Algebra question for those who use online programs--

[distancia]

Although dd is in College Algebra the question is the same, regardless of level of math.

 

dd is using an online math program. From what I understand, a brief explanation of the concept is shown, then an example along with how to solve the problem, and then a "now you try it!". At the "now you try it" section there is a one-line equation to solve. Next to the equation is a HINT button.

 

This is the method my daughter is using:

 

1) She reads about the concept

2) She looks at the example and takes notes

3) She comes to the first problem to solve and after reading the equation she immediately hits the HINT button.

4) The first step of how to solve is shown

5) dd copies this down in her notebook

6) dd then hits the HINT button next to the first step and the second step is revealed

7) dd copies this down into her notebook

8) dd then hits the HINT button next to the second step and the third step is revealed

 

You can see this goes on and on until all the solutions are revealed.

 

I asked my dd why she is hitting the HINT button and not just trying to solve the problem first.

 

She said that she didn't want to go through all the steps and get the answer wrong. She says she understands the problem after she is shown how to do it, and she has literally pages and pages of notes, copying each and every example shown, each step along the way.

 

Hubby says that after dd is introduced to the concept, then shown an example, she should be able to get through a problem at least part of the way without hitting the HINT button first. He says the fact that she is doing so is an indication that dd has substantial gaps in her math knowledge, or else she would have enough math background to give her a basis to work on.

 

DD keeps insisting that she understands how to do the problem once she has been shown how to do it. But maybe she doesn't understand the why behind it and can't make educated guesses to attack the problem?

 

She says when she sits down to the quiz it is all gibberish to her, despite the fact that she completely understood it the night before. [she learns the concept one day, takes a quiz on it the next] Does this mean she hasn't absorbed the concept as thoroughly as she needs to? She's spending 2 to 3 a hours a day on this subject!

 

Any ideas?

[regentrude]

I have encountered similar issues with my physics students. They would like to see somebody else solve a problem, copy the solution, think they understand it- and if they are asked to reproduce the very same problem the next day, they can not do it. They think if they would see only more worked out examples, they would do better - but they won't.

 

The only way to really learn is to work the problems yourself, make the mistakes yourself, get stuck, try different things, read the notes - this is a frustrating process, but the only way. One problem is that students tend to think they should be able to do all problems easily after reading the lesson or attending lecture - but actually, it is through the act of trying to solve the problems that they understand the material. The practice problems are the most important learning tool.

 

If your daughter says she understands the problems, have her work the problems for you without notes and explain every single step: why it is done, how it is done. If she can do this, she may have understood it - if she can not, she definitely has not understood it. If she can not do it on a quiz the next day, she has not understood what is going on but is trying to memorize techniques and fishing in the dark. You may need to have her go back to square one and redo everything until she achieves mastery.

 

If it was my student, I would make sure that she can not access the hints after giving the problem a fair try (and yes, some algebra problems take half an hour of even an hour). If that is not possible with the online program, I would switch programs. She is probably honestly believing she is understanding the concepts because it looks easy and clear if somebody else works the problem for you - but this is not true understanding. (Trust me, I encounter this every.single.semester...)

 

Btw, taking a quiz shortly after a new concept is introduced is meaningless. Math needs to be mastered so that the quiz can be taken a YEAR after the concept was introduced.

It looks as if the program she is using may not be a good fit for her because it enables her to get away without working the problems herself.

[kiana]

What regentrude said.

 

With the addendum that this is a great way to *think* that you understand it and then fail the exam due to being unable to work problems without hints.

 

I looked back at your earlier thread, and the comments you made about her being unable to do the problems on the quiz even with her notes from the homework are quite worrying. This indicates that she is *not* learning and applying, but rather using only enough pattern recognition to change the numbers in an already-worked example.

 

If she cannot work problems without hints, she will be unable to do problems which draw on skills from several different chapters for the exam, where there are no hints. You are already seeing this on the quizzes, and it will only get more difficult as the amount of material supposedly learned increases.

 

Unfortunately, she may refuse to believe you until it is too late.

