More ps woes. I could cry.

[creekland]

So, our new semester, and therefore new classes, have just begun. And I just graded an Alg review quiz containing 9 questions for a Pre-Calc class. The Alg review just has basic questions of writing lines from points, writing lines from a slope and point, solving a quadratic equation, finding the product of (4x-1)^2, and simplifying exponents - all supposed to be review for Pre-Calc.

 

Out of 19 students, the highest grade was 5.5/9 and there was one of those. One also got 4.5/9. Five got 3/9. One 2/9. One 1.5/9. Three 1/9. Seven 0/9.

 

Do NOT use CPM Math. That's the curriculum our school uses and somehow they think it's working.

 

The poor soul I'm subbing for is now responsible for teaching these students Pre-Calc, yet they can't even do basic Alg. I spent a good part of my day reviewing for her to try to help, but I can't do wonders in one day. Plus, we had to start the Pre-Calc lesson. We're on Block scheduling (whole class has to be done in one semester). We can't just skip days.

 

I'm so ready to pull my 9th grader back out of ps. I would if it wouldn't "kill" him. (It might. Literally. So I can't. We are going to be doing Geometry EVERY SINGLE NIGHT so the same S___ doesn't happen to him.)

 

The kids in my class were NOT dumb. Yes, they might be a bit unmotivated, but the aptitude is there. (sigh)

 

Sometimes I just want to quit and pretend this all isn't happening. Or that our school isn't "normal."

[Julie in MN]

I am so there with you in my experience with ps.

 

The only consolation I can offer is that my oldest graduated from a poor quality high school and he's a working engineer now. I could tell you stories like how he never took geometry. But I think the best thing you can offer is the skill of tackling something you have never seen before. If you can model that successfully, it can take them a long way.

 

Julie

[Jann in TX]

Algebra 1 is a pre-requisite for Geometry-- and I have several Geometry students this year who cannot solve SIMPLE one-variable equations!

 

I also have Algebra 2 students who know nothing about basic factoring...

 

Unfortunately in PS and in many homeschools the students today are 'spoon fed' or use 'easy' curriculums so they do not LEARN TO THINK...

 

I feel your frustration.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

I see the stuff that passes for Algebra here and I just cringe.

 

Single-Semester Block scheduling of mathematics will quicken the brain-drain of US-educated students faster than anything else.

 

:grouphug: Be glad that you recognize it before it's too late. Many parents just see the report cards and assume that "the kids are okay."

[CoastalGal]

:iagree: with all of the previous posts...it's very sad that this is the state of our public schools.

 

My oldest is seeing this "attitude" played out in her community college classes. (She is the youngest student in both classes...and so far has the highest GPA.)

 

They just don't have the skills to succeed...and many do not care. :001_huh:

[Tullia]

:grouphug:

One of the reasons we first considered homeschooling was seeing the number of children in our district who graduated with stellar grades and accomplishments, but couldn't make it in college. It happened so many times to people we know that I finally stopped believing it was isolated cases of loafing. It's still happening. I can't help contrasting that with expectations for coaches. If the team loses the coaches are not given much time to turn things around.

[creekland]

I am so there with you in my experience with ps.

 

The only consolation I can offer is that my oldest graduated from a poor quality high school and he's a working engineer now. I could tell you stories like how he never took geometry. But I think the best thing you can offer is the skill of tackling something you have never seen before. If you can model that successfully, it can take them a long way.

 

Julie

 

I'm really glad there are success stories. Quite honestly, from our high school, there are few that go on to do well in college. Most of those few often need to start with remedial classes to catch up, but they learn (quickly) how to work. Most don't though. They come home.

 

And they [usually] have the aptitude for it. I know many of these kids. They could handle the academics.

[creekland]

Algebra 1 is a pre-requisite for Geometry-- and I have several Geometry students this year who cannot solve SIMPLE one-variable equations!

 

I also have Algebra 2 students who know nothing about basic factoring...

 

Unfortunately in PS and in many homeschools the students today are 'spoon fed' or use 'easy' curriculums so they do not LEARN TO THINK...

 

I feel your frustration.

 

The kids in this pre-calc class have had Alg 1, Geo, Alg 2, and at least one had Pre-Calc before but failed it (she told me).

 

And they still don't know how to create a line from a point and a slope, much less two points.

 

I'm sure there are homeschooling kids in a similar boat, but fortunately (I guess), I don't see them.

