What order for this lit study? King Arthur & LotR

[elegantlion]

Which would you study first? I'm looking ahead to next year already and trying to line up my lit program for 8th.

 

I'd like to do the Duke TIP program on King Arthur and read through LotR. I'm considering using LL Lotr which I know includes a unit on Arthurian legends, but I'm trying to line up an option in case I decide NOT to use it. I considering this study for LOTR, I like free. :D

 

We read Green's version of King Arthur last year so he's familiar with the story. We've also watched all the LoTR movies so he's been introduced to Middle Earth. We're not even doing Middle Ages for history, we'll be into Early Modern times so the lit program will stand on its own.

 

It seems to me that it would be better to study King Arthur then move to LotR, but LL LOTR has the Arthurian unit as one of the last units. :confused:

 

WWYD?

[Teachaheart]

Personally, I think it is best to read King Arthur and Celtic/Norse mythology before reading LOTR because they form a foundational context in which to place the themes and characters of LOTR.

 

I'm not at all familiar with LL LOTR, but if you decided to use that would you be able to move the unit on Arthurian Legends to the beginning?

[Old Dominion Heather]

My opinion is that LOTR is a saga that deserves to be wallowed in and not analyzed, at least not the first time through. I would just read and discuss and wallow. Then maybe do a lit study the second time or third time through.

[Lori D.]

It seems to me that it would be better to study King Arthur then move to LotR, but LL LOTR has the Arthurian unit as one of the last units. :confused:

 

No advice as to what to do, but the reason Arthurian unit is one of the last units is that it matches up with the 3rd book of the trilogy nicely, because that is the book you get the most exposure to Gondor, the Arthurian-like, king/court culture. Beowulf matches up in the units with the 2nd book of the trilogy, because that's the book in which you are introduced to the culture of Rohan, the most Beowulf-like culture.

 

Hope that helps! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[elegantlion]

Personally, I think it is best to read King Arthur and Celtic/Norse mythology before reading LOTR because they form a foundational context in which to place the themes and characters of LOTR.

 

I'm not at all familiar with LL LOTR, but if you decided to use that would you be able to move the unit on Arthurian Legends to the beginning?

 

That was my thinking too.

 

My opinion is that LOTR is a saga that deserves to be wallowed in and not analyzed, at least not the first time through. I would just read and discuss and wallow. Then maybe do a lit study the second time or third time through.

 

That's one of the reasons I've wavering on LL LOTR. My son is not a big reader, this may be our one shot through the books together. I am going to splurge and buy the audio versions as well.

 

No advice as to what to do, but the reason Arthurian unit is one of the last units is that it matches up with the 3rd book of the trilogy nicely, because that is the book you get the most exposure to Gondor, the Arthurian-like, king/court culture. Beowulf matches up in the units with the 2nd book of the trilogy, because that's the book in which you are introduced to the culture of Rohan, the most Beowulf-like culture.

 

Hope that helps! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Lori, that does help very much, thank you.

[Teachaheart]

No advice as to what to do, but the reason Arthurian unit is one of the last units is that it matches up with the 3rd book of the trilogy nicely, because that is the book you get the most exposure to Gondor, the Arthurian-like, king/court culture. Beowulf matches up in the units with the 2nd book of the trilogy, because that's the book in which you are introduced to the culture of Rohan, the most Beowulf-like culture.

 

Hope that helps! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

That makes a lot of sense, and despite what I said in my earlier reply, I can see how interspersing the Beowulf and Arthurian units would work well.

[redsquirrel]

Before you splurge, FYI, I got the audio version from the library. My 10 year old read the series and is now really enjoying listing to the audio version.

 

If you do buy them, make sure it is unabridged. Also decide if you want it read by one reader or enacted by a cast, like a play, because both are out there.

[elegantlion]

That makes a lot of sense, and despite what I said in my earlier reply, I can see how interspersing the Beowulf and Arthurian units would work well.

 

It does make sense. We may use Beowulf in that fashion...much to ponder.

 

Before you splurge, FYI, I got the audio version from the library. My 10 year old read the series and is now really enjoying listing to the audio version.

 

If you do buy them, make sure it is unabridged. Also decide if you want it read by one reader or enacted by a cast, like a play, because both are out there.

 

Thank you. Yes, I spent some time a few months ago looking at all my options. I settled on the unabridged version read by Rob Inglis.

[redsquirrel]

That is what we got as well. My son is loving it. I am looking forward to listening to some on the drive to gmas at christmas.

[Lori D.]

