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S/O writing-What KINDS of writing should be mastered in Logic Stage + in what order?


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Do they need how to write a report, an essay? (Is a report an essay?)

 

Do they need experience with compare/contrast, descriptive, etc?

 

OR more generally-How are the types of writing classified, and in what order are they generally taught?

 

Obviously they should write a good sentence, then a solid paragraph-that's the start.

 

What next? Would it be ok to teach how to do a five-paragraph essay and then they can use that format for all their academic writing-compare/contrast, literature analysis, etc.?

 

I am having trouble coming up with a big picture plan for logic stage writing because I don't know what needs to be taught over that period of time!

 

(I have the SWB lectures and I think that's a good start, but I think there needs to be more creative writing, and more genres of writing than that.)

 

Sorry, I have been having a ton of questions lately, trying to get our big picture for logic stage, but I'm hoping my questions and everyone's gracious and informative answers are helping others too!

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This reply is slanted: my dd loves to write, and I have written and published both academic and popular articles as well as taught writing at the college level. So just be aware that like SWB I'm very comfortable without a formal program or progression and this may not be useful if what you're looking for is a book of exercises or specific instructions.

 

One of the ways to go about expanding writing range and your child's understanding of different styles and genres is simply to read from a variety of sources. I began reading book reviews from the NYT to my daughter (first of kids' books, then expanding outward), then some of the opinion blogs and opinion pieces. We absolutely treasure Muse magazine, which in every issue has an article based on a newly published non-fiction book -- usually science or history-based. These are wonderful tools for looking at how the writing is set up: does it start with an anecdote, a question, a narrative? How many different ways can we list for the ways that non-fiction articles begin? Which are more appropriate for some types of writing than others? You can do the same for the middles and endings.

 

If you read non-textbooks for your studies, look at those in the same way. Talk about what kinds of language and syntax the writer uses, how he or she tries to keep reader interest going (or fails), what kind of evidence is provided for arguments, etc.

 

You will end up with a huge, sprawling chart of different ways to approach a non-fiction writing task. If you read magazines like Muse and/or other non-conventional non-fiction that combines disciplines or genres (things like Bill Bryson are wonderful for that, and most kids in middle school can read at least some chapters from his books), you can talk about the ways that non-fiction writing can indeed be very creative -- that creativity isn't just confined to short stories or novels or poetry, which is sadly what many people believe.

 

I do not have my dd outline and rewrite from outlines repeatedly; she would kill herself in under two weeks. She writes lab reports, but for other subjects she writes in formats she thinks up or I suggest or we brainstorm together: an imaginary newspaper review for opening night of a musical, a book report in the voice and style of a wacky character from a fantasy novel, an introduction to a book by another character (arguing perhaps that the book is misleading and shouldn't be read or something wild), a speech introducing an author to a book club, a fan fiction continuation of a favorite book, a newly discovered speech by a famous historical personage, etc.

 

Although some people think otherwise, these formats are all doing the work of having a child thoroughly digest and analyze what she reads in terms of both content and formal qualities like diction, style, and structure; they require a child to put her ideas into organized fashion and get them down on paper. For a kid with a creative bent, or just one who finds endless outlining and report-style writing unbearable, these are perfectly valid options. I mix them with a very few more traditional essays.

 

Like SWB, I avoid the five-paragraph essay as much as possible. I have taught it to dd as an essay-test-taking strategy that is just not used in the real world. If your child can write a decent paragraph, it's easy to show him the structure of a five-paragrapher, to discuss how to write introductions and conclusions, and how to include quotes or facts as evidence. But don't make it the focus of his writing program during these years (or any!). You want the content, the ideas, the purpose, to drive the structure and organization, not some all-purpose template into which you try to cram what you want to say.

 

Looking at how other good writing works is one of the best ways to work through the possibilities and configuration of non-fiction. Mix in the fact that "creativity" doesn't have to mean inventing characters or storylines, and you've got two of the main elements down.

 

Edited to add: I think it's good to remember that for SWB, "original" writing -- that is, not outlining and then reconstructing a paragraph from that outline but rather something that begins to resemble an essay -- is still fairly informal at this stage. It isn't really until high school that she feels kids are ready to begin putting together longer papers on their own, and it's still a process even then. If you also read and listen to her on the rhetoric stage as well as the logic stage, you'll have more of an idea of what the changes are between those two levels and where you want to be by around ninth grade.

 

And you don't have to abandon earlier tools either. One of the recent Peace Hill videos showed her 13-year-old doing dictation; my dd, 14, still does extensively copywork of her own choosing.

 

What you do also depends to some extent on your child's particular bent and your intentions about high school. If you have a math/science-oriented child, I'd do more writing centering on those fields and be more interested in what constitutes evidence, when narrative gets used, etc. There are many wonderful science articles in Muse. If you are planning on sending your child to high school, either public or private, you're going to need to introduce a very conventional, workmanlike short essay and report format that can be produced in short time periods under pressure (here's where the popularity of the five-paragraph essay also comes into play), and do this earlier than you might otherwise, as these are used extensively in the schools at earlier ages.

Edited by Guest
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Do they need how to write a report, an essay? (Is a report an essay?)