[jlovebaker]

what online program you are using so we can avoid it! My kids would probably be inclined to do what your daughter is doing and I'd rather not go there ... :glare:

[distancia]

The program is MyMath Lab,College Algebra by Trigsted. It is not a bad program, per se, it is just that dd and I sat down to it this morning and she showed me some errors in it (!) that certainly leave a conscientious and careful student like my daughter baffled.

 

We called in hubby (PhD Chem) and he, too, sat down and looked over dd's copious notes and work; then the program, then saw where dd pointed out the errors (!) in the program. A less careful student would have gone "oh, well" and just glossed over it as an omission or worse, made an assumption. But dd is an absolute stickler for details and adherence to rules--as she says, "in math and science we should never assume anything", so when the writer says you can only use w rule in z types of problems, then goes on to use it in a k type of problem, dd gets very hung up on the contradiction and starts doubting herself. This self-doubt creates a tremendous lack of confidence her, and the more errors she sees (she would be a great textbook editor) the more she thinks she is wrong, when in fact, it is the writer who is wrong.

 

This program just won't work for my dd. She's almost 18 and has been complaining for years that her teachers don't always include important details, that they are arbitrary and inconsistent in the presentation of a topic, and that they rush over topics just to get the work done. Now I know why Singapore Math is so successful: slow and thorough does the trick. Fewer topics, more depth. It would have worked much better for my analytical daughter.

 

Well, at least it's not too late to try an alternative method. U of Idaho has some self-paced math courses using the Lial's textbook and DD can go slowly, thoroughly, and carefully, taking the time to have all her questions answered when she sees an inconsistency, contradiction, omission, or ambiguity in the text.

Edited February 5, 2011 by distancia

[Dana]

what online program you are using so we can avoid it! My kids would probably be inclined to do what your daughter is doing and I'd rather not go there ... :glare:

 

I'd imagine it's MyMathLab from Pearson Publishing.

I teach with it and really do love it.

 

However, students using the "Help Me Solve This" feature alone are doing the same thing as students who used to just copy the problem from the solutions manual. At least Help Me Solve This walks through a problem rather than showing the full solution from the start.

 

Regentrude's study tips are completely on target.

Also, students need to work a TON of problems. I tell my students that the online work is NOT enough to really learn the material.

 

In this case, I wouldn't think it's the software... but it's how the software is used.

 

And if it is MML, another study tip is to use the Sample Tests (go to Take a Test and there are chapter tests available) as a study guide. Take the test (not for a grade) and see how you do.

[Teachin'Mine]

I have encountered similar issues with my physics students. They would like to see somebody else solve a problem, copy the solution, think they understand it- and if they are asked to reproduce the very same problem the next day, they can not do it. They think if they would see only more worked out examples, they would do better - but they won't.

 

The only way to really learn is to work the problems yourself, make the mistakes yourself, get stuck, try different things, read the notes - this is a frustrating process, but the only way. One problem is that students tend to think they should be able to do all problems easily after reading the lesson or attending lecture - but actually, it is through the act of trying to solve the problems that they understand the material. The practice problems are the most important learning tool.

 

If your daughter says she understands the problems, have her work the problems for you without notes and explain every single step: why it is done, how it is done. If she can do this, she may have understood it - if she can not, she definitely has not understood it. If she can not do it on a quiz the next day, she has not understood what is going on but is trying to memorize techniques and fishing in the dark. You may need to have her go back to square one and redo everything until she achieves mastery.

 

If it was my student, I would make sure that she can not access the hints after giving the problem a fair try (and yes, some algebra problems take half an hour of even an hour). If that is not possible with the online program, I would switch programs. She is probably honestly believing she is understanding the concepts because it looks easy and clear if somebody else works the problem for you - but this is not true understanding. (Trust me, I encounter this every.single.semester...)

 

Btw, taking a quiz shortly after a new concept is introduced is meaningless. Math needs to be mastered so that the quiz can be taken a YEAR after the concept was introduced.

It looks as if the program she is using may not be a good fit for her because it enables her to get away without working the problems herself.

