A short talk with a Chinese exchange student

[Punchie]

Well, I know that we are desperately trying to get American students into our graduate physics program - alas, most domestic applicants are not as qualified as the foreigners who apply.

 

Can I ask what state this school is in? DH is picking away at his BS in Physics (taking a break as he just landed the job he was hoping to get sev yrs ago).

[Laura in CA]

I still think somewhat of a mix of the two systems (and probably others) would be ideal, but I do note one big thing this student loved was the freedom here (school freedom to pick and choose courses based on likes/dislikes/goals).

 

My sister-in-law grew up in China and is currently writing a book about that (quite different) experience. She has a lot of great insights into the good & bad of the Chinese educational system. She was born the year they started the one-child policy (1979 or so). She noticed that there are a lot of memoirs by Chinese people who came of age during the Cultural Revolution, but none covering the more recent period.

 

Anyway, one thing she is bitter about (and jealous of my boys) is the freedom to pursue one's interests and passions. For example, at an early age she was chosen to study law, and was given absolutely no opportunity to study calculus, even though she enjoyed math and was one of the top math students. Now as a 32-year-old living in LA, she is discovering a consuming passion for creating art.

 

About the difference in classrooms: we had some friends from France who returned to France because kids there show more respect for teachers. They couldn't stand the classrooms here. And I'll share some NYT articles that made a deep impression on me (apologies if they've been shared already; I haven't read the whole thread):

 

Indian teachers hired in CT

 

excerpt: In India, Ms. Tallur was revered. When she entered her classroom, 70 students would rise, stand by their desks, and greet her in unison. “In India a teacher is next to God,” she explained, noting the contrast in behavior.

 

Now after a year of teaching at Harding [High School] in an international program, Ms. Tallur has become used to less respect. She is no longer surprised by profanity in the hallways and students talking out of turn in the classroom.

 

Oh, I can't find the other article. It ran a few months ago and profiled quite a few of the growing number of Chinese *undergraduates* at U.S. universities and their adjustment to the quite different lifestyle of the typical American student. Some of the Chinese students profiled have moved off-campus and live together in apartments to avoid the drinking scene and cook their own food, and devote more time to their studies. I guess they've made their own compromise (as do U.S. students, of course) -- combining the freedom to choose their own courses with the more studious lifestyle they prefer.

[MBM]

About the difference in classrooms: we had some friends from France who returned to France because kids there show more respect for teachers. They couldn't stand the classrooms here. And I'll share some NYT articles that made a deep impression on me (apologies if they've been shared already; I haven't read the whole thread):

 

Indian teachers hired in CT

 

excerpt: In India, Ms. Tallur was revered. When she entered her classroom, 70 students would rise, stand by their desks, and greet her in unison. “In India a teacher is next to God,†she explained, noting the contrast in behavior.

 

Now after a year of teaching at Harding [High School] in an international program, Ms. Tallur has become used to less respect. She is no longer surprised by profanity in the hallways and students talking out of turn in the classroom.

 

Exactly why I did not become a teacher. It is a joy to teach students who are at least willing to learn, but the disrepect I've encountered is something else. It's not just students who are disrespectful, either -- sometimes parents are as well.

[Capt_Uhura]

And do some areas of China exclude many students test scores? Does it vary by region? In the US, I believe this has been an issue in comparing test scores between schools and between states. My understanding is also that this is the reason why NCLB requires that ALL kids test scores get reported. If China is going the route of excluding kids who aren't doing well (learning disabilities etc) while the US is going toward putting all student scores into the average, it would make perfect sense that some areas of China might score quite a bit higher than the US.

 

 

I've seen this criticism before in various places. I've seen a few number crunching studies that looked at only the best and brightest US students. Those students scored about as well as China's "average" students and well below China's best and brightest. I don't have any articles to point you to. I have read the book someone posted about above and perhaps it was in there.

[creekland]

My sister-in-law grew up in China and is currently writing a book about that (quite different) experience. She has a lot of great insights into the good & bad of the Chinese educational system. She was born the year they started the one-child policy (1979 or so). She noticed that there are a lot of memoirs by Chinese people who came of age during the Cultural Revolution, but none covering the more recent period.

