Feeling disappointed with how we are doing history.

[Carla]

So I started in January following WTM recommendations for the Middle Ages History. My middle schooler is writing out facts from KHE (actually has been doing this since last January in Ancients), outlining some additional resources and my early high schooler started writing outlines using "History: The Definitive Visual Guide" from DK. My elementary guys are listening to me read SOTW volume 2.

 

I feel like the little guys and myself are the only ones getting anything out of it. The encyclopedias just feel like they hop around and they are just copying down stuff but not really "getting" what's going on. I wish we could all just do SOTW, but the olders have listened to it before and it just would seem like they should be beyond this already. I am reading SWB's "History of the Medieval World" in an effort to get it myself at a higher level than SOTW.

 

I did order "Human Odyssey" from K12 for my eldest (it hasn't come yet), because it sounds like it is written in more of a narrative style, maybe a bit predigested, but at least flowing better? I do try to discuss things with them, but it is hard to get it all in.

 

As an example, today my husband looked at my middle grade son's fact list (which he NEVER does) about the Islam spread in KHE and asked a couple of simple questions and my son was just like "I dunno who those guys were, it just said it in the book." It was just so... disappointing :leaving:.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited February 9, 2011 by carlita

[Robin in DFW]

My ds was reading through Hakim's books and not getting much from them. They were jumpy and disjointed, according to ds. I would ask him to orally narrate each day after reading and he couldn't really tell me much. I would occasionally have him write a summary of his reading and it was less than thrilling (and I'm being nice).

 

We went back to using SOTW 4...picked up where we left off last year. It's been SO much better. He enjoys, remembers and tells me about his reading. We use the outline worksheets, maps and tests along with it. We are using a short book on US History recommended by SWB in TWTM as our overview of American History.

 

Have your middlers do SOTW with the youngers. The high schoolers would probably get more from a regular ol' textbook.

 

My high schooler uses textbooks for lots of subjects and she actually prefers them over other methods. One thing I have found is outlining and notetaking do not help her remember anything. She usually just reads, absorbs and writes me a summary of the chapter at the end. I use this summary as a test. If she can tell me everything about that chapter she has mastered the material. She loves this method for history. Now for other subjects, she does regular tests. But, history lends itself well to the "tell me everything you know about the chapter" method.

[Greta Lea]

http://www.yesterdaysclassics.com/catalog/intro.php

[Allearia]

I just got Human Odyssey and love it. It is a great narrative style at a higher level than SOTW. Unfortunately we haven't really used it yet, I might save it until we finish one go through with SOTW because I don't want to waste it now and have nothing for next time, my son is a bit younger. That should be a big difference. Also won't hurt him to hear or read the SOTW chapters, I find them interesting.

[foxbridgeacademy]

We got k12 Human Odyssey last week, and I think it's going to work out well. It is above my son's reading ability,(because of LD) but I'm going to do the reading. It is very in depth in some areas, like Sumeria, I really like the "narrative" style. It has 1-2 short "stories" per section, with a descriptive way of telling what we know/think happened long ago. I particularly like the section on how we find information about long dead civilizations, when there is very little recorded. I am planning to add in Usborne Encyclopedia World History and Complete Book World History, where applicable for a more "these are the facts" style of learning.

 

It is secular as far as I can tell. I don't think Christians will have a problem with it either though. I can see both sides of the fence having come from an ulta-conservative upbringing, to now a totally secular life. This book straddles the fence pretty well.

[Robin in DFW]

Thank you!

[5LittleMonkeys]

Here it is at Amazon...http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931728534/sr=8-1/qid=1297215642/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1297215642&sr=8-1&seller=

 

They have volume 3 right now too but not 2.

[TKDmom]

Here it is at Amazon...http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1931728534/sr=8-1/qid=1297215642/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1297215642&sr=8-1&seller=

 

They have volume 3 right now too but not 2.

 

They do have vol. 2. For some reason, it's listed as an alternate edition of vol. 1.

 

If you click on "view 1 more format" it will show a 2004 hardcover--that's vol 2.

