Latin or foreign language for our special needs kids?

[Night Elf]

My son Jeffrey has Asperger's Syndrome. 5 years ago I thought he was profoundly gifted and his quirks were just physical evidence of asynchronous development. I know he's gifted because of testing, but that part of his whole self is hidden behind his AS issues. But i guess that's all another post entirely.

 

So.. we tried Latin using Latin for Children over 2 years ago. He remembers the program. He did great with the memory work. He did not like the sing-song chants and was indifferent about the games. When I talk to him about bringing in another Latin program, he gets upset. He says he's not interested in Latin or any other language.

 

Is there a benefit to a foreign language for a child like Jeffrey? I would say yes, but I don't want to overstress him. We've just started working with IEW and it's going really well. Writing is definitely my main focus right now. But I really want to see him working on a Latin program, although I don't want a fun games type program but instead a simple, straight-forward, secular program that gets him working on vocabulary and translation. Would it be too much to try for something like that soon?

 

I'd love to talk about classical education and special needs kids. Is it too much to expect? Is it over the top for a kid who struggles with school work?

[Mom0012]

Beth -

 

I have always wondered about this. I attended a conference once where Mel Levine, author of A Mind At A Time, spoke. He said that for kids with special needs, it is often best to wait as long as possible to introduce a foreign language. I'm not sure why though? My son sounds very different from yours in that he has language-based learning disabilities. So, for him, I could see that it would be best to let him get the tightest grasp that he can on the English language before introducing another.

 

I always thought I would give both my kids a classical education, but I've recently begun to wonder if that is the right path for my son. It takes much longer to cover the basics with him and between that and the various therapies and/or interventions we are often involved in, I don't want to add anything else to his day. My daughter whizzes through things, so I want extras for her to keep her challenged and interested. I want the best education possible for my son. The funny thing is, he is the one with the passion for history and he's the one that loves to learn new things, but I'm not sure his interest is going to line up with his abilities. He is really suited personality-wise to being a serious student, but I'm beginning to realize that his abilities may not lie there. That really makes me sad for him.

 

I'll be interested to hear what others have to say.

 

Lisa

[Laurie]

My ds also has Asperger Syndrome. We tried Latin a few years ago, but it just didn't work out. I think my dh actually sabotaged my efforts because I had started a Latin program with the ecclesiastical pronunciation, only to have dh (who was apparently taught with the other pronunciation) tell us that the book was "wrong" and he started changing the pronunciation guide! Ds wasn't interested in Latin, didn't like the sound of the woman's voice on the dvd's, etc. so Dad's contribution put the final nail in the Latin coffin. (We'll do a Latin and Greek roots program for vocabulary building instead...)

 

Now, I'm trying to figure out which modern language to have him study to be able to meet university entrance requirements someday. I studied French, so that would be the easiest for me. He's also interested in French, but I think that's because he's very fascinated with Napoleon! I doubt we'd be traveling in France or even French-speaking Canada, so I'm hesitant to devote the time to a language he may never actually use. I think it would be more practical to study Spanish for future employment purposes, but he isn't a bit interested in Spanish. Maybe it's too intimidating for him? He did have a hard enough time learning to make the 'r' sound in English, so a rolling 'r' might be a cause for concern! He's interested in Japanese and even asked for a traveler's phrase book at the bookstore. Just the other day he presented me with a note filled with Japanese characters telling me that he would like some breakfast! Now I'm pretty sure that I could manage to learn Spanish along with him...but I'm afraid he'd be on his own with Japanese! If he wants to take Japanese classes at the community college someday I'd be all for it, but I just don't see how this could work right now.

 

My dd (high functioning autism) has been interested in Spanish ever since Dora the Explorer showed up on tv! She's learned quite a bit of vocabulary just from reading her Spanish picture dictionary and other children's beginning Spanish books. We're working on increasing her vocabulary of familiar household objects, common expressions, etc., and we just got a computer Spanish program to try. I'm not sure how far she'll be able to go in school, but I'm sure she'll be able to work in some setting. Again, I think Spanish is the only practical choice given where we live, and fortunately she has an interest, unlike her brother!

