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#1 DawnM

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 09:41 AM

Is Barton the most recommended for dyslexia? Anything else out there that is similar and will get the job done as well?

Thanks,

Dawn

#2 pdalley

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 09:46 AM

My son's tutor has used Wilson with him quite successfullyhttp://www.wilsonlan...c8-0003ff30d5ff.

#3 LizzyBee

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 10:48 AM

Is Barton the most recommended for dyslexia? Anything else out there that is similar and will get the job done as well?

Thanks,

Dawn


Barton is highly recommended for homeschooling or home tutoring because it's scripted, training on DVDs is included in the price, and customer service is outstanding. There are other good Orton Gillingham based programs out there that are just as good, but they require more work on the part of the parent or tutor. The Recipe for Reading manual is only $25 and tells you how to put together your own OG curriculum. Wilson is also popular with homeschoolers. My understanding is that you have to spend some time planning ahead, but it's not too hard to learn and implement.

Bottom line is the cost vs. time trade-off.

#4 Mandamom

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 11:35 AM

I believe many programs will work as long as you move at your child's pace. I'm OG trained and like aspects of Wilson, which I use to practice skills that need to be reinforced.

So, whatever program you choose if your child hasn't mastered the material than don't move ahead until they do. It will pay off in the long run.

#5 VinNY

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 11:35 AM

My dtr has a severe language impairment and all the visual issues associated with dyslexics. We are using Recipe for Reading..but what got her off the ground with phonemic awareness (hearing and making sounds) was LiPs (@$395). Barton has a screening test onsite to see if you need to use LiPs first. My dtr needed it.

Because of other expenses..I am using RR. I am finding RR very easy to implement..I just go at her pace. I turned to I See Sam Readers to get the reading going and more fluent and to Apples and Pears to get the spelling moving. My dtr is 9 and we are now seeing improvement. Now all the above was very reasonable in cost BUT big disclaimer..she has been doing VT since December and that is costing thousands. Also she has had SLP for years and getting resource room at the PS with a teacher trained in Wilson's Fundations since Nov. So I can't unequivocally say what it is exactly helping her. What I can say is that SN kids cost $:)

SO if your child doesn't need VT or LiPs and you want to just get the ball rolling and cover all the bases without thinking then I would look into Barton. If you feel comfortable experimenting another 6 months and have like $150 to spend..I would buy RR, I See Sam Readers and the Apples and Pears Spelling and give it a shot. I know others are seeing success with these products.

#6 DawnM

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 12:46 PM

He is 13 and is able to read on his own. He didn't really read until he was 9 years old, but he can read the SL Core 4 readers on his own and understand them for the most part. (Currently reading All of a Kind Family on his own.)

However, there are some words he trips up on or can't pronounce, so I know there are some things he is missing.

He will sound out a word (incorrectly) and when he sees the word again, enough though we have already talked about it, he will have to decode it again and sound it out again, usually incorrectly.

His spelling and decoding scored a 2 point something on the Woodcock-Johnson and he can't spell AT ALL! He will write sentences that look like this: Thay whent to the cassl and saw the kwene in her chare.

So, I know Barton levels 1 and 2 will be painful for him as he will NOT be happy to work through what he will think is "babyish."

Dawn

#7 LizzyBee

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 01:33 PM

So, I know Barton levels 1 and 2 will be painful for him as he will NOT be happy to work through what he will think is "babyish."

Dawn


Barton was originally written for older students and adults, then adapted for younger kids. So it's probably one of the better curricula to use with an older student.

Definitely do the screening test first to see if he needs LiPS. Most of the material taught in LiPS used to be taught in schools, but is now taught in college linguistics courses. In old primers, there are pages of linguistic material in the front that suddenly made sense to me after doing LiPS with my kids.

Edited by LizzyBee, 26 March 2011 - 01:36 PM.


#8 VinNY

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 02:40 PM

I was able to inter-library loan Recipe for Reading. It has a pre-test in the appendix to help you place your student in the manual. I think you would really like the ease of Apple and Pears Spelling. Level A starts with the basics and we did a lesson a day until Lesson 20 something. Then we started splitting the lessons over three days. But it is a very affordable , open and go program that would address the phonogram sounds your son is missing (kw-qu). It also provides lots of dictation exercises so you know if the spelling lesson is sticking. Book A has 67 levels (or lessons), Book B has 59 levels, book C also 59 levels and then Book D has 63 levels. If one is consistent and works year round, you could definitely remediate an older student within 2 years.

#9 merry gardens

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 02:42 PM

He is 13 and is able to read on his own. He didn't really read until he was 9 years old, but he can read the SL Core 4 readers on his own and understand them for the most part. (Currently reading All of a Kind Family on his own.)