My opinion is that LOTR is a saga that deserves to be wallowed in and not analyzed, at least not the first time through. I would just read and discuss and wallow. Then maybe do a lit study the second time or third time through.

 

 

Totally understand where you're coming from Heather, and we had read LOTR three times over the years as a family prior to doing LLftLotR. :) And while I agree with what you are saying about the analyzing, the actual LLftLotR study is one of the rare programs can actually be a fantastic addition to enjoying the books, rather than sucking the life out of them.

 

Here's out to accentuate that:

- Skip the fill-in-the-blank comprehension questions, vocabulary worksheets and quizzes.

- Skip the writing assignments.

- Read the books aloud together at night as a family and just ENJOY.

- Then, the next day as part of your school day, read the fantastic chapter notes that go with the chapter you read. Choose to do, or not do, the discussion questions -- but esp. the chapter notes will add so much more to look for and look forward to as you read through the books.

- Do the 12 units of tangential material as you want, in whatever order you want. For example, we were also reading ancients that year, and so we read the unit on the 11 Conventions of an Epic first, and it allowed us to look for those conventions in BOTH LotR AND Gilgamesh, Iliad, Odyssey, etc. We thoroughly enjoyed those 12 units and did not think of them as "work" or "school" (again, we skipped the writing assignments and any fill-in-the-blank stuff in the units -- just read and enjoyed).

- Save the units that are about analysis (2 units on Beowulf; 1 unit on Sir Gawain; 1 unit on poetry), until later when you're actually doing those works, so you're not "spoiling" LotR with analysis. ;)

 

 

Most of all, ENJOY LLftLotR! It was an all-time high water mark for us in our homeschooling, and highly encourage you to adapt the program to make it work for you! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Lori D.

[swimmermom3]

Paula, I am trying to be really good and stay off of here. Hopefully, you are not in a hurry to order anything. I have a couple of thoughts for you to consider and will write after school. Your snowball has migrated to the West Coast and is threatening to roll me flat.:D

[elegantlion]

Totally understand where you're coming from Heather, and we had read LOTR three times over the years as a family prior to doing LLftLotR. :) And while I agree with what you are saying about the analyzing, the actual LLftLotR study is one of the rare programs can actually be a fantastic addition to enjoying the books, rather than sucking the life out of them.

 

Here's out to accentuate that:

- Skip the fill-in-the-blank comprehension questions, vocabulary worksheets and quizzes.

- Skip the writing assignments.

- Read the books aloud together at night as a family and just ENJOY.

- Then, the next day as part of your school day, read the fantastic chapter notes that go with the chapter you read. Choose to do, or not do, the discussion questions -- but esp. the chapter notes will add so much more to look for and look forward to as you read through the books.

- Do the 12 units of tangential material as you want, in whatever order you want. For example, we were also reading ancients that year, and so we read the unit on the 11 Conventions of an Epic first, and it allowed us to look for those conventions in BOTH LotR AND Gilgamesh, Iliad, Odyssey, etc. We thoroughly enjoyed those 12 units and did not think of them as "work" or "school" (again, we skipped the writing assignments and any fill-in-the-blank stuff in the units -- just read and enjoyed).

- Save the units that are about analysis (2 units on Beowulf; 1 unit on Sir Gawain; 1 unit on poetry), until later when you're actually doing those works, so you're not "spoiling" LotR with analysis. ;)

 

 

Most of all, ENJOY LLftLotR! It was an all-time high water mark for us in our homeschooling, and highly encourage you to adapt the program to make it work for you! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Thank you. I've read how it's been modified before. I'm filing this away.

 

Paula, I am trying to be really good and stay off of here. Hopefully, you are not in a hurry to order anything. I have a couple of thoughts for you to consider and will write after school. Your snowball has migrated to the West Coast and is threatening to roll me flat.:D

 

No hurry here. I'm at my new house, ds and the school stuff is still at my parents and dh is working out of town. So how do I spend my alone time? Researching stuff for next year. :lol::lol:

[Capt_Uhura]

So if we should skip all the fill in the blanks, I can ignore the fact that the 2nd edition has errors in the page numbers for the fill in the blanks?

 

Thanks Lori D! Pulling out LLfLOTR since we're in Ancients and just did Gilgamesh!

[swimmermom3]

Which would you study first? I'm looking ahead to next year already and trying to line up my lit program for 8th.

