Is there a good alternative to Kingfisher?

[Roxy Roller]

I am considering switching to the SWB/WTM method of history and literature for next year. We will be starting the Middle Ages.

 

I have the new red Kingfisher and I just bought the older white Kingfisher off of Ebay. I have to say that I am not overly impressed with them. They are okay, but I think my DD needs a more narrative form. She is also a young 11YO, and quite sensitive, so she is not ready for Streams of Civilization(which I own, and after looking at it, I find it has a little more mature content than she is ready for). In SWB's lectures, she states that SOTW 1 and 2 are not easy to outline from, and that SOTW 3 and 4 would lend themselves more to outlining. I need something a little more advanced than SOTW 2 to use with her, although I will probably use it with the boys. I want something that she can outline from. I have the ABEKA 7th Grade History of the World textbook, but I think it moves too fast and is really factual with no narrative. I also have Christian Schools International - Story of the Old World, which I am leaning towards using, because it is slightly more narrative, but it is still a textbook.

 

Are there any other alternatives I need to look at?

[regentrude]

We found Kingfisher not really suitable for outlining, because there is too little information in the paragraphs - my kids was basically copying everything. So we ditched outlining and substituted free-form note-taking.

 

We are using Universal History of the World by Golden Press, which is an old book series of several volumes, probably out of print (we are getting ours used). Much more narrative and detailed, less fragmented.

[Rhondabee]

What I did for my oldest, since he had not had SOTW in 1st-4th grades, was use the "white" Kingfisher as an introduction to the SOTW chapter. (I guess you could say the SOTW-AG was my spine - LOL! - since I usually found the corresponding KIHW pages in there. Be careful, though, there are a few errors.)

 

So, each week he started by outlining from the "white" Kingfisher, copied the map from Kingfisher (and the timeline from the "red" Kingfisher), then read the SOTW story or stories, wrote summaries of those, then did any extra reading from the library. He enjoyed it, and he remembers so much. He's doing World History this year in 10th grade, and it is *all* review!

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you needn't choose just *one* source. The Kingfisher served it's purpose, as did SOTW. And, yes, there was overlap - but it's always good to have more than one source in history.

 

hth!

Rhonda

 

I am considering switching to the SWB/WTM method of history and literature for next year. We will be starting the Middle Ages.

 

I have the new red Kingfisher and I just bought the older white Kingfisher off of Ebay. I have to say that I am not overly impressed with them. They are okay, but I think my DD needs a more narrative form. She is also a young 11YO, and quite sensitive, so she is not ready for Streams of Civilization(which I own, and after looking at it, I find it has a little more mature content than she is ready for). In SWB's lectures, she states that SOTW 1 and 2 are not easy to outline from, and that SOTW 3 and 4 would lend themselves more to outlining. I need something a little more advanced than SOTW 2 to use with her, although I will probably use it with the boys. I want something that she can outline from. I have the ABEKA 7th Grade History of the World textbook, but I think it moves too fast and is really factual with no narrative. I also have Christian Schools International - Story of the Old World, which I am leaning towards using, because it is slightly more narrative, but it is still a textbook.

 

Are there any other alternatives I need to look at?

[AngelBee]

Having an issue with outlining from KF too.

[Roxy Roller]

We found Kingfisher not really suitable for outlining, because there is too little information in the paragraphs - my kids was basically copying everything. So we ditched outlining and substituted free-form note-taking.

 

We are using Universal History of the World by Golden Press, which is an old book series of several volumes, probably out of print (we are getting ours used). Much more narrative and detailed, less fragmented.

 

I agree that I there is not enough information in the Kingfisher for outlining purposes.

 

I will have to look into the Golden Press books. I have an old Golden Press Children's Bible that my husband used when he was young and it surpasses all of the other children's bibles I have looked at. I go to it time and time again.

[Capt_Uhura]

There is the K12 Human Odyssey which you can find used at Amazon as well as the World in Ancient Times Series. I think your library would have them.

[siloam]

My oldest is going to use the Nothing New Press version of H.A. Guerber texts for the next several years.

 

Heather

[redsquirrel]

Useborne internet linked is also recomended for this age.

 

I am in year 1, ancient history, and we are finding the Kingfisher book "The Kingfisher Book of the Ancient world" to be a great resource. It has chapters that correspond to SOTW almost every week. We use it for the "list of facts' part of the week. Might there be a middle ages only type of book? Even by a different publisher?

 

It is nice that it corresponds to SOTW because we also have little brother in year 1. So, big brother might listen in on the SOTW and then have his own work to do on the same subject. My boys are very close and they enjoy doing the same thing in school. It's a bit of a challenge because they are 5 years apart in age.

