The Dreaded Words (Math)

[Firefly]

DD 11 started to express some math anxiety last year doing Saxon 4-- previously she had loved her math (Saxon since Grade One) and often said how good she was at it. She especially loved her meeting book that we did every morning. I was thrilled, since I'm not a math person myself and struggled with it until high school. In fourth grade Saxon changes the format and there's no more meeting book and much less teacher involvement. So, I switched her to Oak Meadow Math 5 this year to see if that would help... it seemed to have a "friendlier" approach (not as intense as Saxon) but then this week I heard the dreaded words: "I'm not good at Math!" Ugh-- this is so what I DIDN'T want for her! Is it too late to turn it around? Any suggestions for a program/curriculum that will help her regain her confidence in math? She is very creative and artsy-- definitely a right brained kid. Thoughts? :confused:

[LisaKinVA]

No, it's not too late. All children will probably hit some sort of "wall." Even children who are normally very good with math can find themselves stuck, frustrated and feeling badly.

 

Is it the format? Or is it a concept? If it is truly the format, I would have expected you would see more regular (and growing in intensity) avoidance and complaining about math time, a higher regularity of "not understanding" what was being asked, etc. (Although, a fairly compliant child may not say anything until they had pretty much reached their breaking point).

 

When my oldest was young, we did Saxon. It was pure torture. My son would be having fun, doing his thing -- and then I'd get out the math lesson. He would break down and cry. He *hated* the presentation and format.

 

I have several different math curricula around here... Singapore, Abeka, Teaching Textbooks, Sadlier-Oxford, LoF, and now the much hated Math+ from K12 (UGH, the frustrations we have there are definitely the restrictive format).

 

Sometimes, my kids need a different presentation of the material to move forward. Sometimes, my kids need a break from the material. Sometimes, my kids need more time with the material -- and sometimes, they need a little of all three. Once we get through the issue at hand, they usually return to their normal, math-loving selves. :D

 

She's 9 or 10? Ask her how she feels about the new math course. Ask her if she'd like to go back to Saxon's style (although, there is no meeting book, etc.). Ask her what she likes/doesn't like about this text book (maybe it's all the writing... in which case changing to Saxon won't really help with that...),

 

If she enjoyed and thrived with Saxon -- don't be afraid to go back. Saxon is an excellent curricula.

 

Lisa

[lionfamily1999]

I had this moment with ds yesterday. It wasn't math, but I'm hoping this will help anyway. Ds was supposed to build a wheel and axle yesterday. He tried for about ten minutes, stomped over to me and said he was too stupid and could not do it.

 

My response:

Do you think the Wright Brothers decided to build a plane, went outside and just did it? No. They built all sorts of wierd contraptions that weren't much better than jazzed up bicycles. They built one "plane" that could hardly drive across a field. They built another that could just ride the top of the grass. They built another one that managed long hops, but still could not fly. Did they quit? Nope, they kept building and building and building. Now, these guys were studying up on this. They had finished school and yet, they did not get it right the first time. You are a child, you are still in school, you are still learning. Of course it's not going to come to you instantly! But you have a choice. You can quit now and never get any better, or you can go and get to work on your next try. You might not get it then, you might not get it after a ten or twenty tries, but eventually you will. Once you get it, you got it.

 

So, it's not the greatest motivational speach, but ds seemed to think so :p Dd did too (eavesdropper). Hope that helps!

[Tammyla]

The change in format is noticeable with Saxon, but it can be tweaked. I would work hard to restore her confidence as math grows more and more challenging. (I'm not one for switching, but if you know Saxon would be a good fit for her, I say go for it.)

 

Possible suggestions for Saxon or any program

 

The Warm UP is similar to the meeting book, but shorter.

Work with her or use the DIVE or SaxonTeacher cd rom.

Take longer to complete the lesson, two days or less of the practice sets problems. (I'm ducking the tomatoes, but it does work for some students.)

Write in the book to avoid copy-work mistakes and frustrations.

