OhElizabeth...a bit about BJU's American Republic

[Janice in NJ]

TOG doesn't recommend that title. But I found that title after reading another book TOG did recommend. It's part of my "Wait a minute. I'm missing something here. I want to know more!" TOG uses this text in year 3:

http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Theological-Crisis/dp/0807830127

 

TOG is very respectful of home schoolers. They get it. We all bring something different to the tunnel. So my take away from the tunnel won't match your take away.

 

But the tunnel is designed to offer a leg up to most travelers.

And I think it works. At least it certainly has in my case. I've learned a TON!

 

Look at the first few pages of each week plan.

Purple Threads - walk away goals for each subject for each learning level. Targets.

Reading lists - reading to meet those targets

Overview Pages - thinking points to meet those targets

Writing Pages - writing opportunities to meet those targets.

 

Read. Think. Write.

 

Oh - and about nailing down goals. Textbooks do a great job of this. It's their trump card. Clear goals - complete with quizzes and a test. And the test is designed so a reasonably conscientious 9th grader can get a near-perfect score. For me I had to abandon the notion of a 95% in "history" though. Yes, you can still get a 95% in my history class. Obviously. I make regular transcripts with my kids. I offer them clear objectives that produce neat and tidy numbers. But no one gets a 95% in real history. What would you use to measure that? What would the criteria be? For us success in THAT realm is more of a lifestyle, more of a feeling, more of a sense of wonder. Back to the notion of a 95%: I was a great student in high school. A 95%+ student. I confidently paddled around in every pool I was offered. Shoulders above the water. Hair dry. Barely breathing hard. I felt so smart.

 

Years later I found myself dumped in the humanities core courses at Columbia University. I was reading Homer, Dante, and St. Augustine on the subway as I went back and forth from my newlywed apartment in Astoria, Queens. On the subway. Yup. See - how STUPID is that!!??!! I didn't even know the first thing about this. No pencil. No notebook. No study helps. No TABLE!!!! And no - I did not even OWN a dictionary. We were newlyweds; we didn't have money for ANYTHING! I was crammed on the train with an infinite number of distractions, a heavy backpack on my shoulder and a boiling hot coat - complete with a growl in my stomach. It's hard to even think about; I want to yell back through time at myself.

 

The lurching of the subway cars matched the unsettling slosh in my soul. What? Huh? I was SO confused! I had no tools for building a ramp to that world. I thought I knew how to read. I thought I knew how to write. I thought I knew how to think. I was a near-perfect student, right? Yup. When the water level was controlled. Dump me in the ocean and I didn't even know how to FIND a life raft. I certainly had no tools to grapple with THIS level of complete confusion. No experience. No way to find a point to swim toward. My nose was six feet below the water line and I was sinking.

 

And that made me angry.

Angry.

Frustrated.

With no recourse.

I didn't even know what to do to fix it.

 

So I try to choose goals that will force my kids to see past a good grade. I want them to be firmly aware of their ignorance. So they can engage with others in humility. In the end, I choose buoys that they can swim toward with success. But I want them to be able to see the size of the sea beyond the buoy.

 

And don't misunderstand me. I own lots of textbooks. Older editions can be had for next to nothing. And they are great for certain things. Great.

 

Have fun.

Janice

Edited February 21, 2011 by Janice in NJ

[PeterPan]

Now we're finally getting somewhere! See for a brief, dumb moment I was thinking all this educational approach developed in a vacuum. It DIDN'T. You had experiences, and they shaped what you view as important, what you view as peripheral. See I had sort of the opposite experience. I went to a high school where we sat around discussing Plato and Socrates and Virginia Wolf and Melville, but we didn't have history textbooks. Our experience was heavy on thought and short on knowledge, sort of the worst of both methods. I think something more to the middle, something with both knowledge and the synthesis of the knowledge, would have been fine. As it is, it sounds like we were educated on the opposite extremes. They taught me how to argue viewpoints and causes of the Civil War, but they forgot to tell us how many senators there are. I mean FOR REAL it was that bad.