 

For outlinine we use K12 Human Odyssey or a book from the library on a related topic.

 

I also use those Oxford history books from our public library. They are great for outlining. I know they have a "Medieval and Early Modern World" series.

[Roxy Roller]

Useborne internet linked is also recomended for this age.

 

I am in year 1, ancient history, and we are finding the Kingfisher book "The Kingfisher Book of the Ancient world" to be a great resource.

 

I also use those Oxford history books from our public library. They are great for outlining. I know they have a "Medieval and Early Modern World" series.

 

:iagree:I am also using the Kingfisher Ancient World book with TOG this year. I haven't looked to see if they have a Middle Ages equivalent.

 

I will have to look into the Oxford history books.

[Roxy Roller]

There is the K12 Human Odyssey which you can find used at Amazon as well as the World in Ancient Times Series. I think your library would have them.

 

Now that you mention it, I remember that people here were recommending the World in Ancient Times series. I think I have one on my bookshelves, from a library sale, although I know it isn't the middle ages. I will have to take at it to see if it is written in an engaging manner that we can outline from.

 

I will also look into K12 Human Odyssey.

[Roxy Roller]

My oldest is going to use the Nothing New Press version of H.A. Guerber texts for the next several years.

 

Heather

 

I am using the Guerber Ancient Times book with TOG, when it fits, but I am not sure I want to continue with it.

[HollyDay]

I prefer Usborne books to Kingfisher

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I am considering switching to the SWB/WTM method of history and literature for next year. We will be starting the Middle Ages.

 

I have the new red Kingfisher and I just bought the older white Kingfisher off of Ebay. I have to say that I am not overly impressed with them. They are okay, but I think my DD needs a more narrative form. She is also a young 11YO, and quite sensitive, so she is not ready for Streams of Civilization(which I own, and after looking at it, I find it has a little more mature content than she is ready for). In SWB's lectures, she states that SOTW 1 and 2 are not easy to outline from, and that SOTW 3 and 4 would lend themselves more to outlining. I need something a little more advanced than SOTW 2 to use with her, although I will probably use it with the boys. I want something that she can outline from. I have the ABEKA 7th Grade History of the World textbook, but I think it moves too fast and is really factual with no narrative. I also have Christian Schools International - Story of the Old World, which I am leaning towards using, because it is slightly more narrative, but it is still a textbook.

 

Are there any other alternatives I need to look at?

 

We have a book for middle ages that might work, The Middle Ages: A Watts Guide for Children by Jordan. It is laid out more as an encyclopedia, with entries on various topics arranged alphabetically.

 

It seems to be out of print but used copies look reasonable. This is a paperback book about the size of a topical Usborne Internet Linked book (like Interlinked Romans, not the big encyclopedias).

 

NB: One of the reviewers were put off by the fact that this isn't a Christian book. There are several articles that reference Islam or Islamic figures in a historical way (ex Saladdin). I didn't think that it glorified one religion over another. I bought the book a few years ago from Veritas Press.

[EKS]

I highly recommend K12's Human Odyssey series for middle school. It weaves an extremely coherent narrative.

[Elizabeth in MN]

What I ended up doing with my 10 year old DD is putting the SOTW CDs on her iPod and having her listen to a chapter on Monday. One Wednesday she reads Kingfisher and Friday she does map work from the activity guide. I don't do the outlining because she can do that later on, I still want this to be fun (outlining would not be fun to her).

[Colleen in NS]

I guess what I'm saying is that you needn't choose just *one* source. The Kingfisher served it's purpose, as did SOTW. And, yes, there was overlap - but it's always good to have more than one source in history.

 

:iagree:

 

Another idea is that you could have your daughter use either the red or the white KF as a spine - pick what you think she'd like best - my thinking is you've got two spines already, put 'em to some use, just to get the basic facts, even if it's not terribly narrative. And then have her pick topics/people/events, from that spine, that interest her, and find further reading for her (library books, World Book encyclopedia articles, etc.). Let her practice her outlining skills on this extra reading, instead of from the "spine." Doing it this way here has made history a lot more interesting, and the outlining skills are being learned at the same time. Outlining causes my son to really dig into the reading, which is the whole point.

[funschooler5]

Another vote for K12 Human Odyssey. We tried to outline from Kingfisher, but it was extremely difficult for my DD (and me). Human Odyssey has been so much easier to follow and outline from!

