Dd hates math-her once favorite subject.

[smilesonly]

We are needing to put the brakes on her math as we figure out what to do next.

 

We've just pulled her out of Algebra 1 as she was having such trouble. (We outsourced.) This decision was made tonight, after finding out that her pre-algebra foundation wasn't solid.

 

This is what her math history consisted of:

 

Singapore (I had a hard time teaching this past level 4)

MUS (She hated it-likes a variety of problems to work)

CLE (Very little explanations)

LoF(Too abstract for her, she needed more review)

PS texts (Pages too cluttered, explanations dismal,didn't care for teacher)

 

We just had her complete a Saxon placement and she placed in 8/7. She is horrified and cried herself to sleep.

 

We are thinking that a combo of math/life changes over the last 3yrs has really set her up to hit such a wall. (Whew. Talk about mommy guilt. ugh.)

 

I am confused as can be about where to turn/what to do. On the placement tests, even the problems she got right she didn't show her work. (No, I wasn't paying attention.) I did ask her to double check her answers as she rushes through everything.

 

When we asked her what her ideal curriculum was, this is what she wrote out and I added in a few criteria, too.

 

-clear explanations-easy to comprehend

 

-step by step explanations

 

-lots of practice with new concepts/lessons

 

-regular review of previously learned concepts

 

-solutions and answers included

 

-builds confidence

 

-inexpensive, user friendly, easy to use w/ a mom that is not math savvy.

 

-levels stay with the same publisher

 

This is a dc that has already been identified as "gifted" while in PS. Her weakness is that she rushes and comprehension therefore suffers.

 

Ideas?

 

tia

 

eta-she is 13 and considered 8th gr.

Edited November 7, 2010 by smilesonly

[Maverick_Mom]

Teaching Textbooks? It seems like it would meet your dd's criteria.

 

Oops -- except for the "inexpensive" part. Missed that one. But it's often available used.

[at the beach]

We are needing to put the brakes on her math as we figure out what to do next.

 

We've just pulled her out of Algebra 1 as she was having such trouble. (We outsourced.) This decision was made tonight, after finding out that her pre-algebra foundation wasn't solid.

 

This is what her math history consisted of:

 

Singapore (I had a hard time teaching this past level 4)

MUS (She hated it-likes a variety of problems to work)

CLE (Very little explanations)

LoF(Too abstract for her, she needed more review)

PS texts (Pages too cluttered, explanations dismal,didn't care for teacher)

 

We just had her complete a Saxon placement and she placed in 8/7. She is horrified and cried herself to sleep.

 

We are thinking that a combo of math/life changes over the last 3yrs has really set her up to hit such a wall. (Whew. Talk about mommy guilt. ugh.)

 

I am confused as can be about where to turn/what to do. On the placement tests, even the problems she got right she didn't show her work. (No, I wasn't paying attention.) I did ask her to double check her answers as she rushes through everything.

 

When we asked her what her ideal curriculum was, this is what she wrote out and I added in a few criteria, too.

 

-clear explanations-easy to comprehend

 

-step by step explanations

 

-lots of practice with new concepts/lessons

 

-regular review of previously learned concepts

 

-solutions and answers included

 

-builds confidence

 

-inexpensive, user friendly, easy to use w/ a mom that is not math savvy.

 

-levels stay with the same publisher

 

This is a dc that has already been identified as "gifted" while in PS. Her weakness is that she rushes and comprehension therefore suffers.

 

Ideas?

 

tia

 

eta-she is 13 and considered 8th gr.

 

IMO you have perfectly described Rod and Staff Math except that it does not go on to higher levels after level 8. However, I think if you do Rod and Staff Math 8 (the most recent edition), your child would benefit greatly and be able to move onto any other standard Algebra program. Rod and Staff has some of the absolutely clearest explanations I have ever seen. This is one of the strongest features of this program in my opinion. It has continual review of previous concepts as well. It is mastery based but continually reviews the previous material in a review section. There are a lot of problems in each section, but you can do only odds or evens if you so choose. I'd also recommend TT but I am just not sure that it reviews enough. It will introduce a concept and then you will only get a few problems on it. It is working well with my fifth grader, though. She loves the computer aspect of it. In your situation, I'd use Rod and Staff. My daughter used it last year in 7th (Rod and Staff 8) and moved into Art of Problem Solving Algebra in the summer. Rod and Staff taught her all she needed to know for pre-algebra.

[Corraleno]

The first question I'd ask is what, specifically, she's having trouble with? Sometimes "doesn't understand algebra" turns out to mean "doesn't understand negative numbers" or "forgets how to divide by a fraction" or "always messes up the order of operations" or something that may seem like a "little thing" in prealgebra but becomes a big thing in algebra because it involves almost every problem. Can you pinpoint where the mistakes are? It might be both more effective and less traumatic to remediate a few areas rather than going through an entire 7th/8th grade math program again. For example, MM just came out with a really excellent Blue Book on integers that's only $3.75.

 

If it really is a sort of global problem with basic math, then I'd recommend Lial's Basic College Math. It's very thorough, lots of people here use it for prealgebra, it avoids the stigma of being a "lower" grade level than the one she was previously working on, and you can get used copies for about $5.

