Bringing Karen's mention of essay-writing to a new thread...

[Corraleno]

However, on further discussion with educators, from elementary to high school and college professors, the consensus seems to be, that until the logic stage, or about grade 7, MOST kids are really are not capable of original writing. Interesting, because I know that outside of an occasional multi-sentence answer on a written test and an occasional book report, I really didn't do much writing in my extremely good, country school education, until I hit 7th grade!

 

My kids are encountering curriculum in writing, that details writing research papers in a way that I did not encounter until my College Bound English writing class in my junior year of high school! And yes, they are doing it, but it seems like it is stilted, uncomfortable, and poorly done!

I agree with this. I think writing is one of many areas where waiting until kids are ready often means that you can teach something in a few weeks, without tears or boredom, that you would have to spend months or years "practicing" at younger ages. I've mentioned before the documentary I saw that compared the UK system, which starts formal education at 4, with a Scandinavian system that started at 7, and was only half-day until 9. The kids ended up at exactly the same level, in terms of reading, writing, and math skills. All those extra years of drill and practice, while Scandinavian kids were playing and building and painting, had no academic benefit.

 

Jackie

[Colleen in NS]

traditional/wtm-ish type assignments AND more creative/out-of-the-box stuff? How do you create that balance within a week? How do you decide how much of each? I'm formula woman here. I pick amounts (outline one chapter of science, write one book report, do...) and then I just switch around what subjects or material they apply to.

 

That's a really clear standard, essays by the end of 8th grade, and that seems do-able. Good point that it depends on the student.

 

If you are looking for suggestions for a weekly routine (that you can tweak to fit in creative writing), and ideas on what skills to aim for by the end of such-n-such a time period, then I'd recommend re-listening (I think you already did, didn't you?) to all four of SWB's writing/lit. analysis lectures. Oh, and having a look at 8FilltheHeart's plan!

 

I wrote this in response to the two quotes above it. It seemed to me that you were just looking for advice on how to create a routine that would incorporate outlines/narrations, along with creative writing projects, each week. And I thought you were looking for guidelines for certain ends-of-time-periods (you mention end of grade 8 for an example). I knew you already knew about the recommendations for outlines and narrations themselves - but I know there are suggestions (which can be tweaked!) in the lectures for how many of this and that each week, and for what skills could be useful to have at the end of grades 4, 8, and 12. I figured you could take *those* and create a plan for yourself. I wasn't saying "You should do the exact lecture plan of how many of this and that each week." I was thinking, maybe outline once a week/once every two weeks, narrate once a week/once every two weeks, two creative writing projects a week. Or something like that. But I think I might be misunderstanding what you are looking for.

 

I think maybe SWB's experience, though good, is too narrow. She has her own kids, one of whom is on-track to become a professional writer and another who is pencil-phobic, more kids, and then of course the college students. That's not the same as a vast elementary or middle school teaching experience, kwim? It doesn't equip her to have lots of perspectives on how you make writing work, on a day-to-day basis with specific, quirky kids.

 

I think she is qualified because she was educated in skills by a mother who did have teaching experience (and by the books JW authors, like FLL, I figure it was elementary teaching). I imagine JW has privately tutored a quirky kid or two in her time, as well. And I'll bet SWB collaborates a lot with her mother.

 

But anyway, good luck figuring things out with your dd. I am sorry that I seem to be misunderstanding what you are looking for.

[justamouse]

I agree with this. I think writing is one of many areas where waiting until kids are ready often means that you can teach something in a few weeks, without tears or boredom, that you would have to spend months or years "practicing" at younger ages. I've mentioned before the documentary I saw that compared the UK system, which starts formal education at 4, with a Scandinavian system that started at 7, and was only half-day until 9. The kids ended up at exactly the same level, in terms of reading, writing, and math skills. All those extra years of drill and practice, while Scandinavian kids were playing and building and painting, had no academic benefit.

 

Jackie

 

Ds 11 is a leftie and displays some very quirky traits that I see in aspies. Writing was at first an act of torture for him. I have done everything late with him-we only did narrations and little bits of copywork up until he was 9/10. That said, he read *profusely* and narrates back to me almost word for word-he loves it. I laid off and now, at 11, he is by far my most gifted student yet. This kid is going places and most days he scares the crap outa me. I am forever never enough for him. He draws cartoons and makes stories to go along with. He makes robots with his Lego NXT, makes movies and writes out stories for them, too.

 

Now I ask for a summary of a book and within minutes he pounds one out.

 

I didn't learn to write in school so I have no comparison. But I think writing down my own process for you all might be enlightening to how your kids may want to approach writing.

 

I start with a very large collage. I have this mood in my head along with a character, maybe a line, and I start gathering items that draw me. I then spend a few days creating the collage, and making a music list. (music serves as a transitional device, too) I write out character biographies, pages and pages of character notes and scene notes. Sometimes they are 80-90 pages. I have one story I've yet to write that I basically have a bible of its world including maps that I've drawn. then I will make an outline of the emotional arcs and turning points of the characters, put it all on sticky notes and tack them onto a large grid. Only then do I sit down to write and by then the collage has been fiddled with and shown me things that I wouldn't have otherwise realized.

 

I have other friends who outline every chapter, I have friends who sit down and write with no preparation but a mental movie flowing through their brain.

 

Granted, fiction and essays and papers are different, but everyone has a different process.

 

You COULD start a character collage with a child, show them how to overlap images and give them a buffet of pictures and textures (glitters, netting, buttons) and when they are done start asking questions. That could easily develop a storyline and then work on writing it out. It could be a whole semester project with the end being it getting printed out and bound at Staples.

