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:iagree:Part of the reason this board is so valuable to me is the diversity of experiences!

 

(Just to be fair- I did love L.A. The winters there were heavenly, we hiked in the San Gabriels and walked on the Santa Monica beach, looked at Octupi at the Leo Carillo tide pools, went to the La Brea tar pits, walked through Old Town Pasadena, ate incredible food, went to rock-out, life changing church services and rubbed elbows with world reknowned leaders. All that being said, I think my teeth were clenched for 6 years due to the noise, crime, pollution, poverty, obscene wealth, etc, etc. And I am SO relieved not be raising kids there. If we had been child-free it would have been so much more enjoyable (but still not incredibly safe- I have soo many more stories to tell :001_smile:).

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:iagree:Part of the reason this board is so valuable to me is the diversity of experiences!

 

(Just to be fair- I did love L.A. The winters there were heavenly, we hiked in the San Gabriels and walked on the Santa Monica beach, looked at Octupi at the Leo Carillo tide pools, went to the La Brea tar pits, walked through Old Town Pasadena, ate incredible food, went to rock-out, life changing church services and rubbed elbows with world reknowned leaders. All that being said, I think my teeth were clenched for 6 years due to the noise, crime, pollution, poverty, obscene wealth, etc, etc. And I am SO relieved not be raising kids there. If we had been child-free it would have been so much more enjoyable (but still not incredibly safe- I have soo many more stories to tell :001_smile:).

 

 

Yep----we HAD to leave Orange County 3 months after dd was born for the SAME EXACT reasons you left!!! Loved the weather---boy did I love it. But there is just so much wrong down there and just too much and too many people. We visit because my husband's entire family lives down there, but I never, ever want to live there again. I will never forget the anxiety the Monday news caused in me with the Gang Violence Death Count----so impersonal like they were counting cars or something. Yuck.

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For all those who are talking about how many homeschooled children are not well-behaved, I have to say I'm really saddened to hear that. We only get to the US every two years and even then, really only see my sisters' children who are homeschooled. So my sampling is veeerrry small. And here the sampling is veeerrry small too.:) I completely agree that the adult has to not only be there, but has to be doing an "intentional" job (I like that word). The TV and Internet don't usually give intentionally good character education.

 

As of 5th grade, most children will use public transportation across the city to reach their schools, and to participate in afternoon activities which are usually not affiliated with school (sports, music lessons etc)

 

Yes, this is one of the wonderful advantages of good public transport and a relatively safe society. I still have my daughter sit at the front of the bus due to stories of "touching" on the bus. Don't know whether that type of thing happens in Germany. Maybe we have more immigrants in Geneva. In many parts of the city, you would never guess you are in Switzerland. But this city is also pretty small. I can't remember when I last heard of a kidnapping.

 

Just so you know where I am coming from, that is not what I meant when I talked about children being unsupervised. But of course as LL pointed out, it all depends on where you live as to whether supervision in transport is indeed necessary.

 

And I agree about giving kids responsibility in shopping etc and them growing through it. Mine have been going to the store by bike since about the age of 8. (But then, the max speed around here is about 35 mph and for my 17 yo who shops on the way home from track by bike, major streets have lights).

 

My sisters would not be able to do this, usually, as the activities are too far away from their houses and buses non-existent, so the kids are chauffeur-dependent. Then in the US, there is this drastic jump to freedom when 16 yo can start to drive (and parents are so tired of driving them around). Whereas here in CH, generally you have to be 18yo (unless you can afford a small car set to just go the max speed of 35kmh - about 20 mph! just for your 16 yo - which most people cannot) and even then most count on public transport in their daily lives.

 

Joan

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On the tp . . . I wouldn't feel comfortable knowing my kids were doing something like that and not stopping them, or at least expressing my discomfort. I think I would ask them if they were planning to go and clean up the mess after they had done it. To me, that's just treating other people the way we want to be treated, which is something I talk a lot to the other kids about. But you are an experienced mom of grown children, so you must have reasons for seeing this differently than I do.

 

Oh, I did express discomfort. But that's the thing, somewhere in between total helicoptering and total freedom, I think there needs to be stages of supervision. And I think the child needs to earn their eventual freedom while under close supervision, rather than be given their freedom in order to learn how to be free on their own.

