Why is it so hard for some of us to pick and stick with a writing program?

[5LittleMonkeys]

I've had it up to here (picture me with my hand 3 feet above my head) with writing programs. I have researched, read, looked at samples, listened to lectures, until I'm blue in the face, trying to come across that magic program that will walk my dc through the process of writing without giving them writing prompts that make my skin crawl, writing in a forced artificial way, or making the process so long and drawn out that it becomes pure torture.

 

My older dc may or may not be behind in writing based on what standard your comparing them to. They aren't where I would like them to be, and I know it is all due to my indecision on what method\philosophy to stick with. I've bounced around so much this year I'm surprised they learned how to write a cohesive paragraph. Writing for school is not pleasant in our house right now. They do write for themselves willingly; mostly poetry and creative writing. The younger one has written reports on topics she finds interesting. Now, their pieces are not polished at all, they are a bit disorganized and the grammar and punctuation are all over the place. I don't mess with those though because they are theirs for their own enjoyment. It would be like making them correct the writing in their diary. :tongue_smilie:

 

I myself love to write. In school I could whip out a one page essay in about 15 minutes. I don't know how I did it, but it just flowed. I think because of the way my brain works, it was just naturally organized. I know how to organize a paper though and I know how to organize and construct a research paper...so why can't I light on a writing program and implement it? Every program I've tried has something I don't like about it or has something that I think is missing. WHY am I so picky? Doing one I don't like 100% would be better than doing none at all.

 

I am completely embarrassed that I am trying to implement so many writing programs right now. I like the philosophy of one but it is sooo convoluted to implement, one is step by step but I can't stand the writing prompts, I like the simplicity of another but it is too repetitive, and the logical sequence of skills of another is perfect, but I get panicked because it puts off essays until high school. Then there is the other one that I just printed out placement tests for....:lol::banghead::lol:

 

I know there are others out there who have been using the same writing curriculum for years and use it with all their dc; they never waiver. What is it they know that I don't. Is it experience in knowing that writing programs are like math programs, and if you stick with one long enough you will eventually have filled all the gaps and covered all of the skills? Is that it? If so how do you get past the things you don't like about the program? What's your secret?

 

To those out there like me...and I know you exist...why do you think we do this? Are you happy with juggling writing programs? Do you use more than one because you love more than one program or because you feel like you are trying to compensate for holes in skills or methods? Do you feel it has made your student a better writer or do you feel that their skills have been delayed because of it?

 

I thought I was okay with using all these different programs but realized in just the last couple of days that it is getting out of hand. Every time someone mentions a writing program they are having success with I immediately start looking at it wondering if I can implement some part of it.(where is the smiley with the straight jacket) I also started to wonder if it is even necessary or wise. Just give me your insight if you don't mind.

[Mommyfaithe]

My very short answer is....

 

 

 

We do not stick to writing programs because most of them stink.

 

Faithe

[Carol in Cal.]

You don't stick to writing programs because you are a teacher and a mother. As a teacher, you are able to use a variety of resources as they fit you best, and discard the rest. As a mother, you know your own children better than anyone else does, and you know what will work for them.

 

Thus you are a seasoned professional as well as a loving, capable parent, who has the discriminating taste and the experienced confidence to select your own strategies for this crucial endeavor.

 

That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.

 

And, no, I do not intend to list all the writing programs that I have piecemealed from. Why do you ask?:lol:

[Rhonda in TX]

I'm sticking with our choice because it works. It's taken my 5 years to figure this out, but if it works, it's the best thing for us. Now if I could just stick with a math program....

 

(Meant to add... You haven't stuck with one because you haven't found the right one.)

[Stacy in NJ]

It's the old situation: the perfect being the enemy of the good thing.

 

Try looking for a good (i.e. acceptable) program and just do it; stop looking for the ideal. When you spend so much time spinning your wheels you're not spending your time working your way patiently through a decent program, getting as much good stuff as possible. Remember KISS.

[Capt_Uhura]

 

I am completely embarrassed that I am trying to implement so many writing programs right now. I like the philosophy of one but it is sooo convoluted to implement, one is step by step but I can't stand the writing prompts, I like the simplicity of another but it is too repetitive, and the logical sequence of skills of another is perfect, but I get panicked because it puts off essays until high school. Then there is the other one that I just printed out placement tests for....:lol::banghead::lol:

 

To those out there like me...and I know you exist...why do you think we do this? Are you happy with juggling writing programs? Do you use more than one because you love more than one program or because you feel like you are trying to compensate for holes in skills or methods? Do you feel it has made your student a better writer or do you feel that their skills have been delayed because of it?

 

 

I would really be interested in reading more about the programs you mentioned above. If you don't want to name names :lol: you can PM me. I'm having the exact same issue. Also, it's really hard to get a feel for a writing program until it's in your hands. I currently have The Writer's Jungle (and have taken 4 Bravewriter classes), MCT Paragraph Town (and have borrowed a friends Essay Voyage), Pattern Based Writing, Igniting Your Writing I and II, borrowed a friend's Lost Tools of Writing, WWS beta tester, I also have a few misc ones .... the one based on a newspaper, Paragraph WRiting Made Easy.

 

I've looked at WriteShop a few times.

 

I've also bought a few reference books. Webster's Guide to Writing, Warriner's Comp and Grammar, The Lively Art of Writing.

 

Today I finally came to some sort of clarity. Some books are mixing more creative writing prompts with expository writing prompts. WTM is mostly expository writing in logic stage. MCT Essay Voyage is mostly expository writing with some descriptive passages thrown in. LToW is only persuasive writing for level 1 from what I can tell. Some books distinguish between the topic of a work and a thesis....a thesis being something defendable. Other books do not and call everything an essay. My head is just swimming in programs and what they really teach when they say "essay." So I think these differences are why we need so many writing programs. Maybe there is one program that would take you through all of them if you used it every year. Does IEW do this?

 

Then my teacher friend said that for 5th grade in our district students need to be able to write a 5 paragraph essay. So now I'm thinking....is that an essay with a thesis to defend or is it an essay with a topic paragraph?

 

AARGH I'm exhausted and am probably not making any sense.....

[5LittleMonkeys]

Remember KISS.