 

:iagree: Instead of just taking notes on the sample problems, she should be working those problems for herself, and checking back with their work to see that she's done it right. Then she should have enough of the concept to do the "try it yourself" problems herself. As Regentrude said, working through the problems and finding out where you go wrong is a big part of the learning. It's then through repetition of these problems that it becomes easy to solve these problems and the problems can become more complex. I also don't understand why they're quizzed the next day. A week later would make sense, but not the next day. 2 to 3 hours a day on Algebra without grasping the concepts and understanding is a total waste of time. It sounds more like copy work that she's doing. :001_huh:

 

You may want to find out just how much she's learned. Go back a week or so, and copy some of those problems down on a piece of paper, and have her solve them for you. If she's at a loss, then you may need to make some changes with her math program, or how she's using it.

[distancia]

Yes, it is Pearson MyMathLab. DD does a lesson a day: 1.6 one day (2-3 hours), 1.7 the next day (2-3 hours), 1.8 the next (2.3 hours), and then the next day reviews homework, goes over incorrect answers, etc. and the final day is the quiz of 1.6, 1.7, and 1.8. In other words: MTW is learn and do homework; R is review problems, F is quiz. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

The other thing DD pointed out to us is--and I am being specific--that in Section 1.6 Polynomial Inequalities and their associated "rules" are introduced. Next section, 1.7, introduces Compound Inequalities and those specific rules. Well, when DD went to take the quiz there was a Polynomial Inequality problem and guess what--they used a rule that was found in the Compound Inequalities section. DD says: Mom, nowhere in the text does it tell me that it is okay to use the union/intersection rule from 1.7 with the 1.6 type of problem (they are quite different problems).

 

Another problem on the quiz showed a solution that in no way resembled the solution in the example. DD says:they never told us we could do it that way! Why did they just arbitrarily decide to show us one way in the example and another way in the quiz solution? Why don't they stick with the way they showed us in the example, OR introduce us to the second method, also, saying in the example: this problem can be solved multiple ways.

 

DD needs something that is more clear on when to do something and when not to. This method isn't working.

Edited February 6, 2011 by distancia

[Dana]

Yes, it is Pearson MyMathLab. DD does a lesson a day: 1.6 one day (2-3 hours), 1.7 the next day (2-3 hours), 1.8 the next (2.3 hours), and then the next day reviews homework, goes over incorrect answers, etc. and the final day is the quiz of 1.6, 1.7, and 1.8. In other words: MTW is learn and do homework; R is review problems, F is quiz. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

The other thing DD pointed out to us is--and I am being specific--that in Section 1.6 Polynomial Inequalities and their associated "rules" are introduced. Next section, 1.7, introduces Compound Inequalities and those specific rules. Well, when DD went to take the quiz there was a Polynomial Inequality problem and guess what--they used a rule that was found in the Compound Inequalities section. DD says: Mom, nowhere in the text does it tell me that it is okay to use the union/intersection rule from 1.7 with the 1.6 type of problem (they are quite different problems).

 

Another problem on the quiz showed a solution that in no way resembled the solution in the example. DD says:they never told us we could do it that way! Why did they just arbitrarily decide to show us one way in the example and another way in the quiz solution? Why don't they stick with the way they showed us in the example, OR introduce us to the second method, also, saying in the example: this problem can be solved multiple ways.

 

DD needs something that is more clear on when to do something and when not to. This method isn't working.

 

MML is the software used with all of Pearson's math texts. I've used 3 of them. I have found errors in the software on occasion (just like in any text) and when I've reported them to the publisher, they've made changes. In one case, an example used a technique that hadn't been taught yet (using systems of equations to solve a word problem when systems were still a few chapters ahead). Your daughter can question her instructor when it seems that something isn't right. I don't know if students have the "contact the publisher" button with their access.

 

I think MML is the best thing I've seen for helping students to learn. I have it as a requirement in all my classes that I can. However, it's crucial that it be a supplement and not the primary instruction.

 

My approach would be to read the textbook first, doing all examples on scratch paper. Most of the texts will have an example, then will have some example where the student can try a problem similar to the example with the answer immediately available. This shows whether they understand the basic concept.

 

Reading a math text is SLOW going if you're doing it correctly. I read fiction and nonfiction very quickly. It only takes a couple of hours to read most books. I once spent about 3 hours on 5 pages of math. Lots and lots and lots of scratch paper and trying to understand examples. Then I got to start the problem set.