 

That's our story...Latin drop-outs. Hopefully we'll do better with Spanish and maybe even Japanese?!

 

Good luck with your Latin studies! And FWIW, I think if a student is really struggling with some aspect of his/her native language it's better to strengthen that area first before tackling something like Latin. After all, there are only so many hours in the day!

[happygrrl]

I am trying to do classical with a ds11 aspie, and neuro-typical dd 9 and ds7. I think my big breakthrough (for myself) came when i realized I needed to structure our school not to the oldest, but to the other two.... it avalanched a huge time of grieving for my aspie son. Now that I am at better terms with the fact that he won't be able to follow the WTM plan to the letter, I am determined to push him to the best of *his* abilities, while letting the other kids reach the best of theirs. It seemed like hey were being held back as I tried to push the oldest to fast. Hard, but real....

 

OK! Enough about me!!! I am in a similar boat with foreign language. I am thinking that in order to do the aspie version of classical, I need to get to the reason behind the subject, and tweak it for us. So then- foreign language... the point being stretching the part of the brain that learns language (related to logic and math, right?) and also Latin to decipher future vocabulary... I think that my son will not have any interest in learning more Latin, so we will go the Root Word Study route, and that will meet the objectives in a more appropriate fashion for him. Does that make sense? (It's still sort of vague in my own head, and I am trying to say too much with too few sentences and that is almost always bad.) I will still do Latin for the other two and will choose a program based on their needs, and maybe he will listen in. Or not. If he is not hating every minute of the day e can save his energy for math and writing- and maybe have a little time to develop in the areas where his gifts outshine his issues.

 

Wow- I know that was all jumbled, but I amagoing to hit 'submit' anyway, 'cause I think I needed to write it. I am really thinking hard about what classical ed looks liek for us. can you tell?:)

[Laurie]

 

and maybe have a little time to develop in the areas where his gifts outshine his issues.

 

:)

 

:iagree: And I just love how you said this!

[Night Elf]

If I'm going to be totally honest, I find it frustrating to find the best way to help my kids reach their potential. Jeffrey and Allie are only 20 months apart. I'm thankful they are not competitive. Yet Jeffrey absolutely does not like sharing work with his sister. For example, we could never do a subject together such as history or science. He firmly believes his work should be very separate from her work. I've gotten used to that.

 

Allie understands that Jeffrey has AS. She tells me she isn't bothered by their differences. She is very observant and recently told me that she likes to write and do math, while Jeffrey likes to read about science and history. She knows how difficult it is for Jeffrey to get a paragraph on paper, yet she suffers from the opposite of writing way too much.

 

Anyway, back to classical education. The reason I was drawn to this method originally is the focus on language. My children are naturals at language arts. Grammar, spelling, and vocabulary come easily to them. Writing has been the only struggle for Jeffrey, both penmanship and composition. He's conquered the penmanship issues and we are now working on composition. His obstacle with writing is not knowing what to write. That's a reflection of our trying to do oral narration years ago. He wants to retell everything. He is very literal and almost too descriptive. He would get so frustrated when I tried to teach him how to summarize. I wish I had tried IEW earlier. I think part of his current writing struggles is just plain fear. He's afraid to put anything on paper because he's not sure what is important to include.

 

Jeffrey has shown an interest in the unusual foreign languages. He has never had an interest in Spanish or French. At various times, he's suggested German, Chinese, Japanese, and now Russian. He balks at Latin because it is a dead language. Just last night we had another discussion about how Latin would be useful for language arts reasons and not just to teach him how to speak a foreign language. I've purchased a used copy of English from the Roots Up and ordered Getting Started with Latin from Amazon. I'll simply incorporate those into Jeffrey's regular school day as vocabulary work. K12 has him working in Vocabulary from Classical Roots and he's been enjoying it. He likes how the words are related. I don't think I want to attempt a spoken foreign language with him until high school. He completely resists the oral work. That was why he didn't like Latin for Children.