 

You know the part in SWB's writing lectures, where she talks about how logic stage kids can continue on with grammar-stage style narrations, until they learn to rewrite from outlines? To me, that is beginning report-writing. And then the rewrites-from-outlines, to me, are report-writing in a multi-paragraph way.

 

Also, the lit. analysis lecture goes into detail for logic stage, on teaching how to write a literary response. To me, both of these items are beginner level, but the teaching is there.

 

Do they need experience with compare/contrast, descriptive, etc?

 

What next? Would it be ok to teach how to do a five-paragraph essay and then they can use that format for all their academic writing-compare/contrast, literature analysis, etc.?

 

I agree with KarenAnne and SWB on the non-importance of teaching how to do a five-paragraph essay. I think if a child can learn how to write academically in general, then he can adapt to a five-paragraph essay if ever needed in real life.

 

(I have the SWB lectures and I think that's a good start, but I think there needs to be more creative writing, and more genres of writing than that.)

 

You could certainly add a creative writing component if you wish. But not everyone has a knack for it, just like not everyone has a knack for gourmet cooking.

 

About the other types of writing you mentioned - over the years I have slowly collected all the rhetoric books recommended in WTM, as well as a couple more SWB rec'd. in her high school lecture. I also have the R&S TMs. I have browsed through these at different times, and these types of writing are all taught (plus more!) in these books. That helps me to relax about logic stage now, because I can just concentrate on teaching outlining and rewriting, over a long period of time. (I'm slightly worried, though, that when Writing With Skill comes out, I'm going to find things added in there that aren't mentioned in the lectures, but oh well, I'll deal with that when the time comes :D) I just started teaching rewriting from an outline a few weeks ago, and I find that it's a little more involved than I originally thought. I'm having ds compare his rewrite to the original paragraphs, helping him see the difference between narrating and making sure he includes the info. from his outline in his rewrite. And then working on spelling, punctuation, and grammatical structure. Sentence variety. All the grammatical/sentence/basic paragraphing things he has learned so far from R&S, without getting into different styles of paragraphs that we've skimmed over in R&S. (Again, I believe the rhetoric study will expand on these different styles and give more practice, so I'm fine with skimming or skipping them now)

 

Anyway, that's how I'm going about the whole logic stage writing issue. Right now I can't imagine trying to do what is in the lectures (narration, outline, rewrite, lit. response; combined with continual work on spelling/punctuation/grammar) plus introducing and working on those other genres that R&S introduces in logic stage years. The lecture/WTM writing suggestions keep my son's mind quite busy with learning/reinforcing.

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Wow, KarenAnne, if I could come up with all those ideas on my own and then teach it, I wouldn't have needed to write the original post! What an amazing writing education your dd is getting! But alas, that's exactly what I don't know how to do.

 

Colleen-it seems much of what is in the lectures comes pretty naturally to dd-she could actually summarize easily in 1st grade-could take a chapter of SOTW and boil it down to the essence of it-always amazed me! She is fine with outlining too, at least the main point per paragraph, which is the 5th grade recs. We could use work on the literary response, but again, I seem to need more handholding.

 

And basically I kind of need a big picture for where I'm going, or I just flounder.

Edited by HappyGrace
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Wow, KarenAnne, if I could come up with all those ideas on my own and then teach it, I wouldn't have needed to write the original post! But alas, that's exactly what I don't know how to do.

 

And basically I kind of need a big picture for where I'm going, or I just flounder.

 

I'm sorry -- I was afraid it would come across like that. But the main point that both SWB and I are making is that you don't need a book with a whole different bunch of essay and report types to run through and cross off your check list. For the logic stage, it's sufficient if they keep focusing on summarizing main points and learning how to differentiate main points from supporting evidence, can write a coherent paragraph, and discuss what they read. SWB is concerned with making sure that grammatical correctness is automatic by high school. I have only taught my one dd, who was born wired with that, so I am more concerned with meeting her need for diverging from the conventional and exploring multiple genres. But that is not necessary for a kid who just needs to learn how to write for school purposes and doesn't have the writing bug.

 

What a kid needs by the end of high school, SWB spells out in her rhetoric stage sections of her book and her lectures. Basically they need to be able to write up a procedure, like a science experiment for instance, with accuracy and precision. They need to know how to write some kind of explanatory essay, and how to make and support an argument. That's it. If they have those things down cold, they're good to go for college.

 

All the rest -- the playing around and experimenting with diction, different options for livening up an essay, etc. -- are icing on the cake, and can certainly be developed in a good college freshman writing class, or even in later courses with a professor who has a good editorial eye and is willing to help students revise (and many are). My own dd just happens to really like doing this sort of thing and I wondered from your original post where you talked about teaching creative writing whether your child had a similar bent; and I was throwing out a lot of ideas with this in mind.

 

There's certainly no need to panic in the logic stage. It's sort of like math, in a way: you want kids to be able to flip around fractions, decimals, and percentages with ease, to make fairly accurate estimates in their heads, and to understand how to think about problems in a few different ways before they go into algebra. You want them to have algebra really, truly mastered before you send them into calculus. This doesn't mean they can't break out of the lock-step curriculum and play with more advanced concepts "out of sequence" or before the textbook introduces them. It doesn't even mean, for every kid, that the basics MUST be absolutely mastered before they work on advanced concepts. It's just a general rule of thumb.