However, there are some words he trips up on or can't pronounce, so I know there are some things he is missing.

He will sound out a word (incorrectly) and when he sees the word again, enough though we have already talked about it, he will have to decode it again and sound it out again, usually incorrectly.

His spelling and decoding scored a 2 point something on the Woodcock-Johnson and he can't spell AT ALL! He will write sentences that look like this: Thay whent to the cassl and saw the kwene in her chare.

So, I know Barton levels 1 and 2 will be painful for him as he will NOT be happy to work through what he will think is "babyish."

Dawn

I love Barton and can't tell you enough good things about that program! (Seriously, I could start an "I Love Barton" thread.) However, there are several other good programs out there too. The first couple of levels of Barton are very similar to the later parts of the LiPS program. LiPS isn't nearly as scripted as Barton, but it's good. The developers of LiPS, Lindamood-Bell, have another program called Seeing Stars that I found worthwhile.

Your 13 yo would probably find the Seeing Stars material more "baby-ish" than Barton, but the Seeing Stars manual might teach you some techniques to help your son develop his ability to remember how words are spelled. Barton teaches some slightly similar techniques to work on sight words-and if you choose to go with Barton, pay careful attention to that part of the training dvds! I use Barton primarily, but I supplement with some materials from Seeing Stars.

Seeing Stars is not an Orton-Gillingham program. If your sons is dyslexic, I would suggest an O-G program, like Barton or Wilson, but the techniques found in Seeing Stars could be helpful too. We started with LiPS because my son couldn't pass the Barton screening. My son didn't have the phonemic awareness that your son seems to demonstrate in his spelling mistakes above, which seemed phonetically correct yet wrong. (Ay does say the long a sound, but we don't use it to spell the word "they". He even recognized the /kw/ sound of q!) Based on what you posted here of his work, it stands out to me that your son needs to develop his visual memory for words.

#10 DawnM

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 04:25 PM

Would Barton help with the visual memory issues?

Thanks,

Dawn

My son didn't have the phonemic awareness that your son seems to demonstrate in his spelling mistakes above, which seemed phonetically correct yet wrong. (Ay does say the long a sound, but we don't use it to spell the word "they". He even recognized the /kw/ sound of q!) Based on what you posted here of his work, it stands out to me that your son needs to develop his visual memory for words.



#11 LizzyBee

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 04:49 PM

Would Barton help with the visual memory issues?

Thanks,

Dawn


That would be a good question to ask Susan Barton. She has fantastic customer service and will talk to you or email you personally. My dd had horrible auditory memory when we started, and Susan said LiPS and Barton would improve it. I didn't ask about visual memory, though, because my dd's issues are auditory.

#12 ElizabethB

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 04:54 PM

At the level he's reading at, you are probably better off using Rewards along with ideas from Recipe for Reading. (Cheaper, too!) It should work faster than Barton if it is going to work, you can customize it easier. Rewards is for an older child, so won't be as insulting. You can add a bit of the simpler words and ideas from Recipe for Reading, slipping in most of the easier things as spelling practice.

I would also try Webster's Speller and my spelling rules and syllable division rules, they are all linked at the bottom of my how to tutor page. I would also add in some nonsense words, either with my game or through "We All Can Read, 3rd Grade and Above" or ABeCaDarian, someone recently linked to some free nonsense words they have here:

http://www.abcdrp.com/supplements.asp

Is he good at math? My remedial students who are good at math like my charts, they show the percentages of each sound based on a study of the most common 17,000 words in English. This would have fixed the qu problem in queen, the "kw" sound is made with qu 99.5% of the time and kw only 0.5% of the time. (Although it would have led him to ea instead of ee...ea slightly beats out ee for the most common spelling of long e.) It is a helpful tool for people who are better at math than reading and spelling, I allow my students to use it as a reference when trying to spell words and they eventually start to internalize some of it.

http://www.thephonic...ramsoundch.html

For a struggling speller, I like "Spelling Plus," it combines rules with the most frequent 1,000 words, so you're focusing your spelling efforts on words that matter most. From the Spelling Plus website:

90% of text in English consists of just 1000 base words! Spelling Plus will help you teach the most commonly used and misspelled words to mastery, ensuring improvement in students' first-draft writing.


(You can also order it from RR or CBD. It has a companion book called Spelling Dictation.)

#13 ElizabethB

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 05:06 PM

You can download a free student lesson and the teacher's plan for Rewards to see what you think:

http://www.soprislea...te#Intermediate

#14 DawnM

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 05:09 PM

The frustrating part for ME is that we have already talked endlessly about spelling rules. He has heard several times from me that qu is used 99% of the time. But using that rule later doesn't happen!