 

But again, discussion (with children) is the precursor to writing. Why does you character not like that man? What did he do? Why does that matter to the protagonist? How can he overcome this problem? Will anyone help him? ....

 

The thing is teaching like this though is that you will not be able to leave the student to his own devices until later. They have to be guided through with discussion.

Edited January 24, 2011 by justamouse

[littlebug42]

Thanks for this thread. Writing and the acceleration of teaching it in ps is a problem for me. The one year that we did our K12 virtual academy and they wanted my 2nd grader to write a complete 5 point paragraph, I threw in the towel. I have been going with a much slower approach as I want my children to be able to write competent sentences. Honestly, I did not learn the technical aspects of paragraph writing until I was a freshman in high school. 9th grade was spent on paragraph writing, 10th grade essay writing, 11th grade writing a research paper and 12th grade AP English focused on literary analysis.

 

Now, however, I am faced with a child that will be entering 6th grade at a public school in a year and a half and I know I have to teach her things that we have not done thus far. I do plan to continue with younger child at the slower pace. I am not looking forward to it but I know I have to give Sweet Pea the tools that she will need to succeed in ps.

[PeterPan]

Colleen, I think what you're saying is I need to go read through grade 8 and then the high school section of WTM! I've only kept up to where we are (6th) and a bit more. I'll get moving on it. You're right, I'm not that far off, and what you outlined is exactly what I'm thinking. We're outlining the science text, which is going fabulously for us. I was having this nutty thoughts of whether we also needed to outline for *history*, but we just don't. We're doing weekly book reports and topic paragraphs. It's just having a thing more that I call "writing" as opposed to quantity builders (which is how I view the rest). And it's not even so much for this year as for next year, when I had been planning to go a lot more out of the box. Guess I was just baring all my insecurities. I'll go back and read the rest of the book, honest. I've been in denial about her growing up, and now it's time.

 

Purple Sage's post on the origins of the school progression of writing fascinate me. When you pair them with what Karen is saying (that real writers don't write that way), you really start to get this curious picture of factory education at its worst...

 

Well y'all keep talking, and I'll keep listening! :)

 

PS. WTM is still pretty single-faceted and in the box on its writing. My kid NEVER ran to me wanting to notebook the way she describes, lol. But when my dd does something like antiquing paper to write a parchment letter to Tolkein (and in character), that goes over big. I saved that one. :)

Edited January 24, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Justamouse-The One Year Adventure Novel curriculum does this method of writing development you describe. I never realized people actually write this way, and it hadn't occurred to me you could shorten it, duh. Interestingly, years ago we did some short story (more like snippet) writing with a little british curriculum of story prompts where they had you do something similar. I just hadn't made the connection on the technique. Dd did very well with it, precisely I think because it helped her build visual images, get it all in her head, and own it.

[Guest]

I start with a very large collage. I have this mood in my head along with a character, maybe a line, and I start gathering items that draw me. I then spend a few days creating the collage, and making a music list. (music serves as a transitional device, too) I write out character biographies, pages and pages of character notes and scene notes. Sometimes they are 80-90 pages. I have one story I've yet to write that I basically have a bible of its world including maps that I've drawn. then I will make an outline of the emotional arcs and turning points of the characters, put it all on sticky notes and tack them onto a large grid. Only then do I sit down to write and by then the collage has been fiddled with and shown me things that I wouldn't have otherwise realized.

 

You COULD start a character collage with a child, show them how to overlap images and give them a buffet of pictures and textures (glitters, netting, buttons) and when they are done start asking questions. That could easily develop a storyline and then work on writing it out. It could be a whole semester project with the end being it getting printed out and bound at Staples.

 

This is really, really, utterly cool. I don't write fiction, so I don't have a lot of information about how people go about what they do before they draft; once the drafting starts, I have a whole lot of information gained from reading biographies and interviews of authors. The creative process before then either seems mysterious and cloudy, or like Athena springing from Zeus fully formed (remember J.K. Rowling saying Harry popped into her head fully formed on a train ride?).

 

This sounds a lot like a movie storyboard and I like how visual and even tactile it can be for kids who think in that way. It reminds me of Jackie's reference to graphic story formats too.

[5LittleMonkeys]

You COULD start a character collage with a child, show them how to overlap images and give them a buffet of pictures and textures (glitters, netting, buttons) and when they are done start asking questions. That could easily develop a storyline and then work on writing it out. It could be a whole semester project with the end being it getting printed out and bound at Staples.

 

 

 

This could easily be used to write about a science or history topic as well, couldn't it? This sounds very much like what dd does. She makes collages of her topics, makes dioramas and little notes and sketches in a topic journal and then she will write a longer paper. She includes bits of information that she has highlighted in each of the different components. It must be her way of ordering the information before she writes. I suppose those things are her outline.

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen, I think what you're saying is I need to go read through grade 8 and then the high school section of WTM! ...I'll go back and read the rest of the book, honest.

 

No, no, no! I said the lectures! :D I thought you had talked about them here on the boards, so I thought you had listened to them before. Maybe I'm mistaken. Anyway, I don't know how to describe it when I'm running on very little sleep right now, but they are different from the book. They take all the suggestions for writing that are in the book, and meld them all into a flexible plan (where you are NOT doing narrations 5 times a week, plus dictations, plus 3 or 4 outlines, or whatever), where you can actually see the thread all the way through. And there are suggestions for routines, and suggestions for what you might want to aim for by the end of such-n-such a period.