 

Texts now are written better with explanations and reasons than when I was in school. Many of them are very clear with the whys behind the work of a problem. Once you've gone through the text, working examples, then start the text problems. Pick at least a few odds from each topic - and aim for some of the tougher ones - not the ones at the start only. The student solutions manual will have step-by-step solutions. Sometimes you can buy it separately; sometimes it's available online (check under Student Tools or ask the instructor if they can make it available). Correct any problems and try to figure out where the mistake was.

 

Only then should you go to the online work. At this point, the online work should go much smoother. Use Help Me Solve It or watch the videos for any topics. You don't want to use only MML. It is a great resource - but it should not be the only resource. USE the text.

 

As for the specific quiz question... anything you learn later SHOULD apply to things earlier. You don't want to see math as just isolated rules for solving a certain type of problem - you want the big picture (thus the importance of the whys behind the work). Is there anything in the text from 1.7 saying how this can now be applied to 1.6, for instance?

 

I hope this gives some ideas on ways to work with the software.

[distancia]

We are getting closer to understanding the way this child's brain thinks! It's like pulling teeth around here, trying to get the information out of our daughter, she's so frustrated. She's not talking to me anymore (!) so I am going by what is in her notebook--and her notebook is FILLED with stuff! Here' goes:

 

When she goes over her errors and looking over solution, she sees that there are more steps in the solution then she wrote, and her mind says "I didn't know we could do that! They never told us we could use that method!" This is why she says from Algebra I (on up) has always seemed so arbitrary to her: people are doing things without telling you when you can (or cannot) do something. She believes Math is based upon rules, but the rules seem to be arbitraily applied: at times you can solve it this way, another time you can solve it that way, and there is no explanation WHY you chose one method over another.

 

Here is a prime example from her MML work:

 

She solved one problem with a factoring method that resembled something like this q(q + y + z) while the book's solution looked like q^2 + ( q x y) + (q x z). DD flipped out, because in the previous problem the book solved it the way SHE wrote it. So she tries their method and lo and behold, the next problem does it the other way! The step-by-step solutions are not consistent and there is no given reason why they keep changing. So, being a "rules" person, she can't understand why the book doesn't explain, in the middle of the examples, that a different way of doing the same type problem is shown. Even though her answer may be correct, she starts to wonder what the heck is going on? Is she missing out on something? Why don't they telling her why they keep doing things differently? The answers are right doing it one way, why play around and do it another way? Why don't they explain the sudden reason for showing it a different way?

 

This makes her very anxious and then she starts making careless errors.

 

Any ideas on how to proceed? As she says, "math is supposed to be based on logic, but this arbitrary changing solutions around seems illogical".

Edited February 6, 2011 by distancia
title changed because problem is being pinpointed

[AngieW in Texas]

Most problems can be solved more than one way. I have actually made it a point in my physics class to try to show more than one way to solve the problems. One way is not any less true than another. Sometimes one way is easier than another because of the numbers involved.

 

The varying ways to solve the problems are probably just to show that that particular type of problem can be solved more than one way.

[distancia]

Most problems can be solved more than one way....

The varying ways to solve the problems are probably just to show that that particular type of problem can be solved more than one way.

 

That's DD's point, Angie--how would your student know this? How would a student differentiate between an intentional alternate method of doing something versus a mistake?

 

As DD say, we can't assume anything until we are told. So, who does the telling, and when?

[Jann in TX]

and she is NOT learning--or has not learned-- the basic principles (logic) of algebra.

 

Looking at solutions or hints on OCCASION can be a good supplement to learning... but I caution that students who rely on these too much will not learn how to think for themselves.

 

Algebra is kind of like driving directions. You want to go from point A to point B. You ask 3 different people directions-- and you get 3 DIFFERENT sets of directions... which way is best? All three will get you to the same destination... Most people will choose the way that makes sense to THEM based on THEIR previous experience.

 

I suggest that your dd go back and rework all or parts of Algebra 2-- without access to a solutions manual or 'hints'. If she works a problem incorrectly she needs to LEARN how to find and correct her errors. Once she is confident with her basic algebra skills she will be more confident when she is exposed to multiple methods-- a 'solutions' manual will only show ONE method of working a problem-- it may or may not be the same as in the text, in the lesson or the method that she used... it takes maturity to understand that it is possible for all of these ways to be EQUALLY valid.

