s/o keeping high school rigorous

[elegantlion]

How do you quantify keeping high school rigorous? I imagine following WTM would more than qualify. However, my son's high school career will probably look like a combination of WTM, LCC, and his own interests. I don't see us following the traditional scope and sequence of any one curriculum provider.

 

How do I avoid the pitfalls of accepting less than his best? Maybe not me specifically, I imagine there are others out there are pondering the same issue.

 

I'm not sure we'll utilize co-ops, but what kind of questions should I ask? I would love to find the situation Kimber explained in the regulations thread, experts teaching children.

 

What classes are easiest to fall into the trap of accepting less? I would imagine science and writing are highest on the list. What else should I consider?

 

I guess what I'm asking (way before the coffee kicks in, btw) is what kind of markers do I keep in place for myself. I want to make sure my son's high school study is rigorous knowing his scope of study isn't going to follow any one plan. I want to keep my standards high, I'm the one that tends to give in at this point, not him.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

:lurk5:

[Michelle in AL]

I think you're right about following the WTM for history/lit. It is rigorous and I don't think you can do better than that. High school has been VERY rigorous for my oldest. I choose one or two subjects a yr that I can teach rigorously. I choose Lit/Writing every yr and learn alll that I can about it myself so that I can become an expert teacher in that area.

 

ALL of our outside classes have been rigorous. She's taken classes at Veritas Press, they are rigorous, classes at PA Homeschoolers which are VERY rigorous, classes at Potter's school which are moderately rigorous and classes at Univ of AL online which are VERY rigorous. I can't imagine college classes being anymore rigorous than PA Homeschoolers and Univ of AL.

 

We also use Khan Academy and DIVE cds to make science more rigorous.

 

We also use open university lectures to supplement classes.

 

Our problem has been not making it too rigorous so that school doesn't take up her whole life.

 

To answer your ? better, I look at what my children want to go into, then I pick the best possible materials or classes that they will need to be ready to go into that field. Other classes that don't matter so much (for us this is history), I pay less attention to.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Michelle in AL

[Teachin'Mine]

That's a good question. I think posting the schedule of courses here, and curricula used, is a great way to get feedback. If there are gaps, or something seems not quite up to snuff - people will tell you. :) That helps as far as scope and content, but it's harder to know how to grade papers and what standards to hold as that's way more subjective.

[Jane in NC]

Keep it rigorous--but keep it real. That would be my advice.

 

By "real" I mean realistic as well as pragmatic when you see fit. Certainly I followed TWTM more than many do on these boards during my son's six years of homeschooling. (He is now a first year student at a liberal arts college.) My son is an avid reader who loved everything from Plato's Republic to Dante's Inferno to Moby Dick. This was never an issue for us as it is with some. Science and history were fun for him. In 11th grade I ceded these courses to instructors at the community college. He chose the history courses, while I encouraged the science so that he could have better labs than I provided at home. That said, we had other concerns that occasionally escalated to battle status. Mathematics was a priority for me despite my son's lack of passion for the subject. I spent more time worrying about writing than perhaps anything else. And I also wanted my son to pull his nose out of the books regularly to insure that he had real world skills, everything from cooking to sewing to knowing how to build an amp for his electric mandolin.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that we are homeschoolers. We do not have to replicate public schools or the homeschooler down the street. I would occasional bend some of my book oriented demands to let his enthusiasm for a particular topic flow. For example, on days when his Archaeology magazine or Discover (the science magazine) would arrive in the mail, he would often drop everything for a 30 or 60 minute read. I had no problem with this. His textbooks were not going anywhere.

 

Similarly he had his volunteer work with the bird rehabber. If he chose to photograph a necropsy or help bandage an incoming "patient", I had no trouble letting him jump on his bike and go off to assist. This kind of thing enriched his academic experience while giving him interactions with adults outside of his home.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that my son could not maintain an around the clock academic program given his need for exercise and hands on activities. So I built in breaks--breaks from seat work as well as simple opportunities to get out of the house--so that when he was doing his book work he was focused. This gave me a break also so that I could ask myself whether my expectations were realistic.

 

It helped me to write general plans for the school year and then tweak them as the months went by. This did not mean that I was necessarily lowering my expectations but realizing that my son had acquired an interest along the way, something that could be pursued over something that I had previously planned.

