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As an interesting companion to the laxity/slackers thread, there's an article in the NYT education section today entitled Parents Embrace Film on Pressures of School. I'm abjectly sorry that I can't link directly to the article; it doesn't work when I do it. But the paper site is http://www.ewyorktimes.com

 

The film is a homemade documentary which is receiving a lot of attention, particularly on the East Coast at some top tier private high schools.

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I couldn't agree more with this film's message. Mainly because I grew up in that 'Race to Nowhere' academic culture and found out when I REALLY started to live life that I was totally unprepared for the reality of it. My realization that things have only gotten worse since I was in school was learned here---finding out that kids in more affluent/rigorous areas of the country actually started studying and taking practice SAT/ACT's in 7th grade! I think the push is ridiculous and will backfire for a lot of kids deprived of a natural or joyful youth. But we all have to follow the path we feel led to.

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But, I do think it's also a bit of a case of affluenza - meaning it primarily effects only the affluent and is, to a certain extent, a self created problem. It's the kind of article frequently printed in the NYT; it focuses on the concerns of a subset of citizens that may not be applicable to the larger world (the rest of the USA).

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Stacy, I posted about the article because of the ongoing "low expectations" and "rigor" threads. Do you think people's concerns on the boards are somehow reflecting a wider cultural dispersion of the afflluenza/elite school pressures, or would you think there might be some kind of correlation between that pursuit of utmost rigor and "the best" curriculum, and the social class of the posters? Or does homeschooling attract people with upward aspirations who cannot afford the pressurized private school world? Just wondering out loud.

 

I know that I was prey to a lot of those feelings about having to get my child the best, the most rigorous, the most advanced, etc. when she was very young; I am thankful that her neurological differences (she's gifted and an Aspie) pulled me away from that path because I think I was already on a track that would have, as she once said to me feelingly, "killed my joy."

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Do you think people's concerns on the boards are somehow reflecting a wider cultural dispersion of the afflluenza/elite school pressures, or would you think there might be some kind of correlation between that pursuit of utmost rigor and "the best" curriculum, and the social class of the posters? Or does homeschooling attract people with upward aspirations who cannot afford the pressurized private school world?

 

I would like to distinguish between wanting a rigorous education for the education's sake and wanting to have the "right kind" of highschool education to make it into an elite school. These are different goals, and are probably followed by different classes of people.

 

I live in the Midwest, our friends and acquaintances are mostly academics, many are college teachers. they are middle class, but nobody is rich. All find it extremely important to be well educated, both in depths and in terms of a general cultural education. Nobody, however, sees an Ivy league school as a necessity (more along the lines: it's nice if you get in, but knowing that it is quite the lottery and many stellar student's don't make it, it would be foolish to set your sights on this.It is more important where you go to grad school.) Many professors have their children attend a good public university. I have not encountered anybody who is snobbish at another person's college choice.

For those people, education is about the content and not about the label.

 

We homeschool purely for academic reasons; we found the local school not challenging for our children. If I lived still in Germany, I would happily send my kids to school there.

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Stacy, I posted about the article because of the ongoing "low expectations" and "rigor" threads. Do you think people's concerns on the boards are somehow reflecting a wider cultural dispersion of the afflluenza/elite school pressures, or would you think there might be some kind of correlation between that pursuit of utmost rigor and "the best" curriculum, and the social class of the posters? Or does homeschooling attract people with upward aspirations who cannot afford the pressurized private school world? Just wondering out loud.

 

I know that I was prey to a lot of those feelings about having to get my child the best, the most rigorous, the most advanced, etc. when she was very young; I am thankful that her neurological differences (she's gifted and an Aspie) pulled me away from that path because I think I was already on a track that would have, as she once said to me feelingly, "killed my joy."

 

I read bits and pieces of the other threads. Very interesting perspectives. I can't say whether the stress, angst, and anxiety some of our fellow boardies (including myself) are experiencing is reflective of the concerns of the NYT folks. I do think there is real anxiety in our culture, regardless of socio-economic class, regarding education in general, even more so than has been typical in past eras. Our institutions seem to be crumbling around us, even those like the Ivy schools that had adapted to the upheaval of the '60's. Competition from China and India, the value of liberal (or classical) education vs. skill specific degrees, debt incurred in pursuit of degrees, fast moving technology, diminishing standards of living; of excellence, of ethics, of opportunity, all seem to be continuing themes.

 

While neither of my dss are aspies, they have had their own challenges. My oldest is/was dyslexic and my youngest has a diagnosis of Tourette’s Syndrome with ADHD. I wouldn't wish these difficulties on anyone, but I do think sometimes these challenges have pushed us onto The Road Not Taken. And that has made all the difference (as the man said).

:D

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I would like to distinguish between wanting a rigorous education for the education's sake and wanting to have the "right kind" of highschool education to make it into an elite school. These are different goals, and are probably followed by different classes of people.