 

Anyway, one thing she is bitter about (and jealous of my boys) is the freedom to pursue one's interests and passions. For example, at an early age she was chosen to study law, and was given absolutely no opportunity to study calculus, even though she enjoyed math and was one of the top math students. Now as a 32-year-old living in LA, she is discovering a consuming passion for creating art.

 

About the difference in classrooms: we had some friends from France who returned to France because kids there show more respect for teachers. They couldn't stand the classrooms here. And I'll share some NYT articles that made a deep impression on me (apologies if they've been shared already; I haven't read the whole thread):

 

Indian teachers hired in CT

 

excerpt: In India, Ms. Tallur was revered. When she entered her classroom, 70 students would rise, stand by their desks, and greet her in unison. “In India a teacher is next to God,†she explained, noting the contrast in behavior.

 

Now after a year of teaching at Harding [High School] in an international program, Ms. Tallur has become used to less respect. She is no longer surprised by profanity in the hallways and students talking out of turn in the classroom.

 

Oh, I can't find the other article. It ran a few months ago and profiled quite a few of the growing number of Chinese *undergraduates* at U.S. universities and their adjustment to the quite different lifestyle of the typical American student. Some of the Chinese students profiled have moved off-campus and live together in apartments to avoid the drinking scene and cook their own food, and devote more time to their studies. I guess they've made their own compromise (as do U.S. students, of course) -- combining the freedom to choose their own courses with the more studious lifestyle they prefer.

 

Thanks for this info. It was interesting to read about. I really WISH teachers had more respect here, but I doubt it will ever happen.

 

I've given some very serious thought to hosting our own Asian exchange student in a couple of years when my middle son leaves for college. I think my youngest would love an academic companion and the "friendly competition" academically would be as good for him as the companionship. We'll have to see if our economics improve. Hopefully they will. We hosted a German exchange student a few moons ago, but my boys were young then. Overall we enjoyed the experience. Hosting an Asian student could give us a really interesting insight.

[laughing lioness]

If we assume that there are no underlying genetic differences making the Asian kids more intelligent, the conclusion must be that the reasons are cultural ( things like family structure, and work ethic will play a role).

 

QUOTE]

Not P.C. but The Bell Curve and other research clearly shows that there are I.Q. diffs between ethnic groups, with Asians being on top of the heap.

Edited December 14, 2010 by laughing lioness

[Julie in MN]

Not P.C. but The Bell Curve and other research clearly shows that there are I.Q. diffs between ethnic groups, with Asians being on top of the heap.

 

The Chinese kids I work with tell me that they always get comments, "Oh, Asians are naturally so smart," and they feel that discounts the labor they put in. The culture tends to be very tight-knit, so kids don't socialize after school all that much. They are expected to study and many are tutored (which is where I work, and our center assigns its own homework 365 days a year) and go to Saturday classes. I have also heard Asian parents say that their work as parents becomes much more demanding once the children reach school age, whereas many non-Asian USA families tend to think their job gets easier at that point.

 

I know IQ tests are supposed to be non-academic, but I just wonder.

Julie

[jld]

It's just anecdotal, but . . . one of the Indian kids (13 years old) in the complex came over at 9:30 last night to get some help in French. He asked earlier in the day if we had some French textbooks he could use to get extra practice.

 

Otoh, ds says he never comes out to play anymore . . .

[skreader]

I'm from the USA but have lived in Hong Kong for the past 18 years and work in a university here.

 

Chinese culture has for centuries placed a huge emphasis on education as a means of success in life. There have been examination systems to enter the civil service (and thus government power, wealth, and status) for the past 2,000 years. Examinations still form the "backbone" of the Chinese and Hong Kong education, although there are changes in Hong Kong - recently we did away with the HKCEE which was given at the end of Form 5 (~ 16 years old) which then would give kids with good marks admission to Form 6 and Form 7 where they would study for the Hong Kong A-levels to get into university. When I first came to Hong Kong, only about 15% of the university aged students went to university. Now it's approaching 30% (I think).