I will take a look at the resources.

We have tried several spelling programs and none of them seem to "stick" with him. And I know they work because my other two children get it! They just don't work with HIM.

Dawn

PS: I really don't think he has visual memory issues. I KNOW he doesn't have auditory memory issues, he can remember and recall everything I read to him. He can even remember details of a book I read to him months and years later, even when I have forgotten them!

At the level he's reading at, you are probably better off using Rewards along with ideas from Recipe for Reading. (Cheaper, too!) It should work faster than Barton if it is going to work, you can customize it easier. Rewards is for an older child, so won't be as insulting. You can add a bit of the simpler words and ideas from Recipe for Reading, slipping in most of the easier things as spelling practice.

I would also try Webster's Speller and my spelling rules and syllable division rules, they are all linked at the bottom of my how to tutor page. I would also add in some nonsense words, either with my game or through "We All Can Read, 3rd Grade and Above" or ABeCaDarian, someone recently linked to some free nonsense words they have here:

http://www.abcdrp.com/supplements.asp

Is he good at math? My remedial students who are good at math like my charts, they show the percentages of each sound based on a study of the most common 17,000 words in English. This would have fixed the qu problem in queen, the "kw" sound is made with qu 99.5% of the time and kw only 0.5% of the time. (Although it would have led him to ea instead of ee...ea slightly beats out ee for the most common spelling of long e.) It is a helpful tool for people who are better at math than reading and spelling, I allow my students to use it as a reference when trying to spell words and they eventually start to internalize some of it.

http://www.thephonic...ramsoundch.html

For a struggling speller, I like "Spelling Plus," it combines rules with the most frequent 1,000 words, so you're focusing your spelling efforts on words that matter most. From the Spelling Plus website:



(You can also order it from RR or CBD. It has a companion book called Spelling Dictation.)



#15 merry gardens

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 05:36 PM

Would Barton help with the visual memory issues?

Thanks,

Dawn

You might want to call Susan Barton and ask her that question specifically. The program teaches and works with some techniques for learning sight words, but it has a larger focus on de-coding and spelling according to the rules of our language. Some of those visual memory issues can be by-passed by learning spelling rules that guide us on when to spell a sound one way vs. another way. I just recently finished Barton level four with three of my children. By level four, Barton would have addressed all of the spelling mistakes in your example through one means or another.

Also, when I wrote that it stood out to me that your son needed to develop his visual memory for words, I didn't address his de-coding skills. I can't tell from what you wrote here how serious his de-coding problems are, but you expressed concern about his de-coding skills too, and Barton can definately help with that.

I learned about Lindamood-Bell and the LiPs program through Susan Barton. If she doesn't think her program is what your son needs, I expect she'd tell you. I do think Barton Reading and Spelling would help, and, as LizzyBee mentioned, that program is something appropriate for use with an older child. But since you asked about other programs--and especially since his spelling mistakes stood out to me as possibly relating to a poor visual memory for words--I mentioned the Seeing Stars manual and program.

#16 DawnM

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 05:44 PM

Thank you.

I probably should just pay for him to be fully assessed. My husband just is bawling at the price.

However, that would help with understanding what exactly the issues are.

Dawn

You might want to call Susan Barton and ask her that question specifically. The program teaches and works with some techniques for learning sight words, but it has a larger focus on de-coding and spelling according to the rules of our language. Some of those visual memory issues can be by-passed by learning spelling rules that guide us on when to spell a sound one way vs. another way. I just recently finished Barton level four with three of my children. By level four, Barton would have addressed all of the spelling mistakes in your example through one means or another.

Also, when I wrote that it stood out to me that your son needed to develop his visual memory for words, I didn't address his de-coding skills. I can't tell from what you wrote here how serious his de-coding problems are, but you expressed concern about his de-coding skills too, and Barton can definately help with that.

I learned about Lindamood-Bell and the LiPs program through Susan Barton. If she doesn't think her program is what your son needs, I expect she'd tell you. I do think Barton Reading and Spelling would help, and, as LizzyBee mentioned, that program is something appropriate for use with an older child. But since you asked about other programs--and especially since his spelling mistakes stood out to me as possibly relating to a poor visual memory for words--I mentioned the Seeing Stars manual and program.



#17 OhElizabeth

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 07:21 PM

Don't buy curriculum till you figure out what the problem is. You can put a lot of money into curriculum and not even be treating the right problem. (just putting your two posts together here)

#18 ElizabethB

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 07:31 PM

You could also try the overteaching spelling method that Laurie explains, here is her thread about it, that is what I would do if I had tried rules and percentages and it didn't work, it is a system for overlearning the most common words based on frequency:

http://www.welltrain... frequent words

It does sound like you are going to need an OG program.

