x-post editing

[choirfarm]

I'm going to post this on both forums as I think this is a good topic. How do you revise with your student? TOG suggests having them write the rough draft, your going over it with a red pen, them making the changes. I have never had success with this method either in ps or with my own children. They don't understand what I mean or what I mark or they just skip over it and don't make the changes. Instead, I have to sit with each of them over a course of several days. Here is an example of a sample conversation I would have:

 

This is a paper my 8th grader handed to me this week. In the past, his writing has been creative, original, but EXTREMELY disorganized. Once his title was about one subject, thesis about another, and details about another topic. They were all well written sentences with great vocabulary, but it was just a strand of miscellaneous facts. So.. now this paper is well organized but his original writing is gone:

 

The Great General

Douglas MacArthur was a great general. There is much to agree and disagree in

this statement. His skills as a general are nothing less than outstanding in WWII and the

Korean War. But his loud words and actions did much to hurt his image. In the end,

MacArthur was a great general that could have been greater if he had remembered his

place, as a subordinate to the president.

Douglas MacArthur proved that he was a great general in World War II. He was

the commander ofthe American forces in the Pacific. When the Japanese attacked the

Philippines, MacArthur held them off until the President ordered him back. MacArthur

then told the Philippines in one of his most famous quotes, that he would return. He later

took a part in driving the Japanese back in New Guinea. He then began to slowly hop

from one island to another, driving the enemy back step by step, and doing it very

effectively. His island-hopping strategy was brilliant, proving that he was a great

commander. After World War II, he was appointed Supreme Commander over Japan. He

wrote the Constitution that gave everyone the right to vote, and helped it become one of

the most stable and successful economies of the later zo" Century. His accomplishments

during World War II proved that he was a great general. He had the lowest casualty rate

of any commander of World War II. He had done much to show he was a great general in

World War II.

General MacArthur also proved he was a great general in Korea, but it is also

where he forgot his place in matters of war. After the North Koreans had pushed the.

American and South Korean force to the end of the Korean peninsula, MacArthur struck

back with what is considered to be one ofthe most brilliant moves ofU.S military

history. He decided the best way to defeat the North Koreans was to strike behind their

lines at Inchon. The people at Washington opposed the plan, But MacArthur went

through with it anyway. The move was a huge success. MacArthur shoved the forces of

the North Koreans back towards China. The Chinese warned America ifit got to close,

they would attack. MacArthur knew that Washington would tell him to stop his troop

movement, so he stopped clearing his movements with the Pentagon. The Chinese

attacked and drove the Americans back. President Truman was afraid that the Soviet

Union would get into the conflict and turn it into World War III, so he planned to call

cease fire and begin peace talks. But before he could, MacArthur made a statement that

infuriated Truman. He called the Chinese a defeated army, and if they did not withdraw,

they would be wiped out. Shortly after, President Truman relieved Douglas MacArthur of

command. MacArthur's big mouth had wiped him of command. He had forgotten that it

was not he that commanded, but the president. It was the end of the great general.

MacArthur's military strategy in Korea was nothing short of brilliant, but it was also

where he showed his tremendous faults as a general. He had forgotten his place, and it

proved to be the end of him.

In the end MacArthur's generalship in the Pacific and Korea proved he wsa a great general. But in the end what killed him was his lack of knowledge that it was the president, the ocmmander-in-chief, who ws in charge, not him. Despite these faults, he will always be remembered s one of the greatest generals America ever had.

[choirfarm]

I haven't done it yet, but this is what I will do:

 

Let's look at this paper.

 

Son "It sucks."

 

Me: "Why?"

 

s- "I dunno. It just does. It sounds stupid."

 

Me- "Yeah, I agree. It doesn't really sound like you.. Can you count the number of times you used the word great in this paper?"

 

( He does so.)

Me- What does the word great really mean?? Can you explain? Let us look up some synonyms you might use instead.

 

 

Ok.. so just this conversation and changing the greats takes AT LEAST 15 minutes. We haven't gotten to passive voice, akward constructions, sentence variety, other vocabulary choices, strengthening details, etc.

 

 

So basically we sit and have conversations like this for 4 or 5 days and I finally get a decent paper.. But how much of it is truly his and how much is mine?? I mean he tries to figure out how to fix things and makes several weak attempts. Then I show him a better way which he keeps.