 

 

I see mostly people who conflate these two; they do value education in and of itself while at the same time panicking about building perfect resumés for their children and wanting the cachet of an elite school. Maybe this is the recipe for a Perfect Storm of the kind the NYT is describing.

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I went through the whole "race" with my older daughter. What we agreed on was that she should concentrate on school and ballet and anything else that REALLY looked fun and interesting and not necessarily resume building. This took a lot of stress off of her and our family. She had time and energy to concentrate on what was important to her. Many of her classmates were burned out by Sr. year. She got into a top school, free ride, happy that she had done it "her way".

The homeschooled dd is as motivated as her sister was. She chose homeschooling because she wanted to focus on studying and doing her dancing and marine bio. prep. She is much more relaxed, our curriculum is v. rigorous with 3AP style courses and loads of writing (her request). She feels that she can focus on "her prize" (an entity which changes monthly but always involves the ocean).

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Two years ago I queried a very large literary agency with a proposal on just this topic. I almost got it-I e-mailed back and forth with the agent but in the end I didn't have large enough of a platform--but this was it. My angle was that we need a need a Slow movement for schooling. Homeschooling specifically, but schooling altogether.

 

Most of the kids in PS I know-one who is a junior now is having monthly breakdowns from the stress. she sat at my table tonight almost crying because her French teacher made a mistake on her paper-2 points, but those two points would bring her from an A to an A- and she was devastated. This is not mentally healthy (the stress). A college senior I know has had ulcers since she was a freshman-from stress. Something is wrong with this.

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I see mostly people who conflate these two; they do value education in and of itself while at the same time panicking about building perfect resumés for their children and wanting the cachet of an elite school. Maybe this is the recipe for a Perfect Storm of the kind the NYT is describing.

 

It's the conflict between a truly liberal or classical education and the desire to check off those lists to compete with peers. They want to be able to let go and encourage their dc to pursue the kind of education that will be most intellectually and morally valuable, but they feel the anxiety of NOT taking the path proscribed by their own peers to elite schools. And they wonder why they aren't able to do both simultaneously.

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I read bits and pieces of the other threads. Very interesting perspectives. I can't say whether the stress, angst, and anxiety some of our fellow boardies (including myself) are experiencing is reflective of the concerns of the NYT folks. I do think there is real anxiety in our culture, regardless of socio-economic class, regarding education in general, even more so than has been typical in past eras. Our institutions seem to be crumbling around us, even those like the Ivy schools that had adapted to the upheaval of the '60's. Competition from China and India, the value of liberal (or classical) education vs. skill specific degrees, debt incurred in pursuit of degrees, fast moving technology, diminishing standards of living; of excellence, of ethics, of opportunity, all seem to be continuing themes.

 

While neither of my dss are aspies, they have had their own challenges. My oldest is/was dyslexic and my youngest has a diagnosis of Tourette’s Syndrome with ADHD. I wouldn't wish these difficulties on anyone, but I do think sometimes these challenges have pushed us onto The Road Not Taken. And that has made all the difference (as the man said).

:D

 

 

Amen.

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Stacy, I posted about the article because of the ongoing "low expectations" and "rigor" threads. Do you think people's concerns on the boards are somehow reflecting a wider cultural dispersion of the afflluenza/elite school pressures, or would you think there might be some kind of correlation between that pursuit of utmost rigor and "the best" curriculum, and the social class of the posters? Or does homeschooling attract people with upward aspirations who cannot afford the pressurized private school world? Just wondering out loud.

 

I know that I was prey to a lot of those feelings about having to get my child the best, the most rigorous, the most advanced, etc. when she was very young; I am thankful that her neurological differences (she's gifted and an Aspie) pulled me away from that path because I think I was already on a track that would have, as she once said to me feelingly, "killed my joy."

 

I would say that it depends on which homeschooling board you read and spend time on. WTM is the most driven one I frequent. I assume it's because Classical Education itself is more 'elite' and probably draws a different crowd than let's say a Christian or Charlotte Mason themed board. I personally was drawn to Classical because it is so similar to my own rigorous schooling, but I am not a fan of what I consider the 'hard core' pushing into the 'most' rigorous of everything, or skipping or dissing high school level curriculum in favor of college level, building that perfect resume, bowing down to the college entrance exam gods etc. :tongue_smilie: I think the difference here at WTM is you have a lot of highly educated parents with exceptional children working at higher levels than the majority, and maybe a disconnect to the fact that not all students can work at the level of some? Therefore the judging of sorts of others' methods and curriculum choices, comparing US education standards to foreign etc.

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Aha! I see Madeline Levine is featured in the movie. I. Love. Her. Okay, maybe I don't looove her, but I love her advice!