 

Jackie

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

-clear explanations-easy to comprehend

 

This is in essence meaningless, because what's a clear explanation to someone is 'clear as mud' to someone else. What's easy to comprehend to someone isn't to someone else.

 

What does she find is a clear explanation? Does it involved little drawings? Or not? My own DD will understand something if it comes with a little humourous drawing on the side. The same explanation without the drawing will mean nothing to her. (I don't personnally understand how it could be that way, but it's just like that). She will also understand something if she sees the DVD, but the exact same explanation with mom means nothing. Image is everything to her.

[siloam]

Lial has a reputation for being easy to understand. She writes remedial college texts for community colleges, where it is assumed the person is not mathy. There is even a video component if needed.

 

I am having my dd do Kinetic math, which is computer based, though right now they don't have a Geometry component, I am hoping they do by the time we get there. :D

 

Heather

[Teachin'Mine]

I think that you have the answers to what she needs to do - get a good pre-algebra foundation before moving on. Saxon 8/7 can do that very well. If she completes that this year, that would put her into Algebra 1 next year, then Algebra II, and then Advanced Math. If she does Advanced Math in one year, she would be able to do Calculus in her senior year. She won't be behind doing pre-algebra this year.

 

To go through the beginning of 8/7 more quickly, she can take the tests and test out of some lessons and then pick up the lessons when she shows she hasn't mastered the concepts. If the lessons are easy for her, there's no reason she can't do more than one a day and that would get her into algebra sooner if that's her goal.

 

Just my thoughts. :)

[Pam Wilhelm]

By way of introduction, I am a retired Saxon high school math teacher who taught using John's math books from algebra 1/2 through calculus for more than a dozen years. For the next eight or nine years, I was then John Saxon's upper level math home school curriculum advisor.

 

The good news is, you have seen the problem surface in time to correct it and enable her to leave high school prepared for any math driven collegiate curriculum. I can assure you that we can resolve this to the point that she will return to liking math because she understands it.

 

To save a timely and lengthy exchange of email and to enable me to answer your questions more accurately based upon your replies to my questions, I recommend you either call my office early next week, or email me your telephone number and I will call you on my office phone which has unlimited long distance calling. A few minutes on the telephone is much less frustrating than a lengthy exchange of email.

 

Regardless of your decision, I wish you success.

 

 

Art Reed

www.usingsaxon.com

(580) 234-0064 (CST)

 

Call this guy....seriously!

[smilesonly]

Teaching Textbooks? It seems like it would meet your dd's criteria.

 

Oops -- except for the "inexpensive" part. Missed that one. But it's often available used.

 

Thanks. She has a friend using this, and said she doesn't think she would like something so computer-based. And, yes, price is an issue here as even used copies are quite expensive imo.

 

IMO you have perfectly described Rod and Staff Math except that it does not go on to higher levels after level 8. However, I think if you do Rod and Staff Math 8 (the most recent edition), your child would benefit greatly and be able to move onto any other standard Algebra program. Rod and Staff has some of the absolutely clearest explanations I have ever seen. This is one of the strongest features of this program in my opinion. It has continual review of previous concepts as well. It is mastery based but continually reviews the previous material in a review section. There are a lot of problems in each section, but you can do only odds or evens if you so choose. I'd also recommend TT but I am just not sure that it reviews enough. It will introduce a concept and then you will only get a few problems on it. It is working well with my fifth grader, though. She loves the computer aspect of it. In your situation, I'd use Rod and Staff. My daughter used it last year in 7th (Rod and Staff 8) and moved into Art of Problem Solving Algebra in the summer. Rod and Staff taught her all she needed to know for pre-algebra.

 

That's interesting. I have used R&S for English and lower level math(which was not a hit at all with my other dc) and am aware of their thoroughness and clear explanations.

Question. Did your dd use R&S from the beginning, or did she just jump into level 8? Also, as I've used it in the past, I've found it to be very teacher intensive. Is that not the case with their upper levels?

And, I thought AoPS was for profoundly gifted dc. I wouldn't say dd is profoundly gifted-just well above average. Do you think part of the success your dd had with moving into such a rigorous curriculum like AoPS is b'c she is profoundly gifted?

I have to admit, I have a love/hate relationship with R&S. I am interested in hearing your response. Thank you.

 

The first question I'd ask is what, specifically, she's having trouble with? Sometimes "doesn't understand algebra" turns out to mean "doesn't understand negative numbers" or "forgets how to divide by a fraction" or "always messes up the order of operations" or something that may seem like a "little thing" in prealgebra but becomes a big thing in algebra because it involves almost every problem. Can you pinpoint where the mistakes are? It might be both more effective and less traumatic to remediate a few areas rather than going through an entire 7th/8th grade math program again. For example, MM just came out with a really excellent Blue Book on integers that's only $3.75.

 

If it really is a sort of global problem with basic math, then I'd recommend Lial's Basic College Math. It's very thorough, lots of people here use it for prealgebra, it avoids the stigma of being a "lower" grade level than the one she was previously working on, and you can get used copies for about $5.