 

How do you get this to become natural? I can tell this 8th grader or my 10th grader to work on their verbs and make them strong, but they don't really do it unless I sit beside them. So.. this is part of the reason why my 10th grader cannot write a good paper in a week. His paper sounds like the one I submitted on another thread in this forum, and then it takes us another week to be an A paper. How do you get THEM to make it an A paper?? Isnt' there an easier way???

 

Teaching writing was never my strong point when I taught ps. I loved teaching literature. I placed out of freshman English and only had to take one other advance writing class. I made a B+. I wrote tons of papers and did ok, but I never really had a class that taught me how to teach it or really do it. I've learned more by homeschooling and stumbling around myself. But I'm still not good at it.

 

BTW, sorry about the formatting. I don't know how to paste a paper and get it to look like it does here. Then he had those last final lines on another page, so I had to type them myself as this was a scan and I can't get the formats to match.

 

Christine

Edited February 19, 2011 by choirfarm

[1Togo]

LOL! This was the scenario in our house for years. Me talking and the students watching my mouth move. I called it the "Peanuts syndrome." We want independent writers, but we tie our students to us with constant repetition of concepts. If we've taught strong verbs, our students should be responsible for reworking their sentences. To help with accountability, we began using an Editing Notebook last year, and I have seen significant improvement. Also, I don't think it's unusual for a paper to take a week or more if you expect a polished piece. However, it sounds like you want your son to take more responsiblity for editing. An Editing Notebook is a way to move him in that direction.

 

Buy a college rule, spiral bound notebook with at least 200 pages. Label the first page, Table of Contents, and put a Roman numeral I in the upper right corner. Put the Roman numerals II, III, IV, V, VI, and VII in the upper right corner of the following pages. Then, begin numbering the subsequent pages 1, 2, 3... in the upper right corner. You will only be using the right side of the page of the body pages. Teach your first editing or writing concept, write the concept in the Table of Contents, and put an example on page 1. Teach only one concept at a time and make sure you student understands how to apply that concept before moving on. Sorry for the bold, but this is critical.

 

Listed below is dd's "Table of Contents."

 

Passive Verbs pg. 1 (page numbers are put in a neat column after the red left hand margin line)

 

Vague Verbs pg. 1

 

Cliche page 1

 

Synonyms for "Good" pg. 1

 

Sentence Variety pg. 2

 

Showing words versus telling, hazy words pg. 2

 

Words that create a picture pg. 2

 

Verbs that imply emotion pg. 2

 

Examples of Perfect Paragraphs pg. 3-4

 

ROC-It pg. 5

 

Brainstorming pg. 6-7

 

Most of the information comes from various writing curriculum that we have used and from books on editing; i.e. IEW - Sentence Variety, LTW - Passive Verbs, Vague Verbs, Cliche, Examples of Perfect Paragraphs - PBW, etc. The Editing Notebook is a good way to corral the information from various curriculum if you change curriculum. Btw, when I taught verbs, I required dd to circle the main verb in every sentence. Then, I worked with her to correct various verb problems. Changing the verbs goes a long way toward improving a piece, and as you can see, she moved on from verbs.

 

Also, when she sits down to write, she must have her Editing Notebook and a dictionary front and center.

Edited February 19, 2011 by 1Togo

[Joan in GE]

This looks like a good idea and reminds me of the spelling notebooks my children have made...just need some clarification...

 

What do you put on the other Roman numeral pages? and why are there 7 of them?

 

I cannot quite understand the details of why there are so many different editing points on one page. But then my mind has been shaped by the spelling notebook where it was by phonics sound, and I would put the different ways that the sound could be made across the top of the page, and they would write the word that they had mispelled in the column with that manner of spelling that phonogram. Whew! So I'm thinking of one editing error type per page, then they would add other examples from other writing where they would need to apply that same concept. Or have I completely misunderstood?

 

Thanks Togo,

Joan

[1Togo]

What do you put on the other Roman numeral pages? and why are there 7 of them?

 

The seven Roman numeral pages are the Table of Contents. This book should last for years, so you need quite a few pages. The Table of Contents is set up like this:

 

Table of Contents (on the top line)

skip a line

1st entry with page number in the right hand column

skip a line

2nd entry with a page number in the right hand column

 

I cannot quite understand the details of why there are so many different editing points on one page.

 

The length of the description of the editing points varies. The information on verbs came from LTW, so we just made a copy, cut it out and taped it in the Editing Notebook with double-stick tape. They do not have to write lots of examples -- just your teaching point and one example. If there is a lot of information, type it up for them and tape it in the book. The Editing Notebook shouldn't add work. It's a tool for revision.