 

I have to recommend her book The Price of Privilege which offers excellent advice for anyone concerned with a child's education and future -- homeschoolers and underprivileged included. It's not about setting low standards, but considering what children need to develop into mature, engaged, fruitful adults. A must-read book, if you ask me. I have it on my Shelf of Honor. :)

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Do you think people's concerns on the boards are somehow reflecting a wider cultural dispersion of the afflluenza/elite school pressures, or would you think there might be some kind of correlation between that pursuit of utmost rigor and "the best" curriculum, and the social class of the posters? Or does homeschooling attract people with upward aspirations who cannot afford the pressurized private school world? Just wondering out loud.

 

I know that I was prey to a lot of those feelings about having to get my child the best, the most rigorous, the most advanced, etc. when she was very young; I am thankful that her neurological differences (she's gifted and an Aspie) pulled me away from that path because I think I was already on a track that would have, as she once said to me feelingly, "killed my joy."

 

I haven't yet read the article, but I saw the film trailer a few months ago.

 

We are one of those families who couldn't "afford" the pressures or the prices of private education. Ds17 did not come home for the rigor; he came home for the flexibility. But, alas, I succumb to the pressure. He is taking two AP courses and an honors class, barely finding time to pursue his projects. It is a constant balancing act, because while he wants to have the freedom, he also dreams of top tier schools. So, I make him do the rigorous classes. I think I might be "killing his joy" and I am not sure what to do about it. :glare:

 

Most of the kids around here (Philly suburb, upper middle class) are constantly stressed. And they have aspirations to go to a state school, not Ivy League. Typically, they are great kids, who are involved in sports, clubs, volunteering, SAT prep, Drivers Ed, several APs a year. It seems that they work so hard, make compromises constantly with their time, and yet only look as far as Penn State (certainly not knocking the school; just making the point of how hard these kids work, not even expecting to get into a top tier school). I couldn't imagine my child in an environment in which kids are killing themselves to get into the Ivies without considering anything else.

 

I have to go read Cal Newport (How to be a High School Superstar) again for some reassurance. ;)

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I read bits and pieces of the other threads. Very interesting perspectives. I can't say whether the stress, angst, and anxiety some of our fellow boardies (including myself) are experiencing is reflective of the concerns of the NYT folks. I do think there is real anxiety in our culture, regardless of socio-economic class, regarding education in general, even more so than has been typical in past eras. Our institutions seem to be crumbling around us, even those like the Ivy schools that had adapted to the upheaval of the '60's. Competition from China and India, the value of liberal (or classical) education vs. skill specific degrees, debt incurred in pursuit of degrees, fast moving technology, diminishing standards of living; of excellence, of ethics, of opportunity, all seem to be continuing themes.

 

 

 

 

:iagree:

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We are one of those families who couldn't "afford" the pressures or the prices of private education. Ds17 did not come home for the rigor; he came home for the flexibility. But, alas, I succumb to the pressure. He is taking two AP courses and an honors class, barely finding time to pursue his projects. It is a constant balancing act, because while he wants to have the freedom, he also dreams of top tier schools. So, I make him do the rigorous classes. I think I might be "killing his joy" and I am not sure what to do about it. :glare:

 

Most of the kids around here (Philly suburb, upper middle class) are constantly stressed. And they have aspirations to go to a state school, not Ivy League. Typically, they are great kids, who are involved in sports, clubs, volunteering, SAT prep, Drivers Ed, several APs a year. It seems that they work so hard, make compromises constantly with their time, and yet only look as far as Penn State (certainly not knocking the school; just making the point of how hard these kids work, not even expecting to get into a top tier school).

 

When everyone is structuring their HS education around what they think colleges want to see, instead of what they really want to study, everyone looks alike on paper, and it gets harder and harder for colleges to choose which of the nearly identical, AP-packed transcripts will make the cut — which results in students taking even more AP courses, and having even less free time to pursue their genuine interests. From what I've been reading lately, it seems like a lot of colleges are actually looking for the more "interesting" kids, whose transcripts and essays reflect a passion for certain subjects and an ability for self-directed study. Perhaps giving your son more time for his projects would actually help, rather than hinder, his chances of getting into a top tier school.

 

I couldn't imagine my child in an environment in which kids are killing themselves to get into the Ivies without considering anything else.

You know, I think Americans have a tendency to want "the best" without actually thinking about what "the best" really means. Best for whom? I often see people on this board, especially newbies, ask "What's the best math/grammar/history/science program?" If the "best," most rigorous math curriculum makes your child feel like a total failure, what's the point? I think many people just assume that the Ivies are "the best" universities, therefore if they want "the best" for their kids, they need to aim for the Ivies, without even thinking that maybe a totally different type of school would actually be best for their kids.