 

DD 11 started to express some math anxiety last year doing Saxon 4-- previously she had loved her math (Saxon since Grade One) and often said how good she was at it. She especially loved her meeting book that we did every morning. I was thrilled, since I'm not a math person myself and struggled with it until high school. In fourth grade Saxon changes the format and there's no more meeting book and much less teacher involvement. So, I switched her to Oak Meadow Math 5 this year to see if that would help... it seemed to have a "friendlier" approach (not as intense as Saxon) but then this week I heard the dreaded words: "I'm not good at Math!" Ugh-- this is so what I DIDN'T want for her! Is it too late to turn it around? Any suggestions for a program/curriculum that will help her regain her confidence in math? She is very creative and artsy-- definitely a right brained kid. Thoughts? :confused:

[Firefly]

Well I feel much better after reading your responses. I guess the first thing I have to do is decide if it's concept or format! I will talk to her about it this weekend and find out what's working for her and what's not and hopefully figure out exactly where the problem lies. And then I need to remind her that -- with any subject-- it's not always going to come easy. That sometimes you do have to work at things or that some concepts won't make sense (at first). Phew. I hope something will do the trick... I just don't want her to label herself and then be setting herself up for failure, you know? I need to nip it in the bud! Thanks so much for your feedback and suggestions!

[Mesa]

My 10 yr old decided he hates math... I'm so upset over this! Anyways, I decided to switch things up and do the entire lesson on the white board... so far so good. For now it's working decently... but I'm still eyeballing TT.

[Stacy in NJ]

overwhelming, it's okay to struggle a bit. Stuggle is a part of life. I wouldn't put aside a math program just because of her comment. I would let her know that math can be difficult (as can a million other subjects) but to persist can bring incredible rewards. It's okay to slow the pace, repeat lessons, and supplement, though.

[Firefly]

Thanks, Ladies. :) Yes, I have talked to her about how struggle within any subject is inevitable (some more than others ;). What worries me is that I don't think she's buying it-- for whatever reason she's decided to label herself as not being good at math. I will keep reminding her though, however many times she needs to hear it. That and put to use some of the great feedback I received in this thread!

[redsquirrel]

See, now I would really want to know where this self-labeling is coming from. Is she comparing herself to someone? Does she have an idea of how math 'should' be? Has it always been easy and this is the first time she has had to work? Is she trying, using the words she has, to let you know that she is having a real problem with mathmatical thinking?

 

What do you think? Is she comfortable with math or is it a struggle?

 

I would consider using material from say... a kumon book? or an online worksheet sort of thing to see if she has any big gaps in her skills. Can she multiply easily, fluently? Is she truly grasping the concepts or just going through the steps? If she doesn't deeply understand the concepts then she really might be feeling like her head is barely above water.

 

My son had a problem with multiplication. We had to slooow doooown and spend a lot of time getting him up to speed and feeling truly comfortable. It was time well spent.

 

Is she very clever? My son is a smartie pants and he hasn't ever really had to work hard at school. When he did run into a speed bump with math he just fell apart. I realized he had no coping skills for when something is difficult to learn. I spent time, not just teaching him the skill, but also study stragegies. Maybe she isn't used to having something be hard. That can be a rude awakening.

[Heather in WI]

See, now I would really want to know where this self-labeling is coming from. Is she comparing herself to someone? Does she have an idea of how math 'should' be? Has it always been easy and this is the first time she has had to work? Is she trying, using the words she has, to let you know that she is having a real problem with mathmatical thinking?

 

What do you think? Is she comfortable with math or is it a struggle?

 

I would consider using material from say... a kumon book? or an online worksheet sort of thing to see if she has any big gaps in her skills. Can she multiply easily, fluently? Is she truly grasping the concepts or just going through the steps? If she doesn't deeply understand the concepts then she really might be feeling like her head is barely above water.

 

My son had a problem with multiplication. We had to slooow doooown and spend a lot of time getting him up to speed and feeling truly comfortable. It was time well spent.

