Can an epic be written in prose?

[Kfamily]

This is a strange question, but dd and I haven't found the answer to it yet. I thought someone here (you know, this forum of brilliant minds...:lol:)might know the answer. My dd would like to write an epic but not in verse or as a poem. We know the technical definition of an epic and the typical examples, but were wondering if there were examples of epics written in prose. I'm sure there could be novels that just include elements of epics...but is that all they are? Are they just novels written like epics? Just curious...

[Lori D.]

Especially due to the great expansion of literary genres and styles of writing in the last 150 years, an epic no longer is defined only as a work written in some sort of poetic structure. While originally most ancient work -- and up into the middle ages -- *was* written in a poetic format, there are a number of prose works over the centuries that would certainly qualify as epics for various reasons:

- Mort d' Arthur

- Njal's Saga

- Don Quixote

- Les Miserables

- Moby Dick

- War and Peace

- The Grapes of Wrath

- Lord of the Rings

 

In this terrific, 1-page article on "Genres" from the Brooklyn College English Dept., we see that if we were to stick strictly to the ancient Greek definitions of literature, ALL forms of fiction (including short stories!) would have to fall in the category of epic, as the other 2 ancient Greek literature genres were drama and lyric poetry.

 

This 1-paragraph definition of "epic" from Wikipedia furthers that idea, that the genre of epic has expanded beyond that of poetry to include other art forms.

 

I would *certainly* encourage your DD to go ahead and write her own epic! Homeschooler Christopher Paolini began his epic 4-book series "Eragon" while a teenager. :) To be a true epic, a work needs to include a substantial number of the conventions that typically are included in an epic. Here are 2 lists to get your DD thinking about which ones would be appropriate for her epic:

- http://research.uvu.edu/mcdonald/britquestions/epic.html

- http://english.tjc.edu/greekromanepic/conventions.htm

 

 

Happy writing! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Kfamily]

Lori D,

Dd and I thank you very much!:001_smile: I let her read your response and she immediately smiled with pleasure and said, " Wow, she really answered my question!" She read through the links quickly before dinner, but is coming back to them. She is thrilled she can do this. She loved the info. about Paolini. We don't have these books, so this might make another good Christmas idea.

 

Thank you!!:001_smile:

[Spy Car]

Not to discourage your daughter from writing epic-length novels, but I'm not convinced works written in prose qualify as "epics" just because they are long, sweeping, heroic, and/or philosophical, or otherwise bear similarities with the epic form.

 

Not even Moby Dick, one of the greatest works of literature ever written (to my mind) would qualify as an "epic", except in the colloquial sense of the word. Although it certainly would in that colloquial sense.

 

Same with motion pictures. Perhaps "epics" in the colloquial sense of the term, not in the literary sense.

 

Epics are written in verse.

 

Bill (traditionalist)

[Kfamily]

Thank you, Bill. I was concerned about this initially. I gather at this point the definition will have its opposing sides.:D (This may make for an interesting thread.) If anything, I might encourage her to write it in prose and next year, after we have spent some time with epics such as The Iliad and The Odyssey as well as time spent on the grammar of poetry, to rewrite it in verse.

[Corraleno]

I agree with Bill on this one. I think there's a difference between "Epic" as a noun (Iliad, Aeneid, Beowulf, etc) and "epic" as an adjective — The Grapes of Wrath may be an epic novel, but I definitely wouldn't consider it "an Epic."

 

I think emulating the style of a true "Epic" would be a valuable part of the project, but it doesn't have to rhyme, or even follow a certain meter. If she skims through a number of different translations of a few true "Epics" she should get a good feel for the style and rhythm. Just breaking the writing into lines, and adding the usual conventions (repeated epithets, etc) would give a more "Epic" feel without being much more work in terms of writing.

 

Here's some Beokitteh (Beowulf in lolcat :lol:) for inspiration:

 

He haded bebe borned aftur,

leetle in litterbox (can has alliterashin!), taht Ceiling Cat

sended to maek teh pplz lol; Ceiling Cat had knowingz

they had no cud has had Ruler Cat

long tiem. HovrCat, aka Hed Boss Cat

pwner of glory, gaved him graet cheezburgrs:

Beokitteh (iz not saem Beokitteh as pome) waz famis

Scyld's kitteh in Scedeland, wharevur taht bes.

Lissen up, srsly: leetle kitteh must be gud kitteh,

give c00l stuffs whan he is young kitteh,

so's his frendz is can be loyil

whan he growz up, whan thar is teh fightingz,

an be c00l to teh pplz an teh kitteh must can b

havin props from all teh kittehs everywhar, rly.

Den Scyld go awei whan Ceiling Cat sed so,

teh ver brave kitteh to teh kitteh baskit in sky.

Teh kittehs broghted him 2 teh waeter

but kittehs NO WANT WAETER but dis kitteh sed WANT

whan he wuz in teh Scylding-cats, rulin em;

he wuz in charge long tiem.