 

SWB, to my mind, approaches writing in a similar way. She wants kids to have the basics of correct grammar and syntax down cold before they take on larger writing projects. She wants them to have a lot of experience talking and writing about main ideas and supporting ideas before they attempt to reproduce this type of thing in their own writing. This doesn't mean that every kid needs to follow the program she lays out and shouldn't mix up the stages or steps ever. It's a road map, the kind of overall map you're talking about needing. The logic stage is a reinforcement stage; it doesn't introduce anything radically new in terms of writing, and I can see where for some people it might seem like you're in a holding pattern and not moving forward. Some kids would be ready to move beyond that much earlier. But in general, it's like working on your fractions and decimals until you can do them backwards and forwards without having to stop and think it through every time you encounter them, so that when you need to deal with them as one step in a multi-step problem, you won't bog down. Same thing with the narration and outlining and discussion.

 

However, if you have a "natural" writer, or if your instincts are telling you that you want to do more exploration of different ways of writing, and would like to address or incorporate more creative formats and genres, etc. -- take a look at Nancy Atwell's book In the Middle: New Understandings About Writing, Reading, and Learning. Atwell is the guru of a very different model of writing instruction and it might be interesting or useful for you to compare what she says with TWTM.

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Some kids would be ready to move beyond that much earlier. But in general, it's like working on your fractions and decimals until you can do them backwards and forwards without having to stop and think it through every time you encounter them, so that when you need to deal with them as one step in a multi-step problem, you won't bog down. Same thing with the narration and outlining and discussion.

 

KarenAnne, I didn't mean it in a negative way toward you at all or think you came off badly-I really appreciated what you said and it gave me great food for thought. I guess these days I'm just starting to wonder if I'm holding dd back-if she had a better teacher like that, I know she could fly, so I'm feeling frustrated. I'm not even sure if she is a natural writer or not-she likes to write and wants to do more of it, and I'm like a deer in the headlights, not knowing what to have her write.

 

The above quote from what you wrote really resonated with me. Maybe more cementing of basic concepts is a good idea; I never thought of it that way. She does seem to have a lot of the basics down after three yrs in IEW, but maybe I'm wrong. I need to ponder this some.

 

Thank you for your thoughts! :)

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I do not have my dd outline and rewrite from outlines repeatedly; she would kill herself in under two weeks. She writes lab reports, but for other subjects she writes in formats she thinks up or I suggest or we brainstorm together: an imaginary newspaper review for opening night of a musical, a book report in the voice and style of a wacky character from a fantasy novel, an introduction to a book by another character (arguing perhaps that the book is misleading and shouldn't be read or something wild), a speech introducing an author to a book club, a fan fiction continuation of a favorite book, a newly discovered speech by a famous historical personage, etc.

 

Although some people think otherwise, these formats are all doing the work of having a child thoroughly digest and analyze what she reads in terms of both content and formal qualities like diction, style, and structure; they require a child to put her ideas into organized fashion and get them down on paper. For a kid with a creative bent, or just one who finds endless outlining and report-style writing unbearable, these are perfectly valid options. I mix them with a very few more traditional essays.

 

 

 

I like the above approach because it allows for creativity in style and form but doesn't require the writer to create whole worlds out of their head.

 

I like that SWB emphasizes non-fiction writing of different forms and purposes. We aren't all called to be J. K. Rowling. But we may all need to write a perssuasive letter, document an accident, journal about a vacation. And there are many opportunities for writing about what we read in interesting ways.

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I think sometimes we look for paradigms because it fits *our* need for structure and ease of implementation. That doesn't mean it is what will pull the best out of our kids, but it's what is easiest for us to wrap our minds around. It has occurred to me lately that maybe I took SWB's comments about waiting on formal writing a bit too far, hehe... Don't know. I will say the challenge with giving more creative options is following through. Sometimes those assignments balloon and end up taking longer than you expected. Out goes the math lesson, out goes the... Then you get frustrated and want to run back to your nice shelter of a workbook essay progression, hehe... Maybe some balance, eh? I figure if we do Jump-In for our everyday writing instruction progression and then do daily subject writing where the SUBJECT WRITING gets to vary (sometimes creative, sometimes blaise), then we're still where we need to be and haven't sucked out our souls.

 

My dd has been doing notetaking and outlining as she researches topics for her geography stuff. She loves it, just loves it, and I'm finally getting the vision that that naturally turns into more formal writing, duh. But we'll just slide it gently. I think Karen's nudge toward creative options with the non-fiction too is right on track. Doesn't have to be all one or the other. And none of that has to replace the more formal writing curriculum either. (my security blanket!)

Edited by OhElizabeth
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We could use work on the literary response, but again, I seem to need more handholding.

 

And basically I kind of need a big picture for where I'm going, or I just flounder.

 

Lit. response - have you listened to the lit. analysis lecture? I'm sorry, I know you and I have interacted before, but I can't remember who has listened to what anymore. Anyway, I did find the lecture to be more handholding than the WTM book. And actually, my son is in grade 7, where there is a transition going on from just discussing and writing a simple narration, to discussing more questions and writing up answers to one or more questions. I have the directions from the lecture carefully written out in my notes because they are more detailed than WTM, yet I keep forgetting what to do and when and how. I have to keep looking back. But the handholding is there. I imagine that when Writing With Skill comes out, we'll have all the handholding we need!

