Aubrey Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) I'm not sure what I'm asking, but I've got a kid who learns differently. If we can have a "conversation" about it, she does great. I know how to do that with history. I know how to do that with science. Thanks to MCT, we do this with grammar, but I'm at a loss as to how to do this with math. Ds is doing LoF, which I think will be great for dd when she gets to that point, but she's not there yet. And...something even more story-based than that would really be great, I think. I've requested things like The Grapes of Math from the library, but there are only a few titles covering a limited number of topics (few of which deal w/ things she needs to focus on). Iow, it might be a good start, but...I guess more than a particular math-story, I'm looking for...a teaching skill/style I can learn/adapt. I found some books on this subject (teaching math through literature) on Amazon, but they're kind-of expensive w/ no preview & not avail in my library. :glare: Ideas? I'm interested in reviews of the teaching books as well as ideas for how to do this. TIA! :001_smile: ETA: One more thing. The other "conversation-based" subjects we do aren't skill-based, so we can do them together. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this kind of approach to a subject with only one kid at a time. Edited January 20, 2011 by Aubrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
my2boysteacher Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Here is an interesting article someone else posted in another thread. You may find this interesting. http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/benezet/1.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapbabe Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Livingmath.net is great for this! I have been using her ideas for years. I also recently bought Math On The Level, so we can approach math the way my kids need it, and not the way the curriculum dictates. I was unhappy with the different math programs we had tried for my 10 year old. This one is pricey, but has been worth it for me. If you aren't looking to buy though, check out livingmath.net and join the yahoo group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Have you checked out the Living Math website? There might be some good information there for you. Mathy books that my kids have enjoyed include: Penrose the Mathematical Cat Sir Cumference series by Cindy Neuschwander Family Math Math for Smarty Pants I Hate Mathematics Anything by Gregory Tang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 My dd4 loves stories of all sorts and loves numbers, but I've had a hard time getting any of my many early math stuff to work. At the moment I'm torn about just shelving math for a while - as she's just 4.5yo - just working on language and doing just real life number stuff as it comes up, like the method in the above link (I love Benezet's ideas). But she loves numbers so much, I feel like I'm doing her a disservice by just waiting. So I'm toying with writing my own math stories around the lessons in MEP and Miquon and CSMP (plus finally getting the CSMP stories printed). Waldorf has a lot of story math ideas, and their focus on oral storytelling would help with make things a bit easier than having to make a little book for each story. Anyway, MEP reception has several lessons that involve telling a story with a related poster that allows for asking mathish questions that relate to the story, so I plan to use that and the CSMP stories as models. Really, if I get the math that I want to teach down, I don't think it will be hard for me to make up a story presenting it - especially as I just want to use the stories as a way to get her interested in all those nice hands on activities I want to do ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi mum Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 What about a discovery based math program like Miquon. You can play with the rods and talk about possibilities. Have you looked at the Living Math website? http://www.livingmath.net/ They have book recommendations, lesson plans and a Yahoo group for discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I used the Living Math website to find lots of different books at our library. I'm combining living math with Singapore and it has been a good fit. I'm also showing an enjoyable DVD series called Math for Children and Math for Students that I found at the library too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Y'all are funny. Ok! Living Math. Going there now. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Have you seen Marilyn Burns's series of books on exactly that, Math Through Literature? The books have a series of lesson plans using picture books -- both inherently "mathy" ones and regular books -- as jumping off points. Dd, my non-fiction hater, even got drawn into some of the non-fiction ones. I remember one about a giraffe being walked across Europe to the court of France, where it was a present for a king; this got used as a series of activities on distance, and in particular on the concept of a mile. A lot of the books are out of print, but I was able to find them all through libraries. http://www.mathsolutions.com Added: Marilyn Burns is also wonderful for specifics about how to talk about math. I think there's even one book on the website specifically devoted to that. But all the lesson plans in her Math Replacement Units and the Math