 

Jackie

 

Thanks, Jackie. I did see this on MM last night as I was browsing Maria's site and blog. Honestly, I'm not sure exactly where her troubles are. I say this, as my dh(who is profoundly gifted in all areas, with two of his degrees being math and physics) is the one who works with her and said she cannot move forward w/o having pre-algebraic work solid. Neither of them are here right now, so i can't ask them. However, I can say from looking at the Saxon placement tests that she doesn't have a firm grasp on geometry(area, perimeter),decimals, percentages and probability.

 

I have ordered via ILL Lials BCM and our system actually has a copy of Lials Beginning Algebra, so we will soon have that to look at.

 

This is in essence meaningless, because what's a clear explanation to someone is 'clear as mud' to someone else. What's easy to comprehend to someone isn't to someone else.

 

What does she find is a clear explanation? Does it involved little drawings? Or not? My own DD will understand something if it comes with a little humourous drawing on the side. The same explanation without the drawing will mean nothing to her. (I don't personnally understand how it could be that way, but it's just like that). She will also understand something if she sees the DVD, but the exact same explanation with mom means nothing. Image is everything to her.

 

Thanks and ITA! While dd was reading reviews about Saxon, she commented on how differently people feel about it. In fact, she said, "Oh my gosh, mom! How can you stand to read this stuff for hours? One person will describe the program as clear, the next says it is very scattered. Is this why you are so stressed looking for school work for us?" Umm. YES!!:ack2:

 

She says she wants to learn a new concept and have plenty of practice with it that same day she learns it, and then review it till it sticks.

 

As for how she learns, she is quite balanced in the three basic styles-auditory, visual, and kinesthetic. However, as she grows, her auditory and visual learning styles definitely dominate. I will say, she doesn't really care for cartoonish stuff, and depending on what it is, some pictorials in general.

 

Lial has a reputation for being easy to understand. She writes remedial college texts for community colleges, where it is assumed the person is not mathy. There is even a video component if needed.

 

I am having my dd do Kinetic math, which is computer based, though right now they don't have a Geometry component, I am hoping they do by the time we get there. :D

 

Heather

 

Thanks. She looked into Kinetic math and isn't wanting such a strong computer-based curriculum. I am getting Lials via ILL, so we can take a peek.

 

I think that you have the answers to what she needs to do - get a good pre-algebra foundation before moving on. Saxon 8/7 can do that very well. If she completes that this year' date=' that would put her into Algebra 1 next year, then Algebra II, and then Advanced Math. If she does Advanced Math in one year, she would be able to do Calculus in her senior year. She won't be behind doing pre-algebra this year.

 

To go through the beginning of 8/7 more quickly, she can take the tests and test out of some lessons and then pick up the lessons when she shows she hasn't mastered the concepts. If the lessons are easy for her, there's no reason she can't do more than one a day and that would get her into algebra sooner if that's her goal.

 

Just my thoughts. :)[/quote']

 

Thanks. I am hesitant to use Saxon for two reasons.

 

1-She has expressed that she wants to learn a new concept at once-not in small pieces. She concluded that Saxon really doesn't fit this need. What she thinks she would like about Saxon, is the review and variety of problems.

 

2-She's never used it before and I have the understanding that one needs to have started Saxon in lower years to be successful with it.

 

Most of her friends use it, so that is why she asked for a placement test from Saxon-she wanted to see how she is measuring up to her peers. I, of course, explained how different of a curriculum saxon is, therefore it is unfair to play the comparing game that she too frequently does.;):rolleyes:

 

Call this guy....seriously!

 

Thanks. See my above response re Saxon.

[Faithr]

I would call Art Reed!

[smilesonly]

I would call Art Reed!

 

Really? Did you read my response to the other poster up thread? I really want to know why you think this after hearing my reply.

 

I should have mentioned that in addition to Lials, I also checked out Saxon 7/6 from our library and will pick it up Tuesday. I've always ran from Saxon(bit of a rebel) so I figured I should at least give it a peek to be fair. Dh and dd both want to take a look at it. I've seen lower levels and surmised there was NO way I could use it-but I do understand Saxon is different from 5/4 up.

 

Anyway...

[at the beach]

That's interesting. I have used R&S for English and lower level math(which was not a hit at all with my other dc) and am aware of their thoroughness and clear explanations.

Question. Did your dd use R&S from the beginning, or did she just jump into level 8? Also, as I've used it in the past, I've found it to be very teacher intensive. Is that not the case with their upper levels?

And, I thought AoPS was for profoundly gifted dc. I wouldn't say dd is profoundly gifted-just well above average. Do you think part of the success your dd had with moving into such a rigorous curriculum like AoPS is b'c she is profoundly gifted?

I have to admit, I have a love/hate relationship with R&S. I am interested in hearing your response. Thank you.

 

She used Rod and Staff for fourth grade when we first started homeschooling. She came from a school that used Dale Seymour Investigations. Rod and Staff was just what she needed to help her feel confident about math after Investigations. Then, we used TT 7 (not enough review for her at the time) and then moved to Singapore. After 7th grade, instead of doing NEM or Dolciani Pre-Algebra, I decided she could use a year of solidifying her basic arithmetic skills. I turned to Rod and Staff because she had gotten so much out of it in fourth. I really wish I'd stuck with it looking back. Maybe supplementing with Singapore. I would say fourth grade was more intensive for me as I did it with her. Last year, she did it on her own. The explanations are so clear in the text, she really did not need me much for it.