Edited February 19, 2011 by 1Togo

[1Togo]

I get revision ideas from many sources. Look for books on teaching revision; i.e. The Revision Toolbox by Georgia Heard, and general books on writing; i.e. Writing Well by William Zinsser and Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott (some language as I remember). Bravewriter offers many ideas for revision. Check out Julie's blog. Her last post is about surprise.

Edited February 19, 2011 by 1Togo

[Joan in GE]

The length of the description of the editing points varies. The information on verbs came from LTW, so we just made a copy, cut it out and taped it in the Editing Notebook with double-stick tape. They do not have to write lots of examples -- just your teaching point and one example. If there is a lot of information, type it up for them and tape it in the book. The Editing Notebook shouldn't add work. It's a tool for revision.

 

Thanks - I get it now. It is like a personalized writing problems resource notebook. You are just giving information as the student needs it.

 

Joan

[1Togo]

Yep, yep.

[Capt_Uhura]

Thanks 1TOGO for the info on the Revision notebook!

[1Togo]

You are welcome. This is a common practice for teachers who use Writing Workshop. Check out Nancie Atwell and Lucie Calkins.

[Guest buggirl]

I'm wondering if this is his work at all? I mean you said it doesn't resemble anything in the past he's turned in. So, maybe this was copied with some dumbing down to make it appear to be his. Maybe you've been so critical in the past, that he came up with a new angle. Boys, esp. when they don't want to do something, are great parallel thinkers. Let me give you an example: If your son opened the door and went outside; then you said that he wasn't allowed to open the door without asking you first. He would teach his dog to open the door, and he would still go outside without asking. Devious- but that's boys.:sneaky2:

 

The "It sucks!" response probably isn't his either. He is probably thinking that the only reason you are talking to him is because you do not like it.:drool: So, instead of having an actual conversation, he is telling you what you expect to hear. The whole exercise and conversation have not been productive.:banghead:

 

A lot of boys at this age do not like to write. If you find something that turns him onto writing, let me know. My son is, also, in 8th and doesn't like writing. I have come to terms with it. :chillpill: I only make him write about once a month. I do a lot of oral testing to make sure he understands the concepts. His writing has improved greatly, although it is still like pulling teeth to get him started. :ack2:

[choirfarm]

A lot of boys at this age do not like to write. If you find something that turns him onto writing, let me know. My son is, also, in 8th and doesn't like writing. I have come to terms with it. :chillpill: I only make him write about once a month. I do a lot of oral testing to make sure he understands the concepts. His writing has improved greatly, although it is still like pulling teeth to get him started. :ack2:

 

Well... just because he doesn't like to write doesn't mean he shouldn't. I guess I'm looking at college where you have to turn in 2 or 3 papers a week. They need to be ready.

[choirfarm]

LOL! This was the scenario in our house for years. Me talking and the students watching my mouth move. I called it the "Peanuts syndrome." We want independent writers, but we tie our students to us with constant repetition of concepts. If we've taught strong verbs, our students should be responsible for reworking their sentences. To help with accountability, we began using an Editing Notebook last year, and I have seen significant improvement. Also, I don't think it's unusual for a paper to take a week or more if you expect a polished piece. However, it sounds like you want your son to take more responsiblity for editing. An Editing Notebook is a way to move him in that direction.

 

Buy a college rule, spiral bound notebook with at least 200 pages. Label the first page, Table of Contents, and put a Roman numeral I in the upper right corner. Put the Roman numerals II, III, IV, V, VI, and VII in the upper right corner of the following pages. Then, begin numbering the subsequent pages 1, 2, 3... in the upper right corner. You will only be using the right side of the page of the body pages. Teach your first editing or writing concept, write the concept in the Table of Contents, and put an example on page 1. Teach only one concept at a time and make sure you student understands how to apply that concept before moving on. Sorry for the bold, but this is critical.

 

Listed below is dd's "Table of Contents."

 

Passive Verbs pg. 1 (page numbers are put in a neat column after the red left hand margin line)

 

Vague Verbs pg. 1

 

Cliche page 1

 

Synonyms for "Good" pg. 1

 

Sentence Variety pg. 2

 

Showing words versus telling, hazy words pg. 2

 

Words that create a picture pg. 2

 

Verbs that imply emotion pg. 2

 

Examples of Perfect Paragraphs pg. 3-4

 

ROC-It pg. 5

 

Brainstorming pg. 6-7

 

Most of the information comes from various writing curriculum that we have used and from books on editing; i.e. IEW - Sentence Variety, LTW - Passive Verbs, Vague Verbs, Cliche, Examples of Perfect Paragraphs - PBW, etc. The Editing Notebook is a good way to corral the information from various curriculum if you change curriculum. Btw, when I taught verbs, I required dd to circle the main verb in every sentence. Then, I worked with her to correct various verb problems. Changing the verbs goes a long way toward improving a piece, and as you can see, she moved on from verbs.