 

Incidentally, I found out today that a girl I know locally is one of the beta testers for WWS (the book that comes after WWE), so she let me have a look at the instructor book and the student book. Gosh, it's so detailed in how to teach certain skills, yet the student won't be producing scads of outlines and narrations every week - even less than was suggested in the lectures! I saw little comments here and there that made me think, "Wow, this'll be so helpful in the student's thinking, and make it even easier!" It's way slowed down from my former image, from the book, of churning out all those outlines and narrations every week.

 

As for the creative side of things, well sure, go ahead and fit in among your routine for outlines/narrations!

[elegantlion]

 

I didn't learn to write in school so I have no comparison. But I think writing down my own process for you all might be enlightening to how your kids may want to approach writing.

 

I start with a very large collage. I have this mood in my head along with a character, maybe a line, and I start gathering items that draw me. I then spend a few days creating the collage, and making a music list. (music serves as a transitional device, too) I write out character biographies, pages and pages of character notes and scene notes. Sometimes they are 80-90 pages. I have one story I've yet to write that I basically have a bible of its world including maps that I've drawn. then I will make an outline of the emotional arcs and turning points of the characters, put it all on sticky notes and tack them onto a large grid. Only then do I sit down to write and by then the collage has been fiddled with and shown me things that I wouldn't have otherwise realized.

 

I have other friends who outline every chapter, I have friends who sit down and write with no preparation but a mental movie flowing through their brain.

 

Granted, fiction and essays and papers are different, but everyone has a different process.

 

You COULD start a character collage with a child, show them how to overlap images and give them a buffet of pictures and textures (glitters, netting, buttons) and when they are done start asking questions. That could easily develop a storyline and then work on writing it out. It could be a whole semester project with the end being it getting printed out and bound at Staples.

 

But again, discussion (with children) is the precursor to writing. Why does you character not like that man? What did he do? Why does that matter to the protagonist? How can he overcome this problem? Will anyone help him? ....

 

The thing is teaching like this though is that you will not be able to leave the student to his own devices until later. They have to be guided through with discussion.

 

 

:thud: (the sound of my head hitting the table) I write in similar fashion, although on a smaller scale. I tend to start the draft then collect the info as it pours into my head.

 

I've never thought of approaching non-creative writing in his manner, but it makes sense.

 

This is really, really, utterly cool. I don't write fiction, so I don't have a lot of information about how people go about what they do before they draft; once the drafting starts, I have a whole lot of information gained from reading biographies and interviews of authors. The creative process before then either seems mysterious and cloudy, or like Athena springing from Zeus fully formed (remember J.K. Rowling saying Harry popped into her head fully formed on a train ride?).

 

This sounds a lot like a movie storyboard and I like how visual and even tactile it can be for kids who think in that way. It reminds me of Jackie's reference to graphic story formats too.

 

(lightbulb moment!) It is very cool. Ds has worked with storyboards before but we've never formally brought it to the classroom. Why not?

 

This could easily be used to write about a science or history topic as well, couldn't it? This sounds very much like what dd does. She makes collages of her topics, makes dioramas and little notes and sketches in a topic journal and then she will write a longer paper. She includes bits of information that she has highlighted in each of the different components. It must be her way of ordering the information before she writes. I suppose those things are her outline.

 

YES! Wow, just when I was about to sign off for the night. Thank you.

[justamouse]

The creative process before then either seems mysterious and cloudy, or like Athena springing from Zeus fully formed (remember J.K. Rowling saying Harry popped into her head fully formed on a train ride?).

 

This sounds a lot like a movie storyboard and I like how visual and even tactile it can be for kids who think in that way. It reminds me of Jackie's reference to graphic story formats too.

 

Every writer I knows pulls it in differently and if two are alike, they diverge in places. It's all how people process. Some characters are so strong they come to you whole and don't let you go till their story is told. Writing them is almost like channeling. I'm glad what I wrote resonated with you. Talking about the hows is like catching mist which I think is why most people focus on the scaffolding. :001_smile:

 

You would love Elizabeth Gilbert's TED talk on nurturing creativity.

 

 

 

 

This could easily be used to write about a science or history topic as well, couldn't it? This sounds very much like what dd does. She makes collages of her topics, makes dioramas and little notes and sketches in a topic journal and then she will write a longer paper. She includes bits of information that she has highlighted in each of the different components. It must be her way of ordering the information before she writes. I suppose those things are her outline.

 

That IS a fantastic application. She's making those connections in her head and putting it on paper in a very tactile way. It serves them so well.

[Melissa in CA]

:lurk5: Don't have time to read everything right now, but great discussion so far!!

[PeterPan]

Colleen, I have the beta stuff for the new WWE (WWS?) and haven't done much with it. I took one look, realized it wouldn't fit dd, and closed the file. That was earlier in the year, and dd is at a very different place now. I could give it another look. Also I have the writing lecture notes from the convention. They had just slipped my mind, thanks!

 

You know what's funny? As I talk with you, it seems like the constant refrain is quantity (quantity in math, quantity in writing). Right now I'm trying a bit to err toward the quantity side on writing, precisely because I think we have an issue there, just in how in language flows out. So I'm actually more concerned about quantity than I am about rhetorical devices or analysis. I can bring that in later using the resources I have, and I'm not worried about that. With the rhetoric materials I've looked at, it makes perfect sense how they apply to writing. It's just this whole in-between stage that is proving challenging, getting her proficiency to where she's READY to start applying the rhetoric stuff (someday).