 

I was a National Merit Scholar, and my guidance counselor pleaded with me to stick HS out for 4 years and apply to Ivies. Instead I graduated a year early and went to a tiny LAC, where I got exactly the sort of education I wanted. Going to Yale would not have increased my chances of getting into Berkeley for grad school — I got into Berkeley anyway. And even though Berkeley was ranked #2 in the country for my major, I chose #7 UCLA because I felt their program would be best for me. The educational paths I'm pursuing for my kids are what I feel are best for them; their transcripts won't look like anyone else's, and their college choices won't be based on any annual lists.

 

Jackie

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A psychologist who works regularly sees kids from one of the elite prep schools in my city speculates that as may as TWO-THIRDS of the girls either have eating disorders or cut themselves in secret to deal with the pressures.

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Two years ago I queried a very large literary agency with a proposal on just this topic. I almost got it-I e-mailed back and forth with the agent but in the end I didn't have large enough of a platform--but this was it. My angle was that we need a need a Slow movement for schooling. Homeschooling specifically, but schooling altogether.

 

 

Yes indeedy -- are you going to try again? That is one needed book.

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When everyone is structuring their HS education around what they think colleges want to see, instead of what they really want to study, everyone looks alike on paper, and it gets harder and harder for colleges to choose which of the nearly identical, AP-packed transcripts will make the cut — which results in students taking even more AP courses, and having even less free time to pursue their genuine interests.

 

 

I agree 100000000%. :iagree:

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A psychologist who works regularly sees kids from one of the elite prep schools in my city speculates that as may as TWO-THIRDS of the girls either have eating disorders or cut themselves in secret to deal with the pressures.

 

 

And the remaining third take prescription drugs to be able to perform... OK, this may be an exageration and I really don't know figures but you hear of plently of these cases, not only in elite private schools but in high achieving public high schools too.

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When everyone is structuring their HS education around what they think colleges want to see, instead of what they really want to study, everyone looks alike on paper, and it gets harder and harder for colleges to choose which of the nearly identical, AP-packed transcripts will make the cut — which results in students taking even more AP courses, and having even less free time to pursue their genuine interests. From what I've been reading lately, it seems like a lot of colleges are actually looking for the more "interesting" kids, whose transcripts and essays reflect a passion for certain subjects and an ability for self-directed study. Perhaps giving your son more time for his projects would actually help, rather than hinder, his chances of getting into a top tier school.

 

The educational paths I'm pursuing for my kids are what I feel are best for them; their transcripts won't look like anyone else's, and their college choices won't be based on any annual lists.

 

Jackie

 

You're right Jackie. Ds's strengths are in his unique projects. He's a genuinely interesting kid and that would never be revealed in AP scores. This is why he is home, yet I keep getting caught up in the notion that he should take rigorous courses. Thank you for the reminder to revisit the reasons he is home. ;)

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A psychologist who works regularly sees kids from one of the elite prep schools in my city speculates that as may as TWO-THIRDS of the girls either have eating disorders or cut themselves in secret to deal with the pressures.

 

How many of the parents of these kids are really dialed in to their kids? You can have rigor and have a relationship with your kids and push your kids and still have some time to "live." ...don't look at me, but I know people who do :001_smile:

 

And my cynical self wonders how many of these families that can relate so well to this movie have divorced, work f.t or more, are in competitive professional jobs, "living the dream" (i.e. wealth, the American way) Maybe I'm cynical because my dh and I could easily triple our income if we did what these families are doing. But we've made deliberate sacrifices in order to be with our kids, to know them, and to educated them.

Seriously, the mom who made this was told her 12 yo had stomach aches cause of stress and she needed a DOC to tell her this?? Sorry, but I find this to be a discussion of a bunch of wealthy elitists crying, "Woe is me."

As a therapist I'd like to prescribe a good dose of slap therapy. In love, of course.

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i sympathize more with the people who are themselves caught up in this life and are afraid to deviate too far lest they make decisions that shortchange their kids; isn't this what we worry about all the time on these boards? I also know how all too easy it is to become caught up in the values and pressures of those around you, because I could have been one of those parents myself. Maybe I'm just not as confident or strong-minded as some, but I find it difficult, and lonely, to rebel against prevailing ideas of success and what's "best" and most rigorous, even when I see their effects.

 

I also think this reverberates more with people right now because we've all been told that education is the way to better our situations, our lives, our children's lives. And in this economic climate, this is suddenly no longer quite so obviously true. People are frightened. They see the negatives that result from all this pressure on their children, but they're scared that if they let go of that model, something terrible will happen.

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i sympathize more with the people who are themselves caught up in this life and are afraid to deviate too far lest they make decisions that shortchange their kids; isn't this what we worry about all the time on these boards? I also know how all too easy it is to become caught up in the values and pressures of those around you, because I could have been one of those parents myself. Maybe I'm just not as confident or strong-minded as some, but I find it difficult, and lonely, to rebel against prevailing ideas of success and what's "best" and most rigorous, even when I see their effects.