Thar wuz big boat on teh beachez (not failboat)

all icy n stuffs, pimped out liek woah!

Teh kittehs broghted their <3ed Boss Cat,

aka Ring-giving Cat, into teh boat,

an put him by the mast, rly. Thar wuz c00l stuffs

broghted from long wai awai, an purty bukkits.

d00d, wuz bestest ship evar, srsly!!1! and haded

swurds n guns n armors whut u wears 4 teh fightingz,

an mor swurds n sheelds n stuffz.

 

See — easy! :lol:

Jackie

[Kfamily]

:lol: Thanks Jackie! Very fun inspiration!

 

I like your point that trying to eumulate the epic would be a good study in and of itself. We will be studying both The Iliad and The Odyssey next year. We are also studying the grammar of poetry and will be learning how to write/analyze poetry next year. I think both of these combined will help.

[Spy Car]

I gather at this point the definition will have its opposing sides.:D

 

This thread should be different? :D

 

Bill

[Kfamily]

:D

 

 

I just wanted to say, Bill, that I always value your input (as I do everybody's input) even if I don't always agree. I do agree with you here, although I may let dd go about it her own way (this is her own creative, independent writing) until she has had more instruction. I might be able to convince her to rewrite it next year. She feels as if she doesn't know how to write it in verse, which in fairness she doesn't, so I see her point too. She tends to be a perfectionist on some things. (I wish I could get her to be a perfectionist about punctuation...still working on that.:001_smile:.)

 

This certainly is an incentive for me to consider teaching this sooner.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Not to discourage your daughter from writing epic-length novels, but I'm not convinced works written in prose qualify as "epics" just because they are long, sweeping, heroic, and/or philosophical, or otherwise bear similarities with the epic form.

 

Not even Moby Dick, one of the greatest works of literature ever written (to my mind) would qualify as an "epic", except in the colloquial sense of the word. Although it certainly would in that colloquial sense.

 

Same with motion pictures. Perhaps "epics" in the colloquial sense of the term, not in the literary sense.

 

Epics are written in verse.

 

Bill (traditionalist)

 

I can only go about half way to agreeing with Bill (what's new). I think that an epic does have a sense of sweeping language that moves it beyond just being a long work. I initially was going to go with a definition that mentioned quest and hero/villain as you might see in Campbell's writing on The Hero with a Thousand Faces. But I then thought of a number of quest novels that I don't think are epics. (I enjoyed the book The Writer's Journey by Vogler about using Cambell's quest story arch.)

 

The stumbling block I have to defining epic as verse only forms is that so often they were verse in the original only, but are not read in verse form in translation. But I think that they remain epic. Also several of them rely on forms like kennings, alliteration and metaphor rather than the rhyming that sounds like verse to western ears.

 

Maybe it's just that I've been listening to a set of lectures on LOTR and have trouble at the moment with a definition of epic that excludes LOTR, which does have incredible attention to detail in language, but is not in verse.

[Spy Car]

:D

 

 

I just wanted to say, Bill, that I always value your input (as I do everybody's input) even if I don't always agree. I do agree with you here, although I may let dd go about it her own way (this is her own creative, independent writing) until she has had more instruction. I might be able to convince her to rewrite it next year. She feels as if she doesn't know how to write it in verse, which in fairness she doesn't, so I see her point too. She tends to be a perfectionist on some things. (I wish I could get her to be a perfectionist about punctuation...still working on that.:001_smile:.)

 

This certainly is an incentive for me to consider teaching this sooner.

 

In your shoes, I'd keep my mouth shut :D

 

Say, she's not reading this thread, is she? :tongue_smilie:

 

Adjective, noun, whatever. I'd be very proud and encouraging of a child who desired to write an epic-novel in prose form. She would be in some pretty fine literary company however one defines the genre.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Does this require rhyming?

 

Certainly not. I a great fan of the Epic poems of Robinson Jeffers. He did not use a rhyming scheme, but did master the Epic form. Jeffers' themes and stories were often unfit for young ears or the sensitive of nature, but there was a genius at work. No rhymes.

 

Bill

[Kfamily]

Bill, no worries, I printed the links Lori D gave me and gave them to her to keep, so she isn't reading this thread anymore.

 

Thank you!:001_smile:

 

Sebastian (a lady), thank you. You've given me more to consider. Dd is in a Tolkien fever (LOTR) right now, so I think this is inspiring both of my girls immensely!

[Ester Maria]

No, it cannot.

[Farrar]

If an epic must be in poetry, does that mean that Le Mort d'Arthur, which I always learned was an epic, is not one?

 

What if you read something in prose translation, such as The Epic of Gilgamesh or The Odyssey - both of which have respected translations that are rendered in prose. Does that eliminate the epic-ness of it?

 

If there is something like The Lord of the Rings, which is epic in every quality except poetry, what do we call it?

[Ester Maria]

If an epic must be in poetry, does that mean that Le Mort d'Arthur, which I always learned was an epic, is not one?