 

I thought about this a little more, as I sat here editing and deleting, and all of a sudden it hit me that quantity IS what SWB was talking about at the convention, lots of short, daily assignments. That's why I didn't walk away with a whole structured paradigm or progression, even though it was there (and will be in my notes hopefully!). The big thing I took away was to keep doing lots of little assignments, constantly working on it. And that has been pretty formative in my thinking, because I DO think that is what dd needs. I don't know that every dc does, but she does. But with her it can't be ho-hum. Like today she drew a proposed coin and wrote a letter to the US mint for a journaling prompt. That's her, and she just gobbles it up.

 

I've been really inspired by all this btw, and I've been thinking about ways to get CW Homer more out of the box. Nothing says you HAVE to do it their way. I mean the assignments really are pretty straightforward. I'm going to see if some of Karen's ideas (change the audience, change the narrator, change the perspective, change the material) can help. It's kind of a catch-22 with dd. She squashes under regular assignments both because they're boring (or worse yet pointless) AND because they're hard for her and task her issues. So it's an unfortunate mix.

 

Well how we got on that, I don't know! Anyways, I think sometimes I just need courage to do what is coming from my gut.

[swimmermom3]

Colleen, I have the beta stuff for the new WWE (WWS?) and haven't done much with it. I took one look, realized it wouldn't fit dd, and closed the file. That was earlier in the year, and dd is at a very different place now. I could give it another look. Also I have the writing lecture notes from the convention. They had just slipped my mind, thanks!

 

You know what's funny? As I talk with you, it seems like the constant refrain is quantity (quantity in math, quantity in writing). Right now I'm trying a bit to err toward the quantity side on writing, precisely because I think we have an issue there, just in how in language flows out. So I'm actually more concerned about quantity than I am about rhetorical devices or analysis. I can bring that in later using the resources I have, and I'm not worried about that. With the rhetoric materials I've looked at, it makes perfect sense how they apply to writing. It's just this whole in-between stage that is proving challenging, getting her proficiency to where she's READY to start applying the rhetoric stuff (someday).

 

I thought about this a little more, as I sat here editing and deleting, and all of a sudden it hit me that quantity IS what SWB was talking about at the convention, lots of short, daily assignments. That's why I didn't walk away with a whole structured paradigm or progression, even though it was there (and will be in my notes hopefully!). The big thing I took away was to keep doing lots of little assignments, constantly working on it. And that has been pretty formative in my thinking, because I DO think that is what dd needs. I don't know that every dc does, but she does. But with her it can't be ho-hum. Like today she drew a proposed coin and wrote a letter to the US mint for a journaling prompt. That's her, and she just gobbles it up.

 

I've been really inspired by all this btw, and I've been thinking about ways to get CW Homer more out of the box. Nothing says you HAVE to do it their way. I mean the assignments really are pretty straightforward. I'm going to see if some of Karen's ideas (change the audience, change the narrator, change the perspective, change the material) can help. It's kind of a catch-22 with dd. She squashes under regular assignments both because they're boring (or worse yet pointless) AND because they're hard for her and task her issues. So it's an unfortunate mix.

 

Well how we got on that, I don't know! Anyways, I think sometimes I just need courage to do what is coming from my gut.

 

Post 13, did I not suggest this? Did you not say later that it was NOT what your daughter needed. I am so confused. Or did my choice of writer instructors scare you?:D

[PeterPan]

Swimmer, I went and reread your posts to grapple with them and make sure I hadn't missed what you were trying to communicate. So you use writing prompts to work on your target skill, figure of lit, whatever. I had thought of that and tried it with my dd, since I would have suited me well as a dc. She melted and got all flustered. I'm thinking she's just not there yet. Either it's a never going to or a maturity issue or that the leap was too hard or something. Actually, what we concluded was that writing is hard enough for her (not "with ease" as you described, not at this point in her life, maybe someday sigh) that combining the actual act of writing with content development AND synthesis or application was just too much. So I decided we would separate them back out, and we're all happier. So today she outlined part of her science chapter and wrote for her daily writing prompt. In this one she created a coin and wrote a letter to the US Mint. It went over big, so we're all happy.

 

So yes, we write from prompts now. Yours is a more sophisticated approach, and I enjoyed hearing about it. I also see that you use whatever you're reading about to inspire you as you discuss writing with your kids. That too makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately, my reading these days is more in the realm of how to deal with sensory problems, OT, and learning differences. If I were reading books on other topics, it would be laudable. I read a book by Rafe Esquith that I discussed with her to show why she has to do all her math. Does that count? :) Hehe, it will come. I think you're a step or two ahead of us. Still, fascinating to hear.

 

So now I think I've figured out what you were confused about. To me there is the quantity/frequency issue of SWB's approach and the methodology or what she has you writing. I separate out the two. My dd, when she was in 1st or 2nd grade, asked me why I didn't read the book myself if I so wanted to know, and that was the end of subject narrations for us. I've spent years determining whether that was a problem or an indicator of a readiness for something different or both (or neither). I'm with Jackie on the pragmatic side that at a certain point it doesn't matter. I have some last ditch efforts I'm making with her now to see if I can improve her ease with expressive language, and at that point I'm going to let her creative side take over a lot more fully. The balance, I don't know.