 

I also think this reverberates more with people right now because we've all been told that education is the way to better our situations, our lives, our children's lives. And in this economic climate, this is suddenly no longer quite so obviously true. People are frightened. They see the negatives that result from all this pressure on their children, but they're scared that if they let go of that model, something terrible will happen.

:iagree: with all of it.

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i sympathize more with the people who are themselves caught up in this life and are afraid to deviate too far lest they make decisions that shortchange their kids; isn't this what we worry about all the time on these boards? I also know how all too easy it is to become caught up in the values and pressures of those around you, because I could have been one of those parents myself. Maybe I'm just not as confident or strong-minded as some, but I find it difficult, and lonely, to rebel against prevailing ideas of success and what's "best" and most rigorous, even when I see their effects.

 

I also think this reverberates more with people right now because we've all been told that education is the way to better our situations, our lives, our children's lives. And in this economic climate, this is suddenly no longer quite so obviously true. People are frightened. They see the negatives that result from all this pressure on their children, but they're scared that if they let go of that model, something terrible will happen.

 

Something terrible like what? Going to a state school? Having an income in the double, instead of triple digits? What is the terrible?

 

Do the kids who have everyting handed to them on a silver platter experience the pang of being shortchanged? Those kids who are successful and always on the winning team and have lots of money? I know some psychologists who would give an auto diagnosis for cutting and it's not a pretty one. It's a high price to pay.

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What is terrible? I think it's unknown, and not knowable, for these people, and that's what is so terrifying -- that they are losing certainties and securities and they don't know what will replace them.

 

I don't think like this myself, obviously; I've deliberately turned away from that kind of life and that model of education and that particular idea of what constitutes a successful life. I'm trying to see it as they might, and I think it's a lack of being able to control or order the future. Yes, of course, most of us have NEVER had that luxury. But I can imaginatively try to understand what it might be like to have it and fear losing it, not knowing what to replace it with, not knowing what my child's future will look like.

 

Once you leap of course you see it isn't that scary or terrible; but they're not yet at that point. I'm not defending anybody here, just trying to see what is prompting this.

 

It's ironic and very sad that the questioning of the cost of this model is coming at a time when we as a nation seem ever more determined to put our kids there, with high stakes testing in particular.

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How many of the parents of these kids are really dialed in to their kids? You can have rigor and have a relationship with your kids and push your kids and still have some time to "live." ...don't look at me, but I know people who do :001_smile:

 

And my cynical self wonders how many of these families that can relate so well to this movie have divorced, work f.t or more, are in competitive professional jobs, "living the dream" (i.e. wealth, the American way) Maybe I'm cynical because my dh and I could easily triple our income if we did what these families are doing. But we've made deliberate sacrifices in order to be with our kids, to know them, and to educated them.

Seriously, the mom who made this was told her 12 yo had stomach aches cause of stress and she needed a DOC to tell her this?? Sorry, but I find this to be a discussion of a bunch of wealthy elitists crying, "Woe is me."

As a therapist I'd like to prescribe a good dose of slap therapy. In love, of course.

 

I have seen this myself. One of the reasons I stayed home after my kids were born (only worked part time occasionally) was that I felt I wanted to "know" them. I would say that some of the best times I've had with them is when we've just talked, in the car, at meals, etc. If I had worked all the time I would not have had time for those things (my husband doesn't). The kids in their circle who are the most "in trouble" seem to have lacked a real and sincere relationship with their families. And, it cuts across all class and income levels. A lot of parents are just "too busy".

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I was raised in luxury. I had the luxury of having a stay-at-home mother and all the nice things that go with it (like home-made cookies and somebody to teach me to embroider). I had the luxury of a vacation home (ok - it was 9 feet by 9 feet with no plumbing on a piece of land so small it was unbuidable). I had the luxury of a car for every member of the family with a license (they were junk that constantly broke down but my father was a good enough mechanic and there were enough spare cars that we could get away with it). (Be patient, I am going somewhere with this GRIN.) I had the luxury of cruising on a sailboat for a long vacation every summer and most nice weekends (the boat was old and owned outright and we had partners). None of us had good clothes but we didn't care about that. None of us went to prep school but my parents thought we would get along better in life if we didn't, despite having a much worse a academic education, so that didn't count. Anything we wanted toy-wise, my father made. We travelled. I had all the lessons in extra things like music and dance that I wanted. The only things they refused me were various animals and moving to an island far away from people. My family still let me have a good number of pets and we lived as though we were our own island (with all its disadvantages and advantages). So here is the point. My father and mother, by being ingenuis, resourceful, not caring about appearences, and being very clear with themselves about what was and was not important, had a lifestyle that others dreamed about on the income of a one ordinary engineer in middle management. When we hit our teens, they looked around them and realized that they had a huge problem - it was going to be very difficult for us to continue living such a luxurious lifestyle. They were especially worried about the fact that they had raised us to be stay-at-home mothers and it was highly likely that we were going to have to leave our children in daycare and work all day. They are still talking about how scary that realization was thirty years later.