Everyone who I know that has used Barton loves it. But, the majority of the people I know who have used it successfully have taken 2 to 4 years to get their children at grade level.

I know several others who have used Rewards and Recipe for Reading and have been successful at getting their children to grade level much quicker. (And cheaper! Rewards is $92 for the teacher's manual and $11 for the student workbook, the Recipe for Reading manual is $25.)

(Friends have shown me Barton, and I've downloaded the Rewards samples. I used to own a copy of Recipe for Reading but have loaned it out. Disclaimer: Noah Webster has never given me a dime. Also, none of those other companies I routinely recommend have given me any money.)

#19 LizzyBee

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 07:58 PM

Everyone who I know that has used Barton loves it. But, the majority of the people I know who have used it successfully have taken 2 to 4 years to get their children at grade level. I know several others who have used Rewards and Recipe for Reading and have been successful at getting their children to grade level much quicker.


In comparisons of OG with Phonographix, I've read that if it works for your child, the phonographix will get the child reading on level faster than OG, but then they have to go back and use something else for spelling. I'm curious about your statement above - have you found Rewards and RfR to work faster for both reading and spelling, or just reading?

#20 DawnM

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 08:19 PM

You all are giving me a lot to study and learn about!

Thank you!,

Dawn

#21 ElizabethB

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Posted 26 March 2011 - 08:31 PM

In comparisons of OG with Phonographix, I've read that if it works for your child, the phonographix will get the child reading on level faster than OG, but then they have to go back and use something else for spelling. I'm curious about your statement above - have you found Rewards and RfR to work faster for both reading and spelling, or just reading?


Hmm, I have not asked about spelling. So, all the people that I talked to, I just asked about reading, although with most people, no matter what program they use, spelling remediation lags reading remediation.

A have had a few young boy students who are good spellers compared to their reading abilities, however. They could usually spell most 4 to 6 letter words faster than they could read them when I first started working with them!! I have not yet had a girl who could spell faster than she could read.

#22 DawnM

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:38 AM

Thank you. I printed this out. So far, the first section he gets without an issue....nonsense words and the story. I will do more today.

Last night I sat with him and we discussed syllables. He seems to get that too. He was able to section all the words I gave him into correct syllables.

Dawn

At the level he's reading at, you are probably better off using Rewards along with ideas from Recipe for Reading. (Cheaper, too!) It should work faster than Barton if it is going to work, you can customize it easier. Rewards is for an older child, so won't be as insulting. You can add a bit of the simpler words and ideas from Recipe for Reading, slipping in most of the easier things as spelling practice.

I would also try Webster's Speller and my spelling rules and syllable division rules, they are all linked at the bottom of my how to tutor page. I would also add in some nonsense words, either with my game or through "We All Can Read, 3rd Grade and Above" or ABeCaDarian, someone recently linked to some free nonsense words they have here:

http://www.abcdrp.com/supplements.asp

Is he good at math? My remedial students who are good at math like my charts, they show the percentages of each sound based on a study of the most common 17,000 words in English. This would have fixed the qu problem in queen, the "kw" sound is made with qu 99.5% of the time and kw only 0.5% of the time. (Although it would have led him to ea instead of ee...ea slightly beats out ee for the most common spelling of long e.) It is a helpful tool for people who are better at math than reading and spelling, I allow my students to use it as a reference when trying to spell words and they eventually start to internalize some of it.

http://www.thephonic...ramsoundch.html

For a struggling speller, I like "Spelling Plus," it combines rules with the most frequent 1,000 words, so you're focusing your spelling efforts on words that matter most. From the Spelling Plus website:



(You can also order it from RR or CBD. It has a companion book called Spelling Dictation.)



#23 LizzyBee

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 02:07 PM

Hmm, I have not asked about spelling. So, all the people that I talked to, I just asked about reading, although with most people, no matter what program they use, spelling remediation lags reading remediation.

A have had a few young boy students who are good spellers compared to their reading abilities, however. They could usually spell most 4 to 6 letter words faster than they could read them when I first started working with them!! I have not yet had a girl who could spell faster than she could read.


