16 year olds take on the Iliad =)

[CherylG]

This was a "book review" for an online class. It was supposed to be 5 paragraphs up to 400 words...he totally struggled with limiting it. I think the comprehension went out the window trying to fit into those tight parameters of a short plot/character summary, his opinion of the story and what the author was trying to accomplish.

I already have comments from his teacher but thought I would post it anyway for your enjoyment. :)The red question marks are from his teacher but my son sees things differently, too, so part of me wonders if there is something to his take on this...

 

Achilles' Ached for Authority

Most people have heard of the Iliad even if they have never read it; the Trojan horse story has been in many children’s books. It is written by the ingenious Homer and is one of the oldest stories recorded. This Greek mythological epic takes place in the country of Greece during the last weeks of a ten-year war between the Trojans and the Greeks, and involves both mortal and immortal beings. Notable characters in the Iliad are: the mighty warrior Achilles; the Greek King Agamemnon; King Menelaus of the Trojan Army and his kidnapped wife, Helen. Although the story mostly involves the war between the two armies; Homer focuses on the Achaean army and how competition and jealousy between the Achaean comrades develop. I think that Achilles’ power without authority prompted his anger and that anger was the cause for many of the unnecessary trials.

 

From the beginning, Achilles protested his situation and often found problems with the way he was treated by people around him; even the gods.[?] He wanted no adversity, only prosperity. However, Agamemnon was thinking about the whole army rather than one man’s ate. It seems like a seed of bitterness was in Achilles and that developed into a choking weed. Achilles disagreed with Agamemnon about how he should have free reign shortly before his anger was birthed.[?] Achilles had a quick temper and was not a person of high grace, tolerance or self-controlled decisions. Agamemnon said, "Achilles, valiant though you be, you shall not thus outwit me”; making it clear that Agamemnon was in charge.

 

Was Achilles’ anger and pride towards the gods the cause of Zeus’ ploys? This book questions the logic of Zeus.[?] As god of all gods, he aids the Trojans, but not the Achaeans. To reconcile, Zeus appoints the god Apollo and goddess Athena to support the Achaean army, even when they did not need it.[?] Zeus decided to call off the affliction of the god’s favor to allow impartial combat. [?]This is a reminder that even if we think we are mighty and competent there will be outside forces that can hinder or help.

 

My favorite moment is when the Greeks win the war and Achilles is cured from his anger. Instead of Achilles being feckless, he had changed into a more mature man, and a better equipped leader. “With that, Achilles placed the lock in his dear comrade’s hands and stirred in the men again a deep desire to grieve.” Achilles had changed, he cared about his men, and he influenced them like a good leader should.

Edited February 23, 2011 by CherylG
separating the paragraaphs

[Julie in MN]

Interesting details he brings up about Achilles prior to his big blow-up. The whole "proper following of authority" thing isn't something I see brought up a lot in Iliad studies. I mostly read studies of honor and glory, which is obviously an issue, but when I think about it, there's a major emphasis on authority in Greek mythology even if the poor person didn't know (gee, looked like a flower, but I guess it was a god, so I should have respected it?). Or maybe it's mostly authority in regard to to man vs. gods? But the authority of Agamemnon over Achilles is an interesting topic. Does your son think that Achilles became more submissive in the end?

 

Julie

[regentrude]

I have trouble with some of the factual statements in the essay: the Iliad takes place in Troy, not in Greece, and Menelaus was, of course, the king of Sparta not not "of the Trojan army".

 

As for the interpretation: I do not see why Agamemnon should have power of authority at all; he was not a supreme king over the other Greeks.

 

I do not understand what your son means by "My favorite moment is when the Greeks win the war and Achilles is cured from his anger." In the Iliad, they don't win the war at all.

 

[Julie in MN]

As for the interpretation: I do not see why Agamemnon should have power of authority at all; he was not a supreme king over the other Greeks.

 

Isn't Agamem. the authority in the war? The chief commander? That's how I've always interpreted it. I think that's how TTC lectures describe his role? (We're listening to those this month, but I could of course have projected my own views there & made a mistake.)

[Ravin]

The essay spoke (and made a good point about) Achilles having power without authority. He wasn't a king, and while he commanded his own men he answered to Menelaus, etc. His power lay in his fighting prowess and invulnerability; he was a demi-god, after all.

[Ester Maria]

I was truly vacillating as to whether to post this critique or no. In the end I opted to post it, though you might not like it and might not agree with it.