 

I'm going to read parts of TWTM today. I think it's time for a refresher course.

[Night Elf]

Would he do well with a more visual language like the Asian languages? I am all for Latin but we have to weigh the cost/ benefit ratio of him learning a language vs. his stress level going up. I am very leery of doing anything that increases dd's stress level because it makes all of us so miserable!

 

See, this is why I think Latin is good for him though. He's a very wordy guy. I think I misrepresented the idea of Latin to him originally, talking about it being a foreign language. In his literal mind, that means learning to speak it. But the reason I think Latin will be good is because it can be approached more as another language arts skill rather than learning a foreign language. Does that make sense? I know for a fact that he doesn't want to try to speak anything other than English. He likes to hear foreign languages spoken, but he feels very uncomfortable trying to speak it. That's why I don't think doing a current foreign language is good.

 

And as for the Asian characters, I shudder to think of him trying to write those. He can still get a little frustrated trying to write english words. His t will be too tall, or his a too wide, etc. He erases to write again. Typing has been the biggest help for him in getting past his perfection in handwriting skills.

[teachmom3]

. . . .during middle school, and then this past year, during his first year of high school, switched him to Spanish.

 

Latin was a nice introduction to a foreign language for him, especially given his difficulty with auditory processing and receptive/expressive language. Since there was very little spoken language with Latin (at least when compared to a modern language), he didn't have to deal with his disability as much. Also, he's a little dyspraxic, so writing is somewhat difficult for him. Latin basically uses the same alphabet as English, so that was another point in its favor.

 

The above issues, plus the fact that Latin is fairly regular in its grammar, led me to choose Latin as ds's introduction to how foreign languages work. (I was also hoping it would help with his English vocabulary, but I didn't see that much.)

 

After a couple of years of Latin in middle school, we switched to Spanish this year, taught in a homeschool class by a native speaker. Because of his experience in Latin, ds has had little, if any, trouble with Spanish. Indeed, he's doing better than most of the NT's in the class.

 

This leads to the question, then, of why Spanish? I guess there are a number of reasons, although I can't really rank order them in terms of importance or relevance. One is having another venue to work on auditory processing: He really has to concentrate on listening in Spanish. Another is to have experience with a teacher besides mom. A third reason is because here in southern California, having some knowledge of Spanish could be considered an independent living skill (to some extent). And lastly, Spanish in high school will be useful for college prep, either as fulfillment as an entrance requirement, or to help prepare him for the classes to fulfill the foreign language graduation requirement of whatever college he ends up at.

[Kathy in MD]

My son Jeffrey has Asperger's Syndrome. 5 years ago I thought he was profoundly gifted and his quirks were just physical evidence of asynchronous development. I know he's gifted because of testing, but that part of his whole self is hidden behind his AS issues. But i guess that's all another post entirely.

 

So.. we tried Latin using Latin for Children over 2 years ago. He remembers the program. He did great with the memory work. He did not like the sing-song chants and was indifferent about the games. When I talk to him about bringing in another Latin program, he gets upset. He says he's not interested in Latin or any other language.

 

Is there a benefit to a foreign language for a child like Jeffrey? I would say yes, but I don't want to overstress him. We've just started working with IEW and it's going really well. Writing is definitely my main focus right now. But I really want to see him working on a Latin program, although I don't want a fun games type program but instead a simple, straight-forward, secular program that gets him working on vocabulary and translation. Would it be too much to try for something like that soon?

 

I'd love to talk about classical education and special needs kids. Is it too much to expect? Is it over the top for a kid who struggles with school work?

 

I think classical can work, but it needs to be adapted. But it even needs to be adapted for students without LD's.

 

My ds has different problems from your's, mine has language-based problems and logic problems, amongst others. Because of the logic problems, I feel classical is great because it emphisises TEACHING logic, it doesn't just assume the child will learn how to think by being surrounded with thinking. Now the problem is is to find a logic program that teaches HOW to put together a well thought-out argument step-by-step, and not a program that just teaches all the terminology.