 

I didn't like teenage pranks, and believe me I knew the messy results. We had enough pranks done on our house to write a book. But I use that as an example of where a parent could give some freedom while still supervising -- having the child get comfortable with talking to a parent even about the poor decisions he makes, without fear of major repercussions but requiring the child to show adult-level discussion about choices and adult-level strength about calling home.

 

With my oldest son, I worried about things I had see as a teen -- for instance, my girlfriend killed another friend in a drinking-related car crash. I knew kids whose parents said to call them if they got in a bad situation but their kids would rather stay in a terrible situation than call a parent. I wanted to be the parent who would really be called. And if I didn't feel that would happen, then I didn't want to give my kids freedom.

 

That said, I think my homeschooled youngest has a better chance of making good choices, and treating others with true respect as you mentioned. Even though we are still very much a family "in the midst of the world," with boys having LAN parties here and everything that many families on these boards would never allow, I feel homeschooling has given my youngest the chance to really understand our true values deeply, and see how the wider world is affected by these values. Maybe the neighborhood will be spared the inconvenience of TP this time around :)

 

Julie

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Regentrude, I think your post is interesting but not really pertinent...it is a little harder to do intimate activities on public transport or on the street or in a music class. It tends to occur in the parent-less home in the US, though not always. Many American teens have their own cars which have been called "mobile bedrooms". I don't think nearly as many German teens have their own cars - or am I misinformed? and isn't a parent normally at home when the children are?

 

No, a parent is not normally home when children are. As I tried to explain, the common sentiment is NOT that children must be continually watched.

Our parents (and the parents of my friends) allowed us for instance to go on overnight biking/camping trips with our friends from about age 14/15, without adult chaperones.

In 11th grade, my boyfriend and I went on a two week long camping/biking trip together, with parental permission. This was normal.

 

You misunderstood my post. My point was that teenagers are out unsupervised all afternoon - it may be planned that they go to sports or music or are on the bus, but the parent, of course, does not know that this really is where they are. They might be at a secluded park... or they might be at the apartment of an older friend who is living alone... mom being home does not do a thing to prevent that.

 

You can not blame the difference in teen pregnancy rate at the fact that German teens do not have cars.

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Thanks for clarifying. So to what do you attribute the difference?

 

 

Why, oh why do I get all those loaded questions that have the potential of sparking another controversial debate? :)

 

I attribute it to a large part due to a different attitude towards s*x.

German teenagers are much better informed how to prevent pregnancy. I personally don't know any parents who objected to their kids receiving that information in school - and it would not be possible to opt out of that. The prevalent view is that "abstinence-only" does not work and it is better for society to educate teenagers thoroughly in this respect.

A consequence of this is that German teens have better access to contraception. A girl would be able to make an appointment with her doctor and receive birth control prescriptions without having to have parental consent. She does not incur a high cost because her health insurance covers the doctor's visit. The public health insurance companies are required to cover the full cost till age 18 and to charge only a small copay up to age 20.

 

I know that there are other factors playing a role. I hear that in the US some teenagers get pregnant on purpose so their family gets higher welfare payments... even though the welfare system in Germany is a lot more comfortable, that does not seem to big as big a factor.

I could not say how big these other effects are.

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One of the things I really appreciated about Germany when we lived there for several months was the total lack of sexual tension or display. At the beaches young kids under ten ran around with varying degrees of covering, from full suits to bottoms only to nothing. Some women were topless, some were not. At the indoor pool/slide center where we had a membership, the dressing rooms were communal -- there were little closed off stalls for those who wanted them, but mot people dressed and undressed, themselves and their children, out in the open, and no one blinked an eye, stared, compared bodies, etc. It was incredibly liberating. Bodies in most circumstances are simply not sexualized, and that was such a relief.