 

Some of these kids couldn't pass a placement test into Alg 2 in my mind, yet they have credit for the course and are tackling Pre-Calc. Soon they will move on to Calc.

 

I've had multiple kids in Alg 2 who needed a calculator to do 2x4.

[creekland]

I see the stuff that passes for Algebra here and I just cringe.

 

Single-Semester Block scheduling of mathematics will quicken the brain-drain of US-educated students faster than anything else.

 

:grouphug: Be glad that you recognize it before it's too late. Many parents just see the report cards and assume that "the kids are okay."

 

:iagree:

 

And yes' date=' the parents are happy as the kids are passing. Most make the honor roll. It sure helps that they get credit for ungraded [complete'] homework and extra credit points for things like bringing in cans for a food drive.

[creekland]

:iagree: with all of the previous posts...it's very sad that this is the state of our public schools.

 

My oldest is seeing this "attitude" played out in her community college classes. (She is the youngest student in both classes...and so far has the highest GPA.)

 

They just don't have the skills to succeed...and many do not care. :001_huh:

 

:iagree: Same here.

[creekland]

:grouphug:

One of the reasons we first considered homeschooling was seeing the number of children in our district who graduated with stellar grades and accomplishments, but couldn't make it in college. It happened so many times to people we know that I finally stopped believing it was isolated cases of loafing. It's still happening. I can't help contrasting that with expectations for coaches. If the team loses the coaches are not given much time to turn things around.

 

I could have written this for our school too. It's a good part of the reason I pulled mine out to homeschool. My older two are doing and have done well. My youngest is my rebel. He's smart, but insisted to the point of suicide that we were ruining his life by homeschooling. He has done well in ps, but when I see the standard for "well" I cringe. I wish we could get him to see the future. I'm hoping he doen't rebel against afterschooling for science and math (plus I'm making him read an English book that was on their syllabus, but they didn't have time to get to since they were so busy reading in class instead of for homework).

 

I seriously want to pull him out again - like NOW - but the call I got when we were afraid he had killed himself is not worth the risk. I have to settle for second best educationally. Having my son alive is more important.

[Brilliant]

I feel your pain. We are using a public charter to school at home. I just got a "sample" copy of the geometry mid-term exam. It's the same format as the "real" mid-term, and it's 20 multiple choice problems. And this course qualifies as a UC-approved college prep class. Really? 20 multiple-choice questions is the best they could come up with for testing a semester's knowledge of geometry? I know it's hard to grade proofs; the teacher has to really read it since steps might be in a different order, or the student might even have a different way of proving it. Just today ds and I had to go through a proof together step-by-step to see why his answer didn't match the key. We proved that his proof worked, and was a step shorter than the key! But just to make myself feel better, I am going to add a proof or two to my ds' multiple-choice mid-term next week.

 

Anyway...all that to say, I am as baffled & disappointed as you are. My high school classes were HARD, back in the day!

[Susan C.]

Some good students (I was one of them) muddle through good enough to get an A in the higher maths. But it takes a pass or two more to really get it (and a more mature brain). I get my kids math now way better than I did as a teenager. I really wish the high schools added another year of algebra as an option. I think there would be more kids ready for college math if they did this.

 

At ds college, those poor grades would have almost emptied the class. Ds had a math teacher that gave an entrance test, and everyone below 75% got sent to the next lower level class. But I guess you get these kids with a mandate to hand out good grades, right?

[ValRN]

Algebra 1 is a pre-requisite for Geometry-- and I have several Geometry students this year who cannot solve SIMPLE one-variable equations!

 

I also have Algebra 2 students who know nothing about basic factoring...

 

Unfortunately in PS and in many homeschools the students today are 'spoon fed' or use 'easy' curriculums so they do not LEARN TO THINK...

 

I feel your frustration.

 

 

Jann, I pray my ds is not one of the hs students that you are referring to. :001_smile:

 

I think that a child's motivation & drive also play a big role in test scores. My ds scored very well on the PSAT for critical reading and writing skills. However, his math scores were shamefully low. But I think his math scores were low because he is just that type of kid that doesn't want to put effort into anything that requires critical thinking or analyzing. He's lazy in that aspect. If he were going to ps and were tested, he would probably be one of the students that scored low.

 

I don't know what to do to get him self-motivated. I don't know what to do to increase his critical thinking and desire to analyze a problem before giving up.

