Which of These Two Options

[1Togo]

If you had a student who will enter high school needing more time on logic-level English, math and study skills, which of these two options would you do?

 

1. Use a lightweight science curriculum so you can assign a credit

 

or

 

2. Skip science altogether to focus on the skills, and then do rigorous biology, chemistry, and physics during 10th, 11th and 12 grade, which would realistic for this student, our dd. By then, her English and math skills will be on track. Btw, some history and science is being covered in the English portion of the day.

 

I realize students planning to major in science need more than three sciences, but dd, though working and hard and catching up, will not have the skills and independence for high school level work in 9th grade -- at least the first semester of 9th grade -- and too many subjects overwhelm her. She has substantial time commitments with her music, and while she may not major in music, there is scholarship potential to play with an orchestra.

Edited January 9, 2011 by 1Togo

[Julie in MN]

I would worry that you will box yourself in by meeting too many requirements in 12th grade, limiting other options that come along, etc.

 

I might at least do something for science. Maybe earn one semester over the whole year? Maybe do something she would really like.

 

Although, if she seems capable of Physics, rather than an easier 3rd program like Conceptual Physics or Physical Science, then I'm sure she'll be fine.

 

Julie

[coffeegal]

If you had a student who will enter high school needing more time on logic-level English, math and study skills, which of these two options would you do?

 

1. Use a lightweight science curriculum so you can assign a credit

 

or

 

2. Skip science altogether to focus on the skills, and then do rigorous biology, chemistry, and physics during 10th, 11th and 12 grade, which would realistic for this student, our dd. By then, her English and math skills will be on track. Btw, some history and science is being covered in the English portion of the day.

 

I realize students planning to major in science need more than three sciences, but dd, though working and hard and catching up, will not have the skills and independence for high school level work in 9th grade -- at least the first semester of 9th grade -- and too many subjects overwhelm her. She has substantial time commitments with her music, and while she may not major in music, there is scholarship potential to play with an orchestra.

 

1 - using it to focus on study skills. (My preference would be physical science as it's normal to see it as a 9th grade science.) 12th grade science would then be optional. In my experience time commitments increase between 9th and 12th grades, and she might need to drop science to focus on her passions at that time. This gives you more options in the long run than dropping science at this time.

[1Togo]

So, would it work to do physical science this way? Get the Table of Contents from a standard textbook and work through the topics by reading and using a variety of study skills. We could then do experiments at the end of the year. Also, if all goes as planned, she will finish calculus during her junior year. Physics would be one of the heavyweights for the senior year. We're starting high school with government and economics. Those have gotten shortchanged in the past in our home, and I think they are two of the most important courses for high school. After her writing gets under control, we have three years to do world and American history with literature.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

So, would it work to do physical science this way? Get the Table of Contents from a standard textbook and work through the topics by reading and using a variety of study skills. We could then do experiments at the end of the year. Also, if all goes as planned, she will finish calculus during her junior year. Physics would be one of the heavyweights for the senior year. We're starting high school with government and economics. Those have gotten shortchanged in the past in our home, and I think they are two of the most important courses for high school. After her writing gets under control, we have three years to do world and American history with literature.

What is she taking now? I'm a little confused as you said she's behind in math but then said she will be taking Calculus in 11th grade.

[1Togo]

She is behind in math, but we school year round. We use Saxon, and if the student works the lessons during the week and takes the test on Saturday, she can finish two books per year. One of our sons worked through 87 and Algebra 1/2 in 8th grade. Algebra 1 and Algebra II in 9th grade. In 10th, he completed the Advanced Math book and a good part of Calculus. He finished Calculus before the end of the first semester of 11th grade. It's basically college pacing - a textbook per semester. Another son started with a different book, but he worked through two books per year as well. We've got the same game plan with our last student.

Edited January 9, 2011 by 1Togo

[Julie in MN]

One of our sons worked through 87 and Algebra 1/2 in 8th grade.

 

If your student does well in 87, then 1/2 may not be needed. At least that's MFW's recommendation. Maybe that would help?

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

She is behind in math, but we school year round. We use Saxon, and if the student works the lessons during the week and takes the test on Saturday, she can finish two books per year. One of our sons worked through 87 and Algebra 1/2 in 8th grade. Algebra 1 and Algebra II in 9th grade. In 10th, he completed the Advanced Math book and a good part of Calculus. He finished Calculus before the end of the first semester of 11th grade. It's basically college pacing - a textbook per semester. Another son started with a different book, but he worked through two books per year as well. We've got the same game plan with our last student.