Through Literature books give extended transcriptions of classroom conversations, questions to ask, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Have you seen Marilyn Burns's series of books on exactly that, Math Through Literature? The books have a series of lesson plans using picture books -- both inherently "mathy" ones and regular books -- as jumping off points. Dd, my non-fiction hater, even got drawn into some of the non-fiction ones. I remember one about a giraffe being walked across Europe to the court of France, where it was a present for a king; this got used as a series of activities on distance, and in particular on the concept of a mile. A lot of the books are out of print, but I was able to find them all through libraries. http://www.mathsolutions.com Added: Marilyn Burns is also wonderful for specifics about how to talk about math. I think there's even one book on the website specifically devoted to that. But all the lesson plans in her Math Replacement Units and the Math Through Literature books give extended transcriptions of classroom conversations, questions to ask, etc. Oh, I'm really looking forward to looking at this. I was supposed to lay my littles down about 2hrs ago, & I keep thinking, "Just one more minute" to read these math threads. :lol: ETA: Not that I've been here for 2 hrs. :leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Have you seen Marilyn Burns's series of books on exactly that, Math Through Literature? The books have a series of lesson plans using picture books -- both inherently "mathy" ones and regular books -- as jumping off points. Dd, my non-fiction hater, even got drawn into some of the non-fiction ones. I remember one about a giraffe being walked across Europe to the court of France, where it was a present for a king; this got used as a series of activities on distance, and in particular on the concept of a mile. A lot of the books are out of print, but I was able to find them all through libraries. http://www.mathsolutions.com Added: Marilyn Burns is also wonderful for specifics about how to talk about math. I think there's even one book on the website specifically devoted to that. But all the lesson plans in her Math Replacement Units and the Math Through Literature books give extended transcriptions of classroom conversations, questions to ask, etc. Whoa. She's got a lot of books. Are there any that you particularly recommend? It looks like the Math & Literature series is closest to the context of this thread...of course, my library has only one of those, & it's marked "non-circulating." :glare: They seem to have a lot of her other mathy picture books, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Have you checked out Teacher Ideas Press? I see they have a book entitle Math through Children's Literature. They also have some other math books that look similar. But you might want to compare prices, as I can usually find their books elsewhere for cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybear Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 There is also a living math yahoo group, which has a lot of good ideas. Have you looked at http://www.arithmeticvillage.com ? Also check out http://ebeth.typepad.com/serendipity/gnomes-and-gnumbers-a-mat.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Whoa. She's got a lot of books. Are there any that you particularly recommend? It looks like the Math & Literature series is closest to the context of this thread...of course, my library has only one of those, & it's marked "non-circulating." :glare: They seem to have a lot of her other mathy picture books, though. We went through a lot of the books over the years thanks to a nearby teacher store that carried them ALL, plus paperbacks of many of the picture books used in Math and Literature. We did the Math and Literature series through the middle elementary grades, I think. I used nearly all of the Math Replacement units on things like multiplication and division, fractions, percents and decimals (I would have used the other books in earlier years had I known they existed, but I stumbled on them when dd was about 8). All had some wonderful activities and spurred lots of discussion about various ways to work through a problem. But my favorites, and dd's, were the Algebraic Thinking books. These came out later than the others, I think, so we only got the grade 6-8 book, but it was fantastic. Some of the activities even became dd's favorite games. I credit these, and Hands-On Equations, to her seamless transition into regular textbook algebra in 8th grade. The books about math talk, whatever their titles are, also were published too late for me to really make a lot of use of them. But I would bet my money they are really good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Here is an interesting article someone else posted in another thread. You may find this interesting.http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/benezet/1.html This article was posted here about a year or so ago. I opened it, remembered it, kept reading through the 1st p, & closed it. It's been on my mind ever since, though. I'm as far opposite of a better-late-than-early gal as you're going to get, so part of this really makes my hair stand on end. Another part of it, though...makes sense, to a point. I wonder if it depends on the student? I remember as a kid being completely unable to work out horizontal math problems. I'd rewrite them & then erase the evidence. I'd