Output for those quirky kids

[elegantlion]

We've talked about input and scheduling and unique way to cover subjects for quirky kids. Can we now discuss output? I'm fairly creative and have done some spontaneous assignments with ds based upon what we are studying, but the logical part of my brain has no clue how to grade based upon some of these assignments.

 

When we used Abeka for 1st-3rd it was easy to grade. In 4th grade I had a complex grading system that I designed, but it was based upon traditional output, tests, worksheets, etc. In 5th, 6th, and 7th we haven't graded. It's been wonderful. But I'm feeling the need to start grading in 8th as a trial run and then keep better grades in high school.

 

I've looked at rubrics for writing, math seems fairly straightforward, but what about grading discussions, non-traditional assignments? Last week we had a wonderful hour long discussion on film making and literature. Totally spontaneous, no doubt it was an "A" discussion, but they don't always go so smoothly.

 

So are there rubrics for discussions? Video presentations? I'd love not to reinvent the wheel, but I know I'll panic if I don't have some system in place by next fall.

 

Ideas? Commiseration?

[Guest]

This is not exactly an answer to your question, more of a meditation.

 

Dd briefly attended a private school that prided itself on a "Harkness table discussion" method. Basically all this means is that the kids sat at an oval table instead of at individual desks, and there were attempts at guided conversations. At one point the teacher said a graded discussion was coming up, and that future conversations were going to be graded.

 

What a freezing up of spontaneous and honest comments, a fear to ask questions, an immediate transfer of energy from the content of comments to what grade might be assigned them! If the teacher valued kids asking questions of other kids, out would come the questions, regardless of whether or not there was something to ask about or the kids had any interest in the answers. It was the saddest, and most ridiculous, thing I ever witnessed (I sat in on a couple of classes where this occurred).

 

Having a child who for many years was severely dysgraphic with limited written output, I know the pressure to evaluate other avenues; but my brush with the graded discussion really put me off that idea completely. I value talk as real communication far too much to make either my dd or myself conscious of whether it is meeting certain criteria as we go.

 

No answers or perfect solutions here. But have you considered asking your child perhaps to discuss evaluation with you, to propose methods of showing or demonstrating what he or she has learned, to help assemble a portfolio, or begin to participate in the evaluation process? (By this I don't mean having the kid say, "I think it's an A, Mom," and that's the end of it.)

 

We use Clonlara as our cover school, and at the high school level the student is supposed to be involved in setting learning goals at the beginning of the year and evaluating the extent to which those goals were achieved. This is our first year in high school with formal grades; I didn't grade all the way through 8th, although my mental thoughts about how dd performed were confirmed in the grades she got during the time she was in private school. So I don't know how the supervising teachers/overseers will steer us. However, they do want the students actively involved in the decisions.

[elegantlion]

Having a child who for many years was severely dysgraphic with limited written output, I know the pressure to evaluate other avenues; but my brush with the graded discussion really put me off that idea completely. I value talk as real communication far too much to make either my dd or myself conscious of whether it is meeting certain criteria as we go.

 

No answers or perfect solutions here. But have you considered asking your child perhaps to discuss evaluation with you, to propose methods of showing or demonstrating what he or she has learned, to help assemble a portfolio, or begin to participate in the evaluation process? (By this I don't mean having the kid say, "I think it's an A, Mom," and that's the end of it.)

 

We use Clonlara as our cover school, and at the high school level the student is supposed to be involved in setting learning goals at the beginning of the year and evaluating the extent to which those goals were achieved. This is our first year in high school with formal grades; I didn't grade all the way through 8th, although my mental thoughts about how dd performed were confirmed in the grades she got during the time she was in private school. So I don't know how the supervising teachers/overseers will steer us. However, they do want the students actively involved in the decisions.

 

KarenAnne, Thank you! This is exactly what I DON'T want to do, squelch his love of discussion. We're going to regroup ourselves after the first of the year, that would be a good time to revisit our goals and add more of his input. I appreciate your advice.

[Guest]

Still thinking... if you value discussions for their own sake and not for how well kids perform, what about doing a kind of mini-oral exam at the end of a chapter, section, semester? You could give your child a list of topics or issues or elements that will be potentially up for assessment, as you would give a regular study key type of thing for a written essay exam. Then when your child has gone over the material in whatever ways or to what extent you both feel is sufficient, ask a few essay-type questions formally. Give him or her time to jot notes down or make points to cover, and then begin a sort of more formal version of narration.

 

I wouldn't do that for every subject, but for history, or for literature, that might work. What do you think? I'm working on ways to do this myself for dd, so your feedback is good for me at this end too.

[elegantlion]

Still thinking... if you value discussions for their own sake and not for how well kids perform, what about doing a kind of mini-oral exam at the end of a chapter, section, semester? You could give your child a list of topics or issues or elements that will be potentially up for assessment, as you would give a regular study key type of thing for a written essay exam. Then when your child has gone over the material in whatever ways or to what extent you both feel is sufficient, ask a few essay-type questions formally. Give him or her time to jot notes down or make points to cover, and then begin a sort of more formal version of narration.

 

I wouldn't do that for every subject, but for history, or for literature, that might work. What do you think? I'm working on ways to do this myself for dd, so your feedback is good for me at this end too.

 

What a great idea. History and literature are the two subjects where we tend to drift into rabbit holes, which I love. My son is a delayed reader and his writing skills are slowly catching up, but he has very good comprehension. I see how an oral essay could be helpful in many ways...going to ponder that tonight. Thank you.

[Mommyfaithe]

If you go to the Ambleside Online website and look at exams, you might get some great ideas for evaluations.