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I wonder if another of the differences is that in the US with a lot of us it's also a morality issue? Europeans seem to be generally less uptight about premarital relations among teens that the US overall? Also, Europeans seems to be a bit more frank and open about it that us. I'm certainly okay with my teens driving over a mountain pass 150 miles away to go shopping with a friend or two, but dh and I would have a problem with the other extracurriculars that the teens engage in around here---mainly underage drinking and 'relations'. I suppose that does come from our Catholic backbone too. It's pretty comical around here, though, with the amount of effort put forth by the school system and parents about how bad underage drinking is----and yet pretty much ALL the kids drink alcohol with the permission of their parents and also drink and drive---and this includes Big Important Parents like the Dr's kids! Teen pregnancy is HUGE here too---3-4 girls from my dd's age group already have had or having a baby in a class of less than 50.

 

Wow----this thread is now headed in a brand new direction, huh? ;)

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One of the things I really appreciated about Germany when we lived there for several months was the total lack of sexual tension or display. At the beaches young kids under ten ran around with varying degrees of covering, from full suits to bottoms only to nothing. Some women were topless, some were not. At the indoor pool/slide center where we had a membership, the dressing rooms were communal -- there were little closed off stalls for those who wanted them, but mot people dressed and undressed, themselves and their children, out in the open, and no one blinked an eye, stared, compared bodies, etc. It was incredibly liberating. Bodies in most circumstances are simply not sexualized, and that was such a relief.

 

Oh, thanks for mentioning this.

My home town, a city of half a million people, runs several public outdoor pools. One of them is a nude pool - yes, a city run official facility. (Nobody is forced to undress, so you find people in all states of covering there). Nudity is not considered a big deal.

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One of the things I really appreciated about Germany when we lived there for several months was the total lack of sexual tension or display. At the beaches young kids under ten ran around with varying degrees of covering, from full suits to bottoms only to nothing. Some women were topless, some were not. At the indoor pool/slide center where we had a membership, the dressing rooms were communal -- there were little closed off stalls for those who wanted them, but mot people dressed and undressed, themselves and their children, out in the open, and no one blinked an eye, stared, compared bodies, etc. It was incredibly liberating. Bodies in most circumstances are simply not sexualized, and that was such a relief.

 

Whoa! :001_huh:

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I wonder if another of the differences is that in the US with a lot of us it's also a morality issue? Europeans seem to be generally less uptight about premarital relations among teens that the US overall? Also, Europeans seems to be a bit more frank and open about it that us. I'm certainly okay with my teens driving over a mountain pass 150 miles away to go shopping with a friend or two, but dh and I would have a problem with the other extracurriculars that the teens engage in around here---mainly underage drinking and 'relations'. I suppose that does come from our Catholic backbone too. It's pretty comical around here, though, with the amount of effort put forth by the school system and parents about how bad underage drinking is----and yet pretty much ALL the kids drink alcohol with the permission of their parents and also drink and drive---and this includes Big Important Parents like the Dr's kids! Teen pregnancy is HUGE here too---3-4 girls from my dd's age group already have had or having a baby in a class of less than 50.

 

 

 

In Germany we don't even have a drinking age. Shops can't sell wine and beer to under 16 y/o, hard liquor to under 18 y/o - but there is no law about drinking. Kids usually have their first wine at family dinner around 13, they may have a glass of champagne for their confirmation, etc.

Of course there are alcoholics as well, and people get drunk - but I have always wondered how much making forbidden makes it more interesting to teenagers here. Compared to American college campuses, German universities have much less of a drinking problem.

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In Germany we don't even have a drinking age. Shops can't sell wine and beer to under 16 y/o, hard liquor to under 18 y/o - but there is no law about drinking. Kids usually have their first wine at family dinner around 13, they may have a glass of champagne for their confirmation, etc.

Of course there are alcoholics as well, and people get drunk - but I have always wondered how much making forbidden makes it more interesting to teenagers here. Compared to American college campuses, German universities have much less of a drinking problem.

 

 

Keeping it forbidden definitely makes it more interesting! My high school friends and I had a BALL wine tasting in France. :tongue_smilie: I remember hearing about how much less of a problem Germany had with teen drinking when I was in high school in the '80s, but I thought I read recently that things were changing? A girl from here was an exchange student in Sweden in 11th grade----and the pastime of all the kids she hung out with of all nationalities was definitely...drinking.