Most people have heard of the Iliad even if they have never read it;

If you start a post on message boards this way, it's fine.

It is, however, to be avoided to start essays by appeals to loci communi and "most people X", "most people Y", "it is generally known that...". Not only there is an actual problem with factual truth of such statements, it's also a demagogic means.

It is written by the ingenious Homer and is one of the oldest stories recorded.

I would fail the essay on the gounds of this sentence alone - twice, as it demonstrates a remarkable, fundamental lack of understanding of what has been read.

 

Once, for a completely uncritical approach to the Homeric question, to a point of taking the authorship for granted and even attributing it as "ingenious".

The second time, for implying the fundamental literacy of the Homeric epics, while they in fact belong to a fundamentally oral culture, in spite of them having ended up written at some point, with a more or less definite authorship or not. The oral background of the Homeric epics is blatant from the text, even in translation, and misunderstanding such a text to the point of equating it with texts from the period of definite authorship and fixed text (such as Greek theatre, which started its "institution" that way) is a serious mistake and demonstrates that the student has understood the material only on the level of plot, but not on the level of structure. High school period is the time to switch from plot-understanding to structure-understanding; a supposedly innocent statement like this, if not right away expanded on significantly to "excuse" such formulations, betrays a lot of misunderstanding.

This Greek mythological epic takes place in the country of Greece during the last weeks of a ten-year war between the Trojans and the Greeks, and involves both mortal and immortal beings.

A high school level requires a more sensible understanding of the concept of Greece: what is its geographic and cultural definition nowadays, and how did it change with time? The fundamental opposition in Iliad is between a Greek and a "non-Greek" element, but the place belongs to the latter side of the opposition even if it might have occurred on what would be considered geographic "Greece" today... The devil's in the details. ;)

Notable characters in the Iliad are: the mighty warrior Achilles; the Greek King Agamemnon; King Menelaus of the Trojan Army and his kidnapped wife, Helen.

He messed up a whole lot of stuff in this sentence.

First of all, what does "notable characters" mean? Absolutely nothing; if he's talking about characters, he needs to talk about a structural divide between them (Greeks vs. Trojans, who is on which side, who is conflicted with whom and why, etc.), rather than anecdotal pieces with some more demagogy ("mighty warrior"), ambiguity ("his kindhapped wife" - whose wife kindapped by whom?) and factual problems (check up who Menelaus was again).

 

At this point, honestly, I would normally stop reading - even for a high school essay after first reading and even for a non-in-depth reading, there is just too much confusion.

I think that Achilles’ power without authority prompted his anger and that anger was the cause for many of the unnecessary trials.

An instance of unnecessary "psychologizing". Achilles' anger is more complex than that.

Achilles had a quick temper and was not a person of high grace, tolerance or self-controlled decisions.

And more fundamental misunderstanding of the work. What do you mean, "a person of high grace"? You are applying the language of a completely different cultural context to a work which just doesn't function in those matrices! He doesn't even approach understanding the work on its own cultural terms, but reads it through very problematic lenses.

What's tolerance? Whence it stems from?

Self-control? What's the issue of fate in Greek culture, and on the formation of what's a "character"? Whence his temper stems from in the first place?

This book questions the logic of Zeus.[?]

It doesn't. It doesn't even purposely question anything, strictly speaking.

This is a reminder that even if we think we are mighty and competent there will be outside forces that can hinder or help.

Applying "Christianity" (as a cultural matrix) to antiquity. It doesn't work that way. Fatality is a whole different concept.

My favorite moment is when the Greeks win the war and Achilles is cured from his anger. Instead of Achilles being feckless, he had changed into a more mature man, and a better equipped leader. “With that, Achilles placed the lock in his dear comrade’s hands and stirred in the men again a deep desire to grieve.” Achilles had changed, he cared about his men, and he influenced them like a good leader should.

A "moralizing" reduction which totally misses the point, and again applies a completely foreign cultural mindset.

 

There are a few others issues which might be addressed, but they're minor - these are the big problems with his essay. The comprehension, you're right, totally went out of the window for the sake of satisfying the form. I hope he does better next time. :)

Edited February 24, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Julie in MN]

Oh, Cheryl, you have some great teaching points from Ester Maria. I'm sure her in-depth analysis will really help you go over this with your son. I am glad to have the wisdom for teaching my own son. But I just want to say that I would never share all of them with him, nor give an F for this paper in high school. So now you have two opposite views.

 

First of all, it's high high school and not college.