 

I'd like to do the Duke TIP program on King Arthur and read through LotR. I'm considering using LL Lotr which I know includes a unit on Arthurian legends, but I'm trying to line up an option in case I decide NOT to use it. I considering this study for LOTR, I like free. :D

 

We read Green's version of King Arthur last year so he's familiar with the story. We've also watched all the LoTR movies so he's been introduced to Middle Earth. We're not even doing Middle Ages for history, we'll be into Early Modern times so the lit program will stand on its own.

 

It seems to me that it would be better to study King Arthur then move to LotR, but LL LOTR has the Arthurian unit as one of the last units. :confused:

 

WWYD?

 

I am taking the wimpy way out and telling you to "Choose the order that is most comfortable for you." You have been waiting all day for that brilliant advice, haven't you?:D

 

I have and am currently using both LL LOTR and the Duke King Arthur study. I own a used copy of the first edition student book for LL LOTR and a new teacher's binder, and a new copy of the Duke study. If I were to do the ordering again, I would buy only the student book for LL LOTR and the Duke study if I could get it used.

 

Totally understand where you're coming from Heather, and we had read LOTR three times over the years as a family prior to doing LLftLotR. :) And while I agree with what you are saying about the analyzing, the actual LLftLotR study is one of the rare programs can actually be a fantastic addition to enjoying the books, rather than sucking the life out of them.

 

Here's out to accentuate that:

- Skip the fill-in-the-blank comprehension questions, vocabulary worksheets and quizzes.

- Skip the writing assignments.

- Read the books aloud together at night as a family and just ENJOY.

- Then, the next day as part of your school day, read the fantastic chapter notes that go with the chapter you read. Choose to do, or not do, the discussion questions -- but esp. the chapter notes will add so much more to look for and look forward to as you read through the books.

- Do the 12 units of tangential material as you want, in whatever order you want. For example, we were also reading ancients that year, and so we read the unit on the 11 Conventions of an Epic first, and it allowed us to look for those conventions in BOTH LotR AND Gilgamesh, Iliad, Odyssey, etc. We thoroughly enjoyed those 12 units and did not think of them as "work" or "school" (again, we skipped the writing assignments and any fill-in-the-blank stuff in the units -- just read and enjoyed).

- Save the units that are about analysis (2 units on Beowulf; 1 unit on Sir Gawain; 1 unit on poetry), until later when you're actually doing those works, so you're not "spoiling" LotR with analysis. ;)

 

 

The reason I would only order the student book is that like Lori D., we don't do the vocabulary, quizzes, or fill-in the blank worksheets. We have more than we can handle with MCT vocabulary and Swimmer Dude despises fill-in-the-blank worksheets with a passion. He'd rather write an essay answer or clean his room.:tongue_smilie: I have used LL LOTR in one year, but I much prefer the way we are doing it now which is spread out just over two years. I have written before that again , like Lori D., we use the units out of order. At the end of 6th grade, we began LL LOTR with the epic unit to coincide with our study of ancient history and our literature studies of Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey and the Aeneid.

 

This year, when we began our medieval history studies, we reviewed the Exploring Epics unit (5). The unit is enough for a middle schooler and it was a good introduction for my senior who has never covered epics as a genre. I think I shared with you previously the booklet my youngest made regarding epic, translations and epic conventions.

 

This year for 7th grade so far, we have covered Units 6A &B and 7A & B for Old English and Beowulf. Swimmer Dude read Nye's retelling of Beowulf, while dd read Heaney's translation. We listened to Seamus Heaney reading his translation and my kids loved it. Be sure that you talk about Anglo-Saxon riddles at the same time if you haven't already covered it. I think your son would really enjoy them. Of course, Beowulf extends nicely out of the epic unit.

 

About the same time that we read Beowulf, ds read Black Horses for the King to read a tale about King Arthur that is set in the historical context instead of the literary context, if that makes sense. At that point, we started reading Once and Future King as a read aloud. The Dude is not a reader when it comes to fiction, but he loves this book. I think it is the humor and the irony.

 

:tongue_smilie:Probably better start another post because this is too long.

[elegantlion]

I am taking the wimpy way out and telling you to "Choose the order that is most comfortable for you." You have been waiting all day for that brilliant advice, haven't you?:D I can now breathe. ;)

 

I have and am currently using both LL LOTR and the Duke King Arthur study. I own a used copy of the first edition student book for LL LOTR and a new teacher's binder, and a new copy of the Duke study. If I were to do the ordering again, I would buy only the student book for LL LOTR and the Duke study if I could get it used.

 

If you just buy the student book for LL LOTR, what will you miss in the teachers? The first edition had all the units in the teacher's book , correct? Now with the second edition they are in the student book, is that right?