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but I thought I read recently that things were changing? A girl from here was an exchange student in Sweden in 11th grade----and the pastime of all the kids she hung out with of all nationalities was definitely...drinking.

 

I think they are changing, but not all countries at the same rate or in the same way.

 

My oldest was a university exchange student in Sweden in 2008 and talked about how the students were getting so blasted on the weekend that the girls would not want to really acknowledge that they had talked with you on the weekend because they had no clue what they had done or talked about and didn't want to be embarrassed. They have put huge taxes on alcohol there to try to decrease the amount of drinking.

 

But I don't think it is the same in other countries, though there has been an increase in problems.

 

Joan

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Whoa! :001_huh:

 

Well, my point of comparison is a nude beach about thirty minutes away from me here in southern California. Twenty-something men like to arrange themselves artfully on rocks, appearing to be sunning themselves, showing off a bit of something that is happening, shall we say.

 

And when college girls go topless, it's all giggly and daring and sexualized.

 

What I appreciated in Germany was getting away from a culture in which bodies are sexualized from such an early age, and taken as a fact, as you would your teeth or eyes or hair or big feet or whatever. It can be a real revelation to enter an environment in which the incessant, insistent sexualization is absent.

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I think they are changing, but not all countries at the same rate or in the same way.

 

My oldest was a university exchange student in Sweden in 2008 and talked about how the students were getting so blasted on the weekend that the girls would not want to really acknowledge that they had talked with you on the weekend because they had no clue what they had done or talked about and didn't want to be embarrassed. They have put huge taxes on alcohol there to try to decrease the amount of drinking.

 

But I don't think it is the same in other countries, though there has been an increase in problems.

 

Joan

 

Do you think that some schools are "party schools" as they are here in the US, vs. others which are not so much?

 

If this is an overall trend, I'll go off and cry for my idealistic views of Sweden...

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I see the same rude behavior in children with a stay at home parent and children without one. I see the same rude behaviors in homeschooled children and in public schooled children. People don't parent.

 

:iagree: enthusiastically!

 

I am not impressed with every homeschool student I come in contact with. I am FB friends with hundreds of teens (I work with teens at church and other venues) -- a majority of them homeschooled. The lure of pop-culture and its ills are prevalent in these students, many of whom attend church regularly. Many homeschooled students (and their ps peers) text when speaking to an adult, have sub-par communication skills, are self-absorbed, etc. We are failing our teens on so many levels. Stay-at-home moms get selfish also and neglect their jobs.

 

Working moms, SAHMs, private, public, homeschool moms ALL need to work diligently at this enormous task of raising strong, healthy children. Culture wants to suck our students into the myth of more stuff, more money, more power -- at whatever cost.

 

 

 

Back to the OP...the article is fascinating. I'll look for a local viewing. We won't be running the 'race to nowhere' in my household. Here are my stream-of-consciousness thoughts on the subject. Thank you in advance for indulging.

 

I am raising my teens to be well-rounded. If I was aiming for straight rigorous academics, I would be homeschooling them with the help of tutors. Since we are looking to raise healthy, adjusted, well-rounded adults, dh and I chose to enroll ds in a private school which offers a plethora of opportunities -- while not overburdening him with hours of homework per night. It is just the right amount of rigor. We expect academic excellence from him but we don't put academics as our only priority.

 

Because ds makes wise use of his class time, he doesn't spend hours as a slave to homework. He has time to live, breathe and experience life. Ds has music lessons (voice, guitar & piano), leads worship at church and school, serves in student leadership roles at church and school. He takes a theology class on Wednesday afternoons (outside of school) because he wants to. He spends time playing with his little sisters. He has 'free' time to just be a kid. He has time for team sports (football, lacrosse, etc) and family sports (snowboarding, wakeboarding, bike-riding, etc). He is exposed to culture (we saw Nutcracker ballet last night), art, music, etc. He has ample time to be creative -- which is one of our goals.

 

was profound.

 

Ds asked me last night if he can coordinate a group of teens to go work at the Portland Rescue Mission (where he has served many times before).

 

GPA and SAT scores are irrelevant if my dc don't have heart, character, passion and compassion.