 

Big picture - I SO remember needing this a few years ago, and not being able to figure it out!!! But again, the lectures really helped me. My take on it is pretty much what I've quoted from KarenAnne below:

 

you don't need a book with a whole different bunch of essay and report types to run through and cross off your check list. For the logic stage, it's sufficient if they keep focusing on summarizing main points and learning how to differentiate main points from supporting evidence, can write a coherent paragraph, and discuss what they read. SWB is concerned with making sure that grammatical correctness is automatic by high school.

 

She wants kids to have the basics of correct grammar and syntax down cold before they take on larger writing projects. She wants them to have a lot of experience talking and writing about main ideas and supporting ideas before they attempt to reproduce this type of thing in their own writing.

 

So this is pretty much what I am focusing on for my son. Oh, he used to write stories about The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars type of things, but generally he doesn't like to put those ideas to paper, and I've never pushed it. So with him, I concentrate on this "holding pattern" that KarenAnne described - only I'm finding it's not so holding-patternish - there is a LOT of thought that goes into learning to write via outlining/rewriting/lit. response! It's a good thing SWB spread the process out over four years as an ideal. It helps me not to panic, lol! My daughter will be a slightly different story - I will still concentrate on this logic stage techniques, but maybe we'll get deeper into the R&S writing lessons - maybe she'll enjoy those more creative ones, and use the techniques on her own. She does write a lot of stories and poems on her own.

 

Maybe more cementing of basic concepts is a good idea; I never thought of it that way.

 

You know, I think that for all my son's struggles in his younger years (it was a joyous day in 5th grade when he wrote three sentences of a narration on his own!!), I think he is coming along nicely in his writing ability. He learned to type, which revolutionized it some for him, but he also had a whole year to learn one-level outlining, which he needed. Then another whole year on two-level, but towards the middle to end of that year he started adding in three levels on his own because the idea of how to sort a paragraph's ideas into an outline started to become second nature. This year, with required three-level outlines, he is doing fantastically. Sometimes he organizes them differently than I would, but he is always able to explain his logic to me in doing so. All of this took TIME for him to get comfortable with, and I think that's why SWB spreads it out and recommends doing that for so many kids. (never mind the fact that this age is hormonal and forgetful and distracted and ........) I'm quite happy to be in this slow holding pattern while he gets super comfortable with this basic process. He has produced 3 or 4 rewrites from outlines now, and I was able to catch blips in my explanations to him, and we are finding a groove, but again, I'm glad for the time to do this. I can't imagine trying to teach this stuff in a hurry. I still think that learning to write is really learning to think, and it just takes time.

 

One more thought related to your need for the big picture: The thing I needed a couple of years ago was end goals - what should I be aiming for by the end of grade 8. Now I have some. I want my kids, by the end of grade 8, to be comfortable enough to outline (to the third or fourth level) a few paragraphs (6? 8? 10? still playing with this) of a book, and to be able to rewrite those paragraphs from that outline, with correct spelling/grammar/punctuation, and good sentence variety and good logic. That rewrite should be a page or two long (I think double-spaced with 12 pt. is a standard? not sure). And I think because of all the practice in previous years, this 1-2 page essay/report should be easier than I thought it would be. Also, I want them to be comfortable talking about a lit. book with both the content questions and the evaluation questions, and to be able to write a response to it, answering some of the eval. questions. There may have been a page length rec. in the lecture, but I can't remember.

Edited by Colleen in NS
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So with him, I concentrate on this "holding pattern" that KarenAnne described - only I'm finding it's not so holding-patternish - there is a LOT of thought that goes into learning to write via outlining/rewriting/lit. response! It's a good thing SWB spread the process out over four years as an ideal.

 

Exactly. It can seem like running in place because your child is basically doing the same thing over this time period; but it's a process of learning how to do it, discussing it, refining it, and becoming more and more comfortable, as you described. So you really are "getting somewhere," but the repetition of the basic process can make it appear as though you're not. This repetition is really wonderful for many kids, anathema to others (my ever-rebellious dd among them). All kids will move through it somewhat differently.

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Happy, if you go to Lori D's post that I linked to, she has a link you can click for SWB's lecture notes with the evaluation questions. I printed them out and put them in a page protector for us to use. Don't know WHY I was so slow on that one, lol.

 

As with Karen's dd, my dd is BORED STIFF with rewrites. Sucks the soul right out of her. Might be my bad character, poor parenting to let her be opinionated, call it what you want. You have to get a little more spicy with some kids. Some kids are just stinkin' opinionated. Mine told me in 1st grade that I ought to read the book myself if I so all-fired wanted to know what it said, and that was the end of our narration stage. ;)

 

This whole idea of researching fresh material and taking notes has so taken a hold with her, I'm definitely running with it. Hmmm, now it occurs to me how easy it would be to use those notes to do Karen's more interesting writing! So she could take her notes on Mt. Fuji and write a story about climbing Mt. F or make a travel brochure...