 

Competitive exams are covered in the newspaper like sports scores in the USA. The kids who get 10 A's or more have their pictures in the newspapers and stories written on them:

 

Examples:

A-list just a stepping stone for Fab 16

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=101380&sid=29148040&con_type=1&d_str=20100805&sear_year=2010

 

Exam hopefuls out to beat adversity

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=4&art_id=101257&sid=29118428&con_type=1&d_str=20100803&fc=2

Then, after the results, the kids with lower marks scramble for places in F6.

 

Heat on in search for fast dwindling school places

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=4&art_id=101428&sid=29167131&con_type=1&d_str=20100806&fc=7

Then, A-levels, where also kids w/ the good grades are held up for community esteem.

 

There are also fewer places in the university than students who take the A-levels.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=15&art_id=99537&sid=28649944&con_type=1&d_str=20100621&sear_year=2010

 

In the meantime, kids who do poorly suffer from depression and a feeling that life is not worthwhile. There are suicides sometimes among youth who have poor grades and fear their parents anger, or fear disappointing them.

 

Cram schools advertise on the backs of buses and in huge posters on the MTR (the subway system, like the El in Chicago, or the T in Boston)

 

There's a wonderful book (about 10 years old) by Kangmin Zeng, it is called "Dragon Gate: Competitive Examinations and their Consequences". He researched and wrote about the examination systems and cultures in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

 

Another interesting book is "The Chinese Learner: cultural, psychological and contextual influences" - edited by David A. Watson & John B. Biggs. I read it many years ago, but one of the things I came away with was that Chinese parents and students both attributed academic success to hard work rather than "talent" or "brains".

 

Parents, even if uneducated or under-educated themselves really really value their children's education and make sacrifices for it. This goes back to a famous story about Mengzi's (Mencius's) mother who moved three times for her son's education (or to avoid bad influences). It is still a famous idiom in Chinese culture.

 

"孟母三迁" (mèng mǔ sān qiān)

 

Thanks for reading if you made it this far. :)

Edited December 15, 2010 by skreader

[creekland]

 

Competitive exams are covered in the newspaper like sports scores in the USA. The kids who get 10 A's or more have their pictures in the newspapers and stories written on them:

 

 

I wish we could have something similar to this. Instead, sports rule and our Chess Team doesn't even get the most minor of coverage.

 

Then too, there's talk of colleges and universities giving up merit aid, but few talk about giving up athletic scholarships. (Granted, some schools give out neither, but still...)

 

I don't want our society to put on so much pressure that kids are depressed and suicidal, but it sure would be nice if the "academic nerds" were as respected as the sports stars.

 

I'm in the camp that believes the Asian kids generally work for their success. We don't have many, and some are immigrants so are still processing the language more than harder subjects, but they are always pleasant to work with and they work. The vast majority of our native kids want to know how little they can do to get by.

[flyingiguana]

I don't know anything about education in China itself - but I know that there is a achievement gap between Asian and white students in the US which can not be blamed on different schools or bias in selecting students to be compared.

(I quickly looked up one set of data from CA; there are plenty other stats which I don't have time to dig up):

http://www.cde.ca.gov/eo/in/se/agfactsheet.asp

 

On average, the Asian students outperform the white students, both in socio-economic disanvantaged and not disadvantaged groups.

 

If we assume that there are no underlying genetic differences making the Asian kids more intelligent, the conclusion must be that the reasons are cultural ( things like family structure, and work ethic will play a role).

 

Comparisons between Asian and white students IN the US should eliminate the things you criticized about the movie.

 

This would only be a useful comparison if we could be sure that Chinese immigrants to the US were a random sample. They might not be. It could be that those who came to the US were either culturally or genetically smarter or more motivated.

 

Although my guess is that comparing test scores between countries is a misleading and pointless exercise. Even if the test given is exactly the same, there are so many variables in how the test is administered (including whether the teachers saw the test beforehand and taught to the test) that the results aren't going to mean anything.