 

Well, I guess that is my problem...I don't know what KISS is, unless your talking about Gene Simmons. But I don't know how he would help with picking a writing program.:tongue_smilie:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

For me, it is a combination of only doing what I believe in and realizing that there is a certain amount of drudgery required from me to succeed at homeschooling my children through high school.

 

For K-8, I use Charlotte Mason methods because they do not annoy me. I use R&S grammar because I think kids should study grammar.

 

At some point during 6th to 7th grade I begin teaching SWB's methods of outlining and rewriting. I start with what we call a summary, which I learned from Robin Sampson's Heart of Wisdom book. (SWB calls this a level one outline.) We do a thousand of those before moving on to level two outlines and then we do a hundred level two's before moving on to level 3's. Then we are ready for high school.

 

At some point during 7th or 8th grade I also begin using Write Shop. It is tedious for me, but I think it is worthwhile for the boys and is the most similar to the way I learned in high school. I nearly dread it every day but I do see the growth I desire in my students.

 

That is my secret. I don't do anything tedious until high school, and then I set my jaw and do what the boys need instead of doing what I would have liked if I'd been homeschooled.

 

If you need a curriculum for K-8 the way I need one for grades 9-12, try to find something you can believe in and stop looking for the perfect program. Then set your jaw and just do it, every day.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Dulcimeramy
Edited for clarity, got quoted, so put back the long version. LOL

[Stacy in NJ]

:001_smile:

 

Well, I guess that is my problem...I don't know what KISS is, unless your talking about Gene Simmons. But I don't know how he would help with picking a writing program.:tongue_smilie:

[PeterPan]

My very short answer is....

 

 

 

We do not stick to writing programs because most of them stink.

 

Faithe

 

:iagree: I've pretty much given up. I'm going to have her write contextually and use good sources to guide me in improving the quality of her output. I recently spent an evening reading through posts on writing by WildIris and found quite a bit to chew on, highly recommend them to you.

[Stacy in NJ]

He's in 6th grade and has done writing ala TWTM (written narrations, outlines, summaries, dictation). His lit program teaches a bit of paragraph writing in response to a lit question (k12 program - lit portion only). That's all the writing he does; funny thing is, he does quite a bit of writing every day: outlining from history or science, writing a paragraph for lit, dictation with me. I see pretty steady progress in his abilites, so I'm happy. We won't do a more structured program until about 8th grade, and then I'll probably alternate Writeshop and TWTM Rhetoric recommendations and do a bit of my own thing for persuasive essays and research papers. And that's all we'll do.

 

For me, it is a combination of only doing what I believe in and realizing that there is a certain amount of drudgery required from me to succeed at homeschooling my children through high school.

 

For K-8, I use Charlotte Mason methods because they do not annoy me. I use R&S grammar because I think kids should study grammar.

 

At some point during 6th to 7th grade I begin teaching SWB's methods of outlining and rewriting. I start with what we call a summary, which I learned from Robin Sampson's Heart of Wisdom book. (SWB calls this a level one outline.) We do a thousand of those before moving on to level two outlines and then we do a hundred level two's before moving on to level 3's. Then we are ready for high school.

 

At some point during 7th or 8th grade I also begin using Write Shop. It is tedious for me, but I think it is worthwhile for the boys and is the most similar to the way I learned in high school. I nearly dread it every day but I do see the growth I desire in my students.

 

That is my secret. I don't do anything tedious until high school, and then I set my jaw and do what the boys need instead of doing what I would have liked if I'd been homeschooled.

 

If you need a curriculum for K-8 the way I need one for grades 9-12, try to find something you can believe in and stop looking for the perfect program. Then set your jaw and just do it, every day.

[TKDmom]

I think its because we hang out on these boards too much. I'd probably be better off not knowing all the great things other people are using.

 

And maybe it's because writing is a rather personal thing. With math, there is one right answer. But in writing...more things are left up to personal preference.

 

Oh, and I'd love to hear what you've been using. I'm in the market for a new writing program (or two or three). ;)

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

He's in 6th grade and has done writing ala TWTM (written narrations, outlines, summaries, dictation). His lit program teaches a bit of paragraph writing in response to a lit question (k12 program - lit portion only). That's all the writing he does; funny thing is, he does quite a bit of writing every day: outlining from history or science, writing a paragraph for lit, dictation with me. I see pretty steady progress in his abilites, so I'm happy. We won't do a more structured program until about 8th grade, and then I'll probably alternate Writeshop and TWTM Rhetoric recommendations and do a bit of my own thing for persuasive essays and research papers. And that's all we'll do.

 

I've been so surprised and delighted to find that these time-honored methods are simple and effective. I'm just grateful I never got on the writing curriculum merry-go-round (because I wore myself out on the math merry-go-round).

[Capt_Uhura]

Yes, narration, copywork, dictation, and now outlining has worked very well for us. But then it seems programs (lit programs, history programs) jump to writing paragraphs and I needed hand holding in paragraph structure as well as how to get that desired result out of a reluctant writer. Also, in K12HO students are expected to write essays. Again, I needed something that discussed good essay structure. How to formulate a strong introductory paragraph, how to develop a good thesis, in what order to put the supporting points. For some us, these things don't come naturally or we were never taught so we must look to curricula to teach us!

 

I bought Image Grammar upon the recommendation here. I read the chapter on painting w/ participles. Now I see that element in used in picture books and other books we're reading and I can point that out to my DC. We discuss what participles bring to the writing and I see DC incorporating that into his writing. I would never get that out of narration, dictation and outlining, sadly. I'm learning about writing right along w/ my DS! NOt optimal by any means but it's where I am at.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[elegantlion]

I'm like the OP. I can whip out a rough draft with little effort. Teachers loved me in school. We can't stick with a writing program.

 

Part of it is me, part of it is the way ds learns. He's stalled out in a few program because they moved too fast (he's a delayed reader, maybe some dyslexic issues), some focused on the same thing for too long. He gets grammar and thinks diagramming is fun, but he blanks out when trying to do an outline. He stares when I ask for original writing.

 

I've tried focused workbooks, intense programs, and more gentle ones. I'm not a curriculum hopper, but I know when something isn't working.