 

Second, some translations of Homer *are* in narrative paragraphs and do not appear to be in verse or ballad form, and even if they are translated into more poetic style verse they don't "sound" like poetry, so if the course isn't specifically teaching about ancient oral storytelling, then I think a quick aside to the student would solve the whole problem there.

 

And third, I do think that applying one's own opinions and current cultural interpretations to a piece of literature is the direction he wants to go. I don't think it's a "book report," restating the Iliad and encyclopedic facts about it, but a "book review" giving an opinion *today.* Granted, it's a 16 yo kid's interpretation, but that's the direction I would want my student to start heading.

 

 

Oh, and yes, the thing about "Greece" and the misplaced "Menalaus" should probably be corrected, but my 15yods isn't keeping everything straight in Homer, either. I'd love to meet Ester Maria's wise students. I long for such students. I have had 2 sons and known tons of their friends plus I work at a tutoring center with many others (largely from India, China, and Somalia), and alas I have no especially wise 16 yo students. Most boys of this age are barely getting past simple plot and are only just stepping out into understanding of what others are trying to say about literature and making their own tentative first interpretations.

 

Julie

[Ester Maria]

First of all, it's high high school and not college.

Julie, if you allow, I wouldn't agree with the implication that I basically applied college criteria to a high school piece of writing. :) There is a neat difference between the two and I respect it. I do not pretend that a high school essay meet the standards of the type of writing which is by default a more sophisticated approach.

 

My problems with this essay are primarily:

(i) It's not factually correct.

(ii) It doesn't distinguish neatly what type of literature the Homeric epics are and what's the whole issue with the authorship. He wouldn't have to distinguish it if those points weren't brought up, but you have to know to deal with what you have brought up.

 

The other remarks are the kind of remarks I would give to a student who is aiming for a higher grade - those are the type of remarks that would be needed if somebody shot for a C or a B. But I cannot promote (i.e. let pass)a student who doesn't meet the basics requirements. If there is much factual confusion and the confusion on the authorship and type of writing, it just doesn't meet the basics. Regardless of the effort put in to connect to the work from a modern perspective or to satisfy the norm of the form the writing takes place in - the little "box" he has to adapt his writing to - it just cannot pass, it would be intellectually dishonest on my part. There are mistakes, and there are mistakes - what I'm failing him on is basically middle school stuff: comprehension of basic plot, comprehension of genre, a bit of elaboration on the authorship problem if you decide to bring it up. I really am talking basics here.

Second, some translations of Homer *are* in narrative paragraphs and do not appear to be in verse or ballad form, and even if they are translated into more poetic style verse they don't "sound" like poetry, so if the course isn't specifically teaching about ancient oral storytelling, then I think a quick aside to the student would solve the whole problem there.

First of all, the orality of Homeric epics is not exclusively in the use of meter and thus in its "rhytm". It's also, for example, in a repetitive matrices of certain linguistic constructions (fixed attributes and expressions which get "inserted" all the time). It's also in mutual contraditions in the work which seem to point to a "patchwork" nature of much of the epic. In the "division" of the work. And so on.

The fact that it's a verse doesn't make it a part of a distinct oral culture - tragedy is a verse too, yet it definitely belongs to an epoch of a fixed text. Virgil is a verse too, in fact the kind of verse which purposefully imitates the style of Homeric epics, but there is still a significant difference. Even reading the book in a narrative translation (which I would normally oppose in high school, but okay, let's give the benefit of the doubt here) doesn't "excuse" it. The orality is one of the key elements in the reading of the Homeric epics, as one has to take the structure into account on this level.

And third, I do think that applying one's own opinions and current cultural interpretations to a piece of literature is the direction he wants to go. I don't think it's a "book report," restating the Iliad and encyclopedic facts about it, but a "book review" giving an opinion *today.*

A book review doesn't have the freedom to claim whatever it wants - especially on a factual level - while it may allow for more subjectivity than a more "dry" report.

 

And regarding his opinions... This is actually a typical example of the forcing of "high order thinking skills" before the student is ready for that. Granted, there are many Western "scholars" today whose feel for nuances isn't much better than this 16yo's (and that's a whole new topic), but this is on the level of reading tragedy as a fairy tale (you know, the whole "good" and "evil" things, "tragedy is a tragedy because somebody dies", etc. - a misunderstanding of some very basic conceptual "nuances"), structurally. It just cannot pass. I really am glad to see that he connects, obviously, in some way to the work, and I'm certainly not downplaying the ability to somehow connect to a 3-millenia old work on the part of a 16yo (!), to make it somehow relevant to him, but... But you cannot grade papers based on personal connection and the ability to read one's own context into the work. Not in high school, at least. Some amount of understanding of what has been read, as a form, is required here - and I'm definitely not talking about college level sophistication.