 

Also, when she sits down to write, she must have her Editing Notebook and a dictionary front and center.

 

I'll try, and my oldest may actually do this.. but I'm betting my 8th grader will not.. Same thing with word problems. He just puts question marks until I sit with him and ask him question after question and he can do it. I mean TT word problems are easy. They follow the pattern in the lesson for heaven's sake..you don't even REALLY have to understand them. Grr.

[Julie in MN]

I'm going to post this on both forums as I think this is a good topic. How do you revise with your student? TOG suggests having them write the rough draft, your going over it with a red pen, them making the changes. I have never had success with this method either in ps or with my own children. They don't understand what I mean or what I mark or they just skip over it and don't make the changes.

 

I started homeschooling after working for a boss with a major red pen obsession and vowed never to use a red pen with my kids :) (I did give in and use it in math after the kids found it too hard to find my marks/comments in pen or pencil.)

 

Does your child ever type? Especially in high school, typing is becoming the expected method. If he types, I think it's FAR easier to revise.

 

The first time, I go through and write notes about the general topic and organization (in a different color so he can see what I've written). I don't want to get too detailed on grammar at this stage because everything might change.

 

Then when he gets his ideas all straight, I go through and work on the grammar (again in a different color, sometimes writing notes and sometimes just changing the color of his words so he notices misspelling etc.).

 

I save red for things I've told him a million times!

 

I try to end each draft with a comment or two on things I liked. I probably should do even more of this :tongue_smilie:

 

Julie

Edited February 20, 2011 by Julie in MN

[Joan in GE]

The first time, I go through and write notes about the general topic and organization (in a different color so he can see what I've written). I don't want to get too detailed on grammar at this stage because everything might change.

 

Then when he gets his ideas all straight, I go through and work on the grammar (again in a different color, sometimes writing notes and sometimes just changing the color of his words so he notices misspelling etc.).

 

I save red for things I've told him a million times!

 

I try to end each draft with a comment or two on things I liked. I probably should do even more of this :tongue_smilie:

 

Good idea - and the "told him a million times!" part made me laugh.

 

Joan

[1Togo]

My only thought on marking things that you have taught a million times is that mom is working harder than the student.

[Julie in MN]

My only thought on marking things that you have taught a million times is that mom is working harder than the student.

 

Yes, I hear you.

 

I'll just say I have a waaay youngest, he's my last, and he's my cheerful encouragement, so I am way different with him than my oldest. (Although I will say, my oldest's high school teachers did that, too -- he'd get so tired of hearing the difference between "there" and "their" for 12 years.) Anyways, I'm way more of a socratic discussion, hands-on, give-and-take tutor with my youngest than an instructor or an assignment-giver -- even in high school. And he's a different child, too. My older two wanted to be perfect and my youngest will just say, "It's okay mom, I don't mind if it's got some errors, not everyone has to be perfect. You can give me whatever grade you want." And yet I see his abilities in there, and his potential gifts. And so, I push him to be better during these last few years with him... over and over :tongue_smilie:

 

Julie

[1Togo]

Deleting.

Edited February 20, 2011 by 1Togo

[Cleopatra]

Thank you all for giving your comments.

 

I'm using CW with my 6th grade dd. Sometimes I wonder why she is working so hard on synonym substitutions. I sigh when yet again she has to condense or expand another sentence. I wonder the point of practicing using a word as a subject and then a direct object, possessive, indirect object, etc.

 

After reading all your posts, I was reminded WHY. It made me feel better. Thanks for expanding the "big picture" for me! :D

[Zee]

. However, it sounds like you want your son to take more responsiblity for editing. An Editing Notebook is a way to move him in that direction.

 

Great idea. We have a writing notebook that ds uses with IEW that has a lot of "tools" to help him when writing. I think you have a great idea with your editing notebook and I think I may incorporate that into ds's writing notebook. A section at the front would be great, I think. Self-editing is a weak point for ds.

 

Thanks for sharing this idea in such detail. :)