 

Oh, and by creative, I don't mean creative writing. I mean she decorates things and makes them beautiful. She sends people the most beautiful emails and is very particular about her fonts, changing them, making them gorgeous (we use a mac, so they really are), the colors, adding pics, etc. Her science outlines are multiple colors and all done on the computer, the only reason they're going so well. Her favorite writing projects are things where she can create and be artistic with them (burn the paper, add things, sew a journal, etc.). So the trouble for me is that this is the dc I see I have, and I need to somehow meld that with some kind of structure. I need structure, she needs structure. We've increased the amount of structure in our lives these days, and it has helped immensely.

 

BTW, if that's all clear as mud, it's because what I really keep thinking through is Omnibus. I've planned on it for years, and now that I walk up to it, I'm trying to see how it fits my dd. I know there are other options, and yet it's still what I was planning on. So what I've thought about doing is taking the books from there that we want to do and create our own structure and methodology that works for us. That's what leaves me with hives of uncertainty, wondering if I'll do a good job or regret it. I have WEM here to read, and I'm just trying to find my comfort zone. Writing is a vital aspect of Omnibus, so to me that's what the whole thing hinges on. The question is not what books, but rather what to do WITH the books. Do I seem to be going in circles yet? I do. But each time things make a little more sense to me. :)

Edited January 25, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[8filltheheart]

.

 

Oh, and by creative, I don't mean creative writing. I mean she decorates things and makes them beautiful. She sends people the most beautiful emails and is very particular about her fonts, changing them, making them gorgeous (we use a mac, so they really are), the colors, adding pics, etc. Her science outlines are multiple colors and all done on the computer, the only reason they're going so well. Her favorite writing projects are things where she can create and be artistic with them (burn the paper, add things, sew a journal, etc.). So the trouble for me is that this is the dc I see I have, and I need to somehow meld that with some kind of structure. I need structure, she needs structure. We've increased the amount of structure in our lives these days, and it has helped immensely.

 

:)

 

Have you ever seen a graphic organizer? My dd that needs to outline in order to not meander really loved using Inspiration (or kidspiration, can't remember which one) when she was your dd's age. The rest of my kids hate them. But, she loved it. http://www.inspiration.com/Kidspiration

[swimmermom3]

Elizabeth, now I get it. Where we are now is a new place. Swimmer Dude is not so literal anymore and can handle some of the analysis work. His sister is 18 and enters some of our conversations. He doesn't like it when the older kids outdo him so he tries harder. Our middle ground before this was still quantity, but without analysis. I see writing a bit like swimming in that muscle memory plays an important part. If my kids are writing something every day but not necessarily having to come up with an original thought, they are working on muscle memory and developing a habit. This is primarily what I was talking about with regards to ease. They don't have an opportunity to stare at white paper unless they want to. Dictation even with boys has colored pens, stickers, whatever, just like your dd. i found it difficult to just stick to narrations, outlines, and notebook pages. There was a brief obsession with shape poems. Good luck. I know you have put so much effort and heart into finding the right path for her.

[PeterPan]

Have you ever seen a graphic organizer? My dd that needs to outline in order to not meander really loved using Inspiration (or kidspiration, can't remember which one) when she was your dd's age. The rest of my kids hate them. But, she loved it. http://www.inspiration.com/Kidspiration

 

I looked at that a long time ago and never took the plunge. Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. I'm trying to think if she meanders or if she just has a hard time getting her thoughts out (but has them logically arranged once they get out). Thanks for the reminder!

[8filltheheart]

I looked at that a long time ago and never took the plunge. Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. I'm trying to think if she meanders or if she just has a hard time getting her thoughts out (but has them logically arranged once they get out). Thanks for the reminder!

 

Oh, I wasn't suggesting it b/c of meandering. She liked it b/c she could add pictures and be creative in the design of her outline. (shapes. word maps or colorful standard outlines with pictures, etc) She had fun outlining. :D That was a bonus b/c she really needed to outline. ;)

[Sevilla]

I believe strong writing builds on itself year by year, and a 5 paragraph essay is the very basic form of 'educated writing' that a student should be able to produce by the end of 9th grade (early Rhetoric). After that they would progress to 3-5 page papers, then 7-10 page papers by the end of high school. In the Logic stage, they should be solidifying their 3-5 paragraph essays (some students will still need to focus on the 3 paragraph, others will be ready to move on to 5 paragraph). In the Grammar stage they would be focused on writing a solid 10 sentence paragraph, and by the end moving on to 3 paragraph essays in each of these writing styles: expository, descriptive, and narrative (persuasive doesn't come into play until late Logic/early Rhetoric).

 

I am not at all impressed with the writing I see coming out of our local public schools (even the 'best' school districts), so I wouldn't use that as a measure. It seems there that as long as the student has complete sentences and capitalization, a general theme (with or without a topic sentence), and enough length, then it's considered 'good writing' when those really describe just the very BASE layer of competency. Showcasing varied sentence structure, broad vocabulary, detailed descriptions/examples, supporting each point with reasons, etc... are all other components that are essential to high quality written expression, and you build those skills layer by layer over the years - not all at once. FWIW, I would expect a Logic student to produce what I listed above b/c I would assume they have been practicing it throughout the Grammar stage and are moving from 'practice' to 'mastery' in their writing.

 

I will admit that my background and personal leanings make me more of a heavy writing-emphasis person than others, and I'm speaking generally about students who do not have other challenges that would impact their writing.

[PeterPan]

Sevilla, how does your plan for writing mesh with CW?

[Sevilla]

Sevilla, how does your plan for writing mesh with CW?

What I wrote above is how writing is done at our classical coop (though I reduced the length of essays and extended the age of expectation a bit). We don't use WTM as our only resource - that is more the general inspiration, and the nuts and bolts are Shurley English (the writing formats), IEW, and Veritas Press. Does that answer your question?