 

So now I know why you want to read with your kids, and now it's clear why I keep thinking textbooks would be so helpful, lol. So I think what I wrestle with on a personal level, just being honest, is whether the content through an eclectic approach will be adequate. Educationally what I wrestle with is this history lover who's on a different wavelength. She likes, as Karen puts it, the smells of history, the flavors, the whys and wherefores, the context. I'm pretty content just to figure out the what's and have a clear delineation of cause and effect. No smells needed. :)

 

Well since this is clearly a personal problem for me, a conflict of soul, I'll stop dragging on your time. Like you say, I'm just going to have to think about it until I find an answer that gives me peace. I appreciate you parsing the issues with me though. They make a lot more sense now. You're definitely in the direction of what I had been thinking. I just hadn't gone so far in my mind as to say the issues would merge. They were still separate things. I'll have to think through it. And whatever I do, I'm going to give her the smells of history, not just a sniff of the dust. :)

[Janice in NJ]

Cool.

No worries about my time today. We're off this week. I'm so enjoying the break so far. I'm looking forward to a different kind of week.

 

Peace,

Janice

[PeterPan]

Oh, not that I meant you couldn't reply. I just meant you didn't HAVE to. It's pretty clear I have to open my brain a little bit on this, pour the soup in, and see what happens. It's not something anyone else can do for me. Right now I'm just getting scalded by the soup and feel the steam all around me. :)

[PeterPan]

Hey Janice, if you ever bop back to this thread again, would you like to discuss what I found? I was giving myself some book therapy this afternoon, petting, rearranging, putting up, and I found this DK Story of America http://www.amazon.com/Story-America-DK-Publishing/dp/0789489031 that I had picked up at a sale last year. Now that she has seen it, dd is salivating over the thought of using it! It does what you (and KarenAnne privately) were saying, going into the connections and ideas and whys and flow of things more. And of course it's just jaw-dropping beautiful. I compared its entries on a random topic, the Sherman Anti-Trust Laws, to what the BJU11 text does with them. NOW I get it, lol. The DK book shows the nuances and how it played out, where the BJU11 just tells you exactly what it was and what to think of it, whiz bam done. Pretty stunning.

 

I think as long as she takes her time with it, the content will be accessible. I read a random section of it, which just happened to be on Cady Stanton and the women's rights movement, and I found myself thinking about the issues it had raised, mulling them, much after I walked away. To me that's a good sign, as that's actually something *I* could engage with. LOL

 

So here's the next question. If I have this fabulous book to act as a spine, and I have all these clear leapfrogs and tangents, why do I need TOG? Is TOG most helpful when you want to plug in lots of resources and need a topical spine vs. when you already come with a spine? I definitely like their writing assignments, so I wish I could have those. Do you find yourself fighting TOG at times? Do you find yourself kind of using it like a 2 yo with his mother? you walk away, check to make sure it's still there, walk farther, get scared and run back... Not that we get scared, but sometimes we don't need our hands held ALL the time, only part of the time.

 

I don't know, just thinking here. Do you find yourself USING the TOG writing assignments? Or do you diverge enough that after a while you find it just as easy to get in the flow and make your own?

[Janice in NJ]

Hi Elizabeth,

 

It sounds like you've found some things that you are psyched about. :001_smile:

 

So here's the next question. If I have this fabulous book to act as a spine, and I have all these clear leapfrogs and tangents, why do I need TOG? Is TOG most helpful when you want to plug in lots of resources and need a topical spine vs. when you already come with a spine? I definitely like their writing assignments, so I wish I could have those. Do you find yourself fighting TOG at times? Do you find yourself kind of using it like a 2 yo with his mother? you walk away, check to make sure it's still there, walk farther, get scared and run back... Not that we get scared, but sometimes we don't need our hands held ALL the time, only part of the time.

 

I don't know, just thinking here. Do you find yourself USING the TOG writing assignments? Or do you diverge enough that after a while you find it just as easy to get in the flow and make your own?

 

You may not need TOG. You asked why would you need it. I can't answer that question for you. I can just tell you about what has worked for me. But I know that you know that. ;)

 

TOG is set up to respect the intelligence of the teacher. Yes, the curriculum assumes that the teacher is interested in learning so she can become a better teacher. But the curriculum doesn't talk down to the teacher. It recognizes that the teacher comes to the table with some level of education and a set of beliefs that should be respected rather than ridiculed. So rather than focusing first on telling me exactly what to teach, it first focuses on handling much of the administration of homeschooling the humanities. It is an extremely supportive curriculum. It supports a newbie well. And it still supports me - for less than five bucks a week. Unbelievable! To me - that's worth it.