tilt my head to the side to try to "see" it the "right" way. I figured out some mental math on my own, but I don't remember it being taught much, if at all. Now ds, taught almost exclusively w/ Singapore, is different. I've never seen him rewrite a problem so he could "see" it better, & his tendency is to try to do too much in his head. When he needs help or has something wrong, & I check his process, I always, always, expect the mistake to be with the math he hasn't written out. I'm usually wrong. Dd, taught exclusively w/ Singapore, uses mental math as if it's a foreign language. She *tries* but doesn't seem to understand what she's doing. She writes stuff out a lot, but then doesn't bother to look at what she's written, lol. My point is, I think *some* math is actually good for ds. I could see how holding off might be good for dd. I've spent the evening looking at the TM & textbook we're going to start on Monday. At first, I saw what I always see: pages & pages of stuff I know she knows. Echoes of her complaints, "This is too easy." But I forced myself to look at the concepts, the ways they were being taught, etc & try to find HER in those pp. Not me, not ds, but dd. It was as if, after looking long enough, the letters & numbers & pp began to rearrange themselves & I could see what she needed...at least, the verge of it? These math conversations today have been so helpful. This article you linked was a much-needed reminder of another approach. I've been practically comatose today I've had so many tabs open on my computer, reading reviews on Amazon, checking my library, placing holds, etc. And griping at dd in between for not "getting it." :confused: I'm glad I've had some quiet time tonight (despite the moles that keep creeping out of bed, lol). It's not a concrete idea yet, but it's there & it's forming, & math is going to be better for dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom31257 Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 You could see if your library has the Stuart Murphy books. These are story picture books to teach math concepts. I love them, and I am a math person with a degree in it. I read these quite a bit with my dd when she was young. She is language oriented, not a mathy kid. I remember I particulary like the odd/even story. She understood the concept immediately. She is using LoF, also. There are 3 different levels, so you probably won't need any from level 1, but level 2 and 3 are more lower elementary concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I had one more thought for you, Aubrey, which is Kitchen Table Math by Andrew Wright. It is fairly informal, low-key, but good -- I met Dr. Wright when dd briefly attended a fancy private school in 8th grade. He's a professional mathematician, runs a Math Olympiad Circle, and the Kitchen Table books are based on how he approached math with his young kids. They were published just slightly behind dd's age and abilities so I didn't use them, but I've had a look and think it might be something useful for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Taking notes. My main concern has been cost caused by having to purchase the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Taking notes. My main concern has been cost caused by having to purchase the books. Check your library. Mine probably doesn't have half the titles listed here, but more than we could really get to, if that makes sense. And I know me--if I order one, I'm *much* less likely to use it, since there's no impending due date. :glare: After this whole thread, I've ordered less than $10 worth of books that the library doesn't carry. I think I'm ok w/ that, lol.:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Check your library. Mine probably doesn't have half the titles listed here, but more than we could really get to, if that makes sense. And I know me--if I order one, I'm *much* less likely to use it, since there's no impending due date. :glare: After this whole thread, I've ordered less than $10 worth of books that the library doesn't carry. I think I'm ok w/ that, lol.:D Yeah, I can handle 10.00 :) I will check. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapbabe Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 You gotta check out these blogs for some fun math/literature related activities. Check out the penguin theme! Oh my gosh!! Too cute! http://www.mathwire.com/themes/themepen.html#math http://love2learn2day.blogspot.com/2011/01/penguin-math-game-pieces.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+love2learn2day+(love2learn2day) I could just spend all day browsing these blogs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daughterofsarah77 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Another fan of LivingMath.net here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anabelneri Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I have the same sort of daughter as the OP. I've definitely used Waldorf ideas to help get across some of the concepts, especially if she's struggling. Here's another site that has a Waldorf flavor, even though it's Orthodox Christian: http://www.stmichaelschool.us/teachingmath.html They sell wooden math manipulatives too. We use MEP as our primary math program, but we also pull in the Challenging Word Problems from Singapore... for some reason Sweetie finds them to be less challenging than the straightforward problems. My theory is that they're already in a story-format, so she spends her