith and how much that came into play in our time at home. Anyway, you have all helped so much.

 

I have ALWAYS wondered about those who make rash judgements about a curricula without actually doing it as written. Great points made in this thread.

So great to hear from each of you. Thanks for taking the time to do exactly what I asked and make me feel better about a choice already made by children who LOVE the program. Isn't that every teacher's dream? For the kid's to enjoy the learning????? or at least inspire them to want to learn more?

Edited May 3, 2011 by momee

[ABQmom]

Great thread. Thanks to everyone who has shared their likes and dislikes. I have learned much from everyone.

[Lori D.]

Hey Momee,

And if it was anything *I* said in the recent thread on "SL for high school" that caused you doubts -- SO sorry! My intention was NEVER to disuade anyone from using SL, but rather to explain why it just doesn't work for *us*. (TOG is not a fit for us either!) And we sure don't hate or look down on SL (or SL users -- lol!) -- we use lots of books from SL lists,. It's a solid company -- it wouldn't still be around if it didn't work for lots of people!

 

SO glad you've found something your family enjoys! Use it, and -- you go, girl! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Farmgirl70]

We have not used Sonlight as a curriculum, but I was talking with a friend who used to teach high school history and now homeschools. I wanted to use the Hakim books for American history and was worried that they were not enough for high school. My friend said that the task at that age is more the analysis and the ability to synthesize and respond to the ideas presented. It encouraged me. She advised us to read things that were interesting and then have the discussions and read the papers. FWIW, we've read Hakim. My oldest thought she wanted a textbook that was more typical, so I bought one used. She's pronounced it boring and not as detailed as Hakim. So, she's back to the History of US.

[smilesonly]

I have switched from TOG to SL and have read and awful lot of comments from members here regarding how it's not enough for high school. Not enough writing instruction and not enough literary analysis.

 

This is very unsettling. It feels like I'm choosing something not as good as WTM or TOG and it's making me doubt our path.

Anyone been there with some advice on being more comfortable with it all?

 

Mainly I hear the reading selections aren't as "hard" as should be and a spine is important for a history course for high school.

What about my son's enjoyment factor? He's 17, unmotivated and TOG killed! his love for learning using "the Great Books". (Just being honest, not dissing TOG)

 

My husband felt like all I ever did was gather books and prepare to teach using TOG so it's not an option for us anymore, per his request. That's quite a statement seeing as he is usually very open to my doing whatever I want regarding curricula. I need to say also my students really ENJOY reading with Sonlight.

TIA for discussing the issue with me...

 

Momee,

 

I,too, am subject to moments of doubt regarding our hsing path. Here is my take on it-just my little .02.:D

 

This last weekend dh and I decided our HS plans are using Sonlight. There were three major factors we heavily wrestled with, and it was putting these on paper with great discussion, combined with admitting deep and honest truths about ourselves(mainly my dc and myself) that we were able to (finally!) make our decision. So, this isn't coming from BTDT experience-just our personal thought process-looking ahead,not just at HS, but our dc's life beyond...

 

For full disclosure, we pretty much had it narrowed down to Notgrass, MFW and Sonlight.

 

I recently read a passage from The Read Aloud Handbook by Jim Trelease, where he discusses his take on HSers reading the Great Books. What he said made so much sense to me. In his opinion, those books were written for a mature audience-not young adolescents. He discusses why only older teens and adults are truly mature enough to glean the goodness and truths from such literary works. He also states that the GBs weren't written with intention of the audience being anything other than adults. (Yes, I know, arguable.)

 

Following me reading that, dh and I then had a wonderful conversation about this topic. He did read a great deal of the GBs, starting in middle school and going through HS. He remembers details of many of them, but mainly he remembers the incredible discussions led by his teachers. A few teachers that were extremely familiar with and loved the GBs-loved nothing more than to ignite a love for them in their students, also. And so, dh has fond memories of reading, studying, and discussing the Great Books with these teachers that were able to lead passionate, thought-provoking discussions with their students. In his (not) so humble opinion, THAT is the setting in which the GBs should be read, discussed, and....Analyzed.

 

I cannot provide that for our dc. I have read only a small handful of GBs, with no discussion with great teachers. Reading them did nothing for me, other than temporarily kill my love for reading, and perhaps plant a seed of inferiority as I must have somehow felt I wasn't smart enough since I wasn't enjoying them.