If she will end up doing Calculus in 11th I'd be more inclined to slow down on math (or at least not speed up) and focus more on science.

[1Togo]

Cheryl,

 

We're leaving 12th grade for subject/events that will be time consuming; i.e. speech club, a college course or two, graduation, and prepping for college orchestra auditions as well as senior recital. Plus, we work on ACT/SAT prep even during the senior year because our children take the test at least one more time during their senior year, unless they are off the charts with their scores. By then, they've already received college acceptance, but a higher ACT/SAT score can push up the scholarship level even during the senior year. That happened with one of our sons. I'm still back to the lighter course option or skipping science altogether except for reading and integration with history/composition.

 

I appreciate the ideas.

[1Togo]

Julie,

 

I didn't know MFW recommends this, but I know other people do. However, we've always done every book and every problem. Using our schdule, our children finish their high school math early, leaving time for additional math or subjects. Our mathy student may not have needed 1/2, but he flew through it. Our non-math students need 1/2. It's always a juggle of interests/subjects/time.

[Teachin'Mine]

I know that many homeschoolers do work year round, but with that they tend to have a lighter weekly schedule. Are you doing a full day of school on Saturday or just the math tests?

 

As for science, I think it's great to do a physical science course before the others as it's a great intro to them.

[1Togo]

Saturday is math test only, and occasional straggling work from the week. I am leaning toward physical science as you suggest because it's an intro to chem and physics. However, we need to do physical science light. We are using BJU Earth Science this year, and while it is wonderful, we spend a lot of time on science. One of sons skipped physical science and rocketed through bio, chem and physics. He ended up going a different direction than science, but he could have added an advanced science in the end. 9th grade is going to be heavy on math, English and study skills for dd. Plus, she has music commitments. There are only so many hours in the day. I'm am still wrestling with this and appreciate the ideas.

[Miss Marple]

If you had a student who will enter high school needing more time on logic-level English, math and study skills, which of these two options would you do?

 

1. Use a lightweight science curriculum so you can assign a credit

 

or

 

2. Skip science altogether to focus on the skills, and then do rigorous biology, chemistry, and physics during 10th, 11th and 12 grade, which would realistic for this student, our dd. By then, her English and math skills will be on track. Btw, some history and science is being covered in the English portion of the day.

 

I realize students planning to major in science need more than three sciences, but dd, though working and hard and catching up, will not have the skills and independence for high school level work in 9th grade -- at least the first semester of 9th grade -- and too many subjects overwhelm her. She has substantial time commitments with her music, and while she may not major in music, there is scholarship potential to play with an orchestra.

 

I like the idea of a planned out high school, but remember that each year may bring something new and you may have to revamp your goals/plans.

 

For a student entering high school needing work on the basics (math, grammar, etc.), I would use 9th grade to focus on those. Hit them hard, but you still need to cover the other courses, IMO. But I would choose a science course that is easy to get done (Conceptual Physics was my choice) and utilize as many online/video type courses (electives) to complete the course load. We shoot for 6 courses per year.

 

This year I have 9th and 10th graders. Both needed more emphasis on math, grammar, and writing this year. They have good science and reading scores (on the ACT) so we are just doing the minimum there this year. I'm also working on test prep with them. Definitely get those basic skills up before moving on (that's what I would do).

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Cheryl,

 

We're leaving 12th grade for subject/events that will be time consuming; i.e. speech club, a college course or two, graduation, and prepping for college orchestra auditions as well as senior recital. Plus, we work on ACT/SAT prep even during the senior year because our children take the test at least one more time during their senior year, unless they are off the charts with their scores. By then, they've already received college acceptance, but a higher ACT/SAT score can push up the scholarship level even during the senior year. That happened with one of our sons. I'm still back to the lighter course option or skipping science altogether except for reading and integration with history/composition.

 

I appreciate the ideas.

I see. We do science and math (also History, English, etc) every year so I assumed you would be as well. What does your dd think?

[1Togo]

Cheryl,

 

She's interested in everything, but she sees that she can't do all the English review work and history and rigorous science and art and read as much as she does and ...

[1Togo]

Cynthia,

 

That's exactly my plan. Hit the basics hard in 9th grade. In the past, we've found that each subject takes at least 1 hour at the high school level. English and math will take longer for dd (they are taking longer than that now), so we can't do six subjects because of dd's commitments with music. Perhaps we complete science at the end of the year and through the summer before 10th grade. I'm still wrestling with this. Where can I look at and order Conceptual Physics?