mental energy solving the problems rather than creating a story around the numbers. Overall MEP has been great for her, though. Oh, and we also will bring her math lessons into whatever she's pretending to be at the time. Her MEP worksheets are actually in a notebook with an "Arithmancy" cover and a Hogwarts crest in the corner... It's much easier to get her to sit down and focus if she's pretending to be a Hogwarts student than if she's herself. Last year it was "Fairy Math". :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anabelneri Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I forgot to mention... I asked a questions similar to yours a while back, and some folks mentioned Professor B math. Apparently the online version has some stories mixed right in, and some people find it to be excellent. I got the book version; I have to make up the stories myself, so it's not as good. But the online version might be worth looking at. And Professor Pig goes a certain ways into beginning math... http://www.ellenjmchenry.com/id74.html :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinM Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 There is a series of books by TimeLife Books called I Love Math. I ordered a couple of them used from Amazon and after seeing how much my DS5 loved them I actually hunted down the entire set. (There are 12 total.) I have these books in a basket in our living room and my kids get them out and look at them daily...even my 3 year old loves to look at them. The books have games and stories that engage my kids... we love them. There's also another series that I love called "Family Math". You can find them on Amazon as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MangoMama Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Livingmath.net is great for this! I have been using her ideas for years. I also recently bought Math On The Level, so we can approach math the way my kids need it, and not the way the curriculum dictates. I was unhappy with the different math programs we had tried for my 10 year old. This one is pricey, but has been worth it for me. If you aren't looking to buy though, check out livingmath.net and join the yahoo group. This. :) There is a HUGE booklist that took me days to go through. Another vote for Family Math, too! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I so want to teach math this way, but our horrible library has none of the titles, so I'm stuck waiting until I can afford them. So, for those who have used them, are the Kitchen Table Math and Marilyn Burns books really worth the $25-30 apiece they are going for? There seems to be no used market at all for these books, so I would have to buy them new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakereese Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 There is a series of books by TimeLife Books called I Love Math. I ordered a couple of them used from Amazon and after seeing how much my DS5 loved them I actually hunted down the entire set. (There are 12 total.) Thanks for mentioning these. I've been looking at these online today, and they look like something my DD would just love. I got lucky and found a great set on ebay, so I am looking forward to receiving them. I think even my DS will enjoy them. We can never have too many books, right?! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 There is a series of books by TimeLife Books called I Love Math. I ordered a couple of them used from Amazon and after seeing how much my DS5 loved them I actually hunted down the entire set. (There are 12 total.) These are great, my son loves them too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JennyD Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I've been using the Marilyn Burns Math and Literature (Grades 2-3) from the set KarenAnne mentioned upthread, and it is fantastic. I initially got it through the library but then purchased it because it was so useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaffodilDreams Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Great thread. I use livingmath, but most of these other suggestions are new to me. I'm looking forward to checking them out. Thanks for starting this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I so want to teach math this way, but our horrible library has none of the titles, so I'm stuck waiting until I can afford them. So, for those who have used them, are the Kitchen Table Math and Marilyn Burns books really worth the $25-30 apiece they are going for? There seems to be no used market at all for these books, so I would have to buy them new. Usually no one I know uses the things I love, so I've given away all my Burns books to the library here, or I would have been happy to send them to you. For us the Burns books were definitely worth the money. I used them as our basic math resource -- we didn't use a textbook program at all in early elementary school. But since they are so expensive, I'd suggest you order just one and try some of the lessons to see whether they're a good fit for your child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundersweet Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 What about this..http://www.queenhomeschool.com/productpages/mathlessons/mathlessons.html I was thinking of getting it myself. I don't know if that link will work but if not, it's Queen Homeschool Math Lessons for A Living Education. Sandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindyz Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 