I agree that spelling almost always lags behind reading. But I think one reason Barton (and most OG programs) takes longer than some other programs is because the reading and spelling are worked on together rather than separately. My dd's reading level not only exceeds her spelling level, but it is also ahead of where we are in Barton. Some days it's tempting to skip ahead or use something faster for reading and then come back to Barton for spelling. However, I've resisted the urge to do that because I believe the foundation we're laying will be invaluable. Before dd was dismissed from speech therapy, her speech therapist kept telling me to stick with Barton and don't skip anything. Also, I have a 17 yo nephew who is severely dyslexic. He went to a school for dyslexics but they use phonographix rather than OG. His reading and spelling skills were so poor in 8th grade that his mom decided to have him repeat 8th grade rather than moving on to high school. During that year, the school started over from the beginning with him and went through the entire curriculum at an accelerated pace. I don't want to get in a hurry with dd and then realize she has gaps because of my impatience.

I'm not saying what we're doing is best for everyone. But with my dd, I see how effective Barton is, but it is slow, and I just have to keep reminding myself to be patient. :001_smile:

That is interesting about the kids who can spell faster than they can read. I wonder what the mechanism is that allows them to translate from sound to symbol faster than symbol to sound.

#24 *~Tina~*

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 03:39 PM

Here's a post from a while back on Barton vs. Wilson

http://www.welltrain...ighlight=Barton

I shared this on my blog as well, but I can't remember if I added anything additional when I posted it there.

I also like Recipe for Reading and The ABC's of OG by Emi Flynn.

#25 DawnM

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:33 PM

Barton is reading AND spelling? So if I did Barton I wouldn't need an additional spelling program?

Thanks,

Dawn

#26 LizzyBee

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 06:34 PM

Barton is reading AND spelling? So if I did Barton I wouldn't need an additional spelling program?

Thanks,

Dawn


That is correct. Reading and spelling to 9th grade level, including word roots.

#27 DawnM

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 08:58 PM

Thank you.

I am really trying to determine if he needs the reading portion now that I have read a bit more of the method and information.

I understand that if he can't sound out words like caught or sought immediately he needs some remediation, but he is reading at about a 5th grade level according to the W-J. He is also able to read all of Sonlight's Core 4 readers and understand and retain the information. We also have gone over syllables this weekend and some reading of words that aren't words. He gets all of that, although he may be a year or two behind.

I am thinking perhaps he would be best served with a very intensive/remediated spelling program like AAS or Apples and Pears.

The money is a factor, although I WILL spend what is needed if it is indeed needed. Just not sure if it is.

Dawn

#28 LizzyBee

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 09:14 PM

Thank you.

I am really trying to determine if he needs the reading portion now that I have read a bit more of the method and information.

I understand that if he can't sound out words like caught or sought immediately he needs some remediation, but he is reading at about a 5th grade level according to the W-J. He is also able to read all of Sonlight's Core 4 readers and understand and retain the information. We also have gone over syllables this weekend and some reading of words that aren't words. He gets all of that, although he may be a year or two behind.

I am thinking perhaps he would be best served with a very intensive/remediated spelling program like AAS or Apples and Pears.

The money is a factor, although I WILL spend what is needed if it is indeed needed. Just not sure if it is.

Dawn


You might consider calling Susan Barton and talking to her about it. She is an honest person and will tell people if Barton is not their best choice.

#29 DawnM

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 09:45 PM

Thank you! I just may do that.

By the Way: Did any of you see that AAS has started writing a reading program? Right now it is only level 1, but man, I wish it had been around years ago.

Dawn

You might consider calling Susan Barton and talking to her about it. She is an honest person and will tell people if Barton is not their best choice.



#30 ElizabethB

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Posted 27 March 2011 - 11:49 PM

I agree that spelling almost always lags behind reading. But I think one reason Barton (and most OG programs) takes longer than some other programs is because the reading and spelling are worked on together rather than separately. My dd's reading level not only exceeds her spelling level, but it is also ahead of where we are in Barton. Some days it's tempting to skip ahead or use something faster for reading and then come back to Barton for spelling. However, I've resisted the urge to do that because I believe the foundation we're laying will be invaluable.

....

I'm not saying what we're doing is best for everyone. But with my dd, I see how effective Barton is, but it is slow, and I just have to keep reminding myself to be patient. :001_smile:


I'm glad it's working for you. And, I'm not anti-Barton, it is a good program. I just think that it is an expensive, time-consuming first step, why use a cannon if a rifle is going to do the job quicker and cheaper!

I also do spelling at the same time as phonics, especially with my remedial students, but also with my own children. I find it actually cuts down on the amount of time you need to spend on phonics while improving their spelling. I will move ahead with phonics, though, especially for K and 1st grade! I have young students read 2+ syllable words, it would take a month to learn to spell one. I do let them try an occasional phonetic 2+ syllable word or a 3+ syllable word with hints.

That is interesting about the kids who can spell faster than they can read. I wonder what the mechanism is that allows them to translate from sound to symbol faster than symbol to sound.