 

The reason I would only order the student book is that like Lori D., we don't do the vocabulary, quizzes, or fill-in the blank worksheets. We have more than we can handle with MCT vocabulary and Swimmer Dude despises fill-in-the-blank worksheets with a passion. He'd rather write an essay answer or clean his room.:tongue_smilie: I have used LL LOTR in one year, but I much prefer the way we are doing it now which is spread out just over two years. I have written before that again , like Lori D., we use the units out of order. At the end of 6th grade, we began LL LOTR with the epic unit to coincide with our study of ancient history and our literature studies of Gilgamesh, The Iliad, The Odyssey and the Aeneid.

We would probably skip them or do some of the orally. As far as the units, we would do those out of sequence too.

 

 

 

 

Money is always part of the issue. Previously I was going to buy a teacher's edition and call it good, I already own the books. But with the revised edition I didn't know if I would need both books and a different copy of LotR.

[Capt_Uhura]

Does LLfoLOTR mention Gilgamesh as an epic?

[swimmermom3]

Money is always part of the issue. Previously I was going to buy a teacher's edition and call it good, I already own the books. But with the revised edition I didn't know if I would need both books and a different copy of LotR.

 

Ugh! I just checked the Amazon prices and even for the first edition there are no breaks. Because I use primarily the literary lessons part and not all the worksheets, my lovely, expensive, virgin teacher's binder remains untouched. I am not sure how the second edition works. In the first edition, the teacher's pages have all the answers filled in so if you wanted to do the worksheets, owning only the teacher's edition would be problematic.

 

I am trying to write this between teaching exercises and realize it is quickly becoming incoherent. I will pull our LL LOTR outline from my files and put in the changes we recently made and send it to you.

 

About Duke's King Arthur unit, it is for history and not literature. IMO, the book is too rich literary-wise to address it only from the historical perspective. LL LOTR's Unit 8 is Exploring Genre: Fantasy as an ARt Form. This works well with Once and Future King but it is the weakest unit and could use some supplementing. The projects in the Duke study are clever, but a lot of them you could come up with on your own such as illuminating letters or building a model castle. I have used the section on annotation but had the Dude apply it to short stories not White's text. Although both of us do mark items and unknown terms for us to research after our reading. You could do some wonderful nature study work especially on birds for this book. We also use the Scholar's TCQC Short Answer method and rubric to answer one or two questions every one to two weeks. The main part of the Duke study is 100+ questions to be answered. It has turned out to just not be our thing here.

 

Bottom line: spend the money on a literary guide for the book, look up how to annotate and how to do the TCQC answers on line, and create your own projects to extend the enjoyment of Once and Future King. Be sure to at least read a retelling of Macbeth before you read the book so you son is familiar with the dialogue and can identify it in OFK.

 

You could certainly do the four books in one year, but Paula, there are so many delightful rabbit trails and we have so much fun meandering...are you sure this couldn't be for 8th and 9th grade?

[elegantlion]

You could certainly do the four books in one year, but Paula, there are so many delightful rabbit trails and we have so much fun meandering...are you sure this couldn't be for 8th and 9th grade?

 

Thank you, Lisa. I will probably end going with LL Lotr and tweaking. If is were up to me we'd spend the remainder of his schooling years studying ancient and middle Ages history and literature. He does not share my passion for such studies, he'll probably enjoy the sci-fi lit study I have planned for later.

 

I've been reading The Aeneid, out loud to myself, as I wander our new home that is mostly empty of furniture. It has a lovely echo, but some books just need to be read aloud.

[Capt_Uhura]

The 2nd edition teacher's manual has only the answers. It is about half the size of the first edition. It is not a reproduction of the student manual. For instance, none of the instructional text on Epics is in the teacher's manual. It is only in the student manual.

[Capt_Uhura]

I think I"ve looked this up before but I can't remember....what is TCQC?

[elegantlion]

The 2nd edition teacher's manual has only the answers. It is about half the size of the first edition. It is not a reproduction of the student manual. For instance, none of the instructional text on Epics is in the teacher's manual. It is only in the student manual.

 

UGH! I really like have the complete student text. If I were mostly interested in the unit studies could I get by with just the student text? Off again to look at the samples online.

[Capt_Uhura]

I'll look tonight when I have time. DH just blind-sided me w/ having surgery on Tuesday on his back so I'm scheduling bloodwork and EKGs. My off-the-cuff guess would be you only need the student book.

 

Several of us are upset b/c the new 2nd edition didn't match the page numbers of the book that ships with it. It isn't all of it but some of it in the middle. But if we are skipping the fill in the blank stuff, it doesn't matter.