Edited February 9, 2011 by bonniebeth4

[Sunshine State Sue]

We used SOTW in 2nd-5th and loved it. We used History Odyssey in 6th & 7th and tolerated it. HO follows TWTM recommendations well. We hated the KHE. B-o-r-i-n-g. Zero retention.

 

I heard about Human Odyssey but it was a mystery to me how to get a hold of it. If you are open to outsourcing, you may want to investigate History at our House. Not perfect, but ds learns and retains and appreciates it much more. You may read my review here. Email me if you would like samples.

[Trish]

Critical Thinking Co. has a new book out called World History Detective.

[KathyBC]

If you've found something that will work, by all means disregard the following.

 

If your older kids wouldn't mind listening to you reread SOTW, why not let them sit in? I think having the narrative overview to tie the outlining together might help. Sure, they're beyond it, but so am I and I'm still learning new things on our second pass through the series. It's not like my oldest has perfect recall from 4 years ago, either, kwim?

[PenKase]

If you've found something that will work, by all means disregard the following.

 

If your older kids wouldn't mind listening to you reread SOTW, why not let them sit in? I think having the narrative overview to tie the outlining together might help. Sure, they're beyond it, but so am I and I'm still learning new things on our second pass through the series. It's not like my oldest has perfect recall from 4 years ago, either, kwim

 

:iagree:totally.

 

This is our first go around with STOW and both my girls love it. I consider it the hook, line, and sinker that draws them in and gets them to enjoy an otherwise very dry subject. For the past few weeks, I've had my middle grade dd do history ala WTM logic stage but she finds it DRY and not very interesting. This dd is simply not hardwired for facts only. It is amazing how much she retains ANYTHING in a narrative/story like format.

[Carla]

If you've found something that will work, by all means disregard the following.

 

If your older kids wouldn't mind listening to you reread SOTW, why not let them sit in? I think having the narrative overview to tie the outlining together might help. Sure, they're beyond it, but so am I and I'm still learning new things on our second pass through the series. It's not like my oldest has perfect recall from 4 years ago, either, kwim?

 

Come to think of it, we started out doing this earlier in the year! But my eldest guy was running out of time in the day to get his other subjects done if he sat in on history with the youngers. So we stopped. But I miss that cozy feeling of us all gathered around engaged in these stories. Maybe I need to try to fit this in again.

 

They do have SOTW on CD which they all listen to from time to time in their rooms, yet I love the opportunity to be able to discuss and all be learning together. I have been missing this as they all grow and now I have my older guy studying biology and algebra (and a separate history book) and I just can't keep up with everyone :crying: YKWIM?

[Cleopatra]

We tried but we just couldn't make the logic history recommendations in the WTM work for us. The outlining took all the joy out of history and the Kingfisher Encyclopedia, while I really like it for a reference book, just didn't make history come alive as a spine.

 

So ...... I simply chose a good spine (we're using the H.A. Guerber/Christine Miller books: http://www.nothingnewpress.com/guerber.shtml , but there are many good books to use as spines out there) and supplement it with lots of good books for whatever time period we're studying. I know that in logic stage you're supposed to begin moving to primary source documents and I do keep that in mind when I make my book choices, but I still choose lots of novels. The outlining I saved for the subject of writing and now that she's up to speed with it, she doesn't mind transfering it over to her history once in awhile.

 

While I LOVED SOTW for the elementary grades, I really felt that it swept history with too broad a brush for logic stage, especially when one wants to dig deeper. My dd still likes to listen to the audio CDs though! :001_smile:

 

Best wishes in finding something that works for you!

[KathyBC]

Come to think of it, we started out doing this earlier in the year! But my eldest guy was running out of time in the day to get his other subjects done if he sat in on history with the youngers. So we stopped. But I miss that cozy feeling of us all gathered around engaged in these stories. Maybe I need to try to fit this in again.