 

Thank you.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Cheryl,

 

She's interested in everything, but she sees that she can't do all the English review work and history and rigorous science and art and read as much as she does and ...

:lol: I was hoping her input would make the decision making easier. Guess not:001_huh:

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Cynthia,

 

That's exactly my plan. Hit the basics hard in 9th grade. In the past, we've found that each subject takes at least 1 hour at the high school level. English and math will take longer for dd (they are taking longer than that now), so we can't do six subjects because of dd's commitments with music. Perhaps we complete science at the end of the year and through the summer before 10th grade. I'm still wrestling with this. Where can I look at and order Conceptual Physics?

 

Thank you.

If you dd does a conceptual physics will she still do physics in 12th grade? I would want only 1 physics course on her transcript and if she does conceptual physics now I'd do a different advanced science course in 12th.

[1Togo]

Cheryl,

 

You are right about the physics. Yikes! Back to the drawing board. I keep thinking, 'If we need to start 9th grade by integrating science with history and compostion, that's alright. When dd gets writing and math under control, then she can launch with science. Yes, it's not the normal path, but that's the beauty of homeschool.' Also, the schools that dd will probably attend look primarily at scores for homeschool students. Gee, we get the schedule straight in one area (music practice, for instance), and then things go awry in another area.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Cheryl,

 

You are right about the physics. Yikes! Back to the drawing board. I keep thinking, 'If we need to start 9th grade by integrating science with history and compostion, that's alright. When dd gets writing and math under control, then she can launch with science. Yes, it's not the normal path, but that's the beauty of homeschool.' Also, the schools that dd will probably attend look primarily at scores for homeschool students.

Well, could you do a different conceptual science course? Aren't there other conceptual science courses besides physics?

[1Togo]

I dont' know about other conceptual science courses, but I will check into it. I saw on Greg Landry's website that his pre-physics course uses a Hudson Tiner book we have on the shelf, so it's possible to give credits without a textbook curriculum.

Edited January 13, 2011 by 1Togo

[Miss Marple]

I wouldn't worry about having 2 physics on a transcript. Conceptual Physics is an introductory physics course and would be appropriately listed as conceptual physics or introductory physics for 9th grade. An admissions counselor would know the difference between the two. I plan to have mine do a trig/calculus based physics in 12th grade so they will have 2 listed.

 

Your plan will need to take into account the type of university/college she wishes to attend. If it is a liberal arts, 3 sciences will be fine. If she is looking into a science based field, the recommendations I've seen suggest a science every year. And, some of the universities we looked at do not consider physical science to be high school level.

 

You can find out a lot about Hewitt's Conceptual Physics and some of the other conceptual physics publishers by searching this board. There is a LOT of information about the course here.

[1Togo]

Cynthia,

 

Thank you for the information. Now, I have more to think about. I will look for the Conceptual Physics threads. Where do you purchase Conceptual Physics and are there teacher and student books available?

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I wouldn't worry about having 2 physics on a transcript. Conceptual Physics is an introductory physics course and would be appropriately listed as conceptual physics or introductory physics for 9th grade. An admissions counselor would know the difference between the two. I plan to have mine do a trig/calculus based physics in 12th grade so they will have 2 listed.

 

Your plan will need to take into account the type of university/college she wishes to attend. If it is a liberal arts, 3 sciences will be fine. If she is looking into a science based field, the recommendations I've seen suggest a science every year. And, some of the universities we looked at do not consider physical science to be high school level.

 

You can find out a lot about Hewitt's Conceptual Physics and some of the other conceptual physics publishers by searching this board. There is a LOT of information about the course here.

I know I'm not the OP but I hope you don't mind me asking a question:001_smile: Wouldn't it be better to have 4 different sciences instead of 2 physics? My concern wouldn't be that the admissions counselor wouldn't be able to figure it out, but that it wouldn't look good to sacrifice a science slot to conceptual physics if she is going to take Physics later. Wouldn't it look better to have more varied science courses on her transcript unless she is wanting to go into a field based on Physics?

[Miss Marple]

I know I'm not the OP but I hope you don't mind me asking a question:001_smile: Wouldn't it be better to have 4 different sciences instead of 2 physics? My concern wouldn't be that the admissions counselor wouldn't be able to figure it out, but that it wouldn't look good to sacrifice a science slot to conceptual physics if she is going to take Physics later. Wouldn't it look better to have more varied science courses on her transcript unless she is wanting to go into a field based on Physics?