 

I also don't think we can answer the question about whether differences between groups are cultural or genetic. Although there does seem to be evidence that IQ is heritable (I believe I've seen a couple studies claiming that adopted children, as adults, have IQ scores more similar to that of their biological parents), we have no way of knowing if this is a genetic difference or not. The 9 month prenatal environment may be what's most important for predicting adult IQ, and parents of lower intelligence may tend to replicate a less favorable environment for their unborn child.

 

And then there's the issue of whether an IQ test, or any test, really measures what we think it measures -- what is "intelligence" anyway? And is it something to aspire to? Is "reasonably bright" better than genius? For the individual or for society? These are questions that I'm not sure we really have the answers to.

[laughing lioness]

My dh wrote his dissertation on intelligence and The Raven Progressive Test Matrixes (an I.Q. test that does is not reliant on English language skills).

He said much of the same things that have already been mentioned. Ethnic groups with high I.Q. honor and respect academic success. It is difficult to determine if the I.Q. is a result of the culture or the ethnicity.

 

I could see whay the Asian kids are frustrated when their "intelligence" is assumed rather than their being given kudos for working hard. My dh went to Purdue for a year and I worked at Pizza Hut. Most of my co-workers were brilliant techno-head drop outs who played D&D all day because they didn't see the value of jumping through the establishments hoops.

I'm sure all of us know plenty of smart people that are stymied in life and plenty of "average" people doing amazing things (Gladwell had some great examples in Outliers).

His other point seconded flyiguanas: What is intelligence? How is it determined, who defines it?

Which is part of the discussion in some of the other threads: Race to Nowhere and Holisitic homeschooling.

[Sahamamama]

I'm not going to say some students are not rude...but i also wonder if asking direct questions, or engaging in discussion can be interpreted as rudeness by students unfamiliar with that sort of teacher/student exchange/relationsip.

 

I am assuming that a Chinese exchange student is probably in 'AP' classes, where, at least here in MA, you would find the most serious, most dedicated students who do not want to anger their teachers.

 

If one is from a culture where the teachers talk and the students listen/take notes, a less hierarchical/dogmatic exchange might seem rude.

 

:iagree:I remember back when I was in graduate school, a professor and I were discussing something in class. The discussion got a bit heated, but I knew the professor, and I knew he was loving it! :D The topic -- Old Testament prophets -- was his passion. He was actually enjoying having a back-and-forth, I-don't-agree-with-you-just-because-you're-the-professor type of "argument."

 

After class, I went into the student lounge to read a bit. I sat down next to a friend of mine, a Native American (Lakota) woman. She GOT UP AND MOVED. :001_huh: She was livid, so angry with me that she could barely speak. She was so angry because how dare I talk back to a professor in that way?

I suggested that we walk down to the professor's office and discuss it with him. We did, and she was appalled that HE said, "Oh, that was the best conversation I've had in a class in years!" And then HE apologized to ME, saying he thought he cut me off at the end because his temper flared up.

 

My Lakota friend was then in a real quandary. How could she remain upset with me, and not feel the same way about the professor who allowed the "argument?" OTOH, she could not (culturally) be upset with her teacher.

 

In the end, she acknowledged the enormous cultural differences in how a student is supposed to relate to a teacher (and vice versa). ;)

[rlugbill]

Just in case this thread hasn't gone on long enough, I'll add my 2 pennies.

 

I taught English in Taiwan for a year. And my dd's best friends here are Chinese-American. My dd is very involved in music, which seems to attract lots of Chinese children.

 

So, I know a little about the Chinese culture and education. The Chinese value education very highly. They have a national holiday in Taiwan called Teacher's Day. It is Confucius' birthday. Confucius was a teacher.

 

"Teacher" is a title of respect, sort of like "doctor" or "professor".

 

When I taught English in Taiwan, I assumed (wrongly) many things. For example, I assumed that my students came from wealthy families to be able to afford extra after-school classes for their children.

 

I was amazed to learn that while some of the parents were doctors or engineers, most were middle class factory workers or truck drivers. These families mostly did without cars or vacations, yet spent the extra money to send their children to after-school private English classes. They believe this extra education is important to help their children get into college and succeed.