[PeterPan]

Your sig says you are a CW Instructor, so I wondered how that helped you get to these writing goals you listed. So your co-op does the Shurley writing, IEW, and VP, and you do CW on top of that home?

[Sevilla]

Your sig says you are a CW Instructor, so I wondered how that helped you get to these writing goals you listed. So your co-op does the Shurley writing, IEW, and VP, and you do CW on top of that home?

The goals I listed are our scope-and-sequence for our coop which is coordinated with what students do at home during the week. I'm a bit confused about what you mean by "CW" (classical writing). I took it to mean within the classical framework and not a specific subset of ideas, but I could totally be misunderstanding as I've only been in this writing part of coop for a year.

[Colleen in NS]

You know what's funny? As I talk with you, it seems like the constant refrain is quantity (quantity in math, quantity in writing). Right now I'm trying a bit to err toward the quantity side on writing, precisely because I think we have an issue there, just in how in language flows out. So I'm actually more concerned about quantity than I am about rhetorical devices or analysis. I can bring that in later using the resources I have, and I'm not worried about that. With the rhetoric materials I've looked at, it makes perfect sense how they apply to writing. It's just this whole in-between stage that is proving challenging, getting her proficiency to where she's READY to start applying the rhetoric stuff (someday).

 

...quantity IS what SWB was talking about at the convention, lots of short, daily assignments. That's why I didn't walk away with a whole structured paradigm or progression, even though it was there (and will be in my notes hopefully!). The big thing I took away was to keep doing lots of little assignments, constantly working on it. And that has been pretty formative in my thinking, because I DO think that is what dd needs. I don't know that every dc does, but she does. But with her it can't be ho-hum.

 

I am finding that the whole "in between stage" is a lot easier than I thought it would be. I find that it's easier for my son to practice a few skills in short-but-topics-of-his-choosing assignments, over and over again, than to try and teach him skills that may belong to an older child's learning. I tried that in his younger years, and he was not ready for it. I believe that this practice will cause him to slowly absorb the skills, making him ready to learn higher level skills in a few more years.

 

Yes, hopefully a second look at your notes will yield a bigger perspective. I remember being caught in the specifics for so long, until finally I saw the bigger picture. Now I can tweak the specifics even better. I think that's why I said to you that you also could make your own routine - even if your dd doesn't do 2-3 outlines per week for four years. If you understand the ideal-end-of-grade-4/8/12 goals (and if that's what you want to go for), then it's easier to map out a routine for four years, cuz you can monitor the progress toward the goal yourself.

 

My dd, when she was in 1st or 2nd grade, asked me why I didn't read the book myself if I so wanted to know, and that was the end of subject narrations for us.

 

:lol: I've had a child or both who said this to me a few times at those ages!

 

I mean she decorates things and makes them beautiful. She sends people the most beautiful emails and is very particular about her fonts, changing them, making them gorgeous (we use a mac, so they really are), the colors, adding pics, etc. Her science outlines are multiple colors and all done on the computer, the only reason they're going so well. Her favorite writing projects are things where she can create and be artistic with them (burn the paper, add things, sew a journal, etc.).

 

My daughter does these things, too! Today she showed me her math paper, after she'd finished writing her problems and solving them. Every single problem number had little decorations all over it!!

 

I have WEM here to read, and I'm just trying to find my comfort zone.

 

Are you reading to try to figure out if you should do some stuff in it, soon, with your dd?

[PeterPan]

The goals I listed are our scope-and-sequence for our coop which is coordinated with what students do at home during the week. I'm a bit confused about what you mean by "CW" (classical writing). I took it to mean within the classical framework and not a specific subset of ideas, but I could totally be misunderstanding as I've only been in this writing part of coop for a year.

 

Oh, no wonder you're confused! CW=Classical Writing, a curriculum http://classicalwriting.com You might want to tweak your sig. I took it to mean you were teaching CW. I've used VP stuff for years, so I'm familiar with their recs. It's very interesting to hear specifically how it works out in your group. Thanks! :)

[PeterPan]

Well Colleen, thanks to you my homeschool room got cleaner tonight, hehe... I spent the last hour and half looking high and low for those convention notes! Then I remembered I filed them at my computer, in another room. :)

 

So now I have the notes in-hand and am enjoying some yummy (if a little old) chocolate covered rice krispie treats. If the notes don't sort me out, the chocolate should, right? :)

[PeterPan]

Well I've just looked over my notes, and I figured out why all this didn't stick in my brain solidly! Ds was crawling around on the floor, and I was just trying to keep up! It was nurse, crawl, floor, oops he's making noise, etc. What an adventure! I don't even have notes from the 8th gr level of the middle school lecture, even though I'm sure I was there. In any event, after looking over my notes from the 3 lectures, I feel a lot more chilled! Frankly, her recommendations aren't anywhere NEAR the things being tossed around as essential (do this or your child will suffer). I mean truly, they aren't anywhere close. And actually, the stuff we're doing now is a meld of her 6th and 7th gr recommendations. So we're right on track, whew! I actually feel much better about it now, because my dd *can* comfortably keep on track with the quantities SWB is suggesting. What she can't do is what some of the people around here are saying or what in my mind I thought I needed to make her do.