 

Maybe we are not just holding our kids accountable here, but also holding ourselves accountable. And that means a regular evaluation of where we have been and where we want to go.

 

Best regards,

Jane

[Corraleno]

I think a lot depends on how you define "rigorous" and whether you're talking about content, skills, or both. Do you want rigorous content in every subject across the board, or do you want him to do a few subjects at a really deep, advanced level and let some of the less interesting subjects (to him) get done in a check-the-box way? I envision that by the time DS graduates from HS, he'll be working at a college level in math and science, and probably a few areas of history (ancient/medieval), and at a graduate level in paleontology, but there are other subjects (American & modern history, literary analysis, econ & gov't, Spanish) that I'm fine about doing in a cover-the-basics-for-cultural-literacy sort of way (in terms of content).

 

Lisa (Swimmermom) posted about a student she met who'd done AP English Lit and then promptly forgot everything he learned as soon as it was over. That seems like a huge waste of time to me — time that could have been better spent going deeper and doing original work in an area of interest. I think there's a danger in forcing kids to do every single subject, including those they have no interest in, at a super-rigorous level, because I don't think there will be much retention long term.

 

I actually think it's more important that key skills are taught in a rigorous way — the ability to think logically & critically; the ability to write concise, engaging, well-organized papers; the ability to analyze and synthesize information; etc. Those skills will allow a student to study any subject, any time, at a rigorous level, as well as to get the most out of subjects they're not inherently interested in and want to get through as efficiently as possible.

 

Jackie

[2cents]

We're doing opencourseware classes for our middleschoolers already. Those are free college level courses. We're also planning on doing some of the Great Courses. My college son did many of the Great Course offerings and those offered challenge and prep for college.

[laughing lioness]

From my psueo-rigorous perspective:

Have a course of study- we use a standard college-prep one.

We make full use of academic classes offered by "experts" whenever we can afford them, create them or find them. Hence, Ds taking chem and shakespeare this year by others who know far more than me.

We stress rhetorical skills- writing, speaking, drama over math and science. It would be reverse if my dh was the primary teacher but I am teaching my strengths. What I'm good at, my kids rock at. Where I'm weak, they get by. I haven't had time to learn to teach higher math and while my dh tutors in math, he is pretty full up too, so it's more caught than dedicated tutoring time.

 

My kids are committed to 0-debt through college so we've taken non-traditional routes for that. Test scores aren't ruling our world (even though I wish some of my kids would take them a bit more seriously;))

We've taken on-line classes- Latin through CLAA. I know there was a brewhaha about it, but the price is right and it's getting the job done.

 

Take advantadge of cool things that are available when they fit in to your overall vision. Ds is taking ballroom dancing (he needed FUN this fall!), he's participated in a One Act Play competition each year, we are fairly heavily involved in politics and TeenPact (they focus on rhetorical skills and leadership as well as government and have awesome alumni classes and leadership opportunities).

 

We are also participating in a weekly co-op that is "enrichment" - art (following church history), music (choir- they are learning a classic, patriotic and contemporary song, along with rounds and reading music), and a unit study (this fall it's financial peace). Even though it takes a whole day "out" of our academic week it fits with our over all goals- one of which was to have dedicated fun with like-minded friends. FUN is a high priority for us after last year:001_smile:.

 

Roll with life. The house fire cooked our grits (along with most of our possessions) last year and we've worked our tails off and spent a boatload of money getting our house whipped back into shape. Ds has learned to drywall, lay tile, etc. etc. etc. this year. It's been a huge "distraction" from academics but it's what's been handed us and he has gained confidence in his ability to tackle projects a lot of adults won't.

I figured out yesterday that in the 3 1/2 days we're home during the week, ds has 23 hrs of homework, not including the house work we're doing. We might not do the One Act play this year and he didn't apply for a TeenPact alumni event because of the opportunity to do Chem with the prof we had available. Like Jane said, keep it real and keep rolling. Each year continues to be different.

And, as an aside, I gave up trying to keep up with my kids reading (you can see from my blog side-bar that I have read 0 classics this year) becasue I need a life outside of managing/raising/mentoring my kids. There are great study guides and sparknotes so that I can ask him rigorous questions without making his homework mine.