 

I honestly have no concept of whether she's what others might call gifted or not. :tongue_smilie: AoPS is challenging, for sure, and the online classes move FAST but if you do it on your own and take it slowly, then I think it can be workable for more kids than those that might be considered gifted. Whether a kid enjoys it or not is probably another matter as well. She did fine with the online class when she was able to put the time into it, but she just couldn't keep up the pace with the class because of vacations and dance camps. She loved the class, though, and loved the challenge. The book is great on its own, though, too.

 

But back to Rod and Staff. It is such an excellent curriculum all around IMO. I had Lial's BCM on my shelf at one point. It is written for college students. It was dense. I don't know, it just didn't appeal to us here. I felt like I wanted a text written to a student that was in 7th grade, not in community college. But YMMV.

[Faithr]

Oops! I probably didn't read your post closely enough. My bad! However, I think you are wrong that you have to use Saxon beforehand in order to start in Algebra I. I've used Saxon for years but never at the lower level. Saxon has so much review built into it, that if you take it slowly, it is possible your daughter could get the reinforcement she needs as she works through the text.

 

My kids hated Math U See too and LOF. They are also audio/visual learners and they enjoy Saxon. They developed a real confidence in math and they have tested very well. So I am a major Saxon fan.

 

I also think it is cool that Art Reed responded to your post. He is a nice guy who explains math very well and he's expert at helping kids out, so I was impressed!

[smilesonly]

She used Rod and Staff for fourth grade when we first started homeschooling. She came from a school that used Dale Seymour Investigations. Rod and Staff was just what she needed to help her feel confident about math after Investigations. Then, we used TT 7 (not enough review for her at the time) and then moved to Singapore. After 7th grade, instead of doing NEM or Dolciani Pre-Algebra, I decided she could use a year of solidifying her basic arithmetic skills. I turned to Rod and Staff because she had gotten so much out of it in fourth. I really wish I'd stuck with it looking back. Maybe supplementing with Singapore. I would say fourth grade was more intensive for me as I did it with her. Last year, she did it on her own. The explanations are so clear in the text, she really did not need me much for it.

 

I honestly have no concept of whether she's what others might call gifted or not. :tongue_smilie: AoPS is challenging, for sure, and the online classes move FAST but if you do it on your own and take it slowly, then I think it can be workable for more kids than those that might be considered gifted. Whether a kid enjoys it or not is probably another matter as well. She did fine with the online class when she was able to put the time into it, but she just couldn't keep up the pace with the class because of vacations and dance camps. She loved the class, though, and loved the challenge. The book is great on its own, though, too.

 

But back to Rod and Staff. It is such an excellent curriculum all around IMO. I had Lial's BCM on my shelf at one point. It is written for college students. It was dense. I don't know, it just didn't appeal to us here. I felt like I wanted a text written to a student that was in 7th grade, not in community college. But YMMV.

 

Hey, thanks!

 

Gotta say, I am really! confused about math now.;) Last night I was trying to figure out the difference between Traditional and Investigative Maths. I came away from reading and concluded that a curriculum like Singapore was Investigative and R&S was Traditional. So, you're saying that Singapore isn't Investigative? So would something like Miquon be considered Investigative? (okay-i now strongly dislike spelling that word.:))

 

You make me feel so much better in regards to math jumping!:grouphug:

 

Another question re R&S. Does the level 8 include geometry? While dd had a lot of this in CLE, she didn't retain it-obviously.

[siloam]

Hey, thanks!

 

Gotta say, I am really! confused about math now.;) Last night I was trying to figure out the difference between Traditional and Investigative Maths. I came away from reading and concluded that a curriculum like Singapore was Investigative and R&S was Traditional. So, you're saying that Singapore isn't Investigative? So would something like Miquon be considered Investigative? (okay-i now strongly dislike spelling that word.:))

 

You make me feel so much better in regards to math jumping!:grouphug:

 

Another question re R&S. Does the level 8 include geometry? While dd had a lot of this in CLE, she didn't retain it-obviously.

 

If you want to look at a program that is discovery based, or what I think you mean by investigative, try Discovering Math by Key Press (not to be confused with Discovering Mathematics by Singapore). The child does stuff then puts together how that fits into what they are learning.

 

I like the idea, and almost chose it as a text for my dd, but my kids just want to know the why first, so I walked away.

 

BTW on Singapore, my understanding is that Singapore introduces a topic, then has the child do a couple of practice problems then quickly moves into having them apply the concept to a totally different situation to test if the child got the base concept. Not exactly investigative, but not exactly your typical math either.