Edited by OhElizabeth
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I just wrote a post about our writing for this year, but I have to agree with OE and Karen. If writing consisted of just outlining and writing from an outline, dd would not be happy. I teach outlining because it's one tool for studying. However, SWB's rewrite sequence is similar to the first two units of IEW, and I've seen people get stuck on those units for months/years with little writing progress. Btw, I am not criticizing IEW because it offers a wide variety of writing genres; i.e. reports, writing from pictures, story summaries, basic 5-paragraph essay, etc.

 

Adding to Karen's ideas for taking research notes and developing interesting writing projects, you might want to take a look at 6-Trait Writing books by Ruth Culham. Her books are chock-full of ideas for writing across the curriculum. This is Julie Bogart's message as well; i.e. find a topic that interests your child, help them narrow the topic and research if need be, then find an interesting way to present the information. Children's books offer all kinds of writing ideas. For example, Bat Loves the Night is a delightful combination of narrative and expository writing. Like SWB, I wouldn't force creative writing on a student who doesn't enjoy it. However, some students wilt with expository only. Also, check out materials on writing personal memoir -- The Gift of Family Writing. Again, Julie Bogart encourages this.

Edited by 1Togo
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However, SWB's rewrite sequence is similar to the first two units of IEW, and I've seen people get stuck on those units for months/years with little writing progress.

 

Yes, this is our problem. As I thought about "cementing skills" last night, I realized I am good with where we are on writing/rewriting from outlines. Dd has done IEW for years, almost exclusively-started in 1st grade with some light KWOs from fairy tales, and then did IEW in 2nd grade-present. Her eyes are glazing over, she is not progressing, and she is desperate to branch out! She is pretty good with creative writing, so I don't want to concentrate as much on that right now. But she'll be doing some co-op classes next year that she will need to know how to put together a good report, and we've never worked on that.

 

We will work more on formal outlining, and occasionally rewriting from them. But as 1togo said, I see formal outlining more as a tool for note-taking/studying/organizing thoughts. I think we can do this with formal outlining throughout the curriculum without having to make it the entire base of our writing program.

 

I like SWB's ideas, but as part of a bigger picture. I do think there is a place for teaching other kinds of writing. Also, SWB is a gifted teacher: she would naturally know to throw in comments on her dc's weekly history reports on topics that I would not instinctively know to include and need a curric to tell me-things like "don't write in passive voice", "this sentence is awkward", etc.

 

Like OhE, I want some type of structured curric for at least part of what we are doing, just to feel that we are progressing and hitting topics/areas that I would NOT think of on my own.

 

I also think it can depend on the particular child too-some will like or need or do well with the structure that IEW/SWB give, others will be anxious to explore other areas of writing too.

 

OhE-I did print out Lori D's link to SWB-love it! And Colleen, I will also check out her lit analysis lecture.

 

I have read a ton of Julie Bogart's blog, etc.-I love her approach, almost ordered Writer's Jungle. But again, it all boils down to needing specifics on how to *teach* writing-what am I looking for in her writing to help her make it better? And how can I make that PRACTICAL in my day to day homeschool-broken down into smaller chunks. I think there is a real need for homeschool curricula that helps a mother/father with this! (From the ones I have seen, WriteShop and Jump In come as close as I have seen to offering the most help on specifics, plus rubrics, etc.)

 

Great discussion! Off to look at 6-Trait Writing!

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Yes, this is our problem. As I thought about "cementing skills" last night, I realized I am good with where we are on writing/rewriting from outlines. Dd has done IEW for years, almost exclusively-started in 1st grade with some light KWOs from fairy tales, and then did IEW in 2nd grade-present. Her eyes are glazing over, she is not progressing, and she is desperate to branch out! She is pretty good with creative writing, so I don't want to concentrate as much on that right now. But she'll be doing some co-op classes next year that she will need to know how to put together a good report, and we've never worked on that.

 

We will work more on formal outlining, and occasionally rewriting from them. But as 1togo said, I see formal outlining more as a tool for note-taking/studying/organizing thoughts. I think we can do this with formal outlining throughout the curriculum without having to make it the entire base of our writing program.

 

I like SWB's ideas, but as part of a bigger picture. I do think there is a place for teaching other kinds of writing. Also, SWB is a gifted teacher: she would naturally know to throw in comments on her dc's weekly history reports on topics that I would not instinctively know to include and need a curric to tell me-things like "don't write in passive voice", "this sentence is awkward", etc.

 

Like OhE, I want some type of structured curric for at least part of what we are doing, just to feel that we are progressing and hitting topics/areas that I would NOT think of on my own.

 

I also think it can depend on the particular child too-some will like or need or do well with the structure that IEW/SWB give, others will be anxious to explore other areas of writing too.

 

OhE-I did print out Lori D's link to SWB-love it! And Colleen, I will also check out her lit analysis lecture.

 

I have read a ton of Julie Bogart's blog, etc.-I love her approach, almost ordered Writer's Jungle. But again, it all boils down to needing specifics on how to *teach* writing-what am I looking for in her writing to help her make it better? And how can I make that PRACTICAL in my day to day homeschool-broken down into smaller chunks. I think there is a real need for homeschool curricula that helps a mother/father with this! (From the ones I have seen, WriteShop and Jump In come as close as I have seen to offering the most help on specifics, plus rubrics, etc.)