Edited November 3, 2010 by laughing lioness

[johnandtinagilbert]

How do you quantify keeping high school rigorous? I imagine following WTM would more than qualify. However, my son's high school career will probably look like a combination of WTM, LCC, and his own interests. I don't see us following the traditional scope and sequence of any one curriculum provider.

 

How do I avoid the pitfalls of accepting less than his best? Maybe not me specifically, I imagine there are others out there are pondering the same issue.

 

I'm not sure we'll utilize co-ops, but what kind of questions should I ask? I would love to find the situation Kimber explained in the regulations thread, experts teaching children.

 

What classes are easiest to fall into the trap of accepting less? I would imagine science and writing are highest on the list. What else should I consider?

 

I guess what I'm asking (way before the coffee kicks in, btw) is what kind of markers do I keep in place for myself. I want to make sure my son's high school study is rigorous knowing his scope of study isn't going to follow any one plan. I want to keep my standards high, I'm the one that tends to give in at this point, not him.

I think WTM would keep the rigor, the only problem I see there is many people only follow some of WTM, so they could have holes. I think your specific combo will cover it all, though.

 

I think you start with the basics and then find the spots of rigor appropriate for your dc. I.e....look at your state reqt for science. Is it 3 years or 4? Is a lab required and if so, for how many years? I think this forum has a grip on what's rigorous curriculum wise, so fill in the rigor from here.

 

If you want to use a coop, find out what program they're using. How much of the program do they intend to utilize? Will there be homework and if so, to what extent? What are the expectations outside of the classroom? Who's teaching? What is their experience and if that is lacking, what do they do otherwise that would show their style or intensity? Will they give grades? How lenient are they about home work? Are they willing to dismiss students that don't participate in the class or by completing assignments? If they're not willing to answer the questions or give soft answers, expect a soft class. Have a cup of java with the teacher and ask about what they use at home. You have enough knowledge to see if there is rigor in his/her choices and it's perfectly appropriate to Know where you're placing your kiddo. Expect that you may offend someone by not choosing their class after your interview/cup of java. Some classes will not meet the mark.

 

If it's a college class, I think the lesson from the regulation thread is, don't assume a college class is gonna be rigorous or challenging. I'll repeat, have a cup of java w/ the teacher and ask to see the scope and sequence. Ask the same questions as above.

 

Honestly, ANY coop class can be "lesser" (I sound like such a snob :tongue_smilie:). Off the top, I think of the common ones: science, writing, literature, speech/debate

 

I think to avoid the "lesser" classes, you really have to KNOW what's being taught and compare it to your own standards. Remember, you can use such a class as your spine, then add your own measure to beef it up.

 

May I insert, please....the regulations thread was not so much about rigor, but about grade appropriate ;) Let's shoot for published materials intended for grade level, at the very least. I have no problems with using middle school materials for interest driven topic areas, but do not count them as high school credit. I'm completely okay with giving an average student an average text book education...so long as those texts are designed for the high school level. I will give my kiddos an "honors" education, but I don't think we'll attempt any AP classes, with one exception...I may put one kiddo in some b/c I am certain he's capable. The other 2 (can't even start thinking about high school yet for the others) aren't AP kids.

 

Finally, I'll share something I was told Monday night, regarding my eldest and his desires for a future in the military. We were thinking of college ROTC. He told us to shoot for West Point. "If you shoot for the top and fall short, at least you're closer to the top than if you were shooting for the middle." This is a retired Col with 4, yup 4 Phds; numerous military honors; raised 2 outstanding sons (military, medals, families, great jobs). He's going back to college next spring b/c he wants an associates in art b/c it's the one area he hasn't studied further...he's 67 years old.

 

So, we're shooting for the top and will push and push until we break. Then we'll pick up the pieces and figure out exactly where we need to be so we don't break anything that can't be repaired. AND we will do it joyfully or we won't bother.

[laughing lioness]

"If you shoot for the top and fall short, at least you're closer to the top than if you were shooting for the middle.".

 

I love that!

[elegantlion]

I think you're right about following the WTM for history/lit. It is rigorous and I don't think you can do better than that. High school has been VERY rigorous for my oldest. I choose one or two subjects a yr that I can teach rigorously. I choose Lit/Writing every yr and learn alll that I can about it myself so that I can become an expert teacher in that area.