 

Take a look at Regentrude's daughter's essay on the comparison of Odyssey and Aeneid, on this board. That's an exemplary good writing for a high school level; maybe even "too" exemplary in her case as it's several grades above the girl's age, but in that it should roughly correspond to the grade level discussed here: look very closely at what's done there - no factual confusion, no structural confusion, recognizing and relating to isolated moments, yet being able to set them in the context of each work. Refraining from demagogy, "moralizing", entering in too much subjectivity. Well-connected, satisfies the form. And it totally satisfies my high school criteria - in fact, I not only consider it passable, but a good writing.

 

Now, if she were my student in college, I could ask her to rethink some aspects of that essay, even if it would still pass. I could ask her to textually back up her claims, position the travels in the context of the nostoi and relate them to it (i.e. to relate them to their own cultural context), to rethink the relation between this and that paragraph, consider removing an odd remark which doesn't "fit" the scope of her essay or removing an odd repetition. Really, if I wanted to nitpick her writing, and pretended she was 19 rather than 13 or 16, I could find a thing or two to "fix", as well as ask her to extend the form. But that's college level. That's how you treat people who are majoring in literature - as opposed to how you treat people who are taking a general education class in high school. I really don't think I'm applying college criteria here, I'm just not one of those "anything goes as long as they've 'connected' to the work" professors and I thought it would still be valuable to share such a perspective (though I vacillated exactly because of this), just to point to different possible ways to take a look at it. :)

 

It's not even the issue of maturity, in my opinion. The maturity - a certrain sophistication, understanding some finer points - is what we talk for an A. For a passing grade, we talk coherence, facts and not too many logical "slips". With regards to Homeric question and orality, though, those are the things I would assume were explicitly taught, rather than having to be recognized in the work without any hint about it from a professor. In fact, I would consider any teaching that didn't bring that up an inadequate teaching.

 

Really - it's not my intention to turn this into an elaborate discussion, but I had to reply to an implication that my criteria are, somehow, so high that none but the very exceptional students can satisfy them as they basically correspond to a college level. They really aren't such. :)

Edited February 25, 2011 by Ester Maria

[CherylG]

Good thing this is my third child and that he has already taken the SATs and scored past high school on the writing portion--with comments like most of these--I might be tempted to throw in the towel!! :confused:

 

Like I said in the original post. It was for your enjoyment...the title says it all...A 16 year olds take on the Iliad.

Thank you for those that did see my point. I am sorry that I posted this-I have asked the webmaster to remove it.

[FloridaLisa]

:grouphug:

 

Sorry about that Cheryl. I do think one response was uneccesarily harsh. I had written a response and then deleted b/c I had no intention of starting any further back and forth comments.

 

It takes courage to post your dc's work on this new sub-forum. I do hope there is no chilling effect for others teaching writing at home and looking for helpful feedback and not hurtful comments.

 

Lisa

[NCMom]

Good thing this is my third child and that he has already taken the SATs and scored past high school on the writing portion--with comments like most of these--I might be tempted to throw in the towel!! :confused:

 

Like I said in the original post. It was for your enjoyment...the title says it all...A 16 year olds take on the Iliad.

Thank you for those that did see my point. I am sorry that I posted this-I have asked the webmaster to remove it.

 

I'm sorry you felt attacked. :grouphug:

 

If it was me I would actually be happy to see comments on areas that could be improved. I thought the point of the board was to get feedback? But man I absolutely know how HARD it is to see stuff like that in writing!

 

I would be more concerned over the content of the class and the teacher, than the child's writing 'cause what he got out of it does not seem much like what my dd got out of the Iliad this year, iykwim.

 

But take heart! You have given me the courage to post my dd's awful writing to get it critiqued. She a math and science gal so it's pretty wretched. ;)

 

Georgia

[Brindee]

:grouphug:

 

Sorry about that Cheryl. I do think one response was uneccesarily harsh. I had written a response and then deleted b/c I had no intention of starting any further back and forth comments.

 

It takes courage to post your dc's work on this new sub-forum. I do hope there is no chilling effect for others teaching writing at home and looking for helpful feedback and not hurtful comments.