 

I also assumed that parents would complain if they felt their child wasn't treated right. I had to move a girl in class because she was talking to the girl next to her (a rare occurrence there). The girl cried because she felt ashamed when she got in trouble. I thought the mother would come and complain to the school, based upon my experience teaching in the U.S. But the Chinese teacher explained to me that Chinese parents would never do that. They support the teacher and respect the teacher.

 

The children were very well-behaved. They never fought. They never even argued with each other. There were very few behavior problems there. No disrespect. Teachers don't have to waste time with classroom management like in the U.S.

 

The teaching techniques were also different. They didn't do all the small group work that American teachers do. Mostly individual work or whole class presentations. Partner work isn't foreign to them, so I tried to do a lot of that just to vary it up a bit. Their teaching techniques were very traditional Chinese and not like the American schools of education teach.

 

No one tried to be the class clown or tried to stand out in class. They feel more comfortable being part of the group. As a matter of fact, to punish a child, they will sometimes have him stand up while everyone else is sitting down. That is embarrassing for the child apparently

 

And there is an emphasis on apologizing. If you bump someone on the street, they will apologize for being in your way. If you went and tackled them, they would probably still apologize.

 

And they never get angry. It is a faux pas to get angry in Chinese culture. Only small children lose their temper in that sort of way. They will look at you like a crazy foreigner if you ever get angry about anything. Even if someone just took all your money and stomped on the Bible, and spit on your mother, you don't get angry.

 

Anyway, in Chinese culture, it would be shameful to the family if a child doesn't succeed and the child feels that. They want to succeed, not so much to make big bucks, but so that they fulfill their duty to their family. Meanwhile, the family helps the child to succeed and encourages them in their education.

 

Likewise, children do not feel the lure to test the boundaries (smoking, drinking, drugs, etc.) and risk getting in trouble. That would bring shame to them and their families. So, the crazy things teens do here do not happen as much with Chinese young people.

 

Education is paramount. The school social life we have here doesn't exist there. There are no school dances, football games, pep rallies, cheerleaders, etc. School is about learning and education, not hanging out with your friends and socializing and drama and dating, etc.

 

I think it's interesting that Chinese-Americans do not homeschool very much. If they did, I think they would be even more successful. They are often held back in American schools and could do much better if they were taught by their parents and could progress at their own rates instead of having to be held back by the American kids who don't study or care about school. But I think there is so much respect for teachers that the Chinese want their children to learn from teachers.

 

Also, there is some anti-Chinese sentiment in American schools. My dd's friend got teased at school because she is Chinese-American. She is sort of ashamed of her heritage, but there is no hiding it. She is conflicted between her family and the culture she encounters in school with the other children.

[Charles Wallace]

Teenagers hardly acknowledge adults anymore, let alone act with respect.

 

 

Teachers have increasingly little power to enforce anything like polite behavior. Increasingly, they are not supported by administrators or parents. If students do act rudely, the presumption is that it's the teacher's fault for making them do it.

[creekland]

Teachers have increasingly little power to enforce anything like polite behavior. Increasingly, they are not supported by administrators or parents. If students do act rudely, the presumption is that it's the teacher's fault for making them do it.

 

In one parent teacher conference not all that long ago (couple years) a teacher was telling a high school parent that, "Johnny tends to talk loudly off topic throughout class." Parent then told the teacher, "Well, if you wouldn't be so boring, he might not do that."

 

Johnny was bragging about it the next day in my class. The teacher confirmed his story to me. Johnny talks loudly off topic in EVERY CLASS. I guess we're all just too boring for him and it's our fault.

[Capt_Uhura]

NOt much to say about that except :svengo:

[flyingiguana]

The children were very well-behaved. They never fought. They never even argued with each other. There were very few behavior problems there. No disrespect. Teachers don't have to waste time with classroom management like in the U.S.

 

 

In our brief experience with school, classroom management seemed to be about the only thing teachers spent time on. If they skipped that to try to teach something, no one could concentrate on the lesson if they'd even wanted to.

 

Does it all come down to our culture? But is it only a minority in our culture who behave this way and make it impossible for anyone else to get anything done in school?