 

I think that is the sort of scariness KarenAnne is talking about. When you raise a child who lives and breathes horses, or boats, or snowboarding, it is natural for you to want to give that beloved child the means to continue to do those things. Parents alway have to push their children to do things they don't want to do, from toilet training to chores to schoolwork. It isn't always easy to tell if you are pushing too hard, especially if the child is in boarding school and you are distracted with mid-life crises and divorses and trying to make enough to keep the child there. Even at day schools, the students have sports after school and events in the evening, and then homework.

 

-Nan

 

(My parents dealt with it by immediately switching to being transparent about their finances (just not done back then, at least where we lived) and talking a whole lot about the sacrifices and trade-offs they made in order to afford the luxuries that went with a lifestyle far beyond their means. And they apologized profusely for raising us to be happier at home, pointed out that it probably wasn't going to be possible unless we were very lucky, and found examples of mothers working from home and asked how they managed. By staying together as a family and sharing resources (like the boat and vacation house) and doing daycare for each other, we have all managed to keep much of what we grew up with. We also have been extraordinarily lucky.)

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(My parents dealt with it by immediately switching to being transparent about their finances (just not done back then, at least where we lived) and talking a whole lot about the sacrifices and trade-offs they made in order to afford the luxuries that went with a lifestyle far beyond their means. And they apologized profusely for raising us to be happier at home, pointed out that it probably wasn't going to be possible unless we were very lucky, and found examples of mothers working from home and asked how they managed. By staying together as a family and sharing resources (like the boat and vacation house) and doing daycare for each other, we have all managed to keep much of what we grew up with. We also have been extraordinarily lucky.)

 

Your parents sound so healthy. I wish more parents would take this approach.

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I was raised in luxury. I had the luxury of having a stay-at-home mother and all the nice things that go with it (like home-made cookies and somebody to teach me to embroider). I had the luxury of a vacation home (ok - it was 9 feet by 9 feet with no plumbing on a piece of land so small it was unbuidable). I had the luxury of a car for every member of the family with a license (they were junk that constantly broke down but my father was a good enough mechanic and there were enough spare cars that we could get away with it). (Be patient, I am going somewhere with this GRIN.) I had the luxury of cruising on a sailboat for a long vacation every summer and most nice weekends (the boat was old and owned outright and we had partners). None of us had good clothes but we didn't care about that. None of us went to prep school but my parents thought we would get along better in life if we didn't, despite having a much worse a academic education, so that didn't count. Anything we wanted toy-wise, my father made. We travelled. I had all the lessons in extra things like music and dance that I wanted. The only things they refused me were various animals and moving to an island far away from people. My family still let me have a good number of pets and we lived as though we were our own island (with all its disadvantages and advantages). So here is the point. My father and mother, by being ingenuis, resourceful, not caring about appearences, and being very clear with themselves about what was and was not important, had a lifestyle that others dreamed about on the income of a one ordinary engineer in middle management. When we hit our teens, they looked around them and realized that they had a huge problem - it was going to be very difficult for us to continue living such a luxurious lifestyle. They were especially worried about the fact that they had raised us to be stay-at-home mothers and it was highly likely that we were going to have to leave our children in daycare and work all day. They are still talking about how scary that realization was thirty years later.

 

I think that is the sort of scariness KarenAnne is talking about. When you raise a child who lives and breathes horses, or boats, or snowboarding, it is natural for you to want to give that beloved child the means to continue to do those things. Parents alway have to push their children to do things they don't want to do, from toilet training to chores to schoolwork. It isn't always easy to tell if you are pushing too hard, especially if the child is in boarding school and you are distracted with mid-life crises and divorses and trying to make enough to keep the child there. Even at day schools, the students have sports after school and events in the evening, and then homework.

 

-Nan

 

(My parents dealt with it by immediately switching to being transparent about their finances (just not done back then, at least where we lived) and talking a whole lot about the sacrifices and trade-offs they made in order to afford the luxuries that went with a lifestyle far beyond their means. And they apologized profusely for raising us to be happier at home, pointed out that it probably wasn't going to be possible unless we were very lucky, and found examples of mothers working from home and asked how they managed. By staying together as a family and sharing resources (like the boat and vacation house) and doing daycare for each other, we have all managed to keep much of what we grew up with. We also have been extraordinarily lucky.)

 

 

Wow---I LOVE this story! What an amazing upbringing and amazing parents. My parents and upbringing was the polar opposite of this: Dual working professional parents who held education above ALL else. We never did anything as a family together because we 'couldn't afford it' because my parents were paying for private school for 3 kids, designer cars, designer home in designer town. My husband came from a broken home with 4 other siblings and 2 very selfish parents who didn't care about anything but themselves and so he fell through the cracks and didn't even graduate high school(really this gets better :tongue_smilie:) Fast forward to us raising our kids, we give them US first off, then lessons, trips as a family, fun times---even though we have to scrimp and save even more now than ever. It really is a very balanced act between my husband and I with me pushing the academics and trying to fight my academic overboard upbringing, and my husband pushing the basics of life like chores and accountability---and in the middle we try to give our kids everything we didn't have.