 

Heather

Edited November 7, 2010 by siloam

[smilesonly]

She used Rod and Staff for fourth grade when we first started homeschooling. She came from a school that used Dale Seymour Investigations. Rod and Staff was just what she needed to help her feel confident about math after Investigations. Then, we used TT 7 (not enough review for her at the time) and then moved to Singapore. After 7th grade, instead of doing NEM or Dolciani Pre-Algebra, I decided she could use a year of solidifying her basic arithmetic skills. I turned to Rod and Staff because she had gotten so much out of it in fourth. I really wish I'd stuck with it looking back. Maybe supplementing with Singapore. I would say fourth grade was more intensive for me as I did it with her. Last year, she did it on her own. The explanations are so clear in the text, she really did not need me much for it.

 

I honestly have no concept of whether she's what others might call gifted or not. :tongue_smilie: AoPS is challenging, for sure, and the online classes move FAST but if you do it on your own and take it slowly, then I think it can be workable for more kids than those that might be considered gifted. Whether a kid enjoys it or not is probably another matter as well. She did fine with the online class when she was able to put the time into it, but she just couldn't keep up the pace with the class because of vacations and dance camps. She loved the class, though, and loved the challenge. The book is great on its own, though, too.

 

But back to Rod and Staff. It is such an excellent curriculum all around IMO. I had Lial's BCM on my shelf at one point. It is written for college students. It was dense. I don't know, it just didn't appeal to us here. I felt like I wanted a text written to a student that was in 7th grade, not in community college. But YMMV.

 

I just checked out the s&s and see that it is VERY THOROUGH and not only contains a ton of pre-algebra, but geometry and beginning algebra, too. Wow. I can see why your dd was well prepared for AoPS!

 

I was hopeful when I saw listed a 9th gr. curriculum, then disappointed that it was more of consumer math. Which is good, but oh my, they really need to develop higher levels of their curriculum.

 

Oops! I probably didn't read your post closely enough. My bad! However, I think you are wrong that you have to use Saxon beforehand in order to start in Algebra I. I've used Saxon for years but never at the lower level. Saxon has so much review built into it, that if you take it slowly, it is possible your daughter could get the reinforcement she needs as she works through the text.

 

My kids hated Math U See too and LOF. They are also audio/visual learners and they enjoy Saxon. They developed a real confidence in math and they have tested very well. So I am a major Saxon fan.

 

I also think it is cool that Art Reed responded to your post. He is a nice guy who explains math very well and he's expert at helping kids out, so I was impressed!

 

Thanks for replying. Yk, dd actually liked LoF, but I really don't think for her, that it was a stand alone curriculum. In hindsight, I should have just supplemented, but life was unusually difficult then.:glare:

 

I am concerned that Saxon teaches concepts in a too tiny way. Haven't used it, so could be wrong.

 

I also think it's nice that Mr. Reed responded, though he obviously has an agenda.;)

 

Just sayin'....

 

Hey, thanks!

 

Gotta say, I am really! confused about math now.;) Last night I was trying to figure out the difference between Traditional and Investigative Maths. I came away from reading and concluded that a curriculum like Singapore was Investigative and R&S was Traditional. So, you're saying that Singapore isn't Investigative? So would something like Miquon be considered Investigative? (okay-i now strongly dislike spelling that word.:))

 

You make me feel so much better in regards to math jumping!:grouphug:

 

Another question re R&S. Does the level 8 include geometry? While dd had a lot of this in CLE, she didn't retain it-obviously.

[Corraleno]

I can say from looking at the Saxon placement tests that she doesn't have a firm grasp on geometry(area, perimeter), decimals, percentages and probability.

I'd recommend the following MM Blue Books:

Geometry 2

Fractions & Decimals 3

Percent

(There should be a statistics & probability book next month)

 

The explanations are clear & explicit, the books cover each topic very thoroughly, with lots of practice to solidify the concepts, and she can stick with one topic until she feels like she really gets it before moving on. It's also cheap — about $15 total for the above books. For a general review of basic math, there's also a Blue book called The Four Operations with a Touch of Algebra. My DH is also PG and he's been very impressed with MM.

 

If she likes the way MM teaches, you could look into Foerster's Algebra. It's very similar in approach, with very clear, explicit conceptual explanations and good challenging problems. There's a complete solutions guide available for it, and Math Without Borders offers DVD instruction.

 

(I confess I'm not a Saxon fan myself, and I think if your hunch is that Saxon would not work for you or your DD, then I'd follow your instincts.)

 

Jackie

[EKS]

I'd take a look at the Lial series.

[Teachin'Mine]

As Faith said algebra isn't too late into the series to make starting Saxon too difficult - especially if you begin with 8/7 or part of 8/7. But I understand that it doesn't meet your daughter's requirement of teaching one concept thoroughly all at once. Looking at how 7/6 is set up will give her a good idea of how the rest of them go as well.

[smilesonly]

I'd recommend the following MM Blue Books:

Geometry 2

Fractions & Decimals 3

Percent

(There should be a statistics & probability book next month)

 

The explanations are clear & explicit, the books cover each topic very thoroughly, with lots of practice to solidify the concepts, and she can stick with one topic until she feels like she really gets it before moving on. It's also cheap — about $15 total for the above books. For a general review of basic math, there's also a Blue book called The Four Operations with a Touch of Algebra. My DH is also PG and he's been very impressed with MM.