 

So, my current endeavor is this. We're taking two weeks to focus solely on writing. I've pulled all my half used programs, printed writing handbooks off the web, and designed we are going to go from the top down. Most of my other programs are still in storage otherwise we could have spent a month doing this. :lol:

 

We did an overview of the purpose of writing, studied the quality words in the Gettysburg address, discussed audience as we read a Shakespearean sonnet. We even wrote a redneck version together. We also discussed the connotation of words and how they affect a piece. Today we outlined an article in our state conservation magazine, discussed and worked with different types of paragraphs. We also worked with strong verbs, discussing the mood each synonym creates. This was day two. I have no idea how it will all turn out at the end of two weeks. I hope he understands the why of writing more (he's very much a why child) and that he gains some confidence in his own abilities.

 

After we get done I'm finishing up a few workbook type programs and moving into some more free downloads.

 

I'm not convinced any writing program is going to work with this child. I don't have the money to invest in expensive programs. Listening to SWB's lectures on writing freed me enough to feel I could at least try my own thing. I am trying to learn more about the overall process of teaching writing and have a few sources bookmarked for later.

 

I'm blogging about our experience is anyone is interested, it's on the Wakefield blog.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

I am completely embarrassed that I am trying to implement so many writing programs right now. I like the philosophy of one but it is sooo convoluted to implement,(Classical Writing Homer) one is step by step but I can't stand the writing prompts,(McGrawHill Composition) I like the simplicity of another but it is too repetitive(Killgallon), and the logical sequence of skills of another is perfect, but I get panicked because it puts off essays until high school(SWB's writing lectures). Then there is the other one that I just printed out placement tests for....(WWE...because I think maybe we are missing some basic skills):lol::banghead::lol: I was also seriously considering purchasing Pattern Based Writing.

 

 

 

Several were curious about what programs I was referring to. There they are in blue. I don't think any of them are bad, in fact I think they are all really good at what they teach and each serves a purpose. It really isn't the program it's me...all me.

 

Several of you mentioned writing TWTM way and I have to admit that when I first started homeschooling this was the completely logical way, in my mind, to do things. I loved how it disappeared into the day and was so completely painless. When I listened to the writing lectures by SWB it just reinforced my opinion that it all made perfect sense. In fact I re-listened to those lectures last night and started to wonder where it all went wrong.

 

I think perhaps I didn't go back far enough with the skill building (my girls came out of ps in 4th and 5th grade with no writing skills at all) and when writing outlines and summaries were hard and the dc complained, I thought that maybe this might not be the right approach for us after all. Then I started seeing posts about others logic stage dc writing essays and I started to panic. It just all snowballed I guess.

 

You all are right...I really need to stop clicking on posts about writing, pick a program and KISS!

[calandalsmom]

I think that is the problem on this site in general, not just with writing. People are always looking for the next great thing which will revolutionize their homeschool. Its the Hive Mind at work, Im guessing.

 

For me I prefer to stick with what works well enough and here that meant watching TWSS and learning how to mentor my kids thru the process. I think many of the programs out there would work if consistently employed.

[Capt_Uhura]

AH thanks!!!! I can certainly understand w/ your DC coming out of PS. My DS came home in 3rd grade. We did part of WWE1 but it was very easy so we moved into WWE2. We did WWE2/3 in a little over a year (3rd/4th grades) and now in 5th grade, he's in WWE4. We'll finish this up by the start of 6th grade working the summer. I know for many kids dictation doesn't work and copywork doesn't work and while I can't say w/out a doubt it worked for my kids b/c I don't have twins where I use WWE w/ one and not the other :lol:, I think copywork, narration, and dictation has made them the writers they are today. We really have done nothing else for writing until this year. I'm trying to finish up workbooks (Paragraph Writing Made Easy, Pattern Based Writing) and next year we'll be writing across the curriculum more ala WTM, finishing up MCT PT.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I think many of the programs out there would work if consistently employed.

 

I agree with this. The problem has been finding one I want to consistently employ.

 

I think copywork, narration, and dictation has made them the writers they are today.

 

See, I hear people say that all the time and that is exactly the route I'm taking with my younger dc. It's just hard when you have dc that have missed that grammar stage skill building work and you try to plunge them into the logic stage writing skills because you (me) feel that your running out of time. (I'll switch to first person here) I'm at a point now that I'm trying to find a program that will get them up to speed in writing...but I don't really know what speed they need to be at. Some programs say they need to be working on essays and some say they have a couple more years before that skill is crucial. I suppose I need to pick a camp, then fighting the battle won't seem so confusing.

[Capt_Uhura]

:iagree: it's very difficult starting in logic stage when DC didn't get those grammar stage skills in PS.

 

:iagree: about reading about needing to do essays in logic vs waiting a few years. I was all set to just focus on good strong paragraphs with varied sentence structure, good vocabulary etc. then I talk to my teacher friend and she tells me that in our district, 5th graders should be writing 5 paragraph essays with proper grammar and spelling by the end of the year. Then began my quest to find a resource to help me teach and model good 5 paragraph essays. Then I was using my beloved MCT Paragraph Town and it jumped from writing paragraphs to writing essays in one lesson. ACK!!!!! Mental breakdown!

[5LittleMonkeys]

I was all set to just focus on good strong paragraphs with varied sentence structure, good vocabulary etc. then I talk to my teacher friend and she tells me that in our district, 5th graders should be writing 5 paragraph essays with proper grammar and spelling by the end of the year. Then began my quest to find a resource to help me teach and model good 5 paragraph essays. Then I was using my beloved MCT Paragraph Town and it jumped from writing paragraphs to writing essays in one lesson. ACK!!!!! Mental breakdown!

 

I'm curious...if you don't mind my asking...is your decision to teach essays based on the fact that your dc might return to ps? I'm curious because that is the only reason I can think that I should get my dc into essays but that doesn't really hold water for me because them going to ps again isn't an option for us in the near future. So, really, there is no reason why mine should be writing essays right now, aside from the fact that they just aren't ready or able.