 

Lisa

:iagree: Since I've struggled with writing, I'll admit I haven't been the best teacher in this area. I thought this might be a good place to post an essay that my dd has written. However, I would NEVER subject my dd to something like this! If she's trying her best yet still struggling to grasp concepts she doesn't even understand yet, do I give her an F for not undertanding every literary detail? People are at their own place! To put down people's work as "junior high level" and basic,and to use words that I've never even heard of to describe the reasoning behind it, I don't believe was the reason for this area!

 

I've been effectively scared away! Especially since I just revealed how ignorant I am!!! :glare:

[Melanie]

I thought Ester Maria's critique was incredibly helpful. I would have been so grateful if any of my teachers had given me such detailed feedback on my writing!

[Ester Maria]

looking for helpful feedback and not hurtful comments.

This was probably aimed at me. :glare:

 

I have no idea why people are taking these comments so personally - I am speaking exclusively from a professional standpoint as my academic formation is exactly in this field, language / literature (albeit studied in another language and academic tradition). I have experience with teaching, grading and correcting written work at lycee and university level. A number of people have paid me to tear their papers apart, figuratively speaking, over the last two decades - and my own daughters receive that type of extensive, elaborated, high quality feedback all the time for their writings. How else are they supposed to learn?

 

I was delighted to see a section in which we can comment on our DC's writing and provide feedback for each other - unfortunately, I did not notice soon enough that a tacit "prerequisite" was that you have to actually praise the writings above all and, if you do add a suggestion, that it has to be tempered with two other positive comments. What's the point of the section then, if criticism - especially elaborated one - is actually highly undesired and comes across as "hurtful" (I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that one, as I don't quite understand where emotions even enter if we're talking "strictly business" and not personally)? :confused: We can just spare ourselves the trouble to post at all, if we aren't interested in what other (God forbid qualified) people have to say.

 

Disappointing, truly.

Take what you can to "profit" from what others have to say and disregard the rest which you think does not apply at this moment to your DC - why is it s hard? How else are you supposed to get an insight in what other people think?

Edited March 3, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Ester Maria]

However, I would NEVER subject my dd to something like this!

Specify in the OP that you are not interested in my opinion (literally, write: Everyone is invited to comment, except for Ester Maria, please.) and don't worry - I won't bother to respond. Nor will I take it personally. Deal? :)

Edited March 3, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Ester Maria]

I thought Ester Maria's critique was incredibly helpful. I would have been so grateful if any of my teachers had given me such detailed feedback on my writing!

Thank you.

Should you wish my help in this area, please feel free to PM me any time.

[Sevilla]

One thing that stood out to me was mechanical errors, especially in punctuation.

 

Also, I will repeat this again: What is written in this forum IMO should NOT be shared directly with the student! Instead, it is a tool for the parent to filter and evaluate what areas they can target for improvement in their child's writing. When you get a direct and detailed critique, pick 1-2 elements of that critique to work off of for the future.

 

Good writing is rare in our society and honing it as a skill is invaluable. Also, we should keep the end goal in sight. If you have a college-bound student, their writing should be aspiring to college level work and seeing that 'end goal' helps you to make your steps of improvement along the way. That is what I believe EM is saying - here is the standard in a high level college class, how can you grow to move closer to that standard?

 

She's not saying that your high schooler should be failed and told he is a wretched, despicable writer. Instead, it's a tool for you to see the direction he needs to go in order to grow to be a more accomplished writer than he is now (and he seems to have a decent foundation to grow on!).

[NCMom]

:iagree: However, I would NEVER subject my dd to something like this!

I've been effectively scared away! Especially since I just revealed how ignorant I am!!! :glare:

 

I would never share the critique with the child! I figured it's for me, so I can help the child get there. I do not want the child to get to college and have to hear it there, alone, with not a clue what's coming, kwim?

 

And I always figure if I know I need help then I can't be totally ignorant. Maybe??? lol :001_smile:

 

 

Georgia

[newbie]

I must have missed she was asking for critiques, I think opinion and critique are two different things.

 

If I ask for someone to look over and critique, that is what I am expecting, but to casually mention something, which is what this was, is just light opinions and a lil mom support.