 

So, I don't put all the blame on the ps system (or curriculum choice in a hsing situation) because I think we've got one of the best math teachers there is. I also think that her curriculum choice is above average. Yet, my ds still scored horribly on the math portion of the PSAT.

 

Just my 2 cents. You can give me back some change if you'd like. :D

[Jann in TX]

Just so you know-- The PSAT math questions are NOT designed to test proficiency in Algebra -Geometry. They test 'reasoning' and 'test practicing' skills.

 

If teachers taught to the PSAT/SAT/ACT tests then students would NEVER be successful in college maths!

 

The PSAT is the WORST among those tests for how it 'tests' math proficiency.

 

The ACT is closer to a proficiency test...

 

SAT is a combination.

 

Remember that the PSAT is NOT a practice SAT test-- it is a completely separate test-- again it is reasoning based not achievement based.

 

Those who do well on the math portion of the PSAT are either 'natural' math students with exceptional reasoning skills-- OR they have been drilled to death.

 

Making A's in high school math classes is no guarantee that the PSAT or SAT math scores will be high (it helps some though)... it should result in a high ACT math score though.

[Tullia]

 

I seriously want to pull him out again - like NOW - but the call I got when we were afraid he had killed himself is not worth the risk. I have to settle for second best educationally. Having my son alive is more important.

 

Yes, absolutely! That trumps everything else. My son did not return to ps, but we did have to scale back our academic plans when he was diagnosed with Type I diabetes in 8th/9th grade. Believe me, beyond the initial medical challenges, I worried about him becoming seriously depressed. I know about icy, paralyzing fear in the wee hours. We made the adjustments that had to be made. He did not have time to finish the progym writing I'd hoped to do. He did not take calculus in high school. But, life is good and he is thriving in college. I think the biggest danger of poor academics plus inflated grades is obliviousness--but as long as you "know what you don't know" the remedy is possible.

 

ETA: I shared your "Learn from others..." tagline with ds we were just chatting about life in general and complaining about bad drivers. He gave an emphatic nod and grin.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Martha in NM

[Julie in MN]

Just so you know-- The PSAT math questions are NOT designed to test proficiency in Algebra -Geometry. They test 'reasoning' and 'test practicing' skills.

 

 

Yes, that is my understanding. Jim Stobaugh actually gives a whole seminar about this. He feels the ACT is more of a test of content, whereas the SAT is more of an IQ test of sorts. I think both ideas have merit (and in practice, both have major flaws). Sometimes a better predictor of success is an ability to think and to figure things out, rather than having memorized a certain fact set.

 

Julie

[creekland]

Just so you know-- The PSAT math questions are NOT designed to test proficiency in Algebra -Geometry. They test 'reasoning' and 'test practicing' skills.

 

If teachers taught to the PSAT/SAT/ACT tests then students would NEVER be successful in college maths!

 

The PSAT is the WORST among those tests for how it 'tests' math proficiency.

 

The ACT is closer to a proficiency test...

 

SAT is a combination.

 

Remember that the PSAT is NOT a practice SAT test-- it is a completely separate test-- again it is reasoning based not achievement based.

 

Those who do well on the math portion of the PSAT are either 'natural' math students with exceptional reasoning skills-- OR they have been drilled to death.

 

Making A's in high school math classes is no guarantee that the PSAT or SAT math scores will be high (it helps some though)... it should result in a high ACT math score though.

 

Kids at our school seldom do well on the PSAT/SAT/ACT. They just don't have the math skills. Fortunately, my own two boys did well on the PSAT/SAT, but they did even better on the ACT. :)

 

I'm hoping my youngest can do average on those tests. He is a slow processor and won't be able to do the problems in the time allotted.

[Nan in Mass]

Definately alive is better. I made that choice with my oldest. After much of Martha's icy, paralyzing, wee hours fear, we appear to be doing ok. He is thriving in college now. The college wisely insisted that he take CC intermediate algebra the spring before coming. It would be have been better to do the algebra and also precalc, but my son survived. I'd vote for alive any day. As I keep saying over and over, college admittance isn't really that important compared to making sure they don't die driving around. Or some other way. The unstable teens are at least thinking, or they wouldn't be so unstable. Thinking people usually turn into compassionate, wise adults eventually, if you can keep them alive.

Hugs,

-Nan

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Just so you know-- The PSAT math questions are NOT designed to test proficiency in Algebra -Geometry. They test 'reasoning' and 'test practicing' skills.