 

It actually doesn't coddle the frightened. :001_smile: It encourages you to get to work to calm your fears; very productive! It's supportive. So no, I definitely do NOT feel like I need it. The curriculum doesn't move you toward a co-dependent relationship. It's not like that at all. It's not confining. I have not found it to be controlling or limiting in the least. Even if I don't use one book, one question, one writing assignment, or one single project listed, I can still use the week plan to choose a plan for that topic for MY kid for that week. The week plan still greatly reduces the amount of time I have to spend to nail down what I want to do.

 

Just so you know: :001_smile: I'm not frightened by high school any more. Not in the least. Incredibly annoyed that I used to think certain things were important, and now I've discovered that they don't matter one tiny bit? Ticked about that! Furious actually! :glare: Oh well. Live and learn. I can say with absolute assurance that the education I am prepared to offer my 8th grader far exceeds what he could get locally - either in public school or private school. NO fear about that at all!

 

Do I want to do it? Do I feel like doing it? Heck no! No rose-colored glasses here anymore. It's a ton of work. Honestly? At this point, I'm working through that. I don't want to. I WANT to go do something else. So that's where I am right now. (Not very inspiring, eh?) But afraid to the point that I'm clinging to something? Nope. Not on any level. Certainly haven't felt that way about TOG. It's not designed to limit the teacher. It's designed to inspire the teacher to self-educate.

 

I like the TOG writing assignments. But this year my dd is taking AP English so I've been using other materials to support the kind of writing she needs to master for that test. Ds is in 8th grade. I use 8th grade as a catch-all before high school so we use some of the assignments when they fit my goals.

 

TOG is not confining. It's liberating. For years, it has done much of the grunt work for me. I've had the time to learn so much because of TOG, not in spite of it.

 

But you have repeatedly said that you don't really want to do all of this with your daughter. I think TOG is an overly complicated tool for the child to use on her own. If you don't want to engage in Socratic discussion or choose assignments that fit your child for that week, then there are plenty of other materials that will probably work better. Do you want to choose materials that she can use to self-educate? I think TOG works better if the parent wants to be in the loop and is looking to be supported with that interaction. I think TOG works best when it is a shared experience.

 

So TOG might be more of a hindrance than a support for you. If you don't want to be that involved with these subjects, I suspect that you will be annoyed by the bulk in each week plan. There are plenty of other materials written directly to the student. You might find that your money is better spent on Teaching Company Courses or outside classes: things she can use independently of you. You asked "why" you would need TOG. It's entirely possible that you don't.

 

Work what you've found for a while. If you are still really drawn to TOG after a couple of weeks, I would recommend that you pick up a unit to match the next nine weeks you have coming up. It will cost you forty-five bucks. You can stop wondering for under $50. That might be worth it. :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited February 22, 2011 by Janice in NJ

[PeterPan]

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense! :)

[Heather in VA]

Elizabeth,

 

Just one more thing to keep in mind here... Each time you have had a history crisis you have decided to work with a spine and create your own, being concerned about the confines of a curriculum and the desire for tangents etc. Each time it's been frustrating for you and a whole lot of work which has ultimately lead you to want to try something else. Now there is nothing wrong with going down this path again if that is what you want, but you asked why you might need TOG (or something mapped out). Well to me that's one big why - so you don't overwhelm yourself or create work for you that is just too much for you to do in the way you wish to do it.

 

 

Heather

[PeterPan]

Heather--Oh I know, I know!!! I spent a lot of time with these books this morning (BJU 8 and 11, DK Story of America, 20th Century for Young People, 20th Century for Idiots), and as I looked at them memories of past torture came back to me. I *do* have the propensity to overcomplicate, hehe. After much looking, I think I'm going with the DK book. Neither the BJU 8 nor 11 is a perfect fit, and the 20th Century for Idiots book that TOG uses it too dry. I don't really feel like I can even work with the TOG schedule, not since it's built around that spine. I mean I could, but then I'd be doing what I always did with the VP elementary, taking a topic and trying to flesh it out. With the DK book I have enough info, a narrative flow, discussion of the nuances and cause, effect, and small chunks that I can deal with. I poured through it this morning, and I'm exceedingly happy at this point with my choice. My small theory is I can then pull in O3 books and corresponding chapters from the 20th Century for Young People. That will give us the smells of history KarenAnne keeps telling me to look for.