 

Please, no grammar corrections on my post, or critiques for that matter.:D

[Brindee]

Specify in the OP that you are not interested in my opinion (literally, write: Everyone is invited to comment, except for Ester Maria, please.) and don't worry - I won't bother to respond. Nor will I take it personally. Deal? :)

Sounds like a deal! :001_smile:

 

Really, though, I understand your academic background, and, honestly, I'd LOVE to have the in depth knowledge of this subject that you do! But I don't. And my dd doesn't. We're working with what we know and can do. But that comes nowhere NEAR to what your comments suggested we should know at this level. We're not writers. If I had the $$, maybe I'd send my dd to you to work with, as I wouldn't know where to begin. But ONLY if you could take her from where she's at and help guide her to where she could be! :001_smile:

 

I mean, really, is that possible? I don't expect to only be agreed with and praised at all! However, if I preface it with the facts that I mentioned about us earlier, could we get a gentler critique that would guide us toward the ideal, instead of failing us for not being there yet?

[newbie]

Sounds like a deal! :001_smile:

 

Really, though, I understand your academic background, and, honestly, I'd LOVE to have the in depth knowledge of this subject that you do! But I don't. And my dd doesn't. We're working with what we know and can do. But that comes nowhere NEAR to what your comments suggested we should know at this level. We're not writers. If I had the $$, maybe I'd send my dd to you to work with, as I wouldn't know where to begin. But ONLY if you could take her from where she's at and help guide her to where she could be! :001_smile:

 

I mean, really, is that possible? I don't expect to only be agreed with and praised at all! However, if I preface it with the facts that I mentioned about us earlier, could we get a gentler critique that would guide us toward the ideal, instead of failing us for not being there yet?

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Brindee]

I would never share the critique with the child! I figured it's for me, so I can help the child get there. I do not want the child to get to college and have to hear it there, alone, with not a clue what's coming, kwim?

 

And I always figure if I know I need help then I can't be totally ignorant. Maybe??? lol :001_smile:

 

 

Georgia

True, sharing the critiques probably would be better just for me.

 

Hey, that's true too! If I ask for help, then I know I need help, so I'm not completely ignorant! Yay, I've made progress already! :D

[Amy in TX]

If it was me I would actually be happy to see comments on areas that could be improved. I thought the point of the board was to get feedback? But man I absolutely know how HARD it is to see stuff like that in writing!

 

 

:iagree:

 

I agree that a tough critique from a professional in the field is incredibly helpful, and one must have a bit of a rhino skin to address one's (or one's child's) weak areas. The negative comments others posted on my dd's essay (in another thread) were exactly what she needed to hear. She's going to rework it this weekend, using the suggestions posted.

 

I also believe that a little tact goes a long way in all areas of life, and if there is anything to genuinely praise, that is also incredibly helpful.

Edited March 3, 2011 by Amy in TX

[Brindee]

One thing that stood out to me was mechanical errors, especially in punctuation.

 

Also, I will repeat this again: What is written in this forum IMO should NOT be shared directly with the student! Instead, it is a tool for the parent to filter and evaluate what areas they can target for improvement in their child's writing. When you get a direct and detailed critique, pick 1-2 elements of that critique to work off of for the future.

 

Good writing is rare in our society and honing it as a skill is invaluable. Also, we should keep the end goal in sight. If you have a college-bound student, their writing should be aspiring to college level work and seeing that 'end goal' helps you to make your steps of improvement along the way. That is what I believe EM is saying - here is the standard in a high level college class, how can you grow to move closer to that standard?

 

She's not saying that your high schooler should be failed and told he is a wretched, despicable writer. Instead, it's a tool for you to see the direction he needs to go in order to grow to be a more accomplished writer than he is now (and he seems to have a decent foundation to grow on!).

I see where she's coming from and I see where you're coming from. However, she DID say she'd fail him, and how poorly it was written.....which came across the opposite of what you said (and I highlighted) above! To me it came across as rather strong for those who haven't grown up living and breathing literature analysis!

[Ester Maria]

If I had the $$, maybe I'd send my dd to you to work with, as I wouldn't know where to begin. But ONLY if you could take her from where she's at and help guide her to where she could be!

I'll do it for free. Even privately, if you wish, via PM.

However, if I preface it with the facts that I mentioned about us earlier, could we get a gentler critique that would guide us toward the ideal, instead of failing us for not being there yet?

I can be gentle in the sense that I'm not comprehensive. That is, I can focus on one thing at the time, but while doing so, disregarding other things, with concrete examples of how to go about changing what has to be changed. I can also add in smilies, so you don't misunderstand the tone (i.e. where I'm smiling and being gentle, that you don't read it as though I was sighing and eye rolling). Would that be gentle enough?

 

I can't help with the language though, only structure and content. ESL. :D

[newbie]

I'll do it for free. Even privately, if you wish, via PM.