 

Great discussion! Off to look at 6-Trait Writing!

 

I have one suggestion for you: perhaps you could call a junior high or high school near you, private or public, and ask to leave a message for a teacher who is known for teaching writing well. Ask to meet with that person (offer to pay for their time) and ask some questions. You could ask about books and programs, you could ask to bring in one of your dd's papers and have the teacher go over it with you as he or she would in an ideal school world where there are leisurely conferences and discussions about writing, have the teacher help you make a checklist of things to watch for, another list of skills to build on to, etc.

 

I also have on my computer a two-paged, single-spaced checklist that dd's private school handed out in English class last year. She left the school in short order, in large part because the way writing was taught went totally against her own grain and was pitched toward reluctant writers rather than eager ones. For each paper, they had the kids go over this list before they turned it in.

 

I loathe the list, because I don't think 8th grade is the place for such a long, detailed, and pressurized list THE WAY IT WAS USED IN THE CLASSROOM (not that it's a bad list in and of itself). What I would do is pick a few things from it to focus on for a couple of papers, then move to a few others, etc. Please don't use it all at once! I don't know whether I can link to the document itself here and I've had trouble doing it in the PM format too, but if you would like to see it, send me your regular email address by PM and I'll get it off to you.

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I have posted about this several times, but the person who helped me understand how to mentor our children's writing was Julie Bogart. I don't use her freewrite-to-polished-piece method of writing instruction, but I simply had no idea how to help our children with their tangled and jumbled writing before working with Julie. I could only see the grammar and spelling errors, the incorrect verb tenses, etc. After several classes with Julie, I was able to work with any writing curriculum (or none at times). Julie advocates working on one thing at a time during the editing process. We are developing a Writer's Notebook that dd uses for editing. She first looks for verb errors, which she learned from LTW elocution. Then, she works on synonyms for "said" if the piece is fiction. Next, she checks for sentence variety. As I teach a new technique, we add to the notebook by putting the technique with a page number in the Table of Contents and an example in the body of the notebook. Many of the techniques are becoming a natural part of dd's writing as she repeatedly uses them.

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Happy, are you getting the samples for the next level of SWB's writing book? They just sent out the 2nd installment, and it's sort of fascinating. It gets into babysteps of rhetoric, which is somewhere the ps's just are never going to go, simply because the students won't get there. And I think what you're really saying is what do you do when a student can get EASILY the early skills but isn't ready to take them all the way to the point of rhetoric and application? SWB's new stuff is bridging that gap. Lost Tools would, from what I've seen.

 

I think the materials from Lori's post would do exactly what you're saying. She referenced a series of 4 or 5 different workbooks, each on a different type of paragraphing. And she had a link for Ready, Set, Revise. Did you look at that yet? I ordered it. You can use it much like Karen is saying, starting with one concept and playing with it. Sounds like that's how Lori used it too. (1-2 sentences as a warm-up) She had another book on lit terms (Figuratively Speaking?) that she recommended too that would be similar in usage, giving you something to start with and apply chunks at a time. I think you're totally correct that we can teach once we figure out what we're teaching. It's just most of us didn't learn writing worth two cents, especially not rhetoric and these more elusive things. So we'll be great at this, in hindsite, lol.

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PMed you, KarenAnne, thanks! I think I can do a combo of what you and 1togo said-1togo mentioned the Writer's Notebook. (1togo-I am exactly where you were-I don't know what to look for beyond spelling and grammar.) I think part of what we can do is use a checklist format to introduce one new thing at a time and put it in the notebook and then try to start adding that to the writing after we've discussed it.

 

WriteShop (which I plan to cherry pick from) kind of does this, and actually IEW does too. They talk about a new thing to watch for or a new dress-up, etc., and then it gets added to the rubric/checklist to include from then on. So I'm formulating a plan to use probably a combo of WriteShop/Jump In, and on the side have our Writer's Notebook that I purposely add one new aspect per week (avoid passive voice, etc.) for her to look for in her editing of her papers.

 

OhE-I just went back and looked at Ready, Set, Revise-LOVE it. It even gets into plot development-you don't see that very often! This book would help with both her own writing and even some lit analysis, I think. And I could easily incorporate this into my above approach. We have and love Figuratively Speaking-we work on one new term per week. Every classical student should use this resource! I just got the new SWB-need to look at it and see if it's going in a direction I want. And I was just saying to someone that LTW needs to fix their website-so vague-I can't figure out what it's all about and it just looks complicated. Yes, once I teach this writing once, I will have it nailed. Just like teaching math to younger ds is a breeze now after trying every curric out there and therefore actually learning how to *teach* math to older dd!

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Happy, I think the only logical solution is for you to come to the Cincy convention and hear them speak about Lost Tools. That way we can hang out and meet. :) Or if you don't want to do that, the sister conventions the Cincy people are putting on are going to have Andrew Kern, the great one himself.

 

Glad you like the looks of RSR! Mine is on its way. I think it will be good.

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As I thought about "cementing skills" last night, I realized I am good with where we are on writing/rewriting from outlines. .......she will need to know how to put together a good report, and we've never worked on that.