[cheryl h]

We are using MOH vol.2 for this time period, and also have the Kingfisher, which has proved to be 'not enough' and definitely not condusive to outlining. In addition to the Kingfisher, we also use The Story of Christianity by DK. All three of these books are not great for outlining, so we have had to seek either library selections or topics from the encyclopedia to do an outline for history. For history we are mostly focussing on narrations and notetaking. We do very few outlines for history, mostly for science, but we will probably start doing more outlining in history in future years.

[Arch at Home]

We are currently using The World in Ancient Times series. My daughter finds it interesting and the ability to focus on a specific area of the world interested her even more so since I let her choose. The chapters are of appropriate length and density of information to outline.

[mazakaal]

I am also using the Kingfisher Ancient World book with TOG this year. I haven't looked to see if they have a Middle Ages equivalent.

 

 

I'm having ds outline from Kingfisher Ancient World. It's not quite as difficult as the main Kingfisher books, imo, but still not ideal. I've not been able to find a true Middle Ages equivalent. They have a book, but it's really just focused on knights and castles, from the look of it.

 

I've been looking at the DK History: The Definative Visual Guide for outlining next year. I'd like to look more at K12 Human Odyssey as well.

[1Togo]

Also, you do not need to use Kingfisher, DK or textbooks for outlining. In WTM, SWB describes the process of outlining and does not use any of those books. She uses a typical non-fiction book from the library, and she mentions ditching the source if it doesn't work. Assessing the resource is part of the process. So, you can pick the topics you want to study, get a library book, and outline a portion of it. That's what we are doing this year, and it's going well. At this point, I am working with dd on this, but she is steadily improving. Using a variety of sources helps her assess the writing style/quality of various writers. BTW, I've seen many families ditch the entire outlining sequence because their children detested outlining Kingfisher day after day. I would not feel bound to any resource.

 

I always found outlining difficult to teach until we began using SWB's two leading questions. After dd develops the topic sentence from those questions, it's easy to read through a paragraph sentence by sentence, and decide if the information supports the topic. After the student learns the process, they can use it with any book; i.e. non-fiction, the Bible, etc. I also have dd use her outlines for oral presentations.

Edited December 1, 2010 by 1Togo

[Roxy Roller]

Assessing the resource is part of the process. So, you can pick the topics you want to study, get a library book, and outline a portion of it.

 

:iagree:I have come to this very conclusion. I guess I was just wanting 'open and go'.

 

 

Using a variety of sources helps her assess the writing style/quality of various writers.

 

:iagree:This is the part of SWB's logic stage writing, that I had a problem with. If a child outlines from Kingfisher/or another text for 4 years, they are basically just learning to outline from one source. Thank you for voicing what I was intuitively thinking.

 

I always found outlining difficult to teach until we began using SWB's two leading questions. After dd develops the topic sentence from those questions, it's easy to read through a paragraph sentence by sentence, and decide if the information supports the topic. After the student learns the process, they can use it with any book; i.e. non-fiction, the Bible, etc. I also have dd use her outlines for oral presentations.

 

I was listening to all of SWB's writing MP3s this past weekend, and I caught the questions for the first time. I also have ordered the new edition of the WTM and I understand it has more about outlining in it than my original version.

 

SWB's take on writing and analysis for history and literature is really resounding with me. I don't want to kill my DC love of learning history and reading literature, by too many questions and analysis. I agree with SWB, where she says that you can kill this love if you are not careful.

[Roxy Roller]

Let her practice her outlining skills on this extra reading, instead of from the "spine."

 

I think this is what I will do, but it is going to take more work on my part.

[Roxy Roller]

...so we have had to seek either library selections or topics from the encyclopedia to do an outline for history.

 

I have realized that I am going to have to do this, I was just hoping for something that was more 'open and go'.

[Roxy Roller]

We are currently using The World in Ancient Times series. My daughter finds it interesting and the ability to focus on a specific area of the world interested her even more so since I let her choose. The chapters are of appropriate length and density of information to outline.

 

I am going to have to look into this set. Thank you!

[Roxy Roller]

I'm having ds outline from Kingfisher Ancient World. It's not quite as difficult as the main Kingfisher books, imo, but still not ideal. I've not been able to find a true Middle Ages equivalent. They have a book, but it's really just focused on knights and castles, from the look of it.

 

I've been looking at the DK History: The Definative Visual Guide for outlining next year. I'd like to look more at K12 Human Odyssey as well.

 

:iagree:The Kingfisher Ancient World book is easier than the red or white Kingfisher books. If you find a true Middle Ages equivalent, please let me know.