It is interesting. I'm not sure, I have wondered that, too. For something like short a or short i, there is basically 1 possibility when going from sound to spelling but looking at an a or an i in a word, there are more possibilities. (Although not really once they learn the syllable division rules and the rules for when vowels are short and long.) So, that could be it, but I'm thinking that the simple answer may not be the answer, there may be something going on in the processing. (Also, once I start teaching them the rules and teaching them phonics with syllables and nonsense words, they get faster at reading than spelling.)

I am really trying to determine if he needs the reading portion now that I have read a bit more of the method and information.

I understand that if he can't sound out words like caught or sought immediately he needs some remediation, but he is reading at about a 5th grade level according to the W-J. He is also able to read all of Sonlight's Core 4 readers and understand and retain the information. We also have gone over syllables this weekend and some reading of words that aren't words. He gets all of that, although he may be a year or two behind.

I am thinking perhaps he would be best served with a very intensive/remediated spelling program like AAS or Apples and Pears.

The money is a factor, although I WILL spend what is needed if it is indeed needed. Just not sure if it is.

Dawn


Hopefully the rifle/BB gun of something like AAS will work for you! No need to break out the cannon if you don't need it.

Words like caught and sought are actually pretty tricky, they are some of the last things taught in any well designed phonics program.

#31 LizzyBee

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:31 AM

I'm glad it's working for you. And, I'm not anti-Barton, it is a good program. I just think that it is an expensive, time-consuming first step, why use a cannon if a rifle is going to do the job quicker and cheaper!


I agree. We tried the small guns, but my dd needs the cannon. I sometimes recommend AAS to other parents even though it was an epic fail for my dd - usually for a child who is reading on grade level but struggling with spelling. I also recommend Recipe for Reading and Wilson, which are cannons (OG), but cheaper than Barton.

Dawn asked about Barton, so I've talked about Barton in this thread. And I admit, I recommend Barton a lot because it's so easy to use and I've seen how effective it is. The things I tried before LiPS and Barton were cheaper, but to a large extent, they were also a waste of time and money for my kid. The value of sharing our personal stories is that when I recognize my kid in someone else's story, it gives me clues about what might work and what might not work for her.

Edited by LizzyBee, 28 March 2011 - 06:46 PM.


#32 Ottakee

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 10:33 AM

I have never used Barton but if he is reading and understanding at that level, what about checking out Apples and Pears spelling from http://www.promethea...ationsbooks.htm It would be much easier and cheaper to use and take up a lot less time. They also have some good reading programs that again, would be much cheaper and easier to use. They have samples of everything on line and you could try the placement tests.

#33 merry gardens

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:21 AM

I'm glad it's working for you. And, I'm not anti-Barton, it is a good program. I just think that it is an expensive, time-consuming first step, why use a cannon if a rifle is going to do the job quicker and cheaper!

I also do spelling at the same time as phonics, especially with my remedial students, but also with my own children. I find it actually cuts down on the amount of time you need to spend on phonics while improving their spelling. I will move ahead with phonics, though, especially for K and 1st grade! I have young students read 2+ syllable words, it would take a month to learn to spell one. I do let them try an occasional phonetic 2+ syllable word or a 3+ syllable word with hints.



It is interesting. I'm not sure, I have wondered that, too. For something like short a or short i, there is basically 1 possibility when going from sound to spelling but looking at an a or an i in a word, there are more possibilities. (Although not really once they learn the syllable division rules and the rules for when vowels are short and long.) So, that could be it, but I'm thinking that the simple answer may not be the answer, there may be something going on in the processing. (Also, once I start teaching them the rules and teaching them phonics with syllables and nonsense words, they get faster at reading than spelling.)



Hopefully the rifle/BB gun of something like AAS will work for you! No need to break out the cannon if you don't need it.

Words like caught and sought are actually pretty tricky, they are some of the last things taught in any well designed phonics program.

Elizabeth, I respect very much what you do to promote reading through the advice you give on this board and your free phonics lessons. I never thought of you as an "anti-Barton" person. :)

My son with the reading struggles had significant phonemic awareness problems plus a very poor memory for what words look like, plus mild confussion about what some common words mean and language difficulties in general. From my description, it may sound like my son isn't very bright, but he is! Like many people with dyslexic he is remarkably smart--at some things. He's also friendly and polite and well-adjusted socially. When I took him for testing earlier on this journey, professionals unfamiliar with dyslexia looked at me like I was crazy, until something finally popped up and they'd say--"Oh, I see what you mean now." My son's problems showed up early because his dyslexia is severe, but I didn't know what I was seeing at the time. I have since then come to recognize that another of my children has similar problems that are far milder.

