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This may be crazy, but has anyone put a 6th grader in pre-algebra?


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I have two older kids that struggle with math, but my youngest really excels. He is 11yo and about 1/4 of the way through Saxon 76, making 100's on a regular basis. He doesn't complain of being bored - just says its kind of easy. After watching my older two struggle when they hit algebra, I'm a little cautious, but this child is different. He just seems to "get it", and not just math - grammar, logic, science, writing, etc...

 

Any suggestions?

Should I move him ahead?

Maybe a diffierent curriculum that moves more quickly?

 

I gave up on Saxon for my older boys - not enough explanation for them and too much jumping around - and moved them to Lial. Don't know anything about Lial before the pre-algebra level.

 

Thanks,

MommyThrice

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How long is it taking him to do a lesson? Saxon says it should take about an hour a day - including mental math and math facts. Based on that, my dd did two lessons a day in 6/5 and 7/6 because they were taking her only a half hour each. We didn't skip anything. The beginning of the Saxon books are typically easy because they're review. As has been mentioned, you can give him just the tests, and if he gets 80 to 85 percent, then keep going with the tests. When he drops below that, then start there with the lessons. We didn't do this because I really wanted to make sure dd had a good foundation, and I just couldn't see "wasting" a book that way. :tongue_smilie: The Saxon books were the most expensive books, by far, that I had bought at that time as we had just used inexpensive math workbooks before then.

 

If he does two lessons a day, he will complete both 7/6 and 8/7 in a year, and assuming he does well, will be ready for algebra next year. :) Thankfully no one told me that my dd was too young to do what she did. I also didn't know that Algebra 1/2 wasn't necessary after 8/7, so it was a surprise to me that she'd be doing algebra when she did.

 

If you have been doing a program other than Saxon, or Singapore, I think it's really important to cover all of 8/7 especially since the geometry is integrated throughout the book. Most other math programs don't go to the same level with this.

 

You can also have him take the math placement test on Saxon's site. It's good info to have, but for us, I chose to put her into 6/5 even though she tested into higher levels. Having done a mishmash of workbooks, I was afraid there would be gaps. I think the repetition at that level is really good for a strong foundation too.

 

HTH :)

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My son was a 5th grader when he did pre-algebra. Now in officially 7th grade (although I consider him an 8th grader), he's doing Algebra 2 with ArtOfProblemSolving.com

 

 

Don't slow a kid down if the kid shows signs of boredom, or if the kid requests a faster speed. Feed the kid what the kid needs!

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I don't think it's unheard of. When I was in school, I didn't even do pre-algebra and went straight to algebra 1 in 7th. It was a new, accelerated program that the school was implementing. Ideally, we were supposed to finish algebra 1 in a year and a half, then start into geometry. By 9th, hit geometry honors at a much more advanced pace and depth. Unfortunately, it didn't quite work that way since our teacher was promoted, but we still did algebra 1 in 7th.

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Elegant Lion - how is the algebra going? What curriculum are you using?

 

Teachin Mine - His lessons (we do odds only) take about 15 minutes. Today he did test #7 (all problems on tests) in 15 minutes and made 100. He's looked ahead in his book and says he doesn't see anything new.

 

Really, until you get into algebra (or pre-algebra), math only consists of add/subtract/multiply/divide/fractions/decimals. Am I missing anything?

 

So, what would be the best curriculum for a mathy child?

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Around here even in ps math talented kids do Alg 1 in 7th grade. Your son would be normal in that group. Both my older two did it without any issues at all - scored well and have gone on and done well in math. My youngest is not as math talented, plus got a bad start on the basics when our ps switched curriculum, so he did Alg 1 in 8th (normal around here for normal math kids).

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Elegant Lion - how is the algebra going? What curriculum are you using?

 

 

 

We're using a combination of LoF Beginning Algebra with a 1960s Dolciani. We're off to a slow start of school, we're only on week five, but it's been a smooth start. This may be the first year we've done math without much weeping and he even asks to do algebra. We're also using the videos from Khan Academy,.

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Around here even in ps math talented kids do Alg 1 in 7th grade. Your son would be normal in that group.