 

To answer your ? better, I look at what my children want to go into, then I pick the best possible materials or classes that they will need to be ready to go into that field. Other classes that don't matter so much (for us this is history), I pay less attention to.

 

Michelle, Thank you, the bolded part is most helpful. I can see his interests and abilities piquing in waves. I want to try and utilize those crests, 1-2 subjects per year makes sense.

 

That's a good question. I think posting the schedule of courses here' date=' and curricula used, is a great way to get feedback. If there are gaps, or something seems not quite up to snuff - people will tell you. :) That helps as far as scope and content, but it's harder to know how to grade papers and what standards to hold as that's way more subjective.[/quote']

 

Teachin'Mine, That is what I appreciate about this board. I know I'll never get just empty agreement.

 

Keep it rigorous--but keep it real. That would be my advice.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that we are homeschoolers. We do not have to replicate public schools or the homeschooler down the street. I would occasional bend some of my book oriented demands to let his enthusiasm for a particular topic flow. For example, on days when his Archaeology magazine or Discover (the science magazine) would arrive in the mail, he would often drop everything for a 30 or 60 minute read. I had no problem with this. His textbooks were not going anywhere.

 

Similarly he had his volunteer work with the bird rehabber. If he chose to photograph a necropsy or help bandage an incoming "patient", I had no trouble letting him jump on his bike and go off to assist. This kind of thing enriched his academic experience while giving him interactions with adults outside of his home.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that my son could not maintain an around the clock academic program given his need for exercise and hands on activities. So I built in breaks--breaks from seat work as well as simple opportunities to get out of the house--so that when he was doing his book work he was focused. This gave me a break also so that I could ask myself whether my expectations were realistic.

 

It helped me to write general plans for the school year and then tweak them as the months went by. This did not mean that I was necessarily lowering my expectations but realizing that my son had acquired an interest along the way, something that could be pursued over something that I had previously planned.

 

Maybe we are not just holding our kids accountable here, but also holding ourselves accountable. And that means a regular evaluation of where we have been and where we want to go.

 

Best regards,

Jane

 

Jane, thank you. I do the bolded part now. I feel like I'm always tweaking. I'm fighting what I know is a character flaw in myself. In my own habits I tend to tweak and allow less, expect less of myself. My internal fear is that I will do this to my child, my one and only child. I know he will have the ability to astound me at some point and I never want to sell his abilities short.

 

I often think of you as we are doing Latin. I see the wonderful benefits of Latin study and have decided I'm keeping this non-negotiable for the remainder of our school years, like math. On those days when I question that commitment I am reminded of your sharing about Latin in your school.

 

I think a lot depends on how you define "rigorous" and whether you're talking about content, skills, or both. Do you want rigorous content in every subject across the board, or do you want him to do a few subjects at a really deep, advanced level and let some of the less interesting subjects (to him) get done in a check-the-box way? I envision that by the time DS graduates from HS, he'll be working at a college level in math and science, and probably a few areas of history (ancient/medieval), and at a graduate level in paleontology, but there are other subjects (American & modern history, literary analysis, econ & gov't, Spanish) that I'm fine about doing in a cover-the-basics-for-cultural-literacy sort of way (in terms of content).

 

 

I actually think it's more important that key skills are taught in a rigorous way — the ability to think logically & critically; the ability to write concise, engaging, well-organized papers; the ability to analyze and synthesize information; etc. Those skills will allow a student to study any subject, any time, at a rigorous level, as well as to get the most out of subjects they're not inherently interested in and want to get through as efficiently as possible.

 

Jackie

 

Jackie, that is one of the area I ponder a bit. What area will he need to rigorous and what I bolded is probably the most important to me. I can already see a few subject areas that will probably get used in a check-the-box fashion and I'm okay with that.

 

Again, this is where I fight myself. I wish his passions were more defined. It would be easier if there a curriculum the molded itself to quirky teen boys. Like Nan said I keep thinking of those clouds. But I don't want to stick him in a box either. I don't want his passions/interests/strong points to be in a box. Dh and I are very much individuals, different than our families, and we embrace that in our child.