 

I teach from the Lial texts. In Introductory Algebra students are exposed to 3 different methods of factoring trinomials (non radical answers). I teach a completely DIFFERENT method (similar to how Singapore Math teaches it). I do ask the students to learn my method first-- after that they can go back and look at the methods in the text... I have NEVER had a student use one of the text's methods-- but they are free to use whatever method works for them.

 

In Lial's Intermediate Algebra the text teaches 2 methods for dividing complex fractions (and I model both in my lessons). Both are equally valid. Students are free to choose the method that works for them... many of my students use a combination of methods-- and that is just fine (if 'their' method leads them to the correct answer using correct logic).

[distancia]

Jann, I have PM'd you.

[regentrude]

It seems like your daughter does not understand what she is doing. She is trying to memorize and model examples, but has no clear understanding of the WHY behind each step.

 

This is why she says from Algebra I (on up) has always seemed so arbitrary to her: people are doing things without telling you when you can (or cannot) do something. She believes Math is based upon rules, but the rules seem to be arbitraily applied: at times you can solve it this way, another time you can solve it that way, and there is no explanation WHY you chose one method over another.

 

Here is a prime example from her MML work:

 

She solved one problem with a factoring method that resembled something like this q(q + y + z) while the book's solution looked like q^2 + ( q x y) + (q x z). DD flipped out, because in the previous problem the book solved it the way SHE wrote it.

 

 

If she does not recognize that the two expressions are equivalent, she has not understood basic factoring from early in algebra 1.

 

Any ideas on how to proceed? As she says, "math is supposed to be based on logic, but this arbitrary changing solutions around seems illogical".

I'm afraid I would have my child go back and redo algebra 1 with a program where memorizing and mimicking will not get results, but which forces her to develop conceptual understanding.

 

What did you do to address the issues she voiced beginning with algebra 1?

[Sandragood1]

My ds has had similar issues with Algebra - we are on program #3.

 

The problem was (IMHO) intellectual laziness. He was used to "getting it" with little effort so when he actually had to work and really think, he retreated to memorizing algorithms without understanding the underlying methods.

 

We started with LoF. It wasn't sticking. We tried an online program. Better, but not complete. Finally, we are using Foerster's. I think the fact that he has no "help" button and that *I* am checking his work (not just his answers) has made a big difference. Also, I require 100% scores on small problem sets, 90+% on large problem sets - to break the habit of getting "close enough".

 

I'd suggest a textbook for her and a solutions manual (not just answer key) for you. She needs to break some bad habits and gain confidence to do it on her own. It may happen faster than you think given all the previous exposure to Algebra that she has had.

 

Good luck,

 

Sandra

[distancia]

What did you do to address the issues she voiced beginning with algebra 1?

 

She was in a gifted program and took Algebra 1 in 8th grade. She got a B with LOTS of non-math related extra credit. She goofed off lot in 8th grade.

 

We insisted that she take Algebra 1 again in public high school. She took it for the first 1/2 year, 90 minutes a day, with a series of substitutes. Again she earned a B. Geometry the next year--C. In 11th grade Fall she took Alg 2 but it was a self-paced, online program PLATO http://www.plato.com/Secondary-Solutions/Online-Learning/PLATO-Courses.aspxwith no classroom instruction, just a classroom monitor. She really liked the program and got a B for the first semester. The 2nd semester she was very ill, homeschooled, and didn't do much math. Taught herself College Math in late spring and CLEPed it.

 

In July 2010 I had her take the ALEKS test and there were far fewer gaps then I thought there would be. Most of her pie was filled up! I did NOT want her to think she could breeze right through that program, too, so I clicked her out of it and told her we were going to use another method.

 

I had her go back and start review all over again, from Pre-Algebra onwards. She hated me. She did this using MUS. She did quite well in all levels and (I've just looked over her papers) except for careless errors. She had never learned roots and radicals so she taught herself. MUS worked very well for her in Geometry, because when she re-took her SATs the Geometry section was her 2nd highest score, when before it had been her lowest.