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I have seen this myself. One of the reasons I stayed home after my kids were born (only worked part time occasionally) was that I felt I wanted to "know" them. I would say that some of the best times I've had with them is when we've just talked, in the car, at meals, etc. If I had worked all the time I would not have had time for those things (my husband doesn't). The kids in their circle who are the most "in trouble" seem to have lacked a real and sincere relationship with their families. And, it cuts across all class and income levels. A lot of parents are just "too busy".

:iagree::iagree:

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I'm at the point these days that I'm ready to chuck it all and unschool. I really miss the freedom we had when we were doing our own eclectic thing. School wasn't the be all and end all of our day. When life had something interesting to offer, which was more days than not, we made that the focus and got the basics done around that. Now it's all about getting each and every subject covered, assignments done, and to top it all off, get scores that will result in a good grade. It's really hard when you need a 95 in order to get an A. I don't think the school realizes how much stress this causes the students. Why are they doing this? A 94 is a 3.7 and an 85 is a 2.7 - ridiculous IMO. I know from reading here that many colleges recalculate according to a normal 90-A 80-B scale, but not all. And there is no such thing as honors courses or a higher than 4.0 for AP either. So if you get even just one 94, you've blown your chances for a 4.0. Why does that matter? Scholarships. That's what it all seems to boil down to for us. For me, that's where the stress comes from.

 

My dd enjoys most of her subjects, but she also enjoys writing and music and so many other things that are getting less time these days. It's so hard to know what to do. We've already dropped a course we added because it made her school day way too long, but I still don't know what our overall focus should be. I've been going on the idea that it's important for her to have a solid foundation in all the major subjects in high school so she's not limited in any way in college. But these other interests, which are outside the "normal" curriculum, add a lot of joy.

 

I'd love to see this documentary. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

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Why does that matter? Scholarships. That's what it all seems to boil down to for us. For me' date=' that's where the stress comes from. [/quote']

 

I would not let the hope of scholarships run your life unless you absolutely know that they are a real possibility and that they will help the total cost.

 

- Scholarships will help if you qualify for no grants.

 

- Scholarships may help if you qualify for full grants and still have an assessed "need." This mostly affects the very poor, such as students who are independent of their parents.

 

- Scholarships will not help if your assessed "need" results in a grant that fully covers that "need" (according to FAFSA). At that point, dollar-for-dollar the scholarship will just replace the grant. In our case, it even somehow ended up taking away more grant dollars that my son received in scholarships. So our out-of-pocket cost was higher with scholarships than it would have been with grants. Still makes me growl.

 

Julie

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One of the WTM handwringers checking in!

 

It was never our intention to duplicate traditional high school, but I'll admit that I did fear the college application process without some of the traditional markers on my son's transcript. For him, this included AP and some community college courses (for lab science and grades other than mommy ones).

 

I have not been participating in this thread or the one on expectations namely because I have been busy sewing Christmas gifts. But this in itself is an observation that should be made either here or in the other thread: handwork skills are important to me. Education in our house included cooking (the real thing--not opening boxes), sewing, electronics work, etc. These skills and others are not part of the normal curriculum for the top tier college bound student which I think is a shame. We have engineers who are undergoing great theoretical educations, but do they know how to build something? Can our students who are concerned about environmental issues repurpose things as their grandparents may have done?

 

Now I am not suggesting that the Great Books should be neglected--they are part of who we are (and what we discuss as we are munching our homemade scones and jam). This tactile part of who we are displays itself in my son's interest in archaeology. And this is what I fear for the coming generations who have been so busy learning to take tests and polish their resumes with competitive sports: can these students integrate their studies and the real world?

 

One of my friends, a retired biology teacher, regrets the changes brought about by the AP curriculum at his former school. He has noted that in days of old, the students would spend much more time out of doors observing. They would have camping trips into the wilderness as part of their environmental studies. Former students of those times are still in contact with my friend--they cherish their hands on experience. He does not think that today's students will remember AP Biology with such fondness.

 

I do not believe that education needs to be "fun". That is not my argument. But it should not be drudgery or rote.

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I do not believe that education needs to be "fun". That is not my argument. But it should not be drudgery or rote.

 

It's been my observation that when parents include thier kids in their passions, thier kids respond with enthusiasm and when it boils down to it quality time is quantity time.