 

Lots of mind games in my head lately. Thank you, you've given me more to ponder.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I think a lot depends on how you define "rigorous" and whether you're talking about content, skills, or both. Do you want rigorous content in every subject across the board, or do you want him to do a few subjects at a really deep, advanced level and let some of the less interesting subjects (to him) get done in a check-the-box way? I envision that by the time DS graduates from HS, he'll be working at a college level in math and science, and probably a few areas of history (ancient/medieval), and at a graduate level in paleontology, but there are other subjects (American & modern history, literary analysis, econ & gov't, Spanish) that I'm fine about doing in a cover-the-basics-for-cultural-literacy sort of way (in terms of content).

 

Lisa (Swimmermom) posted about a student she met who'd done AP English Lit and then promptly forgot everything he learned as soon as it was over. That seems like a huge waste of time to me — time that could have been better spent going deeper and doing original work in an area of interest. I think there's a danger in forcing kids to do every single subject, including those they have no interest in, at a super-rigorous level, because I don't think there will be much retention long term.

 

I actually think it's more important that key skills are taught in a rigorous way — the ability to think logically & critically; the ability to write concise, engaging, well-organized papers; the ability to analyze and synthesize information; etc. Those skills will allow a student to study any subject, any time, at a rigorous level, as well as to get the most out of subjects they're not inherently interested in and want to get through as efficiently as possible.

 

Jackie

:iagree:I'm using easy options for high school science (probably online, free, FL Virtual School) b/c I know they'll follow straight into dual enrollment and they're not entering science fields. It's easier for them to learn this from someone else and spending that extra time for rigor on the humanities (future lawyer), math (future engineer) and general education (future teacher).

[laughing lioness]

I wish his passions were more defined. QUOTE]

 

But he is young still. I am all about exposing kids to a vast number of experiences and activities, books and movies to see what "sparks" thier passions. And I push my kids in areas besides just academics (my 20 was desperately shy but I made her participate in the One Act. She now uses her acting experience to manage her people-phobia:)).

[JennW in SoCal]

How do you quantify keeping high school rigorous? I imagine following WTM would more than qualify. However, my son's high school career will probably look like a combination of WTM, LCC, and his own interests. I don't see us following the traditional scope and sequence of any one curriculum provider.

 

How do I avoid the pitfalls of accepting less than his best? Maybe not me specifically, I imagine there are others out there are pondering the same issue.

 

I'm not sure we'll utilize co-ops, but what kind of questions should I ask? I would love to find the situation Kimber explained in the regulations thread, experts teaching children.

 

What classes are easiest to fall into the trap of accepting less? I would imagine science and writing are highest on the list. What else should I consider?

 

I guess what I'm asking (way before the coffee kicks in, btw) is what kind of markers do I keep in place for myself. I want to make sure my son's high school study is rigorous knowing his scope of study isn't going to follow any one plan. I want to keep my standards high, I'm the one that tends to give in at this point, not him.

 

I have too many thoughts competing for space in my reply that I can't seem to organize them! Let me give this one more try....

 

Bottom line, the marker you keep in place for yourself is what kind of young adult do you want to turn loose into the world when he graduates? What kinds of dreams does he have? What unique needs does he have? If you keep those thoughts in the back of your mind you will continue to nudge him along and the worries about rigor will take care of themselves. The daily pesky details consume us to the point where we lose the big picture, and it causes us to panic needlessly.

 

I don't think rigor can be quantified. The Holy Grail of rigor, the AP course, really is not the ideal means of educating and enlightening. It does nothing more than teach kids how to efficiently memorize and regurgitate information. Sure you can get credit in some colleges and reduce the number of years it takes to get a degree, but it produces classrooms full of students who can't think for themselves, who don't know how to ask questions or formulate and defend opinions.

 

About outside classes. Sure there are some co-ops and outside classes with low standards and expectations. You can't always figure out before hand whether the class is fluff or challenging, and sometimes the fluff classes have other benefits -- the chance to see friends, the different viewpoints of a teacher, the chance for your teen to figure out for himself whether something is worth his time or not. An "expert" teacher is no guarantee of an excellent class. Sometimes you take a chance and drop the class, other times you stick with it and make the best out of it. Sometimes we moms just have to bite our tongues and let it slide. Not always, but sometimes.