Sure I can have a detailed, somewhat scripted teacher's guide, that prompts me to ask this or that about such and such book. But I honestly feel I would be short-changing our dc that way.

This is where the realities and honesty play a part. I don't want to fake my way through my dc's education, and of course I want the best for them! These are my own limitations at this time. I need a curriculum that allows me to be the best me! I do feel passionate about many, many things-and good books are at the top of my list! I get excited reading SL's books, and I know that excitement carries over to our dc! I am able to conduct thoughtful LA from many of these books-and that has to be good for something. I am positive this is the best way for me to execute my responsibilities as my dc's hs teacher.

Another consideration, is that we have two dc that are spaced 5 yrs apart. That would mean our book discussions include two:D people. That does not make for a lively sharing of opinions of such books-just my opinion. A classroom full of bright students, with a teacher similar to that which my dh had IS the ideal way to learn from GBs.

 

We also considered our oldest dc at this time. She's a bright, intense, charasmatic(sp?) dc, who is also a voracious reader. However, I do not believe she is ready for thoughtful, literary analysis of GBs. I need to meet her where she is at. I truly believe there will be a day when she is ready for that-but it may not be until her senior yr or even college. If before college, we can surely pull off doing SL's 530. However, I'm not sure that would be the best for her, for the reasons I mention above. At this time, she LOVES reading and loves learning. That has always been our ultimate goal for our dc. Most of her friends who attend private, public or even home-schools-can't remember the last time they actually read a book in it's entirety. I simply don't want to fix/change something that isn't broken.;)

 

As for not having a spine,easy reading books and a supposed lack of LA. I am one who thinks an education w/o texts and spines is perfectly okay-especially in regards to History. I also hold the opinion that many people learn content best when they are reading just below their reading level-so I have no problem at all with using the Hakim US books. They are so well written and SO engaging! Many of SL books are heavy and dark. When looking at a month of reading, that begs for lighter reading! (We are also a family that greatly enjoys wonderful Picture Books!:D) As for lack of LA-neither my dh nor I are seeing this in SL. Not at all. Then again, neither of us feels every book read needs to be picked apart and analyzed to death. Reading a book for the pure, simple joy of it is enough. I suppose if I get further along with SL, and do feel the need for more LA, I can do that! As many say, it's about making the curriculum work for you and your family-even if that means a bit of tweaking here or there.

 

Momee, it is so easy to fall into the comparison and self-doubt trap. I truly believe Satan HATES hs families, and will try to chip away at our vulnerable areas to create inner or outer tension. Please pray about what is best for you and your family. Ask God to help you feel confident and content with what you are doing.

I don't know, maybe it's my firm belief in the Attachment Parenting philosophy, that still drives me to follow my dc, as I've seen what happens when I don't! Eew-that is ugly for all of us and no one benefits.;)

 

:grouphug:

[momee]

Wow. So glad I asked to "discuss" this with you all. I had no idea such support was out there and hey, we might actually relax and enjoy this year after all. Which is exactly why we started homeschooling. Enjoy learning.

 

Thanks so much to each of you for your time, care and wise words filled with encouragement!

Edited May 5, 2011 by momee

[momee]

Just thought this was interesting Melissa -

I thought briefly of going to SL with him, but he's a VERY independent learner and would hate to have to rely on me. He wants his assignment and wants to do it without any input from me.

 

This is exactly why my daughter loves SL. She thinks the schedule and books were chosen just for her. For her interest, her reading ability level and her personal enjoyment. She thinks, really, SL designed her core with her in mind!

 

Interesting, my older child who used something else always wondered if the creator of that curricula ever had anyone do it, it was so jumbled and hard to do in one week.

[Melissa in CA]

Just thought this was interesting Melissa -

I thought briefly of going to SL with him, but he's a VERY independent learner and would hate to have to rely on me. He wants his assignment and wants to do it without any input from me.

 

This is exactly why my daughter loves SL. She thinks the schedule and books were chosen just for her. For her interest, her reading ability level and her personal enjoyment. She thinks, really, SL designed her core with her in mind!

 

Interesting, my older child who used something else always wondered if the creator of that curricula ever had anyone do it, it was so jumbled and hard to do in one week.