 

If she likes the way MM teaches, you could look into Foerster's Algebra. It's very similar in approach, with very clear, explicit conceptual explanations and good challenging problems. There's a complete solutions guide available for it, and Math Without Borders offers DVD instruction.

 

(I confess I'm not a Saxon fan myself, and I think if your hunch is that Saxon would not work for you or your DD, then I'd follow your instincts.)

 

Jackie

 

Thanks, Jackie. I'll take a peek at this!

 

I have looked into Foerster's, and will keep it in mind for later. Brain overload right now.;)

 

As Faith said algebra isn't too late into the series to make starting Saxon too difficult - especially if you begin with 8/7 or part of 8/7. But I understand that it doesn't meet your daughter's requirement of teaching one concept thoroughly all at once. Looking at how 7/6 is set up will give her a good idea of how the rest of them go as well.

 

That's good to know. It should be interesting to hear what she thinks once she gets her hands on it.

[ma23peas]

Tell her not to fret...at all!!!

 

We had a rough 2 years and we barely got through many lessons of math, so we started gung ho in August and my son flew through Algebra 1/2 (had already started LOF last January but realized he needed more review so stepped back)..dd (7th grade) was on lesson 90 of Saxon 8/7 and I told her to move straight to Algebra 1/2..mainly b/c the last lessons of ANY Saxon are mostly what's in the first lessons of the next level..she's on lesson 30 and zooming through.

 

My son got about 2/3 through Algebra 1/2 and we moved him directly to Foerster's Algebra I...he's doing great, really any child can do this by doing one solid math lessons a day and skipping those that repeat...in all actuality it took us about 2.5 months...we're back on schedule sort of, he's zooming through Algebra 1 and we'll start Geometry at the end of February and finish it by August, that way he'll be starting 10th grade and starting Algebra II..so back on schedule! :)

 

It can be done, my kids don't get discouraged b/c I don't make it a big deal, life gets in the way, they've excelled in other areas (son finishes Chemistry in 6 weeks, girls speak Latin, Italian and German...) so no biggie, we have strenths/weaknesses, but if they apply themselves they get it done! :)

 

Tara

[smilesonly]

Tell her not to fret...at all!!!

 

We had a rough 2 years and we barely got through many lessons of math, so we started gung ho in August and my son flew through Algebra 1/2 (had already started LOF last January but realized he needed more review so stepped back)..dd (7th grade) was on lesson 90 of Saxon 8/7 and I told her to move straight to Algebra 1/2..mainly b/c the last lessons of ANY Saxon are mostly what's in the first lessons of the next level..she's on lesson 30 and zooming through.

 

My son got about 2/3 through Algebra 1/2 and we moved him directly to Foerster's Algebra I...he's doing great, really any child can do this by doing one solid math lessons a day and skipping those that repeat...in all actuality it took us about 2.5 months...we're back on schedule sort of, he's zooming through Algebra 1 and we'll start Geometry at the end of February and finish it by August, that way he'll be starting 10th grade and starting Algebra II..so back on schedule! :)

 

It can be done, my kids don't get discouraged b/c I don't make it a big deal, life gets in the way, they've excelled in other areas (son finishes Chemistry in 6 weeks, girls speak Latin, Italian and German...) so no biggie, we have strenths/weaknesses, but if they apply themselves they get it done! :)

 

Tara

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

I wish I didn't make it a big deal, and I wish my dd didn't get so bent out of shape about things. But, we are ALL very intense people. Not one of us is easy going.;) Quirky parents = quirky dc.:tongue_smilie:

I am curious-were the timesw/Saxon that you mention your first experience with it, or had you used it before?

[at the beach]

Hey, thanks!

 

Gotta say, I am really! confused about math now.;) Last night I was trying to figure out the difference between Traditional and Investigative Maths. I came away from reading and concluded that a curriculum like Singapore was Investigative and R&S was Traditional. So, you're saying that Singapore isn't Investigative? So would something like Miquon be considered Investigative? (okay-i now strongly dislike spelling that word.:))

 

You make me feel so much better in regards to math jumping!:grouphug:

 

Another question re R&S. Does the level 8 include geometry? While dd had a lot of this in CLE, she didn't retain it-obviously.

 

Well, I know that Rod and Staff is traditional and I think that Singapore is great with problem solving techniques. As for Dale Seymour, I think it's even worse than that other program most people consider terrible--Everyday Math (which is TERC, isn't it?). All I know is my child came out of third grade terribly confused. It seemed to me like she spent the year cutting paper into zillions of tiny strips. LOL. It also involved lots of writing of sentences. That's about all I remember. I really knew nothing about it other than thinking it was odd. I eventually researched it and discovered how terrible it was supposed to be. I don't think Singapore is at all like Investigations or TERC.

 

Anyway, you've gotten tons of advice. I hope you find something that works. At this point, I would probably focus on doing something traditional just to make sure she gets it all covered once more thoroughly. My daughter really got a lot out of Rod and Staff last year. It can seem like a lot if you do all the oral drills and extras in the teacher manual but it's easy to pare it down as necessary. Also, if you order from Rod and Staff directly they ship super fast. I've received my stuff from them within a few days when I ordered in the past. You have to call them, though. Their number is 1-606-522-4348. Oh, and I have also heard that Keys to series is good, but we have not used that. You might want to look at fractions, decimals, and percents.