 

If it's only a small subset of the population in the US that's causing the trouble, why is that subset not in the Chinese classrooms? Do they not exist in Chinese society? Do the Chinese classrooms (or families) deal better with it? Or are these kids removed from the classroom in one way or another?

 

When I was in school, the discipline and disruption problems were really pretty minimal. Somehow, that school I was in had avoided these difficulties that I see so much more today. Although, it could be only that I went to school in a homogeneous suburban school, but now I've moved and the schools I see tend to be inner city schools with kids with all sorts of challenging issues. It might also be that as a kid I was benefiting from "tracking". Maybe the disruptive kids had all been sequestered off in another room.

 

But the Chinese don't, as far as we've heard, sequester the disruptive kids. They claim to just not have them. So is it true? Or is just a claim? I'm a little bit skeptical about the news that comes out of China. I think there is a lot of whitewashing going on. While in the US, the news media is more interested in coming up with juicy scandal. About the best evidence we can get is anecdotal evidence from people who have taught in China. But are those randomly selected data points? Or do foreign teachers tend to end up at the schools who have a good handle on their discipline problems?

[Capt_Uhura]

My friend, an American, had her kids in Japanese schools from preK. She wanted the full immersion experience for them rather than the military base school. From preK, the kids are instructed in behavior required in the classroom. The teacher will regularly leave 5yrs old alone for an hour and the kids keep working. They never even notice the teacher is not there. If one kid starts to get out of the norm, the peers correct the student. I think it is just difference in culture and the desire not to shame the family or embarrass the parents. The kids also get regular exercise throughout the day which helps to dispel energy. As I read in an article, it's about being the same and not standing out.

[Julie in MN]

In one parent teacher conference not all that long ago (couple years) a teacher was telling a high school parent that, "Johnny tends to talk loudly off topic throughout class." Parent then told the teacher, "Well, if you wouldn't be so boring, he might not do that."

 

Johnny was bragging about it the next day in my class. The teacher confirmed his story to me. Johnny talks loudly off topic in EVERY CLASS. I guess we're all just too boring for him and it's our fault.

 

That is so sad... and so true.

 

One problem is that the teacher has no power to enforce any effort at discipline. What can she do? She can't tell the student to leave. Every student must be accepted at that school, with very few limitations. The administration cannot hold 50% of the school population in the office every day. The whole school will be rated poorly if all of the students don't test to at least the low bar that the school tries to reach...

 

Julie

[regentrude]

Does it all come down to our culture? But is it only a minority in our culture who behave this way and make it impossible for anyone else to get anything done in school?

If it's only a small subset of the population in the US that's causing the trouble, why is that subset not in the Chinese classrooms? Do they not exist in Chinese society? Do the Chinese classrooms (or families) deal better with it?

 

I think one main cultural difference is the status of the teacher in society. If the teacher is a respected authority figure who is to be obeyed, and parents expect their children to respect the teacher and otherwise impose consequences at home, the children will behave (I am talking about kids who can control their actions, not children with neurological or psychiatric issues)

If, OTOH, the parent considers his child the center of the universe and will go complain to the school as soon as the teacher criticizes or disciplines his precious offspring, he will transmit this attitude to the child, and then the teacher is not respected and will not be able to maintain discipline.

 

Another issue is what role is given to the institution school. In some countries, the purpose of school is to provide academic instruction. Period. In the US, schools are expected to fulfill a multitude of purposes: provide opportunities to play sports and do other extracurricular activities, make up for parental shortcomings, "build character", cushion social inequalities, and somewhere in the long list, provide academic instruction. So school is viewed much differently here than elsewhere - and I think this also influences behavior.

 

Lastly, in the attempt to be inclusive and non-discriminatory, political correctness demands that excuses be made for all kinds of "issues". I think it is beyond the expertise of school personnel to decide whether a child's disruptive behavior is caused by something he can not control - or by a lack of parental discipline. And right now, schools err on the side of caution and rather subject the rest of the students to an intolerable atmosphere than risk a law suit for discriminating agains the child with behavioral issues. I do not know how Chinese schools deal with this issue.