 

Would it be crazy of me to go back to TWTM grammar stage writing skills with them at this point (narration and dictation then moving onto outlines and summaries)? Start from scratch, so to speak, and move them forward as they show proficiency. This sounds very appealing at this point because as I mentioned before, through it all, in the back of my mind, this was the only process that seemed to truly make sense to me...if we had started at square one in the beginning we would be sitting pretty right now.:glare:

[Negin]

We do not stick to writing programs because most of them stink.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Well, I guess that is my problem...I don't know what KISS is, unless your talking about Gene Simmons. But I don't know how he would help with picking a writing program.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[missmoe]

I think it is because knowing how to write and knowing how to teach someone else to write are two different things.

 

Growing up I was always praised for my writing. Writing came naturally-I didn't really think about what made my writing acceptable. When it came time to teach writing, I didn't know where to start. I just knew what good writing looked like, but I didn't know how to get my student to that good writing.

 

That's why I went through so many writing programs at the beginning of my homeschooling journey. Working through these different programs taught me what to teach, what made writing good, and the steps needed to get there.

[PenKase]

Oh my, what a juicy post!!! Ah, the dreaded W word (more like WTF :lol::lol:).

 

First off, to the OP, I offer my sympathies and :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:.

 

As you can tell by the many responses, writing strikes a cord with many of us here. There is so much flip flopping and neck turning, I think I'll need an adjustment soon!

 

There have been many great things said so far, some to which I will be giving serious thought. I agree with the general consensus that there is no one right writing curricula, with a pretty little magic wand, turning our dc into stellar writers. What I do know is that when I first read and then listened the WTM writing methods and then to the SWB lectures, they made perfect sense to me (and why wouldn't they......she's a professional writer for Pete's sake!) and I wholeheartedly meant to implement them. THEN like a tsunami, the writing posts kept coming, and coming, and coming until they appeared like 30, 40, 50 ft. waves. I don't know anyone who could avoid that!!!! So, like many before me, my curiosity piqued and I too heard them beckoning, "pst, come here. Look at me. You know you wanna. I have something here that will fix all your writing problems and make them go away forever, Muahaaaaaaaaaa." (Ok, maybe it goes down like this only at my house, but it does happen just like this!!! :lol::lol: )

 

I too have fallen prey to the grass is greener syndrome and have skipped and jumped around so much only to find myself coming back to square 1; thinking that if I'd just stuck with what made sense and worked (for me that's WWE/SWB lectures) then we'd be further along than we are now. This is especially true here because my dc are fresh out of ps where writing instruction was a total joke. Despite this, both my girls show writing promise and one of my goals is to develop their skills as organically as possible without too much teeth pulling (no need to drag it out of them at this point, tooth and nail, right?).

 

At a student, young professional, and now mother/teacher, writing has been easy for me. My teachers/professors love me for this too. I could churn out a solid piece of writing (OFTEN the night before) with no problems. In trying to figure out how to help my dc develop solid writing skills I've given a lot of thought to the tangible reasons why I've had success. Undoubtedly, fluency in another language (Spanish is my mother tongue) has had a tremendous impact in my writing abilities. Does this make sense to any of you? Of course, I'm not suggesting that we all need fluency in another language to become fluent writers, but It's been interesting to come to this realization in myself and I will be prioritizing it in our homeschool. What this implies for me is that there are exterior factors (like learning a second [or more] language) that can heavily influence how our children develop as writers.

 

I think that yes, we could all use some time away from these boards (and save some pocket money too). We could use said time to reflect in real time how to effectively help our children in their studies. I know this works for me.

 

Wishing you all the best, OP, on your journey. I'd love to hear what course of action you decide to pursue.

Edited March 9, 2011 by PenKase

[Another Lynn]

I agree with this. The problem has been finding one I want to consistently employ.

 

 

 

See, I hear people say that all the time and that is exactly the route I'm taking with my younger dc. It's just hard when you have dc that have missed that grammar stage skill building work and you try to plunge them into the logic stage writing skills because you (me) feel that your running out of time. (I'll switch to first person here) I'm at a point now that I'm trying to find a program that will get them up to speed in writing...but I don't really know what speed they need to be at. Some programs say they need to be working on essays and some say they have a couple more years before that skill is crucial. I suppose I need to pick a camp, then fighting the battle won't seem so confusing.

 

:iagree: it's very difficult starting in logic stage when DC didn't get those grammar stage skills in PS.

 

:iagree: about reading about needing to do essays in logic vs waiting a few years. I was all set to just focus on good strong paragraphs with varied sentence structure, good vocabulary etc. then I talk to my teacher friend and she tells me that in our district, 5th graders should be writing 5 paragraph essays with proper grammar and spelling by the end of the year. Then began my quest to find a resource to help me teach and model good 5 paragraph essays. Then I was using my beloved MCT Paragraph Town and it jumped from writing paragraphs to writing essays in one lesson. ACK!!!!! Mental breakdown!

 

:iagree: I think I'm in a similar place, ladies! If it makes you feel better, my oldest wasn't in public school in 1st-4th... but he had ME as a teacher :lol:.

 

I wrote well in school - just like I tested well in school. But I was being given a topic to write from. Now that I'm supposed to come up with topics (or know how to lead him into a topic), I'm lost. I think this is where LTOW (I don't own it yet, but thinking about it!) would work on invention. LTOW also has me wondering if the reason I bounce around between different approaches is because I don't know whether to work on invention, arrangement, or elocution.

 

I will also confess that some of the posters here I admire either use a conglomerate of writing curricula (Leanna) or none at all (8fillstheheart).

 

So - no answers.... just more agreement with your/our plight!

[prairiegirl]

I think it is because knowing how to write and knowing how to teach someone else to write are two different things.

.

 

:iagree: This is my biggest problem in teaching my kids how to write. I don't know how to translate what I know in writing into my teaching and writing programs confuse me more than help me.

[Trish]

I don't ever remember learning to write in school. At some point we were given assignments involving writing of course, but we were just told to do it, not how to do it. The instruction consisted of the parameters for the assignment. I don't remember being taught how to outline, either, although there were teachers who DID outline notes on the chalkboard, that we were expected to copy into our notebooks. I guess that was how we learned to outline.