 

But, I'll try to read through it later.

[elegantlion]

I'll look tonight when I have time. DH just blind-sided me w/ having surgery on Tuesday on his back so I'm scheduling bloodwork and EKGs. My off-the-cuff guess would be you only need the student book.

 

Several of us are upset b/c the new 2nd edition didn't match the page numbers of the book that ships with it. It isn't all of it but some of it in the middle. But if we are skipping the fill in the blank stuff, it doesn't matter.

 

But, I'll try to read through it later.

 

Oh, please no rush!! Take care of your dh, I hope his surgery goes smoothly. I've been reading about your frustration with the page numbers as well. I hope that gets resolved.

[Capt_Uhura]

I looked at the Epic Unit last night. You could do it w/out the teacher's book. All the material is in the student book. The teacher's manual only has (ouch) the ans (ouch)wer to the questions (ouch) in the (ouch) student manual. Although it might be nice to have the answer to the discussion questions. If there was an answer you were unsure of, you could always PM me.

 

If you're wondering about the ouch's, I cut the tip of my left ring finger while peeling potatoes so typing is quite painful for those s's :glare: I keep opening it up during the day and finding blood around the house. Double :glare:

[swimmermom3]

UGH! I really like have the complete student text. If I were mostly interested in the unit studies could I get by with just the student text? Off again to look at the samples online.

 

Paula, from what Capt. Uhura is saying about the second edition, it looks as though you should be fine with only the student edition. We will have finished most of the unit studies by the time we start the actual LOTR books mid-eighth grade. At that point, we will use the chapter notes and any information that I skipped in the unit studies because it pertained only to Tolkien. If you have the student copy, you can still utilize comprehension questions if you want to. I plan to work primarily with the questions that pertain to literary devices, not content.

 

I wish there was a similar study for Once and Future King at least a copy of the book that was similar to the Oxford Shakespeare School books where the unfamiliar terms are on the left-hand page as O&FK has many relatively obscure references.

[swimmermom3]

I'll look tonight when I have time. DH just blind-sided me w/ having surgery on Tuesday on his back so I'm scheduling bloodwork and EKGs. My off-the-cuff guess would be you only need the student book.

 

Several of us are upset b/c the new 2nd edition didn't match the page numbers of the book that ships with it. It isn't all of it but some of it in the middle. But if we are skipping the fill in the blank stuff, it doesn't matter.

 

But, I'll try to read through it later.

 

Capt. Uhura, keeping you and yours in my thoughts for a speedy recovery.:grouphug:

[Capt_Uhura]

OT -

 

Thanks Swimmermom. I really appreciate it. Dh has never had surgery, never had anesthesia even. He has a herniated disc in his back which is causing foot numbness and weakness in his calf and hamstring so we all just hope the surgery restores the nerve to full function and relieves the pain. And he's the chef usually for Christmas so his twin, who is a professional chef, will be cooking dinner instead of sous chef for DH. So at least I have that covered! :001_smile:

[elegantlion]

I looked at the Epic Unit last night. You could do it w/out the teacher's book. All the material is in the student book. The teacher's manual only has (ouch) the ans (ouch)wer to the questions (ouch) in the (ouch) student manual. Although it might be nice to have the answer to the discussion questions. If there was an answer you were unsure of, you could always PM me.

 

If you're wondering about the ouch's, I cut the tip of my left ring finger while peeling potatoes so typing is quite painful for those s's :glare: I keep opening it up during the day and finding blood around the house. Double :glare:

 

Oh my. May you heal quickly! Thank you, you've saved me some grief and even more money.

 

Paula, from what Capt. Uhura is saying about the second edition, it looks as though you should be fine with only the student edition. We will have finished most of the unit studies by the time we start the actual LOTR books mid-eighth grade. At that point, we will use the chapter notes and any information that I skipped in the unit studies because it pertained only to Tolkien. If you have the student copy, you can still utilize comprehension questions if you want to. I plan to work primarily with the questions that pertain to literary devices, not content.

 

I wish there was a similar study for Once and Future King at least a copy of the book that was similar to the Oxford Shakespeare School books where the unfamiliar terms are on the left-hand page as O&FK has many relatively obscure references.

 

I love the Oxford Shakespeare books. Paperback swap had a few of them listed last time I checked.

[swimmermom3]

 

 

I love the Oxford Shakespeare books. Paperback swap had a few of them listed last time I checked.

 

They have fewer copies than they did before.:D