 

If she isn't going into a science field I would only do 3 sciences and call it good with CP. I think doing 4 different sciences is certainly a good option as well and there are some I would entertain that aren't as "higher level math" based as physics. For my boys, CP is non-negotiable because it gives them a leg up on the math calc based physics they take later which, for us, has translated into less stress and better grades in calc physics. It is also one of my top 5 curriculums we've used :D.

 

Sorry for typos I'm working on my iPad because the boys have taken all the computers!

 

If I were working towards 4 courses in science and my student wasn't particularly mathy I would choose astronomy, botany, A&P, or environmental

science. If one is wishing to do science light in early high school there are other courses thru the Teaxhing Company that would work well and not take a huge chunk of time. But I would work toward getting at least 3 sciences in early and leave 12th as a catch-all year. I haven't been able to do a time intensive science in 12th because of all the other senior year stuff that gets in the way. But that's just us, others may be able to do more.

 

Fwiw, my oldest did not take a calc based physics in high school. But he is one of the top petroleum engineering students at his university. The lack no physics other than CP did not hurt him in admissions or scholarships (he is fully funded - tuition, fees, room and board). He did take college level calc while concurrently enrolled and having that under his belt made college physics easier as well.

Edited January 10, 2011 by CynthiaOK
Typos

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

If she isn't going into a science field I would only do 3 sciences and call it good with CP. I think doing 4 different sciences is certainly a good option as well and there are some I would entertain that aren't as "higher level math" based as physics. For my boys, CP is non-negotiable because it gives them a leg up on the math calc based physics they take later which, for us, has translated into less stress and better grades in calc physics. It is also one of my top 5 curriculums we've used :D.

 

Sorry for typos I'm working on my iPad because the boys have taken all the computers!

 

If I were working towards 4 courses in science and my student wasn't particularly mathy I would choose astronomy, botany, A&P, or environmental

science. If one is wishing to do science light in early high school there are other courses thru the Teaxhing Company that would work well and not take a huge chunk of time. But I would work toward getting at least 3 sciences in early and leave 12th as a catch-all year. I haven't been able to do a time intensive science in 12th because of all the other senior year stuff that gets in the way. But that's just us, others may be able to do more.

 

Fwiw, my oldest did not take a calc based physics in high school. But he is one of the top petroleum engineering students at his university. The lack no physics other than CP did not hurt him in admissions or scholarships (he is fully funded - tuition, fees, room and board). He did take college level calc while concurrently enrolled and having that under his belt made college physics easier as well.

Thank you for responding:001_smile: I only put 4 sciences because that is what the OP is going to be doing. If she only did 3 science courses and did a Conceptual Physics and regular Physics then that would leave her with only 1 science course that wasn't Physics. Wouldn't either option (either 1/2 or 2/3 of her science classes being Physics) look strange?

[Miss Marple]

Thank you for responding:001_smile: I only put 4 sciences because that is what the OP is going to be doing. If she only did 3 science courses and did a Conceptual Physics and regular Physics then that would leave her with only 1 science course that wasn't Physics. Wouldn't either option (either 1/2 or 2/3 of her science classes being Physics) look strange?

 

I agree. If just doing 3 I would nix upper level physics. One should also consider the courses that the individual college wants from high schoolers. I typically see biology and chemistry specified and the other 1or2 courses are left up to the individual. Still I would do CP because physics is the base science that explains the subsequent sciences. I'm a proponent of the "physics first" philosophy. We like CP then chemistry then biology then elective. That's the logical progression of information, IMO. And since the OP is looking for an easier way to do science in 9th I think CP fits the bill but I'm sure there are other courses that would do as well. I, personally, would not recommend skipping 9th grade science.

[silliness7]

I have a young 7th grader with a Sept. b-day. He works at a solid 7th grade level but has some maturity issues. I *might* give him an extra year in the logic stage and start him in 9th grade as if he were in 6th grade this year. He has never taken a standardized test and so there would be no paper trail of me "holding him back a grade." I don't know if he would be agreeable to it or if it would even be necessary. We'll see. It's an idea.

 

I am definitely going to do that with my 5th grader who works at a 4th grade level. He was born in June. I'm pretty much going to treat him as if I had put him in a young 5's class and then kindergarten at 6. I have a nephew with a July b-day who did this sequence. Otherwise, it would not have occurred to me. It makes me very happy to think of having an extra year with my 5th grader. He's just a late academic bloomer.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I agree. If just doing 3 I would nix upper level physics. One should also consider the courses that the individual college wants from high schoolers. I typically see biology and chemistry specified and the other 1or2 courses are left up to the individual. Still I would do CP because physics is the base science that explains the subsequent sciences. I'm a proponent of the "physics first" philosophy. We like CP then chemistry then biology then elective. That's the logical progression of information, IMO. And since the OP is looking for an easier way to do science in 9th I think CP fits the bill but I'm sure there are other courses that would do as well. I, personally, would not recommend skipping 9th grade science.