[Capt_Uhura]

I'm curious...if you don't mind my asking...is your decision to teach essays based on the fact that your dc might return to ps? I'm curious because that is the only reason I can think that I should get my dc into essays but that doesn't really hold water for me because them going to ps again isn't an option for us in the near future. So, really, there is no reason why mine should be writing essays right now, aside from the fact that they just aren't ready or able.

 

Would it be crazy of me to go back to TWTM grammar stage writing skills with them at this point (narration and dictation then moving onto outlines and summaries)? Start from scratch, so to speak, and move them forward as they show proficiency. This sounds very appealing at this point because as I mentioned before, through it all, in the back of my mind, this was the only process that seemed to truly make sense to me...if we had started at square one in the beginning we would be sitting pretty right now.:glare:

 

Yes, our original plans was for DS to go back to PS next year for 6th grade (middle school). NOw it's looking like he's not going back. He doesn't want to go.

 

I would start where your kids need to be. Keep in mind that they are older so they probably won't take as long as if they were the usual age for the program. And Bravewriter continues w/ dictation through logic stage so while working on copywork/dictation/narration, that doesn't mean you can't be also working on paragraph structure etc. If you feel they need it, I would give each of them the WWE end of the year assessments. Start w/ WWE1 assessment and move up until they are not successful. Then place each one in the appropriate level.

[Susie in CA]

You don't stick to writing programs because you are a teacher and a mother. As a teacher, you are able to use a variety of resources as they fit you best, and discard the rest. As a mother, you know your own children better than anyone else does, and you know what will work for them.

 

Thus you are a seasoned professional as well as a loving, capable parent, who has the discriminating taste and the experienced confidence to select your own strategies for this crucial endeavor.

 

That's my position, and I'm sticking to it.

 

And, no, I do not intend to list all the writing programs that I have piecemealed from. Why do you ask?:lol:

 

LOVE that!!!

[TCB]

Not sure whether a 5th grader should be writing a 5 paragraph essay or not, but that is certainly not the standard expected in the PS here (which is considered a pretty good PS).

From what I've read of the recent writing threads, there seems to be some variation in expectations for writing at this age. I would say building a good solid foundation would be best for any child, so I would be inclined to start however far back my dc needed.

My dh is teaching an English Comp class at the local community college and, almost without exception, none of his students can write a solid 5 paragraph essay. Not to say this is a good thing but maybe puts things in perspective a bit.

[Stacy in NJ]

In fact I agree with it not only with regards to writing but with most other things as well. :001_smile:

 

For me I prefer to stick with what works well enough and here that meant watching TWSS and learning how to mentor my kids thru the process. I think many of the programs out there would work if consistently employed.[/QUOTE]

[Momling]

I've been teaching writing to my 8 yr old daughter and her 10 yr old friend. I'd love to see a great writing program too, but I'm just not satisfied with what is out there. I've taught writing in middle school and community college and in ESL programs, so I'm not new to teaching writing, but... I feel like I have to cobble together something that works for my kids rather than having the luxury of a lovely open-and-go kind of curriculum.

 

What I don't like about a lot of the writing books intended for upper elementary is that they're top-down. Why have a well-organized essay if it's full of mechanical errors or simplistic sentences? I'd rather focus on small bits and build up to essays.

 

So this year, all we've been working on is spelling, mechanics, word usage and building complex sentences. I started off having them create syntax trees and use frames to label parts of speech and imitate words. I'm now using sections from Killgallon's sentence composing and some ESL and developmental writing stuff for adults. It is working - and I've noticed a definite improvement in their ability to create complex and interesting sentences.

 

When they're ready, I hope to bring their writing up to paragraph level. We'll probably focus on organization by working on traditional writing 'types' (descriptive, persuasive, etc...). I'll probably just use some old ESL Writing books like "First Steps in Academic Writing" and some stuff from the internet. I've also been looking at the EPS "paragraph book", though I wonder if it might be too easy / formulaic with the FTNF idea -- but I might start there and move on... Later on, only after they've really got beautiful sentences and organized paragraphs, will I introduce essays.

[missmoe]

I wanted to add to my midnight ramblings from last night. :001_smile:

 

When I look for a math program, I know what to look for. I can look at the scope and sequence, compare it with other S& S, look at where that will put my kid in X amount of years, and then make a decision. I want my child to take algebra in 8th grade then I need a program that covers these topics by this certain time.

 

It's hard to find a writing program that does the same. I need my child to be able to write essays worthy of a college level class by the time he finishes 12th-grade. Where's the program that takes my child from K through 12th grade that does that? And if I decide to switch programs part way through this school journey, where is the placement test that allows me to choose the appropriate level to make the switch?

 

And on top of that--what are the appropriate steps to reaching said writing goal? I know what skills are needed to reach a readiness to take algebra. And if I don't, I can easily look that info up. Look up what a grade level of writing is and you get a range of skills as large as Montana. And then there is the debate about what kind of writing we want to teach. Do kids need creative writing? Should we be focussing on only expository writing? Do we make kids learn how to write poetry? ect.

 

I think SWB's info on teaching writing spells out the steps for us. But I think many want more then that. They want a day by day curriculum. And they (me included for the first several years of homeschooling) want to see a good writer right away. I didn't understand that it is a step by step process. I remember when my oldest was in K, and I told him to make a sentence from his word cards. He refused to do it. I couldn't understand why he was defying me. Turns out he didn't know what a sentence was! (Which he calmly told me at a later point)

 

I think all these things have to do with why many skip from program to program or use multiple programs. Writing's hard! Finding a writing program that will work long term and cover all the bases is even harder!

 

Okay, that's my mid-morning ramblings on the subject. :tongue_smilie:

[Colleen in NS]

Several were curious about what programs I was referring to. There they are in blue. I don't think any of them are bad, in fact I think they are all really good at what they teach and each serves a purpose. It really isn't the program it's me...all me.