[Laura Corin]

And right now, schools err on the side of caution and rather subject the rest of the students to an intolerable atmosphere than risk a law suit for discriminating against the child with behavioral issues. I do not know how Chinese schools deal with this issue.

 

In a recent UK documentary about a Chinese (Mainland Chinese) school, a little boy who had been nervously shredding his school-issued eraser was put in an old, threadbare sweater as a symbol of his lack of care for property. He was humiliated into tears at the front of the class, as another child read out a condemnation of his character and actions.

 

Western friends who had their children in Chinese schools talked to me about humiliation, hazing and cruelty. These were systemic.

 

There are many things wrong with education in Western schools, but there is also a reason why I home educated my children when we lived in China.

 

Laura

[skreader]

I once taught in a "cram school", after-school English place in a suburb of Taipei. While I taught, they had another teacher (local) patrolling the rows with a big stick. I didn't see him ever *use* it. I stopped working there after a couple of months. But, it was also a very old-fashioned place and over 20 years ago.

 

I

But the Chinese don't, as far as we've heard, sequester the disruptive kids. They claim to just not have them. So is it true? Or is just a claim? I'm a little bit skeptical about the news that comes out of China. I think there is a lot of whitewashing going on. While in the US, the news media is more interested in coming up with juicy scandal. About the best evidence we can get is anecdotal evidence from people who have taught in China. But are those randomly selected data points? Or do foreign teachers tend to end up at the schools who have a good handle on their discipline problems?

 

I think it is very cultural, that at home and in the classroom are expected to listen and do as they are told. I remember visiting my kids' nursery school in Hong Kong before sending my eldest there and watching snack time. The teacher put the snack on a little plate in front of each child and they could not eat it until she said they could. They all waited.

 

That said, there are famous examples when this did not hold true. During the Cultural Revolution, students were encouraged to humiliate those teachers who were less than doctrinely pure, slapping them, spitting on them, even torturing them. Here is a rare example where some of the former red guards have apologized for it.

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20101107_1.htm

 

But attitudes towards conformity/independence discipline/freedom are very cultural. Back in 2003 a documentary maker in HK named Tammy Cheung made a film about 2 secondary schools, in the USA, high schools.

 

I heard that many "westerners" saw this film as a powerful and searing endictment of secondary education in Hong Kong. I heard that many local people thought that it was almost an advertisement for how well disciplined the schools were and that the film-maker favored those two schools too much.

 

A lot of poorer young people in China don't continue school after primary school, or junior middle-school - basically go out to work at 15. If you search the internet on "inequality and education china" you will find a lot.

 

Also, rich kids, or kids w/ connections may be able to get away with working less diligently than those withouut $ or connections.

[Joan in GE]

That said, there are famous examples when this did not hold true. During the Cultural Revolution, students were encouraged to humiliate those teachers who were less than doctrinely pure, slapping them, spitting on them, even torturing them. Here is a rare example where some of the former red guards have apologized for it.

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20101107_1.htm

 

 

This is an interesting article but so poorly written.

 

I had to wonder if it was because it was translated or what. But even then, it goes in circles and doesn't even seem to be organized chronologically. This is not the first time that I've read Chinese papers that are extremely hard to follow. I just asked my husband, who has done a lot of work in China, and he said that it is due to fear, fear of having words that will offend and get yourself thrown into prison. Still, it makes me wonder about logic and writing instruction.

 

Anyway, I am so glad that they are making the effort and apologizing - so important for inner peace.

 

Joan

[skreader]

re: your concerns about the piece's literary quality

 

I think that the fact that it was written in Chinese and translated "on the fly" may have something to do with your concerns. Also, I think it's supposed to be an "atmospheric", human interest story, not a straight forward chronological essay about the Cultural Revolution and its aftermath.

 

The piece starts off "now" (apologies are being made) and then goes back to October, when one letter was published, and then goes back to the summer before; it also describes the background of some of the letter writers (where they are today) and then to the events of 1965-1975. Then it talks about the effects of the "criticism sessions" on those teachers who are now very elderly; efforts at reconciliation afterward. Then it rounds back to the present. Some might find it elegant. But, tastes and literary conventions vary across cultures and languages.