 

Because of my ds's language problems, I think Latin is a good way to start foreign languages. The stress is on writing and not conversation, so he has more time to think. Latin will also help with his poor English vocabulary and logic skills. If he wants to work on a modern language in high school, he'll have some background in studying another language. But even then, I may stress reading the 2nd language over conversation.

 

There are other classical teaching methods and ideas I find helpful for my ds. Learning to write by the modeling method has been a God-send for my ds. My ds floundered in school because he was told to write and then was told it wasn't good. The critique would include how to improve, but he needed to have a better idea before he started. Critiquing afterwards was just evidence that he'd failed again. By modeling, my ds can learn what is good and expected before he tries. Even his casual sentences are interesting and illustrative after doing Sentence Composing this year. Next year we'll start on IEW and hopefully his paragraphs and short reports will show an equivelent improvement.

 

My ds is a history nut, but doesn't enjoy reading. For him, combining history with historical novels helps get him interested in general reading.

 

I do adapt it for him. I use a lot of materials a year or two below his level to introduce him to the concepts and keep it from being too challenging for him. (Latin for Children is one :) ) But the classical methods are working in many areas for my ds.

[mariah m]

I've heard sign language mentioned as a possible foreign language idea for kids with special needs. I have two who are dyslexic and reading English is tough enough for them...was glad to hear about this alternative!

[Rosie_0801]

My hubby has a girl with severe autism in his Auslan (Australian Sign Language) class. She can't make eye contact, so he was despairing of her learning anything at all. Fluency is certainly not an option. Anyway, after a few months, (our school year starts at the end of January) her mother and integration aide reported that she had not only learned some of the signs, but was benefiting from the one on one signing practise in class. As a general rule she won't speak to anyone other than her mum and aide, but she has been making some effort towards signing in class. Maybe because she can get away with looking at the person's hands instead of their face? (Not polite in Deaf Culture, but that's hardly relevent in this situation.) Hopefully if this girl keeps up with it, some of that communication improvement will spill over into English!

:)

Rosie

[TravelingChris]

I decided to have my daughter who is a very auditory learner and has major spelling problems plus has a very hard time with memorizing learn Spanish. She just finished the class for Spanish I at our homeschool academy and got an A. It was a 90% A but it was an A. This was with her suffering from non-stop headache since late November. I chose Spanish because it has one of the best spelling systems. So far, she hasn't had almost any problems with spelling in Spanish. She made flash cards and reviewed over and over again. She had previously tried learning French when we lived in Wallonia, the French speaking part of Belgium and while she did learn her numbers and colors and such, she couldn;t spell any better in French than in English. I didn't push early language learning with her because of her memory issues. Her memory is improving as she gets older. (She is 14 now and finishing up ninth grade at home.)

[swellmomma]

I have found foreign languages to be a love of my children despite their "issues" over all in lessons my son hates that his little sister is surpassing him (they are less than 11 months apart and ds has bigger learning problems than her), but in foreign languages they are pretty evenly matched. They are currently doing french using ecoutex parlez and latin sing prima latina, they want to add spanish, cantonese and mandarin(we have a chinese family friend) in the mix. I add forgien language at the end of our school day so if we are having a good day we get to it, but if not no big deal. After missing them for a few days the kids buckel down with school work to spend time on languages.

 

I think if your child has in interest in foreign languages and enjoys it certainly add it to your lesson plan, but put it at the end of the day as a "bonus" typoe subject. Leave it as a fun activity with no pressure. If you are struggling alredy to cover "regular" school work then leave it be, but if there is an interest I say go for it. My kids have started speaking to others using the french phrases they are learning, and like to throw latin words into a conversation and are so proud of having learned those things even if we only do 1 lesson a week of it at this point. I do not worry about reading or writing in french or latin at this point, we are focused on speaking it and that seems to work for them, giving them an introduction to it with none of that feeling of "work"