 

I may be reading this wrong, but the above two sections that I separated with dots (I don't know what they are called) seem contradictory to me. I see the outlining/rewriting from outline process as a significant part of the teaching on how to put together a good report.

 

I would not instinctively know to include and need a curric to tell me-things like "don't write in passive voice", "this sentence is awkward", etc.

 

I can't wait until Writing With Skill comes out, because I'm SURE there will be things in it that I am not thinking of while teaching ds. I never learned how to write in school - everything I am doing is being learned through WTM/lectures/posters here. So, my way of coping with what you wrote above is to try to keep in mind all the things we are learning so far in R&S grammar. Once upon a time, I tried to write up flashcards of grammar terms and definitions, and grammar rules, and to have ds memorize them. And I'd keep "writing tip" flashcards (from R&S writing lessons) on hand for him to refer to when writing a narration a few years ago. It was too much. I find that he absorbs the concepts pretty easily, though, and of course R&S is very repetitive over the years, so things really sink in. So anyway, because I am learning along with him, I have grammar concepts slowly sinking into my mind, and am able to "catch" most grammar/punctuation mistakes to go over with him when it's time to edit.

 

If something hasn't been introduced yet in R&S, I don't edit for it. Your passive voice example is perfect. I think we came across that for the first time this year in grade 7 (or maybe last year). I knew somehow that it was a good guideline for writing, but I didn't hold him accountable for that yet, because he hadn't encountered that yet. I didn't want to try to explain it to him prematurely, because R&S explains things like that far better than I do!

 

Awkward sentence - that's where diagraming comes in handy. You can use diagraming to fix sentences. And again, when I encounter this, I have ds diagram it and it ends up being a mini-discussion that reinforces his grammar knowledge as he untangles the knot. And diagraming covers a multitude of grammar concepts. Sometimes I've had to have ds simplify his sentence, just because neither of us had a clue what was wrong - I just figure it was a problem of something we hadn't come across yet. So we make it into a sentence with concepts we know. :D

 

Anyway, all that to say that keeping a mental list of grammar/mechanical things learned already, plus diagraming, helps non-writerly experienced me to help my son.

 

it all boils down to needing specifics on how to *teach* writing-what am I looking for in her writing to help her make it better? And how can I make that PRACTICAL in my day to day homeschool-broken down into smaller chunks.

 

But I will be relieved when WWS comes out. :D And for my more creative-writing oriented dd, I'm thinking WWS plus more emphasis on those creative R&S writing lessons than I've had for my son. She would love it a lot more.

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When you did the Duggars at Cincy thread, I immediately googled to see just how far it actually is to Cincy-um, no, can't do it! I'd have to fly, and that plus the hotel would put it WAY out of my budget. But I would give anything to be there :( The BEST speakers-you are so lucky!!!!

 

Funny you say that; dh is sitting next to me on his computer and after I just PMed you back a half-hour ago, I was telling him how I've "known" this lady on my wtm forum for SO long and we've always had so much in common with our daughters and I wish we could meet! :)

 

UPDATE: Oh, wait, I just mentioned this to dh and he said to look into it, maybe we could come as a family with him driving. But it is ten hours each way-I can't see doing that with my bad back.

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Colleen- I see what you mean about the rewriting from outline being considered report writing.

 

I think your middle two paragraphs above in red speak to the plan I'm formulating to have a checklist/Writer's Notebook to make sure we cover those things, and then make sure she is using them in writing. You are doing a similar thing using R+S as your checklist/Writer's Notebook for progression of skills!

 

I agree with you on the diagramming helping sentence structure-doing R+S 5 this yr-our first time with diagramming; hoping it will be good fodder for discussion/evaluation during writing.

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Happy, did you see the Cincy people are organizing *4* conventions this year? Maybe another is closer to you? Seriously, it would totally be worth the cost to go to whichever is closest. The Cincy will probably be the biggest (as it's the first year for the others), but they'll all be good. 10 hours is a long drive, but it's not un-doable. You might be able to room with someone to get down the cost. For the cost of gas, might be cheaper to fly.

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Oh Happy, I'm so tired my brain is getting foggy. The titles were really obvious and probably hyper-linked, meaning you could miss them: Narrative Writing, Persuasive Writing, Expository Writing, etc.

 

And how are the prices? Seems to me the prices shouldn't be too bad. It's not around a holiday or anything.

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Colleen- I see what you mean about the rewriting from outline being considered report writing.

 

Phew, I was hoping you wouldn't take that wrong! :D I just thought I wasn't understanding something.

 

I think your middle two paragraphs above in red speak to the plan I'm formulating to have a checklist/Writer's Notebook to make sure we cover those things, and then make sure she is using them in writing. You are doing a similar thing using R+S as your checklist/Writer's Notebook for progression of skills!

 

I agree with you on the diagramming helping sentence structure-doing R+S 5 this yr-our first time with diagramming; hoping it will be good fodder for discussion/evaluation during writing.

 

I guess I didn't clue in very well to what you are already doing - sorry about that! And just know I'm right there with you in the general "I think I know what I'm doing, but I'm still shaky on the daily how to carry this out" bit. I still get afraid I am missing something.

 

Colleen-I was just reading through the newest edition of the WWS beta test, and I can definitely start to better visualize how rewriting from the outline can work as an actual report. The way she has it, it is a different animal from rewriting from a KWO like in IEW.