 

I need to back up here though. We're outlining the BJU Life Science. It's a fabulous experience and going well. The material is actually MEANT to be outlined, so it has lots of structure. But really we don't have the time or interest to rewrite that, bleh. Double bleh. So what are some other options for things out outline and rewrite? Duh, the CW stuff sort of is that, but it's still narrative. What I'm thinking is if I had the right thing, something incredibly interesting and WORTH rewriting, we could do the outlining together, with me writing (whiteboard), and then she could write from the outline. I'm thinking biographies or something. SWB mentioned doing that with one of her ds's.

 

Why are we rewriting from an outline anyway??? That just isn't on my top list of things to do, yuck. I mean what in the WORLD would be so fascinating as to be worth doing that???

 

And do you have the 8th gr section of the notes? I found the pdf's online, but my notes had specific grade recs. For 7th I have ditch the narrative essays, 3 level outline 2X, rewrite from outline 1X. More of the same for 8th?

 

I think I just figured out what I can use to have her write from an outline. I'll have to look at what I'm thinking and see. It just might work.

 

Ok, I'm thinking about this a bit more. Where do multi-source writings come in if you're outlining and rewriting still in 7th and 8th???

[Capt_Uhura]

OHElizabeth - Did you mention in another thread that you were a beta tester for WWS but laid it aside? Seems unlikely given the age of your DD but I thought I remembered that.

[PeterPan]

Yes, I have the files somewhere. Around the time they sent the 2nd one out I switched computers, so I don't even know which one they're on at the moment. It was one of those things where I looked, decided it wasn't a good fit (at the time) and gave up. So are you saying I ought to go back and look at them? I could. Pretty much the entirety of the past calendar year was a mess for us because of the vision stuff. We're back on track now, so I've been getting things in order. We're doing roughly enough right now, so it's mainly for next year that I'm thinking.

 

I'm having little lightbulbs about how this can work.

 

I did save the files, so maybe sometime soon I can look at them again and see if they might be useful.

[Sevilla]

Oh, no wonder you're confused! CW=Classical Writing, a curriculum http://classicalwriting.com You might want to tweak your sig. I took it to mean you were teaching CW. I've used VP stuff for years, so I'm familiar with their recs. It's very interesting to hear specifically how it works out in your group. Thanks! :)

Doh! Thank you so much for explaining that to me - explains why I was lost. I fixed my sig.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Sevilla

[PenKase]

 

You would love Elizabeth Gilbert's TED talk on nurturing creativity.

 

 

 

 

 

This TED talk is brilliant!!! Thank you very much for posting.

 

 

I've not yet read through all the responses, but I am often in awe of the stellar information found on these boards such as included in this thread. Thanks to you all for allowing newbies like me into such interesting, thought provoking minds. Believe me, we all stand to benefit.

[Colleen in NS]

Well Colleen, thanks to you my homeschool room got cleaner tonight, hehe...

 

 

Always happy to help a fellow mother out! :lol:

 

In any event, after looking over my notes from the 3 lectures, I feel a lot more chilled! Frankly, her recommendations aren't anywhere NEAR the things being tossed around as essential (do this or your child will suffer).

 

I know, that's why it was such a relief to me to attend those lectures. It helped me to see the big picture, the end goals at each stage, and that the steps to achieve those goals were slowed down and rearranged somewhat from what I sometimes see written here. It helped me not to panic. AND, I have something to follow, cuz I need it!!!!

 

So what are some other options for things out outline and rewrite?

 

Anything! Anything non-fiction. Anything interesting. Anything that has well-written paragraphs, where you can see the organization of the paragraph (and, the 2009 WTM outlining instructions immensely helped me with teaching ds how to see the organization, which results in being able to outline easily). Anything that you are reading in supplement to history and science. Break up any boredom that might come from just outlining/rewriting from outline from one book all year. I'm so glad I learned a couple of years ago why people didn't like outlining the red KF book, because it caused me to branch out and be able to let my son outline related things he was interested in, but not get bogged down in one book. Boring, IMO. (But cheers to you, if you and your dd love outlining the science book, that interest is all that matters when learning this skill, IMO.)

 

I have ds (and will start teaching dd next year) outline from library books and World Book encyclopedia articles. So for example, if, a couple of weeks ago, he read about the Industrial Revolution from his red KF history book, I might have him go through the library books he checked out about the Industrial Revolution. He will pick a section of interest, and I will say, "OK, go outline x amount of paragraphs." Or, if today is an outline day (I schedule writing skills like this, for this year: M-outline, T-rewrite from that, W-outline, Th-lit. narration - but you don't have to do it this way, just giving you a peek at our week), and he wants to read about a certain element (we're doing chemistry for science this year), he can look it up in World Book or a library book, and voila, I tell him the same thing, "Find an interesting spot in the article/book, and I'll give you x amount to outline."

 

But, I must say, after having a peek at my friend's beta test of WWS, I sure wish I had signed up for that....the week is laid out a little differently, and there is different instruction in there about the rewriting, that made much more sense to me....

 

Why are we rewriting from an outline anyway??? That just isn't on my top list of things to do, yuck. I mean what in the WORLD would be so fascinating as to be worth doing that???

 

Go look at your WWS beta test again!!!!!! :D Esp. the part on day 4, I think, where it say something like "analyzing the model." If that doesn't make your rewriting instruction more fascinating, I don't know what will. :D (I'm kidding around with you on that last sentence - of course you will have to decide for yourself. :D)

 

And do you have the 8th gr section of the notes? I found the pdf's online, but my notes had specific grade recs. For 7th I have ditch the narrative essays, 3 level outline 2X, rewrite from outline 1X. More of the same for 8th?

 

Yes, according to what I had written down. And did you catch the ideal goal for the end of grade 8? Go find it, cuz it might help you figure out how you want to space things out.