Thank you:001_smile: I agree about CP probably being the best option for the OP but wouldn't want to do both Physics courses, and wouldn't want to skip science in 9th grade.

 

I'll have to look at some of the CP threads and compare the TOC with the Physical Science course that my kids take before Biology because it's supposed to cover some physics. We take a fairly normal Biology, Chemistry, A&P, Physics route. Actually, ds #2 is in Chemistry in 9th so he'll be taking an additional science of his choosing in 12th grade.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I have a young 7th grader with a Sept. b-day. He works at a solid 7th grade level but has some maturity issues. I *might* give him an extra year in the logic stage and start him in 9th grade as if he were in 6th grade this year. He has never taken a standardized test and so there would be no paper trail of me "holding him back a grade." I don't know if he would be agreeable to it or if it would even be necessary. We'll see. It's an idea.

 

I am definitely going to do that with my 5th grader who works at a 4th grade level. He was born in June. I'm pretty much going to treat him as if I had put him in a young 5's class and then kindergarten at 6. I have a nephew with a July b-day who did this sequence. Otherwise, it would not have occurred to me. It makes me very happy to think of having an extra year with my 5th grader. He's just a late academic bloomer.

I did exactly that with my current 9th grader who has a September birthday. He didn't mind at all. In fact, he was happy about it. He said he was in 6th grade but that he had a 7th grade brain:lol:

 

He has always been advanced so I had him young for his grade level. As he got older I realized that the grade level of the work he was doing had nothing to do with the grade level he should be labeled. Instead of graduating at 17 he will have an extra year for increased maturity and more advanced classes.

[Miss Marple]

Thank you:001_smile: I agree about CP probably being the best option for the OP but wouldn't want to do both Physics courses, and wouldn't want to skip science in 9th grade.

 

I'll have to look at some of the CP threads and compare the TOC with the Physical Science course that my kids take before Biology because it's supposed to cover some physics. We take a fairly normal Biology, Chemistry, A&P, Physics route. Actually, ds #2 is in Chemistry in 9th so he'll be taking an additional science of his choosing in 12th grade.

 

I'm in a similar position with my 9th grader. He did CP in 8th and is now taking chemistry in 9th. I don't intend to give credit for CP although he scored a solid A performing better than some of my older students in co-op. He is also advanced in math and I can see doing calc based physics in 12th with him. He'll have to choose an elective science in 11th. That will be the year he gets calculus done (if the math pace stays the same for him). I dont want him doing physics and calc at the same time :D

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I'm in a similar position with my 9th grader. He did CP in 8th and is now taking chemistry in 9th. I don't intend to give credit for CP although he scored a solid A performing better than some of my older students in co-op. He is also advanced in math and I can see doing calc based physics in 12th with him. He'll have to choose an elective science in 11th. That will be the year he gets calculus done (if the math pace stays the same for him). I dont want him doing physics and calc at the same time :D

My PSP (Private School PSP) doesn't include anything taken in 8th grade on the transcript so we wouldn't have the option. Colleges will know that he took Biology, Algebra 1, etc because of the courses that are on his transcript but they won't be on his transcript.

 

That's a good point about Calculus and Physics at the same time. Since I use LoF a year behind MUS (our main math program) maybe I'll have him do Statistics in 11th (with LoF Trig) and then Calculus in 12th.

[Kareni]

Well, could you do a different conceptual science course? Aren't there other conceptual science courses besides physics?

 

Yes, there is also Conceptual Chemistry and Conceptual Physical Science.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[1Togo]

I haven't looked at the Conceptual courses yet, but after looking at BJU and Abeka Physical Science, I can see a big difference. Both are 9th grade high school courses, but the first half of Abeka Physical Science covers material that we are covering in BJU 8th Earth and Space this year. The second half covers chemistry/physics intro. BJU is chemistry/physics all the way, and it is more difficult. After seeing that, I am even more inclined to do it my way. It's really matter of time and focus. I have seen this in public school courses as well; i.e. gifted classes with little to no writing until late high school. Honors English classes that require the students to read three easy books all year.