 

Well, you know, you could consider all these programs that you have to be your teacher-training - you are probably doing what Carol mentioned, and picking and choosing from each one, and trying to figure out how to meld it into your own thing for each of your kids. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I sort of do the same thing, on a smaller scale. I pretty much stick to WTM/WWE/SWB's lectures for my teaching-writing instruction, but I do have my R&S TMs (levels 3-10, yep!) all lined up on my shelf (because we use it for grammar anyway), and anytime I start to get confused about something or am wondering how to teach something or looking for a slightly different explanation on something (like rewriting from outlines), I go to them. I read what they have to say about the topic, and then reconcile it to what SWB/WTM is talking about. Then I can decide what to use and what to discard (book reports the R&S way? No thank you. I like WWE-style narration and the WTM-style lit. analysis much better.)

 

I'm trying to find a program that will get them up to speed in writing...but I don't really know what speed they need to be at. Some programs say they need to be working on essays and some say they have a couple more years before that skill is crucial. I suppose I need to pick a camp, then fighting the battle won't seem so confusing.

 

Yes, pick a camp, but really know *why* you are picking that camp (so, take your time to think it through carefully). Get it set in your mind about your decision on why they either need to be working on essays in grade 6 (or thereabouts), or why they can save working on essays until high school.

 

As for me, I'm pretty confident (I can't ever be TOTALLY confident!!) that saving the whole essay-writing business for high school is fine for us. So far, the advice from WTM/SWB/WWE has proven to be true for us as I work to implement it, so that's why I keep going in that direction. I also have all the rhetoric writing recommendations (and my trusty R&S TMs that I cross-reference), and when I really think about the study methods of these books that WTM recommends, I can see how learning this stuff in high school after a firm foundation in getting words on paper, outlining, and writing from outlines is good preparation for it.

 

I also keep in mind something that SWB told us at the WTM conf. in 2009 (where the writing lectures were recorded) - she said that even if your high schooler only ever gets to being able to outline a passage and rewriting from that outline, it would be much farther along than many of her college freshman are, and that she (in her professor mode) could take such a prepared student and teach him/her to write essays. Of course I will try to teach essays myself when my kids are in high school, but her saying that was really helpful, because of what her experience and background are.

 

Would it be crazy of me to go back to TWTM grammar stage writing skills with them at this point (narration and dictation then moving onto outlines and summaries)? Start from scratch, so to speak, and move them forward as they show proficiency.

 

No, that's not crazy, that is perfectly sensible! When WWE first came out, there were many posts by Moms of 6th, 7th, and even 8th graders who were being taken through WWE. I took my then-5th grader through parts of it. It's a zillion times easier to do outlines/rewrites and then essays, if they know how to put thoughts into words and words onto paper. Why struggle through teaching outlining, when you could be easing them through narrations and dictations which will make outlining easier when they are ready?

 

Yes, think about which camp you want to fight for, and then do it. :D

[EKS]

I'm guessing it's at least partly because we are wanting the curriculum to do the teaching for us and writing can't really be taught by curriculum alone.

[TCB]

I sometimes wonder if teaching essay writing is like some other areas. You can either spend a lot of time and energy teaching them when they are younger (not necessarily a bad thing), or you can gently nudge them in the right direction when they are younger and teach them much more quickly when they are older. It depends on the child's temperament (and the teacher's :)) which works out best for each individual.

[Capt_Uhura]

He's in 6th grade and has done writing ala TWTM (written narrations, outlines, summaries, dictation). His lit program teaches a bit of paragraph writing in response to a lit question (k12 program - lit portion only). That's all the writing he does; funny thing is, he does quite a bit of writing every day: outlining from history or science, writing a paragraph for lit, dictation with me. I see pretty steady progress in his abilites, so I'm happy. We won't do a more structured program until about 8th grade, and then I'll probably alternate Writeshop and TWTM Rhetoric recommendations and do a bit of my own thing for persuasive essays and research papers. And that's all we'll do.

 

But doesn't SWB recommend a writing program for Logic Stage? I seem to recall a recommendation for R&S or WRiting Strands. This was in addition to narration, dictation, outlining, etc.

[Stacy in NJ]

Yes, she does. She recommends Writing Strands, IEW, or the writing exercises in Rod & Staff beginning in 3rd grade (via the 2nd edition of WTM).

[5LittleMonkeys]

I had to go out today so haven't gotten around to reading all the responses but I'm back and going to read through carefully. I'll post back in a bit with my thoughts. Thanks for all the responses!

[Colleen in NS]

But doesn't SWB recommend a writing program for Logic Stage? I seem to recall a recommendation for R&S or WRiting Strands. This was in addition to narration, dictation, outlining, etc.

 

In WTM, yes; in the lectures, no. She talks about parental discretion in regards to adding a writing program to narration/dictation/outlining. It all depends on what the child needs or what the parent needs in order to teach.

[5LittleMonkeys]

What I do know is that when I first read and then listened the WTM writing methods and then to the SWB lectures, they made perfect sense to me (and why wouldn't they......she's a professional writer for Pete's sake!) and I wholeheartedly meant to implement them. THEN like a tsunami, the writing posts kept coming, and coming, and coming until they appeared like 30, 40, 50 ft. waves. I don't know anyone who could avoid that!!!! So, like many before me, my curiosity piqued and I too heard them beckoning, "pst, come here. Look at me. You know you wanna. I have something here that will fix all your writing problems and make them go away forever, Muahaaaaaaaaaa." (Ok, maybe it goes down like this only at my house, but it does happen just like this!!! :lol::lol: ) Oh, my goodness...this is so exactly how it happened with me. :lol: I'd love to hear what course of action you decide to pursue. Yes, I can't wait to hear what it will be too! The anticipation is killing me.

 

So this year, all we've been working on is spelling, mechanics, word usage and building complex sentences. I started off having them create syntax trees and use frames to label parts of speech and imitate words. I'm now using sections from Killgallon's sentence composing and some ESL and developmental writing stuff for adults. It is working - and I've noticed a definite improvement in their ability to create complex and interesting sentences.

 

When they're ready, I hope to bring their writing up to paragraph level. We'll probably focus on organization by working on traditional writing 'types' (descriptive, persuasive, etc...). I'll probably just use some old ESL Writing books like "First Steps in Academic Writing" and some stuff from the internet. I've also been looking at the EPS "paragraph book", though I wonder if it might be too easy / formulaic with the FTNF idea -- but I might start there and move on... Later on, only after they've really got beautiful sentences and organized paragraphs, will I introduce essays.This sounds like a perfect plan to me and this type of program is what has been on my mind the last few days. I'm just realizing through everyone's wisdom here that I'm not going to find exactly this in one program.