My dh is a NASA/astronomy/weather watcher geek. So are our kids. We don't study NASA or astronomy or the weather. But you should see how miuch fun they have together gathered around the computer checking out web-sites and watching the space station (talk about low-action film!) and discussing the weather regularly (NOAA is one of our home pages) and how much they KNOW about all of these subjects. My dh is discipling our kids- just like Jane does in the kitchen. Parents who are hyper concerned with performance outcomes seem to lose sight of who the people are.

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If I had worked all the time I would not have had time for those things (my husband doesn't).

 

Good point. And from what I have seen of the statistics, even when women are working they do more of the household management, so you would have actually had even less time than your husband has with your children.

 

I think there is something missing in the math that people are doing about both parents working and raising children properly.

 

Joan

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(My parents dealt with it by immediately switching to being transparent about their finances (just not done back then, at least where we lived) and talking a whole lot about the sacrifices and trade-offs they made in order to afford the luxuries that went with a lifestyle far beyond their means. And they apologized profusely for raising us to be happier at home, pointed out that it probably wasn't going to be possible unless we were very lucky, and found examples of mothers working from home and asked how they managed. By staying together as a family and sharing resources (like the boat and vacation house) and doing daycare for each other, we have all managed to keep much of what we grew up with. We also have been extraordinarily lucky.)

 

This point is very timely for us because I just read that a 4 bedroom house is renting for $9,000/mo here (thankfully not what we pay). Everyone is suddenly moving here because their companies can avoid taxes. So I'm looking at my children and saying, what are they going to be able to even live in? I think I have to start doing the talking your parents were doing...

 

Thanks Nan!

Joan

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A psychologist who works regularly sees kids from one of the elite prep schools in my city speculates that as may as TWO-THIRDS of the girls either have eating disorders or cut themselves in secret to deal with the pressures.

 

I ran a 44 person female honors dorm and co-ran a 45 person honors male dorm in the (cough, cough) 80s at a 2nd? tier state school. We had eating disorders, cutting, drug use, alcoholism, domestic abuse (heterosexual & homosexual)... you name it.

 

And that was back before anyone cared what your SAT scores were.

 

 

asta

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A lot of parents are just "too busy".

 

A lot of parent's just cannot afford to not work. My BFF down the street is working longer and has to because they are firing people and is she wants to keep her job, she HAS to work. Her husband just was hired. When she gets home she is so completely and utterly exhausted she is close to brain dead. He is the same. They live no luxurious lifestyle, one car, no vacations, nothing. They work to keep a roof over their head and food on the table. Believe me, she would give *anything* to quit.

 

 

 

-Nan

 

(My parents dealt with it by immediately switching to being transparent about their finances (just not done back then, at least where we lived) and talking a whole lot about the sacrifices and trade-offs they made in order to afford the luxuries that went with a lifestyle far beyond their means. And they apologized profusely for raising us to be happier at home, pointed out that it probably wasn't going to be possible unless we were very lucky, and found examples of mothers working from home and asked how they managed. By staying together as a family and sharing resources (like the boat and vacation house) and doing daycare for each other, we have all managed to keep much of what we grew up with. We also have been extraordinarily lucky.)

 

I was raised pretty much the same way. My step father's family is HUGE and the family had a lake house, boats, sailboats, snowmobiles and we all did everything together. Grandpy could fix *anything*. And they sacrificed and pulled together to get all of that-no one was more than middle middle class. Growing up, it was idyllic. And the same thing happened. But then I got to be a senior, the well had dried up for everyone and nothing was said and no one talked about what we would do now-especially my parents. It was devastating.

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I would not let the hope of scholarships run your life unless you absolutely know that they are a real possibility and that they will help the total cost.

 

I wouldn't let the hope of scholarships ruin anything. Parent with the REAL end goal in mind -- raising your kids to fulfill their calling.

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I think there is something missing in the math that people are doing about both parents working and raising children properly.

 

 

Lets NOT go there, please.

It is perfectly possible to raise children properly, have strong family ties and good relationships, if both parents work.

(There is a large cultural and socioeconomic component - elsewhere in the world, working mothers are normal. Where I was growing up, almost all mothers worked, mine included.)

 

Equating working mothers with child neglect is highly offensive to me, as to many other mothers who work. (Plus, by extension it is akin to saying single mothers can't possibly be good parents.)

There is no ONE way, and for some families, mom staying at home is NOT the best option.

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I just want to make sure that nobody thinks I was saying that you can't have a good family with two working parents. My parents just realized that they had raised us to assume we would get to stay home if we wanted to (we were saying we did), and they realized that it was unlikely that we were going to be able to, with the rising cost of living. They realized that we needed examples of good, strong, happily working women with both careers and children, and that up until then, we hadn't had any (just because we were a rather reclusive family). In my case, my father volunteered me to babysit the occasional evening for a couple who were both working as engineers and had just had a baby. The mother had younger sisters and was happy to serve as a role model. Then I got lucky and we have been able to manage with me at home, since that is where I am happiest.

 

Just want to be clear...

-Nan

Edited by Nan in Mass
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