 

Where do multi-source writings come in if you're outlining and rewriting still in 7th and 8th???

 

What do you mean here? If you mean other methods of creative writing (stories, poetry, etc.), I say, lay it all out in a weekly or bi-weekly plan, a sample of which I mentioned before. I've got a feeling I'll be doing that with my dd somewhat. Or what about just giving her something to guide her in creative writing, and letting her play around with it on her "free" time? Mine loves to do that. Of course, I say all this assuming your meaning from above - if I'm wrong, sorry! :D Please let me know what you meant.

 

So are you saying I ought to go back and look at them?

 

I am!!! :D And of course, I yak about all this, because it seems to maybe fit into what you are looking for, but if it is not, then disregard all this.

[Capt_Uhura]

Yes, I have the files somewhere. Around the time they sent the 2nd one out I switched computers, so I don't even know which one they're on at the moment. It was one of those things where I looked, decided it wasn't a good fit (at the time) and gave up. So are you saying I ought to go back and look at them? I could. Pretty much the entirety of the past calendar year was a mess for us because of the vision stuff. We're back on track now, so I've been getting things in order. We're doing roughly enough right now, so it's mainly for next year that I'm thinking.

 

I'm having little lightbulbs about how this can work.

 

I did save the files, so maybe sometime soon I can look at them again and see if they might be useful.

 

Yep, that's what I'm saying and I just read that Colleen said the same thing....I would say great minds think alike but I don't put my brain in the great mind category just yet. :lol:

[Colleen in NS]

Yep, that's what I'm saying and I just read that Colleen said the same thing....I would say great minds think alike but I don't put my brain in the great mind category just yet. :lol:

 

lol, we are following each other around - I just typed a chat with you elsewhere.

[Capt_Uhura]

:lol::001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Ok folks, I found the files! So make sure I'm seeing this correctly. I have three files that appear to start at week one and go through week 4. So the tm has 53 pages and the student workbook file has 47. Is this what y'all have? So does that INCLUDE the information that was sent in the first mailing? So they added on new and remailed the whole? I'd have to fiddle with my old computer to see.

[justamouse]

This TED talk is brilliant!!! Thank you very much for posting.

 

 

I've not yet read through all the responses, but I am often in awe of the stellar information found on these boards such as included in this thread. Thanks to you all for allowing newbies like me into such interesting, thought provoking minds. Believe me, we all stand to benefit.

 

 

I'm thrilled you liked it!

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok folks, I found the files! So make sure I'm seeing this correctly. I have three files that appear to start at week one and go through week 4. So the tm has 53 pages and the student workbook file has 47. Is this what y'all have? So does that INCLUDE the information that was sent in the first mailing? So they added on new and remailed the whole? I'd have to fiddle with my old computer to see.

 

NO, this 2nd version replaces the 1st. Later in the 2nd version an earlier part of the 1st shows up. The parts I found confusing and didn't understand she totally reworked. Just go by the 2nd version and forget the 1st.

[PeterPan]

Uhura, thanks for clarifying that!

[gevs4him]

Awesome - Thank you

[Haiku]

I don't think there is any reason that a 7th grader couldn't be writing 5-paragraph essays. Indeed, I would consider a 7th grader who couldn't do this behind. I know that TWTM emphasizes paragraphs for a long time, but imo, if a student can write a good paragraph, he can write three good paragraphs for the body and be taught how to write an introductory and concluding paragraph.

 

I think that the more practice the student has, the better. My kids will be writing weekly 5-paragraph essays by 7th grade. My 4th grader already writes them (for fun, not assigned by me). My ds is not a strong writer, which is why I intend to have him doing weekly essays by 7th grade. He needs to work on those skills that don't come naturally. In 3rd grade we are still working on good sentences. We probably will in 4th, too. In 5th and 6th we will work on paragraphs. By 7th, we will be working on 5-paragraph essays.

 

I think 5-paragraph essays mesh very nicely with logic-stage ideas about how students need to be evaluating, and not just memorizing, information.

 

Tara

[Nicholas_mom]

This is an old thread BUt a Very good one!  This is great thread to go along with the other threads on writing.

 

Thank you 8Filheart for typing that all out -- the progression in writing.  I finally figured out the missing piece for teaching grammer in MCT.  I need to use DS writing samples to transfer his grammer knowledge into HIS own writing.  This will be piece of cake.

 

Thank you everyone --  I pieced all the good info and great encouraging advice from this thread into a Word Doc and I will be able to create my OWN curricula that will fit ds's natural writing style instead of derailing it :D

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yes, this one is a classic!   :001_wub:   Thanks for reviving it, very timely!  

[cjbeach]

(OMG I thought I was losing my mind. I have this "revived" post saved, without looking at the dates I started reading it today and was utterly confused. )

This is one of the KEEPER posts for certain. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Speaking of the 5-paragraph Essay - SWB posted this piece from slate on PHP's FB site:

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/10/sat_essay_section_problems_with_grading_instruction_and_prompts.single.html

[butterfly113]

Speaking of the 5-paragraph Essay - SWB posted this piece from slate on PHP's FB site:

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/10/sat_essay_section_problems_with_grading_instruction_and_prompts.single.html

 

Hmmm... I'm not quite sure what to make of that article... Not what I expected to read really.

 

Thoughts Rose?

[Heathermomster]

Wowsers people!!  I just read 8's postings about writing and had an "I'm not worthy moment."

 

Thank-you so much 8Filltheheart and everyone really.  This is a great thread.