 

We own our own company and, by the grace of God, we do extremely well. We work hard, play hard. Dh understands the balance of work & family and found the sweet spot. We are setting the example for our kids. Money, success, big house, greener pastures don't satisfy. At least not in the long run.

 

Jld I come on here and the focus tends to be rigorous academics' date=' test performance, etc., [/quote']

 

Many folks come to this high school board and feel overwhelmed (and a sense of false-guilt) for not providing the rigor that many here require of their dc. I have read many times here that parents feel inadequate for not doing 'enough' as compared to other highly academic students represented here.

 

My encouragement to parents who feel this way is to follow the path you feel is best for your student. Don't get sucked into the madness. We want healthy, happy, balanced students who are ready for the demands of the adult world they will soon enter.

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Many folks come to this high school board and feel overwhelmed (and a sense of false-guilt) for not providing the rigor that many here require of their dc. I have read many times here that parents feel inadequate for not doing 'enough' as compared to other highly academic students represented here.

 

My encouragement to parents who feel this way is to follow the path you feel is best for your student. Don't get sucked into the madness. We want healthy, happy, balanced students who are ready for the demands of the adult world they will soon enter.

:iagree:

I wouldn't call it "madness," though, because that model clearly works well for some families, and I certainly don't think that families who do have a really heavy academic schedule should feel that they shouldn't post either. (Not saying that's what you were implying, but it seems that some people have made that assumption recently, based on posts in other threads.)

 

Jackie

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:iagree:

I wouldn't call it "madness," though, because that model clearly works well for some families, and I certainly don't think that families who do have a really heavy academic schedule should feel that they shouldn't post either. (Not saying that's what you were implying, but it seems that some people have made that assumption recently, based on posts in other threads.)

 

Jackie

 

Who said anything about censoring the postings of any of the fine folks here? We all have a place here (thank you, SWB).

 

The madness I refer to is evident here in the Race To Nowhere trailer.

 

If parents here forced their kids into fear, anxiety and depression -- then yes, I call it madness.

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Actually, I'd call it selfish, or maybe even narcissim.

 

I'd tend to call it that myself, but I'd also remember how very difficult it can be to resist the siren call of cultural pressures all around you that are so pervasive they're almost in the very air you breathe. This does not excuse in any way what is happening; it just is an attempt to understand what is driving it.

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I have read many times here that parents feel inadequate for not doing 'enough' as compared to other highly academic students represented here.

 

My encouragement to parents who feel this way is to follow the path you feel is best for your student. Don't get sucked into the madness. We want healthy, happy, balanced students who are ready for the demands of the adult world they will soon enter.

 

I think that the best education is one which stimulates and challenges the individual student. Maybe that looks like madness to some people here. I have been criticized IRL to the point where I don't even converse with family about what I do with my children because of these characterizations. I rarely comment here either because people hastily assume it's all push, push, push when the reality is that I am the one pushed around here... pushed to try to challenge and engage three bright minds. Just because it might be madness/anxiety producing for some 9 year old boys to do Algebra, robotics, etc..., maybe.. just maybe it is meeting my son where he is. That's what should be going on, meeting them where they are and taking them to the next level in a manner whereby they derive personal edification. That may look different for each.and.every.student.

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I understand what is driving it all too well. My first one removed himself from the whole thing. My second one was incapable of doing it the standard way. And my third one, having watched his brothers, is flat out refusing to go that route. Not that I encouraged it, but I did feel obliged to explain that route and its advantages in case he wanted to go that way. He prefers to go help build a new temple in Japan and go help his grandfather with his projects and play strategy games and learn to swim and do gymnastics and run around on weekends with a bunch of assasins and sorcerers and healers, to name a few of the activities sucking up his time this year. So with much worry, I have devised an alternative path. Some of that involves textbooks as an efficient means of covering a subject in which he has no interest. Some of it involves racing around trying to tie up the loose ends of what he has managed to cover himself. Some of it requires a lot of research and worry and thought on my part to make a something that I hope will be better than a textbook. At any rate, it is all very worrisome and people keep assuming he is headed for a high level college and I have no idea if even the state university will take him. Ug. And in case you didn't get it, this is scary. Even for us, who live fairly reclusive, family-oriented lives, this is very scary.