 

In October she began the PLATO program she used before in public school. She loves this program because it is uncluttered and gives her immediate feedback. It tells her just what she needs to know--the rules--and how to solve a problem. She gets 90s in it. By Thanksgiving she had covered the first part of Alg 2 all over again, same as she had done the previous year.

 

She then took her SATs and scored 40 points higher (in some cases 60 points higher) than she needed to place into College Algebra online with MyMathLab. She thought is would be similar to the PLATO system she was using and she would be able to get right through it.

 

I'm looking at her 12/10 SAT results now. She scored perfectly in Data Analysis, Probability, and Statistics. Numbers and Operations: she got the easy and hard ones correct, a few mediums she had trouble with. Geometry, everything she got wrong was in the hard. Algebra: Easy, totally correct. Difficult: totally correct. Medium: far more wrong than right. What the heck???!!!

 

Now I'm looking over her SAT from 11/09 to see if there is a pattern. In Algebra she did most of her easy and ALL of her mediums correctly then. It's the hard ones she missed. This past December she can do the hards but not the mediums??? Hmm. So that's telling me it's something in late Algebra 1? Either that or a concept that she just isn't getting.

 

That's the story thus far. She turns 18 in a week, she's got enough credit hours under her belt to be a college sophomore, and I just can't imagine confronting her with going back to Alg 1! I am thinking maybe of taking her to Sylvan to have her diagnosed for her weak areas (?) and then working on those.

 

Is there a good, short, accurate test to see her deficiencies? Something is tripping her up and we know it is in Algebra.

Edited February 7, 2011 by distancia

[regentrude]

I don't know enough to figure out exactly WHAT her problem is - maybe Jann can help you there.

I don't, however, consider the SAT a good tool to measure algebra mastery. The question are formulaic, cover only a few very specific areas, and they are multiple choice - which means that you can exclude answers for certain reasons, and that you also could just try out and see what answer works without actually being able to work the problem.

 

 

" It tells her just what she needs to know--the rules--and how to solve a problem."

 

But that is just not enough. Because unless you understand WHY the rules work and WHY you're supposed to work it this way, you don't understand algebra. You jump through a hoop - and if the hoop is a bit out of place (that is, if the problem is a bit different from the practice problems), you miss.

 

I think Sylvan might be a good idea.

[distancia]

My ds has had similar issues with Algebra - we are on program #3.

 

The problem was (IMHO) intellectual laziness. He was used to "getting it" with little effort so when he actually had to work and really think, he retreated to memorizing algorithms without understanding the underlying methods.

 

I'd suggest a textbook for her and a solutions manual (not just answer key) for you. She needs to break some bad habits and gain confidence to do it on her own. It may happen faster than you think given all the previous exposure to Algebra that she has had.

 

Good luck,

 

Sandra

 

Sandra, you might be right. If she can solve the difficult problems in Algebra then why not mediums? Because she looks at them and says "easy, I can do that" and just whips through.

 

And now with the College Algebra she can solve some of these problems in 2 or 3 steps, but when she has to sit down and go step by step and show all her work she gets tangled up, anxious, confuses herself, doubtful...

 

That's why I am thinking of going back to a traditional textbook as you suggested. And a teacher (not me) who she can ask questions of.

 

 

But that is just not enough. Because unless you understand WHY the rules work and WHY you're supposed to work it this way, you don't understand algebra. You jump through a hoop - and if the hoop is a bit out of place (that is, if the problem is a bit different from the practice problems), you miss.

 

I think Sylvan might be a good idea.

 

Agreed. I'll make a call tomorrow morning. Then I can stop posting all these troublesome questions and move on to something more enjoyable--like my income tax return!

Edited February 7, 2011 by distancia

[AngieW in Texas]

I think your best bet would be to see if you can get her a tutor to actually teach her the math rather than having her learn from a computer program. A tutor can adapt to her in a way that a computer program can't. She can ask the tutor questions and find out the hows and whys rather than just memorizing the formulas.

[kiana]

Agreed. I'll make a call tomorrow morning. Then I can stop posting all these troublesome questions and move on to something more enjoyable--like my income tax return!

 

Brilliant idea.

 

A human is SO helpful compared to a computer. Good luck!