 

I can be gentle in the sense that I'm not comprehensive. That is, I can focus on one thing at the time, but while doing so, disregarding other things, with concrete examples of how to go about changing what has to be changed. I can also add in smilies, so you don't misunderstand the tone (i.e. where I'm smiling and being gentle, that you don't read it as though I was sighing and eye rolling). Would that be gentle enough?

 

I can't help with the language though, only structure and content. ESL. :D

 

You are going to get slammed w/ freebies, if you are offering I am in.:001_smile::001_smile: Do you do poetry and short stories too????

[Ester Maria]

Do you do poetry and short stories too????

Creative writing? I'd prefer not. :)

 

It's possible to assess creative writing too, but it's a lot more difficult, as the lines between "good" and "bad", "allowed" and "not allowed" are so much more blurred. However, formal writing about poems and about short stories is fine.

[Brindee]

I'll do it for free. Even privately, if you wish, via PM.

 

I can be gentle in the sense that I'm not comprehensive. That is, I can focus on one thing at the time, but while doing so, disregarding other things, with concrete examples of how to go about changing what has to be changed. I can also add in smilies, so you don't misunderstand the tone (i.e. where I'm smiling and being gentle, that you don't read it as though I was sighing and eye rolling). Would that be gentle enough?

 

I can't help with the language though, only structure and content. ESL. :D

:001_smile: Thank you Ester! I appreciate your openness with me, and your offer! I would give a lot to already be where you're at, and actually understand all this!

[CherylG]

:grouphug:

 

Sorry about that Cheryl. I do think one response was uneccesarily harsh. I had written a response and then deleted b/c I had no intention of starting any further back and forth comments.

 

It takes courage to post your dc's work on this new sub-forum. I do hope there is no chilling effect for others teaching writing at home and looking for helpful feedback and not hurtful comments.

 

Lisa

My goal in posting was to encourage others to not be afraid...I fear to have had the opposite affect.

:tongue_smilie:

[distancia]

OP Cheryl, what grade (if any) did the teacher give your son? Based upon the number of red marks (not many) I assume he received a decent grade.

 

If I were to compare this essay to others from a similar age group--for example, those written by students taking the SAT Writing exam--I would have to say it rates higher than most. Your son would probably receive an 8 on the essay portion. He is doing what students today are being told to do: use "big" words, construct complex sentences, be original and creative with metaphors and similes. Unfortunately, the continuity of clear thought is often lost in the process. The end result is a piece of obfuscational writing. In the classrooms and the SAT prep courses the students are told to write in a formulaic style: verbose, pedantic, filled with unnecessary adjectives and adverbs to prove how great a writer one is....all to the detriment of the message behind the writing.

 

Yes, there are flaws with your son's essay--but then again, he is only sixteen, and he is learning to polish his writing skills. You can see that he was trying to cram too much into too little. What would have served him best was what I always tell me daughter to do: write the darn paper, then put it away for a few days and come back to it with a fresh eye and a fresh mind. And I insist that she read it aloud and see if it makes sense. When she is having a hard time trying to put what is in her mind on paper, I have suggested that she pretend she is being interviewed. Have her ask herself questions--aloud---and answer them--aloud. This helps her to clarify her thoughts before even tackling the writing portion of the assignment.

 

There is an art to writing clearly and succinctly, and the way in which it is developed is called precis writing. Sadly, it is not utilized much in the United States, and then only at the college and graduate levels, while in Europe and elsewhere it is taught from primary grades on up (my mother, a European, had precis composition books from age 10 and onwards).

 

Here in the US we attempt to teach writing to students in a backwards manner: we encourage them to fill their work with "fluff" before teaching them how to create a solid scaffold.

 

If you can teach your son how to write precis--it's not difficult, it's actually kind of fun, and can be done in just a few minutes a day, starting with a paragraph or two from a book--you will be training his hand to write as critically as his mind can reason.

 

If you Google "precis writing" you will find all sorts of information. Here is a nice example: http://faculty.mc3.edu/rdgreenw/precis/presentation.html

Edited March 3, 2011 by distancia

[swimmermom3]

I thought Ester Maria's critique was incredibly helpful. I would have been so grateful if any of my teachers had given me such detailed feedback on my writing!

 

I agree. I would want to know, if I were the student's instructor, where we should place our focus for improvement.