 

Best wishes! :001_smile:

[rlugbill]

I suggest using the Key To books for a while. Back up a little and use them all. They are clear and explain the concepts well. They aren't really thorough enough to be a full course in algebra and geometry though. They are inexpensive.

 

Rod and Staff is also a good program and could be an alternative to the Key To books. It is also inexpensive.

 

Then, when she has finished those, she will be a little older, and her brain will have developed more, so she will be more ready for a more complete algebra course. I'd suggest getting a regular textbook like Jacobs or Foersters and getting the cds or dvds so there is a teacher teaching it as well as the book.

 

After the basic course with the Key To books and a little more time for her brain to mature, she should be able to get it.

 

Best wishes.

[Robin in DFW]

I have one child who despises Saxon...we tried it several times for her...it would bring her to tears. She's using the Lial's text now for Pre Calculus...she used a similar text for Algebra 2...TT for Algebra 1 and Geometry. Amazingly, she is quite good at math and my engineer husband has been impressed with her progress.

 

My son has tried several programs and we keep going BACK to Saxon for him. He got about half way through Lial's BCM and had a math breakdown...as a previous poster pointed out---the Lial's books are written to adults, not middle schoolers. They are awesome. I love the explanations, but the lessons are long and the explanations can take an eternity to get through. If your dd has the patience and focus, the Lial's texts are an excellent choice. My dd has the patience and focus, my son...not so much...

 

Anyway, he has moved into Saxon Algebra 1/2 and is really like it much better. He likes the explanations, the same number of problems for each day...basically, the predictability of it. He does well with having the concepts broken down and he is able to put the pieces together as the lessons progress. There is usually a reminder in the newest lesson regarding the previous part taught. A lot of it is review, but that's okay. I'd rather him be solid on those pre algebra concepts. He will move into an Algebra 1 program in 9th grade. It might be Saxon...it might be Lial's or something similar, it might be Dolciani...We aim to get through Pre Calculus by graduation. I don't believe in rushing math. It's one of those things that takes time to do well in...

[Melissa in CA]

 

 

I am concerned that Saxon teaches concepts in a too tiny way. Haven't used it, so could be wrong.

 

 

 

I have used it, and it does. I would never in a million years recommend Saxon to anyone. I forced my two older boys (one with slight LDs, one gifted) to use Saxon because, frankly, I didn't know any better and because everyone said it was the knees bees. Ack! I say don't do it. Don't let anyone talk you into it. Don't, don't, don't! :lol: Fill in the gaps with MM or something else.

 

I personally like BJU and CLE, but I have used a myriad of programs in my checkard (Ha!) homeschooling past...Saxon, Singapore, MUS, Abeka, MMM, LOF (gad awful!)...and I have had the best retention with BJU and CLE.

 

I hope you find the best course of action for YOUR child. ;):D

[Matryoshka]

I'm using a combo of Lial's BCM and Key to Algebra books with my dd12 this year. It seems to be setting the right tone between clear explanations and lots of practice/review in the BCM book and a gentle introduction to new topics in the Key to... (we'll do Algebra for real next year). I'm also having her do some problems in Singapore CWP6 for good measure.

 

She's already done Singapore through 6b, LOF Fractions, Dec/Perc, and Pre-Alg w/Biology, and we also did Hands-on Equations this summer. She still makes tons of careless errors, though... so I'm trying not to move her ahead too fast without making her feel like she's standing still...

[smilesonly]

I wanted to update on my dd's math woes.:)

 

She didn't like Lial's or Saxon-though I will say that she only looked through each book, never actually did a problem.;)

 

We decided on R&S gr. 7 after viewing the TOC, and also b'c I wanted to be sure she had zero gaps. She is almost done with it, but her dislike of math is growing even more. I am very hesitant to use R&S 8, as each lesson is taking her so long and that is discouraging her. She has also used some MM to supplement, but isn't too fond of the way Maria explains concepts. I think dd is just extremely picky.

 

I am now reconsidering the cost of math:tongue_smilie:to be sure she is well prepared AND likes math again, and we have all decided that she needs to learn Algebra by way of a lecture/book combo(NOT me as the lecturer). TT seems like a good choice, but I have concerns beyond the minimalist approach it seems to take. I am considering Math Relief, and if she doesn't like it after Phase 1, we will try AR's dvd with Saxon.

 

A BIG change I have made with every lesson, is having her write out every problem, even the simple review problems. Prior to this, she did a lot in her head, making silly mistakes and also making it difficult for me to see where her weakness is. I am convinced that this alone played a significant role in her falling behind. :glare: Call me a slow learner. Poor dc-my guinea pig with all things.;)

[Tiramisu]

I wanted to update on my dd's math woes.:)

 

She didn't like Lial's or Saxon-though I will say that she only looked through each book, never actually did a problem.;)

 

We decided on R&S gr. 7 after viewing the TOC, and also b'c I wanted to be sure she had zero gaps. She is almost done with it, but her dislike of math is growing even more. I am very hesitant to use R&S 8, as each lesson is taking her so long and that is discouraging her. She has also used some MM to supplement, but isn't too fond of the way Maria explains concepts. I think dd is just extremely picky.