 

So what I think I've done is come full circle to a WTM approach to history and GB, the very thing I had assumed I didn't want. I wanted TOG because it was the agony done for me. I like BJU for the same reason. But having them in-hand and really looking at them, there's no way I can put her into either. Someone like me, yes, but not dd. She's just not that type. She appreciates the nuances and wants to hear the sides of the issues and the rabbit trails. She loves the color of the DK book. By the time we get to it in the fall, it will be a good fit. That has been my other struggle in the past, chosing in the spring something that was too simplistic for her by fall. So basically I'm chosing something that is a stretch now and would fuzzle her a bit today in the hope that by fall it will fit nicely. Buying the shoe a size big you could say. I couldn't make that work with TOG, because the mix wasn't quite right. I would have been fighting it the whole time and trying to fix things. This way I have one spine to do two days a week and can do any GB and good books we want on the other days using Omnibus iii or other guides. Oh, and none of the lit (not history but lit selections) of TOG dialectic were going to be a good fit by fall. She's enjoying them now, just for pleasure, and the worksheets wouldn't have suited her. I know, that makes me freaky too, because there *is* a certain amount of value to thinking about literature analytically. But I can't just cram worksheets down her throat and require her to learn. She never has been that kind of kid. We'll just have to find another way to get there.

 

Some of the more world history selections from TOG I'm going to pull into our geography for this summer. I guess you could say I liked TOG enough to butcher it and do it my own way. If I have oodles of money floating around, I may buy it for the writing assignments. But really, that's a lot of money just for that. I'm hoping, at least for this year, the assignments will come to me. If they don't, I'll buy. Or maybe there's something logical I can do for writing with the DK spine? I haven't figured out that part yet. It sure isn't going to be outlining, lol. We've outlined till we have Klingon blood coming out our noses. Time to do something else.

 

As for what I'll do in 8th, I don't have a clue, lol. I viewed this coming year (7th) as a trial in methodology. I THOUGHT I was going to try TOG to see if that would work for a 4 year cycle for us. But I really haven't convinced myself it's going to make my life easier at this point or be what I need. I'm awfully close with this DK spine, awfully close. It's a lot more flush than say a BJU textbook. If I were trying to expand that, yes I would fall apart and be whining a few months from now. But this DK book is already pretty much fleshed out with the extras and controversies, the cause/effect discussions, the connections. It's all there. What was really compelling to me was that when *I* read it I found myself going back and thinking about some of the controversies they had discussed, the people and the reasonings behind their actions. If it can do that for *me* when I abhor history, it will assuredly do that for her. Or put another way, whether she likes the book or not, it's at least something I feel comfortable working with. That's a first. I hadn't really found that before, at least not in a way that merged my comfort and her level of interest.

 

So you still think I'm crazy? Or maybe I'm sounding a little more sane? I feel sane. I'm pretty excited, because I think it will work. The only thing I keep telling myself is NOT TO OVERCOMPLICATE it. I have a pretty trim little idea here: DK plus GB/gb. I need to keep it that way. What's going to screw me up is if I succomb to bringing in the workbook from this and buying such and such of that to do a complete job. That's when I'll be toast. If I stick with these two concepts and WORK them and milk them, I think I'll be fine.

 

So, to that end, does anyone have any great tips on how you milk a spine? This DK book is pretty rich. What I'm mainly unsure of is what I have her *do* with it after she reads. I assume make a timeline. Clearly some mapping. Any preference on what maps? But then what would she write? That's what I need to figure out next. Maybe the writing for the spine is more regurgitation and the writing for the GB/gb is more analytical/synthesizing? Maybe we mix up the spine writing and do a mix of creative, etc? Gotta think about this. Duh, that's what TOG does. They actually go through a mix of styles. It sounds dreamy to have those pre-done, but then they might not fit the exact chapters we're on. Or maybe they would? Or maybe the TOG writing would be aimed at synthesis and not what we need? Or maybe synthesis IS what she needs? Must think, must think... LOL

[FlockOfSillies]

Hey, OhE, I've got a copy of Writing Aids I'm looking to unload...

 

TOG dropout here too. Oh, what a waste of money to get something that was such a poor fit. Telling my "open-and-go" self that TOG was going to be the one exception. Gaaahhhhhhhh!

 

Discussions don't happen much here, either. I need to adjust things for next year, so I have some dedicated time to give to my oldest for 8th, but I really do rely on her to be independent for so much right now. Sigh.