 

We use MCT's criteria as our basis for grading papers here:

 

D or higher: requires correct elementary English

C or higher: also get your MLA format correct

B or higher: also get your essay structure right

A or higher: also have a good thesis

 

(Advanced Academic Writing, Vol. 1, pp. 41-42)

 

I adjust that scale according to age, ability, and instruction level, but it is the goal that student and teacher are aware of and working from.

 

Cheryl, I am sorry if this was uncomfortable.:grouphug: Some will read your son's reviews and despair of their student ever writing a similar caliber paper and others will expect far more of their student. That will happen with every paper presented on here.

 

Did your son enjoy reading the Iliad? Was he able to do some contextual work before and during his reading of it? Or did that matter since it was a book review versus a formal essay?

[swimmermom3]

OP Cheryl, what grade (if any) did the teacher give your son? Based upon the number of red marks (not many) I assume he received a decent grade.

 

If I were to compare this essay to others from a similar age group--for example, those written by students taking the SAT Writing exam--I would have to say it rates higher than most. Your son would probably receive an 8 on the essay portion. He is doing what students today are being told to do: use "big" words, construct complex sentences, be original and creative with metaphors and similes. Unfortunately, the continuity of clear thought is often lost in the process. The end result is a piece of obfuscational writing. In the classrooms and the SAT prep courses the students are told to write in a formulaic style: verbose, pedantic, filled with unnecessary adjectives and adverbs to prove how great a writer one is....all to the detriment of the message behind the writing.

 

Yes, there are flaws with your son's essay--but then again, he is only sixteen, and he is learning to polish his writing skills. You can see that he was trying to cram too much into too little. What would have served him best was what I always tell me daughter to do: write the darn paper, then put it away for a few days and come back to it with a fresh eye and a fresh mind. And I insist that she read it aloud and see if it makes sense. When she is having a hard time trying to put what is in her mind on paper, I have suggested that she pretend she is being interviewed. Have her ask herself questions--aloud---and answer them--aloud. This helps her to clarify her thoughts before even tackling the writing portion of the assignment.

 

There is an art to writing clearly and succinctly, and the way in which it is developed is called precis writing. Sadly, it is not utilized much in the United States, and then only at the college and graduate levels, while in Europe and elsewhere it is taught from primary grades on up (my mother, a European, had precis composition books from age 10 and onwards).

 

Here in the US we attempt to teach writing to students in a backwards manner: we encourage them to fill their work with "fluff" before teaching them how to create a solid scaffold.

 

If you can teach your son how to write precis--it's not difficult, it's actually kind of fun, and can be done in just a few minutes a day, starting with a paragraph or two from a book--you will be training his hand to write as critically as his mind can reason.

 

If you Google "precis writing" you will find all sorts of information. Here is a nice example: http://faculty.mc3.edu/rdgreenw/precis/presentation.html

 

Distancia, could you please explain the purpose for the precis writing, how it is used in Europe, and where it would fit in the overall writing process? What skills should the student have mastered before writing a paper like this? It is not a process I have seen before and I am intrigued. Thank you.

[distancia]

Hi, Lisa and all.

 

I will post a blurb on precis writing in a separate thread. Precis can be really fun and even young children can grasp the concept quickly. BTW, precis (pronounced "pray-see") is the French word for "precise".

 

In short: it means the writer constantly asking him/herself "what am I trying to say?" and saying it in the simplest and most succinct manner possible. It does not mean reducing the writing to single syllable words and incomplete phrases, as is common in journalism. With precis writing, clarity and coherence of thought is the ultimate goal.

 

Thread to follow.

Edited March 3, 2011 by distancia

[swimmermom3]

Hi, Lisa and all.

 

I will do a blurb on precis writing in a separate thread. Precis can be really fun and even young children can grasp the concept quickly. BTW, precis (pronounced "pray-see") is the French word for "precise".

 

Thank you. That will be greatly appreciated.

[[email protected]]

Posting an essay for critique is an invitation. The invitation was answered with courtesy. Although the comments themselves were negative, the critique was not out of bounds.

 

Moderator

[CherylG]

Thank you, all. What was uncomfortable was that I believe "Where there is strife there is every evil work." I don't want to create strife among us...we all have our own goals for our children. I was being cheeky when I said I'd thrown in the towel.

 

I think his take on it was amusing...that is why I said it was for your enjoyment. I know that will floor some people, but I cannot for the life of me see where he came up with his information. BTW: I am OK with that!

 

I appreciate the feedback and I really don't want anyone to get hammered.

Life's too hard-we need to support one another to keep going through it.

 

Thanks and God bless you.

C