 

[quote name=missmoe;2504497

I think SWB's info on teaching writing spells out the steps for us. But I think many want more then that. They want a day by day curriculum. And they (me included for the first several years of homeschooling) want to see a good writer right away. I think this is definitely one of my biggest problems. I'm wanting to see more immediate results; I'm to impatient. I need to be more aware of what is occurring when my dc do write though. Here I am wanting them to write an essay and they still have trouble writing a really good solid sentence.

 

Yes' date=' pick a camp, but really know *why* you are picking that camp (so, take your time to think it through carefully). Get it set in your mind about your decision on why they either need to be working on essays in grade 6 (or thereabouts), or why they can save working on essays until high school.Did I mention that I'm impatient.:tongue_smilie:This is a flaw I need to work on because it doesn't work too well for me when homeschooling.

 

I also keep in mind something that SWB told us at the WTM conf. in 2009 (where the writing lectures were recorded) - she said that even if your high schooler only ever gets to being able to outline a passage and rewriting from that outline, it would be much farther along than many of her college freshman are, and that she (in her professor mode) could take such a prepared student and teach him/her to write essays. Of course I will try to teach essays myself when my kids are in high school, but her saying that was really helpful, because of what her experience and background are.This does make me feel better too. I need to remember that I have longer to work on this than I think I do. I, for some reason, have this idea in my head that they need to have this essay business down pat when they start highschool. I see so many high school curricula that require various forms of essays, research topics, papers, etc. and I get panicked.

 

 

I'm guessing it's at least partly because we are wanting the curriculum to do the teaching for us and writing can't really be taught by curriculum alone. Are you saying I'm being lazy?:tongue_smilie: Ha, Ha...your right, I am. I don't want to have to piece this together; it hurts my brain.

 

I'm feeling some type of cohesive plan forming in my mind. I'm not there yet though.

 

I know that the word essay has become like a dirty word in my mind. Being able to write an essay isn't the end goal I truly have in mind for my dc. I want them to feel comfortable enough with the written word that they can, if they choose, write about anything, in any situation. Whether it be a college paper, letter to the editor, blog entry, or heartfelt sentiment in a birthday card. I don't necessarily want them to write creatively if they don't want to, but I want their writing to be eloquent and flow easily.

 

In thinking back to how learned how to write, I realize that I started out with just a few skills. I had excellent grammar skills, new how to use a thesaurus, loved playing around with clauses and phrases, new about outlines (I used to outline everything in school...that's how I took notes) and graphic organizers, and I wrote...a lot. I'd write and re-write, and re-write again. Not just for school but for my own satisfaction. Do you know what else I did a lot of that I'm just now remembering? (No, of coarse you don't.) I kept a personal copybook of bits and pieces of poetry and sentences from books that I loved. I had completely forgotten about that!

 

So, now the question becomes how do I formulate that into a writing curriculum. It comes back to bits and pieces from one program or another, but it has to be kept simple or it won't get done. It can't feel forced or artificial and the writing has to have meaning (in context) or one of my dd won't want anything to do with it. It has to be logical, sequential and not feel goofy or silly (most writing prompts I've seen fall into these categories) or my other dd won't do it.

 

This is why it is so hard; it is so personal isn't it? It all has to start with basic skills though and I think we are needing some remediation with that.

 

Still thinking....

[Create Your Ritual]

I have appreciated reading this so much, as I feel very much in the same boat trying to figure out the way forward for my soon to be 5th grader. I also don't understand the method of going from writing outlines and basic paragraph stories, to then writing 5 paragraph essays. I began reading Lively Art of Writing today and what I am most aware of at this point is that dd9 is not ready to begin writing opinions and creating an essay around her opinion, vs fact vs others opinions. I too have been jumping all over the forum from post to post trying to figure out what the next step is! ;-) I see that the author of Pattern- Based Writing has posted asking for questions. I would be curious what he had to say about all of our questions, but I don't know how to link to this post in that one. ;-) I've been considering IEW SWI A only because I thought the DVDs might help.. but I also do a little MCT, a little Killgallon, a little WT1, a little WWE. It's like I am grabbing from a million different places hoping that somehow it will get dc to where they need to be. Or some perception of where I think others think they ought to be. Having just pulled them out of ps I know they were no where close to fulfilling their potential there .. but instead of spending all my time complaining about ps teachers these days, I just end up complaining and second guessing myself!:glare:

[ondreeuh]

I've also been looking at the EPS "paragraph book", though I wonder if it might be too easy / formulaic with the FTNF idea -- but I might start there and move on... Later on, only after they've really got beautiful sentences and organized paragraphs, will I introduce essays.

 

We are using EPS's "Writing Skills" and it build up from sentences to paragraphs, then to essays. My son could not write a coherent sentence so we started with book A, and we are now writing topic sentences and supporting sentences. It is simplistic, but you could raise the bar for your daughter & her friend and require that their sentences be more interesting.

 

I really like the approach to build the framework & structure of a sentence, then a paragraph, and then an essay, and THEN fill it out with great language and techniques. I've read enough essays that don't have a strong structure & flow - the underlying foundation has to be there in order for the essay to work.

[Heather in Neverland]

Here is some encouragement for you:

 

anecdote #1- I don't remember being taught how to write an actual essay- a 5 paragraph with an outline type essay- until 11th grade. We learned the process in a week.

 

anecdote #2- I taught High school English for 10 years. When working in inner city Detroit schools I was teachng students who could barely put a sentence together. Literally. And these were 11th graders. I was able to teach them not only how to write an essay but to write one well enough to pass the state test in about 6 months.

 

anecdote #3- I did not do any "formal" writing programs with my ds...just narrations, copywork, etc. from K-6th grade. In 7th grade he now attends a private school and has learned the 5 paragraph essay (and how to write one well) in about a semester.

 

anecdote #4- I work at an international school where better than 50% of the students are NOT native English speakers. They can speak English well enough to attend our school but writing essays in English is typically difficult for them. However, they learn the process well enough in a year to outscore the United States AND the international averages on the SAT and ACT writing tests.