 

My two boys have had very different high school courses of study, each unique to their strengths and weaknesses. Sure there are times I slacked off or they didn't do their best. We are human after all and quite fallible! If I were to post a sample of either of their semester schedules no doubt the "rigor police" here would tear it to shreds!!! But both boys are both quite successful in their endeavors outside of homeschooling. My youngest ds, for instance, beat out dozens of typical AP students to win a coveted internship.

 

So take heart and trust yourself!

[elegantlion]

We're doing opencourseware classes for our middleschoolers already. Those are free college level courses. We're also planning on doing some of the Great Courses. My college son did many of the Great Course offerings and those offered challenge and prep for college.

 

I need to venture more into the open courseware. Our budget is perpetually tight and I'm drooling over some Great Courses, but I want to invest into what will be the most useful for long overall.

 

From my psueo-rigorous perspective:

Have a course of study- we use a standard college-prep one.

We make full use of academic classes offered by "experts" whenever we can afford them, create them or find them.

 

My kids are committed to 0-debt through college so we've taken non-traditional routes for that. Test scores aren't ruling our world (even though I wish some of my kids would take them a bit more seriously;))

We've taken on-line classes- Latin through CLAA. I know there was a brewhaha about it, but the price is right and it's getting the job done.

 

Take advantadge of cool things that are available when they fit in to your overall vision. Ds is taking ballroom dancing (he needed FUN this fall!), he's participated in a One Act Play competition each year, we are fairly heavily involved in politics and TeenPact (they focus on rhetorical skills and leadership as well as government and have awesome alumni classes and leadership opportunities).

 

Roll with life. The house fire cooked our grits (along with most of our possessions) last year and we've worked our tails off and spent a boatload of money getting our house whipped back into shape. Ds has learned to drywall, lay tile, etc. etc. etc. this year. It's been a huge "distraction" from academics but it's what's been handed us and he has gained confidence in his ability to tackle projects a lot of adults won't.

 

And, as an aside, I gave up trying to keep up with my kids reading (you can see from my blog side-bar that I have read 0 classics this year) becasue I need a life outside of managing/raising/mentoring my kids. There are great study guides and sparknotes so that I can ask him rigorous questions without making his homework mine.

 

Thank you. We're moving to a new area and I'm looking forward to having more opportunities. Our budget is always an issue, but they are definitely more outlets for students where we are moving.

 

I worry a little about letting go completely with reading. I don't read everything he does, but I'm slowly working on the classics we'll get to in the next few years.

 

I think WTM would keep the rigor, the only problem I see there is many people only follow some of WTM, so they could have holes. I think your specific combo will cover it all, though.

 

I think you start with the basics and then find the spots of rigor appropriate for your dc. I.e....look at your state reqt for science. Is it 3 years or 4? Is a lab required and if so, for how many years? I think this forum has a grip on what's rigorous curriculum wise, so fill in the rigor from here.

 

If you want to use a coop, find out what program they're using. How much of the program do they intend to utilize? Will there be homework and if so, to what extent? What are the expectations outside of the classroom? Who's teaching? What is their experience and if that is lacking, what do they do otherwise that would show their style or intensity? Will they give grades? How lenient are they about home work? Are they willing to dismiss students that don't participate in the class or by completing assignments? If they're not willing to answer the questions or give soft answers, expect a soft class. Have a cup of java with the teacher and ask about what they use at home. You have enough knowledge to see if there is rigor in his/her choices and it's perfectly appropriate to Know where you're placing your kiddo. Expect that you may offend someone by not choosing their class after your interview/cup of java. Some classes will not meet the mark.

 

If it's a college class, I think the lesson from the regulation thread is, don't assume a college class is gonna be rigorous or challenging. I'll repeat, have a cup of java w/ the teacher and ask to see the scope and sequence. Ask the same questions as above.

 

Honestly, ANY coop class can be "lesser" (I sound like such a snob :tongue_smilie:). Off the top, I think of the common ones: science, writing, literature, speech/debate

 

I think to avoid the "lesser" classes, you really have to KNOW what's being taught and compare it to your own standards. Remember, you can use such a class as your spine, then add your own measure to beef it up.

 

So, we're shooting for the top and will push and push until we break. Then we'll pick up the pieces and figure out exactly where we need to be so we don't break anything that can't be repaired. AND we will do it joyfully or we won't bother.