If anyone interested in using Barton--even for children who only have spelling problems and not reading problems--I have only good things to say about Barton. I use it with my non-dyslexic (or possibly only mildly-dyslexic) children to work on their spelling, and the Barton lessons do not take very long with them. I went through the entire first level of Barton with one of my non-dyslexic children in one sitting. That same unit took my very dyslexic son a couple of months after he had already done a portion of LiPS. I find the lessons take a long time when the child needs work in that area. Because my severely dyslexic child needs a lot of work in most every area, Barton takes a very long time with him. It takes about 10-20% of time to do with my others unless they have encountered an area where they struggle.

Okay, the price of Barton is expensive, but I buy it level by level, (so I can see that it's working before investing the full amount) AND I spent plenty of money (and time and frustration) on less expensive, less explicit programs that didn't work for my severely dyslexic child. If I seem like I am quick to recommend "cannons" when "bb guns" may be appropriate, that is based on my own experience. There was no way I would have even considered spending money on Barton if I hadn't already spent plenty of time and effort on other things that hadn't helped.

I still try other things. There are some techniques discussed in the Seeing Stars manual that I use with my children that might also help the op with her son. Maybe those techniques are already in the other "bb gun" and "rifle" programs or they can be incorporated into them. Some of those techniques are built into the Barton program. Right now I'm reading some other highly specialized teaching manuals for dyslexia--and I am once again impressed that Susan Barton has implemented many of these ideas into her program.

#34 LizzyBee

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 11:49 AM

Elizabeth, I respect very much what you do to promote reading through the advice you give on this board and your free phonics lessons. I never thought of you as an "anti-Barton" person. :)

From my description, it may sound like my son isn't very bright, but he is! Like many people with dyslexic he is remarkably smart--at some things. He's also friendly and polite and well-adjusted socially. When I took him for testing earlier on this journey, professionals unfamiliar with dyslexia looked at me like I was crazy, until something finally popped up and they'd say--"Oh, I see what you mean now." My son's problems showed up early because his dyslexia is severe, but I didn't know what I was seeing at the time. I have since then come to recognize that another of my children has similar problems that are far milder.

Right now I'm reading some other highly specialized teaching manuals for dyslexia--and I am once again impressed that Susan Barton has implemented many of these ideas into her program.


ElizabethB, I agree with merry gardens, and I have recommended your website to other parents, too. :001_smile:

Merry Gardens, when I list out all of my dd's diagnoses, I think to myself that it sounds like she should be a quivering heap on the floor. :D But she's smart, social, well-adjusted, and normal. My experience with professionals was sort of the opposite of yours. I thought people might think I was just a worrry wart mom and tell me there was nothing wrong with dd. Instead, she got at least one diagnosis from pretty much every professional we've seen. I was uncertain about her ADHD diagnosis until I watched her OT and SLP redirect, redirect, redirect week after week. I obviously realized there was something going on, or I wouldn't have had dd evaluated; but our family doctor saw it first (irt speech), then the other professionals we saw recognized the severity of her LDs before I did.

When I went to the NC dyslexia conference, a lot of OG methodology was presented in bits and pieces via short seminars. In many of them, I thought, oh, we do that in Barton, or Barton does that in Level fill-in-the-blank. Susan is certified in something like 8 OG curricula, so she really does know her stuff. I love that she wrote something new that is more accessible to parents and volunteers than most of the other OG curricula.

Now, if the Making Math Real guy would get his Barton-style math program written, I'd be one happy mama! But from what I've heard, that's on hold indefinitely. :glare:

Edited by LizzyBee, 28 March 2011 - 04:37 PM.


#35 DawnM

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 02:22 PM

Thank you so much. I did some more work with him and he definitely gets the phonemic awareness and is able to split words into syllables. He is not always able to tell me how many graphemes are in the word, particularly when the word has two graphemes or more for one phoneme (like gnaw or caught or listen for example.)

He can tell me that the word "sunshine" has 7 phonemes and where the syllables are split, etc.....

Dawn

Hopefully the rifle/BB gun of something like AAS will work for you! No need to break out the cannon if you don't need it.

Words like caught and sought are actually pretty tricky, they are some of the last things taught in any well designed phonics program.



#36 ElizabethB

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 05:00 PM

I did some more work with him and he definitely gets the phonemic awareness and is able to split words into syllables. He is not always able to tell me how many graphemes are in the word, particularly when the word has two graphemes or more for one phoneme (like gnaw or caught or listen for example.)

He can tell me that the word "sunshine" has 7 phonemes and where the syllables are split, etc.....

Dawn


Interesting. I'm glad you're narrowing down what he needs to work on!