 

I just meant that my ds could never use SL independently. Yes, they have their readers which they read on their own, but the history (and bible...and even the higher levels of Lit) is actually written to be done with the parent....at least it was when we used it. :confused: There was no WAY we could have relevant discussions without my either reading the history with them, or reading it myself and us coming together to discuss it. That is one reason why TOG worked so well for me. My ds was totally independent of me. He didn't have to wait for mom to sit down to read history with him, or a read-aloud, or whatever. I had my TOG notes that I went over in my free time, and when we came together on Friday's I was pretty much good to go.

 

Gosh, just thinking aloud here, but I could never have handed my older boys SL Core 400 and have expected them to learn anything without talking it through. Or, Core 300s Westminster Confession of Faith! (bible) There HAD to be discussion there, and it had to be two-sided. I couldn't discuss something I was totally unfamiliar with, and what do I draw grades from if not the discussions (of course there was some actual questions to be answered on paper with Westminster, which is rare for SL...and the work was stinking TIME CONSUMING) but the teachings and concepts in Westminster needed to be discussed. I would never hand a doctrinal book like that to a student and not discuss it with them. And don't get me started on Core 400s Lit! :lol:

 

Anyhow, though I do know people probably hand SL to their child and walk away, SL, from my understanding, really wasn't made to be used that way. So, though I like SL and it's books, I don't think it would be a good fit for my youngest, very independent of me, ds. ;)

[happymop]

I recently read a passage from The Read Aloud Handbook by Jim Trelease, where he discusses his take on HSers reading the Great Books. What he said made so much sense to me. In his opinion, those books were written for a mature audience-not young adolescents. He discusses why only older teens and adults are truly mature enough to glean the goodness and truths from such literary works. He also states that the GBs weren't written with intention of the audience being anything other than adults. (Yes, I know, arguable.)

 

Following me reading that, dh and I then had a wonderful conversation about this topic. He did read a great deal of the GBs, starting in middle school and going through HS. He remembers details of many of them, but mainly he remembers the incredible discussions led by his teachers. A few teachers that were extremely familiar with and loved the GBs-loved nothing more than to ignite a love for them in their students, also. And so, dh has fond memories of reading, studying, and discussing the Great Books with these teachers that were able to lead passionate, thought-provoking discussions with their students. In his (not) so humble opinion, THAT is the setting in which the GBs should be read, discussed, and....Analyzed.

 

I cannot provide that for our dc. I have read only a small handful of GBs, with no discussion with great teachers. Reading them did nothing for me, other than temporarily kill my love for reading, and perhaps plant a seed of inferiority as I must have somehow felt I wasn't smart enough since I wasn't enjoying them.

Sure I can have a detailed, somewhat scripted teacher's guide, that prompts me to ask this or that about such and such book. But I honestly feel I would be short-changing our dc that way.

 

 

Thank you for your thoughtful post. You've brought huge relief by addressing the guilt I have over not doing a Great Books curriculum with my dd for 9th grade next year! I did Omnibus II with her this year and it was drudgery for both of us. Exactly as you wrote, even with the teacher guide, I felt totally inadequate. I've read articles on worldview academy's GB site, and it made me realize that, like your husband's experience, if the GBs are to be studied by teens, they need to be studied with a passionate teacher, and that's not me. But I couldn't get away from the feeling I was doing the wrong thing by her.

 

Thanks to everyone for this thread - I decided on SL recently, but got nervous today when I read some of the negative comments about SL and high school. This thread really helped!

 

~Lori :)

[elise2]

Great thoughts, ladies...very helpful!

I've been freed up from some of my uncalled-for guilt about using SL's history and books by reading the Home Scholar's (Lee Binz) blog post on hating literary analysis (it was good to hear someone else did, too!) and reminding myself of a few truths.

1. I received the English award in my high school and yet hated most of the "classics" we read.

2. I always felt like I was just spewing out jargon and what the teacher wanted to read when I had to "analyze" a work.

3. I'm 52 and its only in the past several years I've become more interested in the classics and then it's only in the ideas they introduced or discussed and how it fits in with history or people's changing worldviews.

4. English/lit/writing is not THE most important subject (unless your child is going into journalism, etc)although I realize one must be able to write essays and papers in high school and college.

5. I feel my kids learn an incredible amount about human nature, the depravity of man, and the ideas in the great books just from all our Bible reading and wrestling with the ideas therein. I don't want to force them into reading they dread...

 

Anyways, all this to say... every program has its positives and negatives. SL is strong, thorough, and enjoyable! Good Luck!

Blessings,

Elise