-Nan

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I think that the best education is one which stimulates and challenges the individual student. Maybe that looks like madness to some people here. I have been criticized IRL to the point where I don't even converse with family about what I do with my children because of these characterizations. I rarely comment here either because people hastily assume it's all push, push, push when the reality is that I am the one pushed around here... pushed to try to challenge and engage three bright minds. Just because it might be madness/anxiety producing for some 9 year old boys to do Algebra, robotics, etc..., maybe.. just maybe it is meeting my son where he is. That's what should be going on, meeting them where they are and taking them to the next level in a manner whereby they derive personal edification. That may look different for each.and.every.student.

 

So true. I absolutely understand that many students want acceleration. My dc desire academic challenge, in varying degrees.

 

Many irl homeschool parent-peers of mine think my classical bent is borderline criminal.

 

Letting students drive the accelerated learning is ideal, imho. Dd6 wanted to do 6 (yes, 6) math lessons today. Ok. I'm in. Dd7 reads constantly (just finished Wind In The Willows as her free reading) for fun. She also did 3 math lessons today because she enjoys it. It is student-led. Ds loves being the 'smart' one in Alg 2. Dd 13/8th wants to do advanced Spanish at her brother's high school. I'm not pushing them. They love learning.

 

The RTN crowd of students didn't seem that they were the ones driving the workload.

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Do you think that some schools are "party schools" as they are here in the US, vs. others which are not so much?

 

If this is an overall trend, I'll go off and cry for my idealistic views of Sweden...

 

I can speak in no way for the whole of Sweden. But he's trying to do a Masters in a different city there next school year so I'll give you another report then.

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My ds is 15, but he has been walking to various stores and fast food joints with his friends for at least 3 years, and I know of kids allowed to do this much younger. But age 4? My grandson is 4 and is a very slow talker, but I can't imagine him making a purchase. Isn't that the age when they think that three one-dollar-bills are better than one five-dollar-bill?!

 

:lol: I send my 3 yo non talker into some shops, but I stand in the doorway so I can see her and the shop assistants can see me. She still needs coaching me to make sure she shows them what I've given her to buy instead of just thrusting the money at them, and from them to make sure she takes the product and the change instead of leaving them on the counter.

 

One step at a time, and all that :) Hopefully I'll have some idea what balance means for an older child and teen by the time I get there. My mother was way over protective in some ways so I don't think I'd recognise "balance" if it bit me on the bum!

 

:iagree:

I wouldn't call it "madness," though, because that model clearly works well for some families, and I certainly don't think that families who do have a really heavy academic schedule should feel that they shouldn't post either. (Not saying that's what you were implying, but it seems that some people have made that assumption recently, based on posts in other threads.)

 

I think it is less about how "rigorous" (I hate that word too :D) we are or aren't, and more about whether we have very good reasons for whatever we are doing.

 

Rosie

Edited by Rosie_0801
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. I rarely comment here either because people hastily assume it's all push, push, push when the reality is that I am the one pushed around here... .

 

This is my experience too- and if I knew how to double quote I'd be adding in some of Nan's post, too. For me it's a constant challenge to resource the kids, tie it all together in a way that is legible and be at peace. I am always reading, changing, growing in my own understanding of what education and parenting is, modifying as we go.

My oldest commented last summer that she felt sorry for our younger kids becasue school for her, "used to be fun" (oh the responses to that were legion!) While school is definitely different around here than it used to be I find it much more effective.

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The NYT did a debate on the issues brought up by this film yesterday. It's in the Room for Debate section on the Opinion pages. Just fyi.

 

Yikes---reading the comments under the various commentators is stomach churning! The amount of cold-heartedness and hate on homeschooling is just sickening. :glare:

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Yikes---reading the comments under the various commentators is stomach churning! The amount of cold-heartedness and hate on homeschooling is just sickening. :glare:

 

Well I just had to go take a look. The angry mob comments seem to be getting more "recommend this comment" votes, but thank goodness, there are many articulate dissenters. You'll feel better if you read (or re-read as the case may be) the last quote on this page from a college professor.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2010/12/12/stress-and-the-high-school-student/the-home-school-advantage

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