 

They do have SOTW on CD which they all listen to from time to time in their rooms, yet I love the opportunity to be able to discuss and all be learning together. I have been missing this as they all grow and now I have my older guy studying biology and algebra (and a separate history book) and I just can't keep up with everyone :crying: YKWIM?

 

YES, I hear you about the lack of time, missing the together times, and not keeping up with everyone. :crying:

 

So ...... I simply chose a good spine (we're using the H.A. Guerber/Christine Miller books: http://www.nothingnewpress.com/guerber.shtml , but there are many good books to use as spines out there) and supplement it with lots of good books for whatever time period we're studying. I know that in logic stage you're supposed to begin moving to primary source documents and I do keep that in mind when I make my book choices, but I still choose lots of novels. The outlining I saved for the subject of writing and now that she's up to speed with it, she doesn't mind transfering it over to her history once in awhile.

 

 

:iagree: Maybe mix it up a bit? Have them do written narrations from SOTW or a historical novel sometimes, and reduce the amount of outlining? Writing from history is still a work in progress at our house, too.

[Colleen in NS]

The encyclopedias just feel like they hop around and they are just copying down stuff but not really "getting" what's going on. I wish we could all just do SOTW, but the olders have listened to it before and it just would seem like they should be beyond this already. I am reading SWB's "History of the Medieval World" in an effort to get it myself at a higher level than SOTW.

 

"I dunno who those guys were, it just said it in the book."

 

Are the children who are taking notes from the KF book also reading supplementary books that are interesting to them? I have my son do the list of facts from the 2-page spreads from KF, and he doesn't remember everything he took notes on, but he does dig deeper into the material when he has *other* books to read, that are related to the KF material and that are interesting to him. Biographies especially. And we try to read and talk about a primary source every few weeks, too. I try to glance at the KF book and reserve library books on topics/people/events in it, and sometimes I get him to do that, so that he is finding books he will like.

 

About the change from SOTW to KF - I have to admit, I think that once we get to high school, it will be a little easier to follow history again, with SWB's adult history series.

[Carla]

Are the children who are taking notes from the KF book also reading supplementary books that are interesting to them? I have my son do the list of facts from the 2-page spreads from KF, and he doesn't remember everything he took notes on, but he does dig deeper into the material when he has *other* books to read, that are related to the KF material and that are interesting to him. Biographies especially. And we try to read and talk about a primary source every few weeks, too. I try to glance at the KF book and reserve library books on topics/people/events in it, and sometimes I get him to do that, so that he is finding books he will like.

 

About the change from SOTW to KF - I have to admit, I think that once we get to high school, it will be a little easier to follow history again, with SWB's adult history series.

 

Yes, they do that, but we aren't getting to it every week. At least the literature for the Middle Ages is fun. They are enjoying that, both audiobooks and reading. They are big fans of Lord of the Rings and that genre of literature, so Middle Ages is right up their alley.

[M&M]

So I started in January following WTM recommendations for the Middle Ages History. My middle schooler is writing out facts from KHE (actually has been doing this since last January in Ancients), outlining some additional resources and my early high schooler started writing outlines using "History: The Definitive Visual Guide" from DK. My elementary guys are listening to me read SOTW volume 2.

 

I feel like the little guys and myself are the only ones getting anything out of it. The encyclopedias just feel like they hop around and they are just copying down stuff but not really "getting" what's going on. I wish we could all just do SOTW, but the olders have listened to it before and it just would seem like they should be beyond this already. I am reading SWB's "History of the Medieval World" in an effort to get it myself at a higher level than SOTW.

 

I did order "Human Odyssey" from K12 for my eldest (it hasn't come yet), because it sounds like it is written in more of a narrative style, maybe a bit predigested, but at least flowing better? I do try to discuss things with them, but it is hard to get it all in.

 

As an example, today my husband looked at my middle grade son's fact list (which he NEVER does) about the Islam spread in KHE and asked a couple of simple questions and my son was just like "I dunno who those guys were, it just said it in the book." It was just so... disappointing :leaving:.

 

Any thoughts?