 

The moral of the story is... read much and read widely, learn to spell, learn grammar, learn proper punctuation, read some more. When it comes time to "write an essay" the process can be taught and learned really quickly. I think we stress too much over what is actually a simple process.

[Poke Salad Annie]

The moral of the story is... read much and read widely, learn to spell, learn grammar, learn proper punctuation, read some more. When it comes time to "write an essay" the process can be taught and learned really quickly. I think we stress too much over what is actually a simple process.

 

:iagree:

[radiobrain]

Writing is so hard, as it goes across the whole HS experience. It can be frustrating when your kids don't (or won't) write well.

 

There are a gazillion forms of writing... stylistic and formal. I think that one issue is that many people who might write a curriculum won't be good at all types of writing, just one. Would a wonderful fiction writer be able to write a decent scientific paper? Most likely not. The converse is also true.

 

Personally, I have the wonderful problem of my kid's brains working at a higher level than their skills will allow. We all hate that they can't write at the level they think. I know that my goal for them is to be able to write decent essays by the time they are juniors. I could care less if they can write creatively, or write a book report. Right now though, I cringe daily.

 

One of the big problems is that we are adults, and it is hard to judge a kids writing; we don't have a class full of other kids to compare our kids to. Writing is a BIG idea, BIG skill set, yet it happens incrementally. In the school you just have to do it, and at home we tend to dislike the busywork. I do anyway. :D

 

So yes, I have several programs, books, downloads, lectures, CDs, etc. on how to teach my kids writing. I like bits and pieces of some of them. I still am an MCT devotee, but we had to stop partway through Essay Voyage to work on some basic skills. I have been doing Killgallon, but we do them orally, and I have them copy one or two out, NOT the whole page, and skip lessons I don't like. I might do a Bravewriter class this year, if I can afford it. Or not.

 

I am trying to just plug along, and remember that I still have a few years before I should panic, and by then, I should hope I can say "Hey, boneheads! This is the format, write a flippin' paper in 3 days. Let me know when you're finished, and can you bring me a glass of wine and those chocolates while you're at it?":D

[elegantlion]

Personally, I have the wonderful problem of my kid's brains working at a higher level than their skills will allow. We all hate that they can't write at the level they think. I know that my goal for them is to be able to write decent essays by the time they are juniors. I could care less if they can write creatively, or write a book report. Right now though, I cringe daily.

 

One of the big problems is that we are adults, and it is hard to judge a kids writing; we don't have a class full of other kids to compare our kids to. Writing is a BIG idea, BIG skill set, yet it happens incrementally. In the school you just have to do it, and at home we tend to dislike the busywork. I do anyway. :D

 

 

I am trying to just plug along, and remember that I still have a few years before I should panic, and by then, I should hope I can say "Hey, boneheads! This is the format, write a flippin' paper in 3 days. Let me know when you're finished, and can you bring me a glass of wine and those chocolates while you're at it?":D

 

:iagree:. I like the bold part especially. I've learned from simply reading in the writing sub-forum.

 

I used to live near an awesome thrift store. I found many college books on writing. A few were for freshman classes and may be ideal for high school.

 

I have another that was designed for remedial college work and we started going through that yesterday. We skipped ahead to the chapters on picking the right words and he claimed it was easy. That made me smile.

 

My goal for this spring and summer is to find books that explain the process of teaching writing, re listen to SWB's lectures, and pick out the process/philosophy that will work best for us. You know, just because I needed I another project.

 

Hopefully I can use what I already own.

[swimmermom3]

Writing is so hard, as it goes across the whole HS experience. It can be frustrating when your kids don't (or won't) write well.

 

There are a gazillion forms of writing... stylistic and formal. I think that one issue is that many people who might write a curriculum won't be good at all types of writing, just one. Would a wonderful fiction writer be able to write a decent scientific paper? Most likely not. The converse is also true.

 

Personally, I have the wonderful problem of my kid's brains working at a higher level than their skills will allow. We all hate that they can't write at the level they think. I know that my goal for them is to be able to write decent essays by the time they are juniors. I could care less if they can write creatively, or write a book report. Right now though, I cringe daily.

 

One of the big problems is that we are adults, and it is hard to judge a kids writing; we don't have a class full of other kids to compare our kids to. Writing is a BIG idea, BIG skill set, yet it happens incrementally. In the school you just have to do it, and at home we tend to dislike the busywork. I do anyway. :D

 

So yes, I have several programs, books, downloads, lectures, CDs, etc. on how to teach my kids writing. I like bits and pieces of some of them. I still am an MCT devotee, but we had to stop partway through Essay Voyage to work on some basic skills. I have been doing Killgallon, but we do them orally, and I have them copy one or two out, NOT the whole page, and skip lessons I don't like. I might do a Bravewriter class this year, if I can afford it. Or not.

 

I am trying to just plug along, and remember that I still have a few years before I should panic, and by then, I should hope I can say "Hey, boneheads! This is the format, write a flippin' paper in 3 days. Let me know when you're finished, and can you bring me a glass of wine and those chocolates while you're at it?":D

 

:lol:Yes, I too am living for that day.:D

 

While I would be happy with that wine and chocolate, what I really want is for a knowledgeable, competent teacher/writer to give me an outline of the progression of writing skill development so that I could plug my own ideas and tools into the mix but be assured that I wasn't missing anything and not asking The Imp to fly before he can crawl.

Edited March 10, 2011 by swimmermom3

[1Togo]

Lisa,

 

Trying to send a pm, but your box is full.

[FloridaLisa]

Once my dc were past oral and written narrations, I cast around for a few years trying to find something I liked. In the last few years, I've found a few things that I like well enough to use and tweak. If you are comfortable teaching how to write, then use something that will get your dc writing every week. Once words are on paper, you can work with them on the areas that are troubling them -- getting enough thoughts on paper, organization, transitions, word choice, etc.

 

Also, if you like the philosophy of CW, it's not as difficult to implement as it seems. :tongue_smilie: I've had it on my shelf for years and finally dove in this year. I really like it so far. And, again, my kids are writing every week which allows me to then work with them one on one.

 

HTH,

Lisa