 

Thank you, those questions give me a direction. I found some freshmen level college writing texts at a thrift store not long ago. I plan to use them in the next couple of years, I certainly think they are high school worthy, not college level.

 

My standard is going to be four years of history, science, math, English, and Latin. That's more than what is currently required in the state well be in when he graduates.

 

Again, thank you all. This board is awesome.

[Elizabeth in WA]

I don't think rigor can be quantified. The Holy Grail of rigor, the AP course, really is not the ideal means of educating and enlightening. It does nothing more than teach kids how to efficiently memorize and regurgitate information. Sure you can get credit in some colleges and reduce the number of years it takes to get a degree, but it produces classrooms full of students who can't think for themselves, who don't know how to ask questions or formulate and defend opinions.

 

While I agree that many AP courses are taught this way, I think it is an unfair characterization of the whole program. Like anything else, AP courses can be taught well or badly and can involve memorize regurgitate or understanding. It depends on the teacher and the student. I think students perceive it as easier to memorize and regurgitate because of the volume of information required in the time period. Good teachers will try to push students into more understanding. I think this has more to do with the volume and pace of information than an inherent bias toward brute memorization of information.

 

This issue also carries over into college coursework. In my own experiences, the second semester of calculus and of organic chemistry stand out as courses that many students approach as mass memorization exercises, but which are better approached by greater understanding. In organic chemistry, really understanding the behavior of electrons can help you work out what will happen in a reaction without having memorized exactly how each functional group interacts with every other functional group. But many many students will try the memorization route anyway. The problems with the memorization route come in with keeping all the information straight in the first place, and then in having serious difficulty with the next course in a sequence, which usually depends more on understanding than in remembering the details.

[FaithManor]

We are just getting our feet wet in M.I.T.'s opencourseware and it looks like it will be wonderful for our high school program.

 

Our standard is:

 

Algebra 1 (if not completed in 8th grade)

Geometry

Algebra 2

Trigonometry (if completed in 11th grade, then for 12th they have a choice of stats and analysis, calculus, or accounting depending on the natural interests of the child and it's possible that the first ds may not have as rigorous a time in trig as his older sister did because he is completely English, History, and Art oriented and completely NOT MATH BRAINED so we need to be careful just how much we torture him. He might only do about a semester of trig just to help out with ACT/SAT scores and have accounting because he is fascinated by business math/banking.)

 

Four years of English Literature and Composition - Great Books Study

 

Four Year of History - including a full credit of American Government not a half and this includes constitutional studies and time spent at the county courthouse job shadowing the county clerk, the township treasurer, the township property tax accessor, listening to at least two cases in civil court and one criminal case, plus an interview of a local judge.

 

Four years of science - Biology and Chem 1 are mandatory. Options of Chem 2, Physics 1, Physics 2, Anatomy and Physiology, Marine Biology, Astronomy, or Geology. Ds, the 8th grader, is not as science oriented as the rest of the family so we are looking at the Kitchen Chem courses from MIT for an extra 1/2 credit with chem 1 since he is not likely to choose chem 2. He is also VERY interested in geology and we are looking at an opencourseware class in geology for him.

 

Foreign Langauge - One year of high school Latin is mandatory at our house. Two years of a foreign modern language is required or three years of Latin. Options of a third year of a modern language or picking up a year of a second modern langauge are also possible.

 

1 Year of logic and Rhetoric

 

Bible and theology are studied heavily but not for credit. Our kids will also be heavily involved in 4-H projects that include leadership and travel opportunities, however, these are extra-curricular.

 

Electives come from a variety of sources but we are strict about how much work must be involved in order to earn a "carnegie credit".

 

We require 24 credits to graduate which is six more than the state of Michigan required. We also require a version of P.E. - ie. that each student pick an exercise program and stick with it fairly well. But, we don't give credit for it and that was not a problem for dd when she applied to college. I did include a page of notes with her transcript stating that we required a regular exercise program and that she probably exercised as much or more than her public school counterparts taking PE in school but that we didn't issue credit because we allowed her to make the choices of how, where, and when and did not heavily oversee the implementation thereof we just made sure she stuck with it.