 

Is she very clever? My son is a smartie pants and he hasn't ever really had to work hard at school. When he did run into a speed bump with math he just fell apart. I realized he had no coping skills for when something is difficult to learn. I spent time, not just teaching him the skill, but also study stragegies. Maybe she isn't used to having something be hard. That can be a rude awakening.

 

This is a great post, Red Squirrel!

 

Also, OP, your post made me think of Po Bronson's How Not to Talk to Your Kids: The inverse power of praise.

 

 

“Some things came very quickly to him, but when they didn’t, he gave up almost immediately, concluding, ‘I’m not good at this.’ †With no more than a glance, Thomas was dividing the world into two—things he was naturally good at and things he wasn’t.

 

[Firefly]

See, now I would really want to know where this self-labeling is coming from. Is she comparing herself to someone? Does she have an idea of how math 'should' be? Has it always been easy and this is the first time she has had to work? Is she trying, using the words she has, to let you know that she is having a real problem with mathmatical thinking?

 

Great question! This is not the first time she has had to work/struggle. I think she has always struggled at least a teeny bit-- math does not come easily to her. Yet it's only recently that she's started to label herself. And a big YES to the first question: DS, two years older, is a math whiz. He's the kind of kid that can calculate change in his head in a split second... so she definitely sees how easy math (and many other subjects-- he has a photographic memory) come to him. How can I stop her from comparing herself to him? I'd love to hear some suggestions for this. I'm very careful not to compare them myself, but she is obviously noticing.

 

 

I would consider using material from say... a kumon book? or an online worksheet sort of thing to see if she has any big gaps in her skills. Can she multiply easily, fluently? Is she truly grasping the concepts or just going through the steps? If she doesn't deeply understand the concepts then she really might be feeling like her head is barely above water.

 

Hmmm, I'm not familiar with Kumon-- I'll look into that. Her multiplication facts come easily to her; we've really focused on her memorizing the facts. BUT, perhaps she's not clear on the concepts? This is something I need to explore...

 

Is she very clever? My son is a smartie pants and he hasn't ever really had to work hard at school. When he did run into a speed bump with math he just fell apart. I realized he had no coping skills for when something is difficult to learn. I spent time, not just teaching him the skill, but also study stragegies. Maybe she isn't used to having something be hard. That can be a rude awakening.

 

Super clever girl in other ways, but I don't believe that's what's going on here (incidentally though, I have run into the problem you described w/my DS!).

 

And Heather-- thank you for the link! I'm going to go check it out right now. :)

[Kareni]

Also, OP, your post made me think of Po Bronson's How Not to Talk to Your Kids: The inverse power of praise.

 

I enjoyed the Po Bronson piece, Heather. Thanks for sharing it.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[IsabelC]

I think the key is not to convince a child that she's good at math, but rather to convince her that you can still succeed if it doesn't come easy. Natural aptitude will, in most cases, only get you so far. Far more important is the ability to persevere and work hard to gain mastery at the level you want/need.

 

I know this because I went from being a math whizz to a math failure over my years at school. I spent seven or eight years doing extremely well with no effort. When I hit my personal wall, I had no determination and no skills to get past that point. I'd been told I was great, but not challenged and definitely not taught how to learn math. So when it didn't seem easy and natural any more, I concluded I wasn't good at it anymore and gradually gave up. I'm relearning math now with my first grader (!) and I will succeed because I now know that any person of at least average intelligence can do math.

 

We are trying to teach our kids the idea that everybody has strengths and weaknesses, and that if you are weaker in something, it doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means that you'll have to work harder and/or longer than other people if you choose to pursue that skill.

[woolybear]

You've had lots of helpful responses and I'm not sure if I really have anything to add here. Just to say-- started ds, 10 yo on TT this year. He really likes it and feels he is good at math. It may be that it is too easy for him at this point, so I don't know if we will hit a wall also if it gets harder for him.

 

On Oak Meadow--I like OM in many ways, but I do find some of their math (and the Waldorf approach to math above first grade) a bit convoluted and confusing.

 

So, no words of wisdom here, just relating my experience.