 

I so wish I had signed up for that testing. I'm sure now there are things in WWS that I will have to back track on. Oh well. I'm doing my best, as we all are. I keep telling myself that what I *am* doing is still FAR better than what I ever had in school.

 

I'd briefly thought about going to the Philly convention, too.......

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I keep telling myself that what I *am* doing is still FAR better than what I ever had in school.

 

I'd briefly thought about going to the Philly convention, too.......

 

I often comfort myself with that thought-and that whatever I do, the Lord can bless and prosper and multiply my efforts.

 

Don't worry about not doing the beta test. It is very meaty-except for the outlining it is getting into rhetoric stuff on a basic level-will not hurt you or be backtracking much to do it a year later.

 

Want to room together in Philly to save $$? Could you get away for the whole time? Dh said he will take the days off work to watch the dc so I can go. He said he is budgeting from now to pay for it. :001_tt1:

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I'm sorry -- I was afraid it would come across like that. But the main point that both SWB and I are making is that you don't need a book with a whole different bunch of essay and report types to run through and cross off your check list. For the logic stage, it's sufficient if they keep focusing on summarizing main points and learning how to differentiate main points from supporting evidence, can write a coherent paragraph, and discuss what they read. SWB is concerned with making sure that grammatical correctness is automatic by high school. I have only taught my one dd, who was born wired with that, so I am more concerned with meeting her need for diverging from the conventional and exploring multiple genres. But that is not necessary for a kid who just needs to learn how to write for school purposes and doesn't have the writing bug.

 

What a kid needs by the end of high school, SWB spells out in her rhetoric stage sections of her book and her lectures. Basically they need to be able to write up a procedure, like a science experiment for instance, with accuracy and precision. They need to know how to write some kind of explanatory essay, and how to make and support an argument. That's it. If they have those things down cold, they're good to go for college.

 

All the rest -- the playing around and experimenting with diction, different options for livening up an essay, etc. -- are icing on the cake, and can certainly be developed in a good college freshman writing class, or even in later courses with a professor who has a good editorial eye and is willing to help students revise (and many are). My own dd just happens to really like doing this sort of thing and I wondered from your original post where you talked about teaching creative writing whether your child had a similar bent; and I was throwing out a lot of ideas with this in mind.

 

There's certainly no need to panic in the logic stage. It's sort of like math, in a way: you want kids to be able to flip around fractions, decimals, and percentages with ease, to make fairly accurate estimates in their heads, and to understand how to think about problems in a few different ways before they go into algebra. You want them to have algebra really, truly mastered before you send them into calculus. This doesn't mean they can't break out of the lock-step curriculum and play with more advanced concepts "out of sequence" or before the textbook introduces them. It doesn't even mean, for every kid, that the basics MUST be absolutely mastered before they work on advanced concepts. It's just a general rule of thumb.

 

SWB, to my mind, approaches writing in a similar way. She wants kids to have the basics of correct grammar and syntax down cold before they take on larger writing projects. She wants them to have a lot of experience talking and writing about main ideas and supporting ideas before they attempt to reproduce this type of thing in their own writing. This doesn't mean that every kid needs to follow the program she lays out and shouldn't mix up the stages or steps ever. It's a road map, the kind of overall map you're talking about needing. The logic stage is a reinforcement stage; it doesn't introduce anything radically new in terms of writing, and I can see where for some people it might seem like you're in a holding pattern and not moving forward. Some kids would be ready to move beyond that much earlier. But in general, it's like working on your fractions and decimals until you can do them backwards and forwards without having to stop and think it through every time you encounter them, so that when you need to deal with them as one step in a multi-step problem, you won't bog down. Same thing with the narration and outlining and discussion.

 

However, if you have a "natural" writer, or if your instincts are telling you that you want to do more exploration of different ways of writing, and would like to address or incorporate more creative formats and genres, etc. -- take a look at Nancy Atwell's book In the Middle: New Understandings About Writing, Reading, and Learning. Atwell is the guru of a very different model of writing instruction and it might be interesting or useful for you to compare what she says with TWTM.

 

Thank you for posting! :)

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Want to room together in Philly to save $$? Could you get away for the whole time? Dh said he will take the days off work to watch the dc so I can go. He said he is budgeting from now to pay for it. :001_tt1:

 

Wouldn't I love to go!! I probably won't be able to, though. Flying - I flew to the WTM 10th Anniversary conference last year - first conf. I ever went to and worth every penny to get there. But it was a big chunk for us (the conf. itself was a DEAL, though - $40 for two jam packed session days!!!!), and I don't think I can do that again. I wish we had stuff like this in Maritime Canada. My family could drive to Philly - I have lots of old friends and family all up and down the East Coast - but we can't really travel until August when dh has hardly any work. Oh well, I'll have to read about it here. I'm glad it's suddenly working out for you to go, though!

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Yes, Cincy would have been $$ for me. Even Philly, with driving, will be more than I'd like to spend.

 

I haven't been to a conference in years though-stopped going because I didn't need more, rah, rah, you should homeschool your kids. I need practical help, like many others, and I'm so glad the conference leaders are hearing us on that!

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