 

It seems to me that what is lacking is your children actually interacting with the material. If they are writing down facts that mean nothing to them, they have no reason to remember anything.

 

Can they pick the facts that are most interesting to them and then read more about that? Are you discussing anything that they are reading? Are they taking those outlines and writing something from them? Logic and Rhetoric stage learning needs to have some kind of analysis and synthesis along with the reasearch. They need to connect the ideas to something, literature, a timeline, supplimental reading, etc.

 

I use TOG because I have 5 dc to teach and no time to pull all of that together, so I have that as my tool. You can use what you have, I still use SOTW and Kingfisher with my children. What I have learned from TOG and WTM that a student at this age should ..read, think/discuss, write. That is how things stick.

 

Are your children doing the same time in history or different? If they are doing the same, you could combine a discussion with them, go over some interesting things that they learned and then have them write something about it.

 

You just started doing this in January? Be patient, you are building skills it takes time for them to process everything. Sometimes we as teachers need to spend more time helping them through the process (which as a mom of many is a challenge for me!). I often forget that there is a learning curve, and I have to give my children time to adjust and give them room to grow into a skill.

[mcconnellboys]

I really think that doing that exercise is only meant to be an introduction to topics that then should be explored more fully in order to get anything out of the history study. I don't think it was ever intended that you just read an encyclopedia page and write down some facts or outline and call it done....

[Colleen in NS]

Yes, they do that, but we aren't getting to it every week. At least the literature for the Middle Ages is fun. They are enjoying that, both audiobooks and reading. They are big fans of Lord of the Rings and that genre of literature, so Middle Ages is right up their alley.

 

My son doesn't read a history supplement book every week, either. Life just doesn't flow that smoothly. I tried for a long time to keep up with what the WTM suggested as far as getting history/science/literature books from the library every week to go with whatever the "spine" reading was that week (in our case, KF), but I just can't do that anymore. I try to make it more of a "lifestyle" now. So, ds does read the KF spread most weeks and makes a list of facts, because these only take a few minutes to do. He puts dates on his timeline, and tells me what other seemingly interesting things were going on during the same time period. And then, comes time for reserving library books. This doesn't happen every week - we go in waves - but when I get on a reserving spree, I get a TON of books and then he immerses himself in books. And there usually are books around for him to read, even if I haven't reserved any more in a particular week. So, because there are books around, there is always something for him to read, and then the discussion part comes when he does one of his twice-weekly outlines ("let's pick something from history today, ds"), or when he reads a primary source (we use the discussion questions from WTM), or when he reads a biography (again, discussion questions from WTM and a narration or outline).

 

So all that to say, have you tried incorporating their history reading with their writing assignments? Then you'd be able to fold in reading and discussion each week. You could even look ahead by 2-3 weeks in KF, and reserve books for the upcoming weeks, or have your kids do that.

[robsiew]

Come to think of it, we started out doing this earlier in the year! But my eldest guy was running out of time in the day to get his other subjects done if he sat in on history with the youngers. So we stopped. But I miss that cozy feeling of us all gathered around engaged in these stories. Maybe I need to try to fit this in again.

 

They do have SOTW on CD which they all listen to from time to time in their rooms, yet I love the opportunity to be able to discuss and all be learning together. I have been missing this as they all grow and now I have my older guy studying biology and algebra (and a separate history book) and I just can't keep up with everyone :crying: YKWIM?

 

I'm easing my 4th grader into Logic stage history... this is what we do...

 

He listens to the appropriate chapter in SOTW (we're in 3). Then he reads the encyclopedia, does a summary, timeline and map work from SOTW. The encyclopedia ends up being more "filling in" than a "main text". The next day he chooses from library books I have provided, does additional reading (usually just a portion of a book) and does a summary on that. The way I stay "in contact" with him is when he works with me we do the discussion questions from the SOTW AG. Then we can discuss the story he heard and clear up any misunderstandings. It serves the purpose of needing my older ones to work independently, yet still giving us time to discuss a bit. However, that does require that I either listen to the CD or read the book beforehand!