 

:iagree: My 11 year old is going through Dolciani's Accelerated Pre-Algebra, but he is in ps, 5th grade. He wanted to move ahead, so he picked a book I had lying around. He hasn't hit a wall yet, but we're going slowly.

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Not crazy at all.

My 6th grader is currently doing algebra (Art of Problem Solving). He was bored doing arithmetic, had a really good grasp on concepts and was not challenged. He went through Saxon 8/7 in five months in 5th grade (we combined lessons and reduced practice problems). yes, I am a heretic - but it was sufficient for him to master the concepts.

My DD did algebra 1 and half of algebra 2 in 7th grade.

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Dd10 (fifth grade) is finishing a run through pre-algebra topics now. She should be starting with Art of Problem Solving Intro Algebra by Thanksgiving. She's also doing some geometry using Patty Paper Geometry and some competition math (MOEMS and MathCounts books).

 

Math is the main reason we are homeschooling. I afterschooled her for two years while she was in private school. This year we've reviewed all fractions, decimals and percents, have done ratios and proportions, unit conversions, scientific notation, dimension analysis, negative numbers, mean/median/mode, and oodles and oodles of word problems from multiple sources. She's moving into simplifying variables. We have yet to cover exponents beyond squares, cubes and scientific notation and she hasn't done any graphing at all.

 

I expect to take our time working through the AoPS Intro to Algebra text :)

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Just when I think I have homeschooling figured out, I get a child thats totally different.

 

Ah yes... the joys and downfalls of being able to cater a child's education to his/her needs.. You gotta start from scratch each time.

I bought all Singapore levels (from 1 to 6) with double workbooks, so each child would have his and her own. Well, DD just *could not* handle Singapore maths.

 

She's now in MUS, and happy as can be.

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Teachin Mine - His lessons (we do odds only) take about 15 minutes. Today he did test #7 (all problems on tests) in 15 minutes and made 100. He's looked ahead in his book and says he doesn't see anything new.

 

Really, until you get into algebra (or pre-algebra), math only consists of add/subtract/multiply/divide/fractions/decimals. Am I missing anything?

 

So, what would be the best curriculum for a mathy child?

 

Saxon is an awesome program for a "mathy" child! My dd found 7/6 not that much different from 6/5 and 8/7 not that different from 7/6, until the last 30 lessons or so. At the end of 8/7 they introduce a whole lot of new concepts.

 

I know that what he's doing is easy now, but I still wouldn't recommend doing only odds. Sounds like he'd take only a half hour to do a lesson, so let him do two complete ones a day, or do the tests to find out where in the book you should begin. Even if he gets the 80 to 85 pct right, watch for any patterns of wrong answers and do the lessons that have that info. In other words, you don't want to start algebra with anything short of a solid foundation. My dd loved algebra, but it was definitely a step up from the earlier books, and would have been challenging if she wasn't strong in the fractions, decimals, etc..

 

Saxon is a great program, and if your son is finding it easy, I'm not sure why you'd want to switch. Math shouldn't be hard. Challenging - yes, but hard no. Just my thoughts.

 

I would highly recommend doing more than 15 minutes of math a day, no matter what level he's working on. :)

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Dc. did Lial's Basic Mathematics which is a prealgebra course in 5th and 6th grades and moved onto Foerster's Algebra I in 7th grade without a problem. HTH!

 

Oh, a question...

I've found organizing Lial's exercises a little confusing. How are you doing this?

In algebra we're spending two days on most lessons, 2-3 days on review, tests usually take one day. Is that close to what you're doing?

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My son is in school part time. He is mathematically gifted and is taking algebra this year in 6th. That is unusual at his school but it is not at all unusual for the kids to test in to algebra in 7th grade. Its a small school and they have a great grade 4-6 math teacher who teaches the top half of the students. Because she gives them a strong math background her students are often ready for algebra in 7th.

 

I would encourage you to do it. You can always take more time to cover things if you need it. That is what is so great about homeschooling.