 

I am now reconsidering the cost of math:tongue_smilie:to be sure she is well prepared AND likes math again, and we have all decided that she needs to learn Algebra by way of a lecture/book combo(NOT me as the lecturer). TT seems like a good choice, but I have concerns beyond the minimalist approach it seems to take. I am considering Math Relief, and if she doesn't like it after Phase 1, we will try AR's dvd with Saxon.

 

A BIG change I have made with every lesson, is having her write out every problem, even the simple review problems. Prior to this, she did a lot in her head, making silly mistakes and also making it difficult for me to see where her weakness is. I am convinced that this alone played a significant role in her falling behind. :glare: Call me a slow learner. Poor dc-my guinea pig with all things.;)

 

It's a puzzle that previously "gifted" and "mathy" dc sometimes have a rough time with algebra and beyond, especially those intuitive ones who were always able to do it in their head.

 

We wound up with TT because it offers all of what you said your dc wants, except for the price. You don't have to be bound to the computer because the full explanation is in the text.

 

What I really prefer about TT compared to Saxon is that new concepts are presented in a systematic way and build on each other through the chapter. And, you still get the review of previous concepts everyday. The constant shift in Saxon from one day's lesson to the next is not good for all learners. My dd definitely does better with the systematc, one topic per chapter approach. However, she also needs constant review. With TT, both bases are covered. Each dc's needs are different, though.

 

I figure once a solid foundation is laid with TT, you can always proceed to a more rigorous program if your dc is inclined that way. Just my 2 cents.

[Julie in MN]

I think we've talked about Math Relief and I'm so glad you're considering it. For anyone else in a similar situation, Math Relief is truly taught by a gifted algebra teacher. And that can be key, I think.

Julie

[BakersDozen]

I think that you have the answers to what she needs to do - get a good pre-algebra foundation before moving on. Saxon 8/7 can do that very well. If she completes that this year, that would put her into Algebra 1 next year, then Algebra II, and then Advanced Math. If she does Advanced Math in one year, she would be able to do Calculus in her senior year. She won't be behind doing pre-algebra this year.

 

To go through the beginning of 8/7 more quickly, she can take the tests and test out of some lessons and then pick up the lessons when she shows she hasn't mastered the concepts. If the lessons are easy for her, there's no reason she can't do more than one a day and that would get her into algebra sooner if that's her goal.

 

This describes what we did. My 10yo went through Saxon 8/7 more as a review, took the tests then focused just on lessons she had difficulty with. I am so glad we took the time (about 4mo) to do this because she was then able to move on with more confidence. She is finishing Algebra I this year and will do one more year of Algebra (I figure she's only 12yo so she has time to do this) + a Geometry course then on to Alg. II.

[Carol in Cal.]

I like Saxon, but 87 is a hard book because the breadth of the material it covers is so great. I would hate to start Saxon with that one. Algebra 1, OTOH, is much more focussed, and as an engineer, I think it's a great program. I especially appreciate its focus on unit analysis and on linear equations, as those are used a lot in science, especially in chemistry.

[Brindee]

It's a puzzle that previously "gifted" and "mathy" dc sometimes have a rough time with algebra and beyond, especially those intuitive ones who were always able to do it in their head.

 

We wound up with TT because it offers all of what you said your dc wants, except for the price. You don't have to be bound to the computer because the full explanation is in the text.

 

What I really prefer about TT compared to Saxon is that new concepts are presented in a systematic way and build on each other through the chapter. And, you still get the review of previous concepts everyday. The constant shift in Saxon from one day's lesson to the next is not good for all learners. My dd definitely does better with the systematc, one topic per chapter approach. However, she also needs constant review. With TT, both bases are covered. Each dc's needs are different, though.

 

I figure once a solid foundation is laid with TT, you can always proceed to a more rigorous program if your dc is inclined that way. Just my 2 cents.

:iagree: Exactly! My dd was quite far ahead in math until the Algebra hit. She's still struggling with some concepts. DD ended up doing TC's "Basic Math" to start out this year. She really liked it, and said it helped her fill in some gaps she had.

 

Now, though she's still struggling some with some fractions and negative numbers, she's going through TT Algebra 1 at a pace that helps fill those gaps as well. She can't stand Saxon, but does like TT. She needs the visual, so we can't go with just any program....

 

And, as Kelli said, once she gets the concepts she's struggling with, she can head to more rigorous math materials! I'm not worried about it, I'd rather her understand the concepts and be able to later move forward understanding as she goes!

 

About TT cost: You can find it used here on this board, and can also resell it on this board, so the cost is equal to or, in some cases, cheaper than some other math programs!

 

 

 

I think we've talked about Math Relief and I'm so glad you're considering it. For anyone else in a similar situation, Math Relief is truly taught by a gifted algebra teacher. And that can be key, I think.

Julie

I'm going to look into this more and see what it's about. Thanks for the reminder!