 

I will have to look at the DK and K12 books, but I have pretty much come to the conclusion that I will have to search a variety of books and make notes of which passages I want my DD to outline every week. It is a good thing I have thousands of books on my shelves - I love library sales. I was just hoping to have something that was more 'open and go', but I guess there just isn't a 'one size fits all' program for history and lit., and the sooner I get that through my head, I can stop spending my time looking for it.:tongue_smilie:

[Carol in Cal.]

The white Kingfisher book is the easiest one to outline that I have ever seen. It's great to start with, and then the later SOTW books are good for more advanced outlining. But, really, I suggest that you have another look at the white one--I think it's perfect for the first year or so of outlining.

[1Togo]

I know that SWB recommends resources for outlining, and I have never seen them, but I think that outlining, like most aspects of writing, requires input from someone. You can probably use a canned resource to teach the skill, but most students will need handholding when they switch to authentic sources. I saw this with IEW. Mothers would take their students through several theme-based books and even through the dvd programs, but their students would flounder when they used sources from the library. Again, the canned sources were good for teaching the skills, but eventually, I believe the student needs to work with a variety of sources to master the skill. The time it takes for mentoring is the reason we used a streamlined approach for homeschooling during the early years and when our children needed remedial work after p.s. Working with them on language skills took so much time that I couldn't handle lots of hands-on projects, crafts, etc. Many subjects got put on the back burner until our children could work independently.

Edited December 2, 2010 by 1Togo

[Roxy Roller]

I know that SWB recommends resources for outlining, and I have never seen them, but I think that outlining, like most aspects of writing, requires input from someone. You can probably use a canned resource to teach the skill, but most students will need handholding when they switch to authentic sources. I saw this with IEW. Mothers would take their students through several theme-based books and even through the dvd programs, but their students would flounder when they used sources from the library. Again, the canned sources were good for teaching the skills, but eventually, I believe the student needs to work with a variety of sources to own the skill. The time it takes for mentoring is the reason we used a streamlined approach for homeschooling during the early years and when our children needed remedial work after p.s. Working with them on language skills took so much time that I couldn't handle lots of hands-on projects, crafts, etc. Many subjects got put on the back burner until our children could work independently.

 

We are using Remedia's Beginning Outlining and Outlining books this fall and my DD is really enjoying them. She finds it easy. I am transitioning to using my own resources after Christmas and I will start her back at one level outlines and move to two level outlines before the end of this year, so that she is ready for 3 level outlines by next fall.

[Colleen in NS]

I think this is what I will do, but it is going to take more work on my part.

 

I think I hear you about the desire for something "open and go." When I first bought the red KF and started trying to teach outlining to ds in grade 5, my mindset was "We are outlining and studying history from this one book, and supplementing with extra reading." The focus was on processing as much history as possible via writing. And then I quickly realized the red KF wasn't going to work, and somewhere here I got the idea for outlining from other books. This sounded easier and more interesting to me (and for ds), and then my mindset changed to "We are reading a basic book about history (KF), getting supplementary interesting library books that are related to those topics, and we are practicing writing skills on *some* of this material, but we don't have to outline everything." So, I might have outlining scheduled for three days per week, say, and one or two of those days I might have ds outline from one of the history library books or WB encyclopedia article (we got a free set). The other "outlining" days I might have him outline for science. So, he reads through the KF regularly, and he outlines regularly, but he doesn't always outline history each week (and definitely not from KF). (He does still mark things from KF on a timeline, and he does the new MapQuest maps from Knowledge Quest) Anyway, all that to say that it might seem at first like more work for you, but if you are the type of family to always be getting supplemental library books anyway, or if you have some good encyclopedias lying around, you just have to say, "Time to do an outline! Let's grab an interesting library book, you find a section that interested you, and I'll pick some paragraphs for you to outline." I love doing it this way - there is WAY more variety in material, it's interesting to my kids, they still move chronologically through history, they get to pick what to write about, and they get to evaluate/imitate different authors, like 1Togo said.

 

I have to also say that I used to try really hard to make sure I had a variety of supplemental library books in the house, the week or two before the latest page spreads would be read. I have slacked on this. But still, every few weeks, I will go through SOTW (for dd) and KF and put a boatload of books on hold at the library. When they come, we read and outline. I don't care so much anymore if the outline is from supplemental material related to what he already had read about in KF two weeks ago. That is the part that was too much work for me, trying to align everything perfectly. I haven't seen that it has been detrimental to his overall understanding of the flow of history. And besides, putting things on his timeline also helps put the things he is reading about in order.