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My dd did Saxon Algebra 1/2 at 11 and is on par to finish Algebra I & II just before her 13th birthday. If he likes it and is doing well, let him fly! :001_smile:

 

I had to teach Saxon for that one year, because I was teaching it as a group, but I would not use it otherwise with a child who "got" math quickly. It was tortuous for both my dd and me.

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Can you tell me which Khan Academy videos your recommend for beginning algebra?

 

We've been slowly working through the ones labeled for Algebra. There are also worked problems if they need more coverage. Further down on the site there are some videos for developmental math and basic arithmetic that could be helpful.

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I have not read any of the other posts, but we did have our dd in pre-algebra in 6th grade. She completed algebra I about a month ago and is now doing just fine in geometry. She naturally picks up new math concepts fairly easily, so we just keep rolling along. We'll slow down when and if she needs to, but otherwise I say go for it. :001_smile:

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So, what would be the best curriculum for a mathy child?

 

 

My son is very gifted in math. While he started out with Saxon (had the program from dd) we quickly switched to Singapore Math. Not only does he complete the regular workbook exercises, he also enjoys the Challenging Word problems.

 

This is also the first year that we enrolled him in Stanford's EPGY program. He loves the challenge and I have to admit that the Singapore way of logical thinking helps him a lot.

 

This being said, dd also participates in EPGY and she has only used Saxon. I do not think it is wrong to have a student progress faster, but I think it wiser to first challenge the child by using another, more demanding program or provide supplemental exercises.

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My DD10 is doing a run through Prealgebra with Chalkdust right now. I imagine she will start Algebra I by spring. She was ready last year but I was worried about long term outcome, math comes easy, but isn't her favorite subject like some mathy kids. We played around with other things instead so it is moving pretty quickly this year. :)

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I put my 11 year old sixth grader in algebra last year. He was also finishing up Singapore 6 at home, which is a pre-algebra level program. He's continuing with algebra this year (w/ an outside teacher) and we're doing Russian Math 6 at home for drill and review. It's a very sound pre-algebra program.

 

http://perpendicularpress.com/

 

Life of Fred is also sound programming for younger kids who are very math oriented.

Edited by mcconnellboys
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I wanted to add that, years ago, I read a book called Math Coach, by a cognitive behavioral psychologist, or something like that, and he says that, in his experience, there is not necessarily a particular level of brain development that is necessary to move forward in math. He believes that language and math development differ in this regard.

 

I am throwing this out because when my daughter was flying through early levels of math, everyone said that she would get to a point that she would not be sufficiently mature to handle higher level mathematical reasoning. The Math Coach guy said it wouldn't happen, and he was right. He strongly advocates (advocated--he has since died) speeding through everything before Algebra and then taking math in its normal speed and sequence, with lots of competitions and math enrichment on top of it.

 

Perhaps I heeded his advice so faithfully because it is what I wanted to hear, but speeding through everything before Algebra I and then taking one course/school year has turned out to be 100% the right thing for us.

 

Terri

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My oldest son was in Algebra II and Geometry concurrently in 6th grade. He was doing pre-algebra in 4th.

He's my only kid who got math that way. I let him progress when he was able and he never hit a wall with any of it.

If I were you, I'd continue with whatever is working. You might also consider adding in a supplement for extra content, if your 11 yo enjoys it.

 

You can see what my son did here:

http://www.guesthollow.com/homeschool/reviews/reviewmatharticle.html

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My middle child was 11 when she started pre-algebra.
Mine too. She did Saxon 76 when she was 10. She didn't like it AT all, so we moved to a different curriculum, but she knew the concepts well.

 

I think differently than some in that I don't think Saxon is good for mostly Mathy kids. I think it's more for certain learning styles. My oldest ds and my dd were mathy, but they couldn't stand Saxon! THey did better with other curriculums!

 

I'd look for a curriculum that fits your child's learning style at the level they work best at. I agree with some of the others that many/some kids are just ready to move forward! If it doesn't work out you can switch things up or slow down to meet his needs!

 

Best wishes!

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My son finished MUS Zeta (and had done a smattering of Saxon and Singapore also) at the end of 4th grade and started with Jacobs Algebra in 5th. He did the first half as a prealgebra course during his 5th grade year and finished the book in 6th grade.