Far from an epic indeed: it's a compilation of romance tales.

What if you read something in prose translation, such as The Epic of Gilgamesh or The Odyssey - both of which have respected translations that are rendered in prose. Does that eliminate the epic-ness of it?

Prose "translations" are essentially retellings. They may be very close retellings, but if they negate the formal aspects of the work (and metrics is pretty darn fundamental to Homeric epics, for example), they're far from the ideal translations. Which is another reason why poetry is, generally, awfully difficult to translate as the form needs to be "translated" as well into the medium of the other language.

If there is something like The Lord of the Rings, which is epic in every quality except poetry, what do we call it?

I think your main problem is that you approach the issue of what's "epic" from the point of view of the content rather than the form. The form IS a part of the content of the work and is by no means secondary; on the contrary, you can organize the same content or idea into many different forms, but those will end up different works, as that which makes it literature are their formal qualities first. That which makes literature an art is a "how?" (-> language, style, metrics, etc.), not a "what?" (crude contents, plotline, general idea or narrative, etc.). As such, literature as art is defined by the form and genres are classified by the form as well.

[Kfamily]

Thank you, everyone, for helping me understand this better.

[peppericusjensenicus]

Adding to this thread 10 years later, lol. Hoping your daughter wrote her epic and is continuing to write. If it's published out there let me know. If it's not, maybe encourage her to pick it back up, now that she has a few more years of writing under her belt, she may enjoy the meter more now. 

 

My understanding of epics as I work on my own epic poem is the need for verse seems to be driven by higher linguistic prowess needed to out-write, and write into, the literary collective of epics proceeding it. 

Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey, two stories one about a war, and one about a man going on a journey. 

Virgil came and tried to one-up Homer doing just one story incorporating both a journey and a war, and the formation of the greatest nation. 

Dante came along and tried to one-up Virgil by having himself go on a journey to the darkest nation - hell - led there by none other than... Virgil, who then couldn't go as far as Dante could in the story, indicating that Dante was taking the Epic beyond the reach of Virgil or Homer. 

Milton then wrote Paradise Lost flipping everything on it's head, and having the hero be none-other-than Satan, starting in hell, going on the greatest journey, to conquer the greatest kingdom, all of humanity, and creating the origin of all wars. 

There has arguably been no great epic since Milton's Paradise Lost almost 600 years ago. 

So I would say one nature of the Epic poem (as is also evidenced in Spencer's Faire Queen, and Ovid's Metamorphosis, and any other writer's attempt at an epic) is the goal of out-writing the great works before them. I think partially because of this, verse has been primary, in its elevated linguistic format. In fact Paradise Lost begins with an explanation of verse's superior nature not being rhymed to counter current culture's default to rhyme, and making the argument that high linguistic's is paramount to great works. 

"The Measure is English Heroic Verse without Rime, as that of Homer in Greek, and Virgil in Latin; Rhime being no necessary Adjunct or true Ornament of Poem or good Verse, in longer Works especially, but the Invention of a barbarous Age, to set off wretched matter and lame Meeter; grac't indeed since by the use of some famous modern Poets, carried away by Custom, but much to thir own vexation, hindrance, and constraint to express many things otherwise, and for the most part worse then else they would have exprest them. Not without cause therefore some both Italian, and Spanish Poets of prime note have rejected Rhime both in longer and shorter Works, as have also long since our best English Tragedies, as a thing of itself, to all judicious ears, triveal, and of no true musical delight; which consists onely in apt Numbers, fit quantity of Syllables, and the sense variously drawn out from one Verse into another, not in the jingling sound of like endings, a fault avoyded by the learned Ancients both in Poetry and all good Oratory. This neglect then of Rhime so little is to be taken for a defect, though it may seem so perhaps to vulgar Readers, that it rather is to be esteem'd an example set, the first in English, of ancient liberty recover'd to heroic Poem from the troublesom and modern bondage of Rimeing."

The reason for meter had and still has great significance. The nice thing is it can be played with, and in my opinion, adds a greater freedom to writing. Putting parameters to form, frees the writer in a sense. 

Many works like Lord of the Rings (a favorite of mine) is epic as a story, and has many elements of an epic. But at this point a work would not be considered epic without tying into the compendium of epic poems before it and attempting to add or surpass those works proceeding it. That I suppose would not necessitate verse, if it can be justifiably higher linguistic structure. T.S. Elliot's writing style, were it turned into a story, could then I suppose be considered an epic, if it fit other barometers of the epic style. 

An epic, is synonymous with epic poem, and poem by nature usually has a form. So one could write a Haiku poem, and tamper with the form and style, sticking within the bounds of recognizable Haiku, and still have their work labeled as such. But one could not write a free-verse 2 page poem, and label it a Haiku. Likewise, in order to be considered an Epic it would need the high linguistics, and if not in verse, need it some justifiable reason it is superior linguistic structure. Even then many may not consider the work an epic without the verse.