 

If teachers taught to the PSAT/SAT/ACT tests then students would NEVER be successful in college maths!

 

The PSAT is the WORST among those tests for how it 'tests' math proficiency.

 

The ACT is closer to a proficiency test...

 

SAT is a combination.

 

Remember that the PSAT is NOT a practice SAT test-- it is a completely separate test-- again it is reasoning based not achievement based.

 

Those who do well on the math portion of the PSAT are either 'natural' math students with exceptional reasoning skills-- OR they have been drilled to death.

 

Making A's in high school math classes is no guarantee that the PSAT or SAT math scores will be high (it helps some though)... it should result in a high ACT math score though.

That's interesting. I had my ds take the PSAT this year for practice; he'd completed Algebra 1 and 1/4 to 1/3 of Algebra 2 but no Geometry. He didn't score very well on the Algebra section but score very well on the Geometry section:lol: I had already thought he would like Geometry better than Algebra because of the way his brain works but was still surprised.

 

ETA that we didn't do any preparation at all.

[creekland]

At ds college, those poor grades would have almost emptied the class. Ds had a math teacher that gave an entrance test, and everyone below 75% got sent to the next lower level class. But I guess you get these kids with a mandate to hand out good grades, right?

 

No almost about it. The highest percentage was 61% on the "review." But, the school could never admit a student didn't learn the material. After all, it gave them credit for the course.

 

This wasn't a case of small errors either. The majority of questions they got wrong they didn't even attempt to complete. I gave half credit for a simple error.

[creekland]

Yes, absolutely! That trumps everything else. My son did not return to ps, but we did have to scale back our academic plans when he was diagnosed with Type I diabetes in 8th/9th grade. Believe me, beyond the initial medical challenges, I worried about him becoming seriously depressed. I know about icy, paralyzing fear in the wee hours. We made the adjustments that had to be made. He did not have time to finish the progym writing I'd hoped to do. He did not take calculus in high school. But, life is good and he is thriving in college. I think the biggest danger of poor academics plus inflated grades is obliviousness--but as long as you "know what you don't know" the remedy is possible.

 

ETA: I shared your "Learn from others..." tagline with ds we were just chatting about life in general and complaining about bad drivers. He gave an emphatic nod and grin.

 

Glad you liked the "learn from others..." motto. I live by that some days.

 

Also glad to hear your guy is doing well in college. I had an uplifting (to me) talk with youngest last night. He took a "personal strengths" test in health class and suddenly realized he has some of the strengths we've been trying to tell him about over the years. His strengths aren't the same as those of his brothers, but they are equally as useful in the right niche. He just never considered his talents and loves "strengths" as the world doesn't often label them that way.

 

I think, right now, he's starting to see a future for himself and, perhaps, a way to get there. That's such a plus to me that I'm not caring as much (today) that he's in a crummy school. He can overcome the crummy school with afterschooling some things and a good attitude. Maybe he can help some peers too.

 

I just have to hope the new light that starting showing in his brain stays lit.

[creekland]

Definately alive is better. I made that choice with my oldest. After much of Martha's icy, paralyzing, wee hours fear, we appear to be doing ok. He is thriving in college now. The college wisely insisted that he take CC intermediate algebra the spring before coming. It would be have been better to do the algebra and also precalc, but my son survived. I'd vote for alive any day. As I keep saying over and over, college admittance isn't really that important compared to making sure they don't die driving around. Or some other way. The unstable teens are at least thinking, or they wouldn't be so unstable. Thinking people usually turn into compassionate, wise adults eventually, if you can keep them alive.

Hugs,

-Nan

 

Thanks for sharing the encouragement. This is definitely my deep thinking guy, and if he can get through his teenaged years I know he'll have a niche he loves. He's certainly compassionate. We're working on the wise. ;)

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

Some public school students excel in higher math. Some fail. Some don't care.

 

Some home schools students excel in higher math. Some fail. Some don't care.

 

Understanding the basics is so important!

 

I sometimes think that if my kids would have gone to school they would be better with math. Reading threads like this help me to understand that every form of schooling has its strenghts and weaknesses.

 

At least with homeschooling we don't promote our kids to trig and calc without basic understanding of algebra! (Most of the time anyway!)

 

This thread also makes me feel better about my dd moving so slowly in MUS Algebra 2. I've worried that she'll not be far enough along in the book to justify a full credit. But I would much rather move slowly and have her understand to the best of her ability!

 

Thanks for posting!