 

Ds #1 (the second child) will probably fill out his electives with Art History, Art lessons combined with some sort of art curriculum, practical drafting, and an opencourseware class on mythology plus some history elective.

 

Ds #2 - ALL ABOUT VETERINARY SCIENCE - Will earn a credit of veterinary science...a dear friend who is a veterinarian assures me that he can use a college text for veterinary assistants along with volunteering in the practice, to devise a home implemented veterinary science credit. YEAH!

 

Ds #3 devours science... astronomy and physics in particular, so I am already downloading opencourseware classes for him and buying the relevant texts. Though he is only a 5th grader, he is gifted in science and it appears that he will be through advanced chem by the end of 8th grade so we will need the college stuff to fill out his high school path. Unfortunately, our local community colleges are ridiculously poor, notoriously awful, and the nearest university is a minimum 45 minute drive each direction (dd manages it just fine but she's 19 and he'll be 13 or 14 so I will be the one to have to do all of that driving and waiting for class to be over, etc.) so starting him in college early won't work. Additionally, he can handle an awful lot academically but the emotional maturity is a bit lagging so we don't feel he will be ready for the adult environment at so tender an age.

 

That's the current plan anyway.

 

Faith

[elegantlion]

I have too many thoughts competing for space in my reply that I can't seem to organize them! Let me give this one more try....

 

Bottom line, the marker you keep in place for yourself is what kind of young adult do you want to turn loose into the world when he graduates? What kinds of dreams does he have? What unique needs does he have? If you keep those thoughts in the back of your mind you will continue to nudge him along and the worries about rigor will take care of themselves. The daily pesky details consume us to the point where we lose the big picture, and it causes us to panic needlessly.

 

I don't think rigor can be quantified. The Holy Grail of rigor, the AP course, really is not the ideal means of educating and enlightening. It does nothing more than teach kids how to efficiently memorize and regurgitate information. Sure you can get credit in some colleges and reduce the number of years it takes to get a degree, but it produces classrooms full of students who can't think for themselves, who don't know how to ask questions or formulate and defend opinions.

 

 

So take heart and trust yourself!

 

The closer we get to high school, the less I trust my instincts. I didn't have a rigorous high school ed (public schooling), neither did dh. We both know what kind of person we want ds to become, but educational wise I'm not sure how to make some of that happen.

 

My experience was my parents left all the guessing up to me and I quit trying to find the answers and outlets to some of the things I really desired because I had NO help. Our guidance counselors were a joke. I met him once, to transfer a class. I keep reminding myself that even as a homeschooler we have so much more nowadays. There's the internet, this board, real educational outlets and while he may have to do some of the legwork to find them, I don't want him to feel alone along the way.

 

Good teachers will try to push students into more understanding. I think this has more to do with the volume and pace of information than an inherent bias toward brute memorization of information.

 

 

 

This is helpful too. It will help me ask more directed questions should we try to utilize a co-op in the future.

[elegantlion]

We are just getting our feet wet in M.I.T.'s opencourseware and it looks like it will be wonderful for our high school program.

 

Our standard is:

 

 

 

Electives come from a variety of sources but we are strict about how much work must be involved in order to earn a "carnegie credit".

 

We require 24 credits to graduate which is six more than the state of Michigan required. We also require a version of P.E. - ie. that each student pick an exercise program and stick with it fairly well. But, we don't give credit for it and that was not a problem for dd when she applied to college. I did include a page of notes with her transcript stating that we required a regular exercise program and that she probably exercised as much or more than her public school counterparts taking PE in school but that we didn't issue credit because we allowed her to make the choices of how, where, and when and did not heavily oversee the implementation thereof we just made sure she stuck with it.

 

Faith

 

I didn't quote your whole post but most of what you've planned is also in our schedule. I am requiring 4 years of Latin however. Possibly Japanese as a modern language, should he desire to continue with it.

 

The notes on electives were helpful. I keep reminding myself that I had a choice in school on many electives, ds will get a choice too. I could easily book his entire high school existence and he'd graduate at age 25 with 3000 credits if we explored everything I want for him.

 

The info on the PE is helpful. Our state, and in turn many colleges, require one year of PE on the transcript. I'd like to not make it a credit class, but use it for an extra curricular. You're wording makes perfect sense.