nt sorry, mispost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I had one more thought for you, Aubrey, which is Kitchen Table Math by Andrew Wright. It is fairly informal, low-key, but good -- I met Dr. Wright when dd briefly attended a fancy private school in 8th grade. He's a professional mathematician, runs a Math Olympiad Circle, and the Kitchen Table books are based on how he approached math with his young kids. They were published just slightly behind dd's age and abilities so I didn't use them, but I've had a look and think it might be something useful for you. This is what I was going to recommend. It gives a good ordered presentation of the concepts you need to teach, examples of how, and which topics require what prior understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapbabe Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Oh, I just found these at AIMS. http://store.aimsedu.org/aims_store/literature-links/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Aubrey, Thank you for starting this thread. We need it around here for 2 of my Little Leaguers. At the risk of bragging, my library has the whole series of Stuart J. Murphy books! Guess what will be waiting for me in the drive thru today! I feel like dancing a tango in celebration!:party: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 So, for those who have used them, are the Kitchen Table Math and Marilyn Burns books really worth the $25-30 apiece they are going for? Which Marilyn Burns book is being discussed? I got a bit confused by all the threads. I have her About Teaching Mathematics book -- I should take another look at it. I also love Anno's math books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Here are some we have used: One Guinea Pig is Not Enough, Kate Duke. (counting from one to ten and ten plus ten makes twenty, to introduce counting by tens). Just Add Fun! Includes skip counting and making change. Pigs go to Market, Halloween Fun with Math and Shopping, Amy Axelrod. Introduces multiplication and a little measurement. The 100th Day of School! Introduces activities to encourage counting to 100. (free mini-book for 100th day activities: http://minibooks.scholastic.com/minibooks/detail/?id=36334 ) Midnight Math, Twelve Terrific Math Games, Peter Ledwon and Marilyn Mets. (Uses a deck of cards, dice, and other household items to help you brush up on basic math skills.) Amanda Bean's Amazing Dream, a Mathematical Story, Cindy Neuschwander (a story about multiplying; math activities included at the end of the book). (Lesson plan: http://teacher.scholastic.com/products/classroombooks/popups/product/marilynburns-AmandaBean.htm ) Pigs in the Pantry, Fun with Math and Cooking, Amy Axelrod (covers capacity measurement facts). Pigs will be Pigs, Amy Axelrod (book about adding up money amounts). Alexander, Who Used to be Rich Last Sunday, Judith Viorst (book about subtracting money amounts from $1). (Lit guide: http://www.learningtogive.org/teachers/literature_guides/Alexander.asp ) Jelly Beans for Sale, Bruce McMillan (book about adding small amounts of money, pennies and dimes). Pigs on a Blanket, Fun with Math and Time, Amy Axelrod (book about time measurement). I have pictures of the books and links on the page where I list these on my blog, too.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapbabe Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I think we're talking about these Marilyn Burns books. http://www.amazon.com/Math-Literature-Grades-Marilyn-Burns/dp/0941355667/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295972252&sr=8-1-spell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Aubrey,Thank you for starting this thread. We need it around here for 2 of my Little Leaguers. At the risk of bragging, my library has the whole series of Stuart J. Murphy books! Guess what will be waiting for me in the drive thru today! I feel like dancing a tango in celebration!:party: Forget the books--your library has a drive-through? :svengo: Of *that* I am jealous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Forget the books--your library has a drive-through? :svengo: Of *that* I am jealous! Yes, it does! I am SO.Very.Spoiled. I know! We have a county wide co-op, free InterLibraryLoan and all goes on hold for me in the drive through. After they rearranged the kids dept. into these ridiculous shelves (no order, just in "slots" alphabetically, which are never in abc order), we only actually go in a couple times a year. We search online and pick up. It is wonderful! No more dragging kiddos in strollers for me! Okay, I'll stop bragging now. :D Now you all know why I can do TOG and use the library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakereese Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Forget the books--your library has a drive-through? :svengo: Of *that* I am jealous! :iagree: Sooo jealous here. Especially today. We are getting a snow storm and I had a ton of books that HAD to go back today, no more renewals. And I have to get us all out of the car. :glare: I think I'll be adding a comment to the suggestion box this week. :lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I was responding to the OP: "Ideas? I'm interested in reviews of the teaching books as well as ideas for how to do this. TIA!" The book she references is a teaching guide that suggests uses for books such as those I mention.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.