I would try my UPP with him, it might be a good bridge while you are working on those types of things. Teach him the key quickly (the top version, the one-page version is hard to read) and then work through the Anti-Federalist, try both the hyphen and non-hyphen version. It shows joining lines and/or has X's above silent letters, so it should allow him to more easily read something written at a 12th grade level. (If he has good vision, he may be able to use my 1 page key as a reference when he is reading.)

For some students, my UPP is very helpful. A few find it visually distracting and it is not helpful for them. It takes a bit of time to get used to.

Most of my students who are diagnosed with dyslexia or who I suspect of dyslexia prefer the non-hyphen version. My students with speech problems do better with the version with the hyphen marks.

The consonant letter teams of gh, gn, gu, kn, mb, mn, rh, and wr are teams of letters that used to say a different sound or work together to say one sound, they are connected to show this. In a word like listen or often, the t is just silent, so the letters are not joined.

http://www.thephonic...eading/upp.html

Edited by ElizabethB, 29 March 2011 - 05:58 PM.


#37 DawnM

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Posted 28 March 2011 - 09:41 PM

Thanks. We will take a look tomorrow.

Dawn

#38 ElizabethB

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 11:11 AM

Also, my phonics lesson 20 covers a lot of the things it looks like he is having trouble with, and teaches using the UPP. Each lesson starts with the phrase "These phonics lessons are offered for free out of love for Jesus Christ" and ends with 1/2 chapter from the book of Romans.

#39 proudmamma

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 04:11 PM

Hmm...I have hesitated to respond, but my son went through the entire Barton program and was still unable to spell. We took 4 years to go through it. It did definitely help with his reading, but spelling NOT! I am now using AAS with him. We are on level 3 and things are going well. Maybe it is because he has gone through Barton already and it is similar... I think the genious of the AAS program is in the review box. I always wondered why Barton didn't have some kind of review when it came to spelling rules, etc. My severely dyslexic son certainly needs a ton of review or he just forgets, and I think that was lacking with Barton. I have no regrets in using it because it did improve his reading tremendously, but I feel like spelling is not it's strong suit. My 2 cents...

#40 DawnM

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:19 PM

This is where I am leaning after looking closer at what his issues may be.

He is really doing better in grammar and writing as a developed skill, although he has a long way to go with syntax and grammar, let alone spelling.

I tried AAS before but *I* failed! I didn't put the effort into it and so I didn't do it.

I sold it, but am looking at buying it again and using it with all my kids. I have a 1st grader this year so it will be good for him, but it won't hurt my 5th grader either, even though he is a good speller for the most part.

Dawn

Hmm...I have hesitated to respond, but my son went through the entire Barton program and was still unable to spell. We took 4 years to go through it. It did definitely help with his reading, but spelling NOT! I am now using AAS with him. We are on level 3 and things are going well. Maybe it is because he has gone through Barton already and it is similar... I think the genious of the AAS program is in the review box. I always wondered why Barton didn't have some kind of review when it came to spelling rules, etc. My severely dyslexic son certainly needs a ton of review or he just forgets, and I think that was lacking with Barton. I have no regrets in using it because it did improve his reading tremendously, but I feel like spelling is not it's strong suit. My 2 cents...



#41 LizzyBee

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:22 PM

Hmm...I have hesitated to respond, but my son went through the entire Barton program and was still unable to spell. We took 4 years to go through it. It did definitely help with his reading, but spelling NOT! I am now using AAS with him. We are on level 3 and things are going well. Maybe it is because he has gone through Barton already and it is similar... I think the genious of the AAS program is in the review box. I always wondered why Barton didn't have some kind of review when it came to spelling rules, etc. My severely dyslexic son certainly needs a ton of review or he just forgets, and I think that was lacking with Barton. I have no regrets in using it because it did improve his reading tremendously, but I feel like spelling is not it's strong suit. My 2 cents...


We are keeping the spelling notebook as instructed in Barton, but I agree, it would be nice if the reminders to review were built into the instructions. When it tells us to add something to the notebook, I think, oh yeah, we should be reviewing this stuff.

I did find some fantastic games at www.moosematerials.com that we are using for review, and I plan to buy more of them as we progress through Barton. As someone else on the boards commented once, my dd's learning style is games.

#42 DawnM

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:26 PM

Those do look like fun games, but they are so pricey per game! Two sounds for $15?

GRRR.....

Dawn

We are keeping the spelling notebook as instructed in Barton, but I agree, it would be nice if the reminders to review were built into the instructions. When it tells us to add something to the notebook, I think, oh yeah, we should be reviewing this stuff.

I did find some fantastic games at www.moosematerials.com that we are using for review, and I plan to buy more of them as we progress through Barton. As someone else on the boards commented once, my dd's learning style is games.




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