 

We are using Remedia's Beginning Outlining and Outlining books this fall and my DD is really enjoying them. She finds it easy. I am transitioning to using my own resources after Christmas and I will start her back at one level outlines and move to two level outlines before the end of this year, so that she is ready for 3 level outlines by next fall.

 

I hope you'll like the new outlining instructions in the new WTM. On the logic stage audio lecture, SWB only mentions the questions for one-level outlining. There are more (two more, designed to help you continue think through the paragraph) of what I call "universal questions" in the new WTM, and they were SO helpful to me in helping ds understand how to tackle each paragraph. I had explained to him what outlining was, he got that, but the process of taking it apart was MUCH harder. It was easy to follow R&S's outlining instructions, and to fill in the blanks in their exercises, but when it came to applying that knowledge to real books, nope. Those WTM questions are printed out now and taped to the wall by my computer, so ds can refer to them each time he outlines. He is getting to where he doesn't really need them anymore, yay!

 

Good luck!

[Roxy Roller]

I hope you'll like the new outlining instructions in the new WTM. On the logic stage audio lecture, SWB only mentions the questions for one-level outlining. There are more (two more, designed to help you continue think through the paragraph) of what I call "universal questions" in the new WTM, and they were SO helpful to me in helping ds understand how to tackle each paragraph. I had explained to him what outlining was, he got that, but the process of taking it apart was MUCH harder. It was easy to follow R&S's outlining instructions, and to fill in the blanks in their exercises, but when it came to applying that knowledge to real books, nope. Those WTM questions are printed out now and taped to the wall by my computer, so ds can refer to them each time he outlines. He is getting to where he doesn't really need them anymore, yay!

 

Good luck!

 

I just picked up my Amazon order from the post office last night, so hopefully I will be able to get take a look at my new WTM this weekend. I am looking forward to reading and digesting the new outline section. I like the idea of having a handy copy of the questions for my DD to refer to. I am hoping that by the end of this year, she will have really internalized this process.

 

I also like the idea of the child picking the topic to outline from each week. I allow my DC to pick the topic from the week that they do their summaries from - what most interested them from all of our reading, since we do so much. I don't make them summarize everything. We all know that our DC will learn more if they are interested in the information.

[Capt_Uhura]

And then I quickly realized the red KF wasn't going to work, and somewhere here I got the idea for outlining from other books. This sounded easier and more interesting to me (and for ds), and then my mindset changed to "We are reading a basic book about history (KF), getting supplementary interesting library books that are related to those topics, and we are practicing writing skills on *some* of this material, but we don't have to outline everything." So, I might have outlining scheduled for three days per week, say, and one or two of those days I might have ds outline from one of the history library books or WB encyclopedia article (we got a free set). The other "outlining" days I might have him outline for science. So, he reads through the KF regularly, and he outlines regularly, but he doesn't always outline history each week (and definitely not from KF).

 

I think SWB says to outline from other books in WTM2009.

 

I think I've settled on what I think Colleen is talking about. We will use Kingfisher as the spine for dates, facts then go to other books. Our main spine for the "other" book is K12 Human Odyssey, supplementing that with World in Ancient Times. As 1TOGo suggested, we're working through outlining that together. The Remedia outlining books are so easy....but when it comes to "real" material, it is definitely a horse of a different color.

 

I'm seeing outlining now not as a chronological history note taking, but a way of seeing how paragraphs are constructed. So one day we might outline history, the next science, a history book from a subject DS is interested in.

 

Capt_Uhura

[Roxy Roller]

I think SWB says to outline from other books in WTM2009.

 

The Remedia outlining books are so easy....but when it comes to "real" material, it is definitely a horse of a different color.

 

I'm seeing outlining now not as a chronological history note taking, but a way of seeing how paragraphs are constructed. So one day we might outline history, the next science, a history book from a subject DS is interested in.

 

Capt_Uhura

 

:iagree:Okay, I did check the outlining section in the new WTM, and it does say to outline from your 'extra' resources. I have the original WTM and I am sure that it said outline from the Kingfisher, so this is why I was a little confused and concerned. I did not want to have my DD outline from just one source/style.

 

I agree, the Remedia books are easy, and my DD thinks so too. They have been a great start to outlining, and I think my DD will have a confidence to tackle other material. After Christmas, we are going to start using different sources from our TOG Y1, and I will have her start back at one level outlines for a while and then move to two level outlines in a couple of months, so that she will be ready for 3 level outlines by the beginning of 7th Grade.

 

In the new WTM, SWB also adds in writing facts from the primary text. So this is what I am thinking I will do with my white Kingfisher.