 

Faithe

[Corraleno]

I agree with KarenAnne about not trying to grade individual discussions. If this is a big part of your homeschool (and it is here, too), then maybe you could just include an "oral discussion" component in your final, end-of-year grade. IOW, instead of trying to grade every discussion, just add in what you feel the discussions were worth at the end of the year, e.g.: Daily assignments (or whatever) A-; Oral discussion A; Exam I B+; Exam II A+. If each of those components = 25% of the grade, the final grade would be an A.

 

As for coming up with a grading rubric for various projects, oral exams, etc., I'd just make up a very simple rubric that would apply to almost anything, such as:

Grade C: Demonstrates basic mastery of key facts; thoughts and ideas are simply organized and expressed in a clear but not original way; does not make connections to topics outside of the basic subject; answers questions correctly but does not elaborate.

Grade B: Demonstrates mastery of key facts; thoughts and ideas are reasonably well organized and expressed in a clear and correct way; makes simple but original connections to other topics or subjects; answers questions correctly and with some depth.

Grade A: Demonstrates mastery of more than just the key facts; thoughts and ideas are well organized and expressed in a clear, correct, and original way; makes meaningful and original connections to other topics or subjects; demonstrates excellent critical and analytical skills; answers questions with depth and originality.

 

I just made that up as an example, you could probably find similar rubrics online, but you can also just write your own in a way that fits the way you school, and as long as you apply it consistently, I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.

 

Jackie

[Guest]

We vary what forms "output" takes a lot. But with the mini-oral exam idea I was thinking ahead to required essay exams in high school and college. This way dd would get practice in focused review, note-taking, having essay-type questions posed, thinking them through, making a quick list of items to cover, and then talking it through -- everything but the physical act of having to get her answer down on paper under the pressure of a time limit.

 

We do many, many other things. At the moment dd is writing a spoof of Macbeth (as a musical!). This requires the same understanding of the play's structure, language, and character motivation as would a formal essay; it's just expressed differently, and she has no time limit. I would also be happy if she memorized and recited a monologue from the play for the family; researched and drew costume and/or set ideas for a historically accurate production; watched different versions of the plays and made an informal list of the actors who played a major role -- Lady Macbeth, or Duncan, or whichever role she chose -- and made a chart of their similarities and differences, or the differences over time in the ways the play is staged. The output doesn't have to be in essay format to require critical thought and deliberation.

 

On the high school board there is an interesting thread just started about oral exams for calculus. Although the subject is not one I'm going to teach at home, the idea of an oral exam for math is really intriguing.

[Corraleno]

At the moment dd is writing a spoof of Macbeth (as a musical!).

That is so cool! I hope she'll be willing to share it when she's finished!

 

Jackie

[elegantlion]

If you go to the Ambleside Online website and look at exams, you might get some great ideas for evaluations.

 

Faithe

 

I've been poking around at the site recently. I'm putting the Churchill volumes as an option for history next year, so I've been looking at their history. I have not checked out the exams yet.

 

I agree with KarenAnne about not trying to grade individual discussions. If this is a big part of your homeschool (and it is here, too), then maybe you could just include an "oral discussion" component in your final, end-of-year grade. IOW, instead of trying to grade every discussion, just add in what you feel the discussions were worth at the end of the year, e.g.: Daily assignments (or whatever) A-; Oral discussion A; Exam I B+; Exam II A+. If each of those components = 25% of the grade, the final grade would be an A.

 

As for coming up with a grading rubric for various projects, oral exams, etc., I'd just make up a very simple rubric that would apply to almost anything, such as:

Grade C: Demonstrates basic mastery of key facts; thoughts and ideas are simply organized and expressed in a clear but not original way; does not make connections to topics outside of the basic subject; answers questions correctly but does not elaborate.

Grade B: Demonstrates mastery of key facts; thoughts and ideas are reasonably well organized and expressed in a clear and correct way; makes simple but original connections to other topics or subjects; answers questions correctly and with some depth.

Grade A: Demonstrates mastery of more than just the key facts; thoughts and ideas are well organized and expressed in a clear, correct, and original way; makes meaningful and original connections to other topics or subjects; demonstrates excellent critical and analytical skills; answers questions with depth and originality.

 

I just made that up as an example, you could probably find similar rubrics online, but you can also just write your own in a way that fits the way you school, and as long as you apply it consistently, I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.

 

Jackie

 

I'm fairly good at complicating easy tasks, so my dh would say. :D Thank you, the wording helps.

 

We vary what forms "output" takes a lot. But with the mini-oral exam idea I was thinking ahead to required essay exams in high school and college. This way dd would get practice in focused review, note-taking, having essay-type questions posed, thinking them through, making a quick list of items to cover, and then talking it through -- everything but the physical act of having to get her answer down on paper under the pressure of a time limit.

 

We do many, many other things. At the moment dd is writing a spoof of Macbeth (as a musical!). This requires the same understanding of the play's structure, language, and character motivation as would a formal essay; it's just expressed differently, and she has no time limit. I would also be happy if she memorized and recited a monologue from the play for the family; researched and drew costume and/or set ideas for a historically accurate production; watched different versions of the plays and made an informal list of the actors who played a major role -- Lady Macbeth, or Duncan, or whichever role she chose -- and made a chart of their similarities and differences, or the differences over time in the ways the play is staged. The output doesn't have to be in essay format to require critical thought and deliberation.

 

On the high school board there is an interesting thread just started about oral exams for calculus. Although the subject is not one I'm going to teach at home, the idea of an oral exam for math is really intriguing.

 

Once again, thank you. I'm off to read how to do an oral exam in math.