 

However, the first 1/4 to 1/3 of Saxon books is review and kids tend to find it easy, particularly if they just finished the previous Saxon book.

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I haven't read all the responses, but here's our experience.

 

My oldest was done with pre-algebra in early 5th grade. We tried algebra. It just didn't go over. It was awful! He couldn't grasp the concepts. So, we back tracked for a while going over percentages and decimals again. Then, went to the Keys to series for a while. Finally, we found Teaching Textbooks in 6th. He did fine. Then, we went on to Lial's algebra in 7th. He did fine.

 

He's now in 9th grade and taking pre-calculus at the local community college next semester. He already took College Algebra, geometry and trig. He'll take calculus in 10th grade at the CC.

 

So, if it doesn't work out, don't panic. Slow down. Find a different program. Enjoy!

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I wanted to add that, years ago, I read a book called Math Coach, by a cognitive behavioral psychologist, or something like that, and he says that, in his experience, there is not necessarily a particular level of brain development that is necessary to move forward in math. He believes that language and math development differ in this regard.

 

I am throwing this out because when my daughter was flying through early levels of math, everyone said that she would get to a point that she would not be sufficiently mature to handle higher level mathematical reasoning. The Math Coach guy said it wouldn't happen, and he was right. He strongly advocates (advocated--he has since died) speeding through everything before Algebra and then taking math in its normal speed and sequence, with lots of competitions and math enrichment on top of it.

 

 

Terri

 

Terri, do you have any more info on this book? I'd love to read it. It sounds like it meshes perfectly with our personal philosophy. Thanks!

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He strongly advocates (advocated--he has since died) speeding through everything before Algebra and then taking math in its normal speed Terri

Terri, I personally do not see why you need to adjust your kids' learning math to the normal speed upon reaching Algebra. Although post-Algebra would be more complex, but not exactly that abstract, at least up to AP Calculus BC in high school. Without his advice, you could have tried yourself to allow your homeschooled son to learn at the fast speed as usual. One of my kid is in 8th, does AP Calculus BC in our public high school with 5 to 6 years older kids. This is an one academic year course in school. She just wishes that she could do it at her fast speed freely. At such uniform speed, she puts as little effort as possible on it.

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My younger child started Saxon Algebra 1 in the fifth grade. It was our first year homeschooling. We didn't finish the book, curriculum hopped a bit, and then returned to it.

 

My favorite curriculums for math are Saxon and the Aufmann texts. The Aufmann texts are geared towards remedial adults and have a LOT of word problems. You can get older copies dirt cheap at amazon.

 

I also scoured every website and math catalog I could find on algebra manipulatives.

 

New York was starting a new integrated math program and had some free stuff online, that I liked.

 

Some kids are ready early. I learned there was a LOT of high school maths to learn without rushing to calculus. Just tons and tons of stuff to keep them busy, that traditional students do not have time to cover.

 

My child ended out in a 2 year CC due to our finances, and unless he wanted to travel to another campus was only offered algebra, which he took to fulfill his math requirement :-0

 

If i'd been able to see the future, I would have still put him in algebra 1 in the fifth grade, but we would have had more fun, and taken even more side trips and never have bothered to stress over trying to teach ourselves calculus. I would have stopped at trig and moved sideways, not up.

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Terri, do you have any more info on this book? I'd love to read it. It sounds like it meshes perfectly with our personal philosophy. Thanks!

 

The book is here:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Math-Coach-Parents-Helping-Children/dp/B000BPG22O/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1288350572&sr=1-2

 

If that doesn't work, the authors' last names are Wickelgren (father and daughter).

 

Terri

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Terri, I personally do not see why you need to adjust your kids' learning math to the normal speed upon reaching Algebra. Although post-Algebra would be more complex, but not exactly that abstract, at least up to AP Calculus BC in high school. Without his advice, you could have tried yourself to allow your homeschooled son to learn at the fast speed as usual. One of my kid is in 8th, does AP Calculus BC in our public high school with 5 to 6 years older kids. This is an one academic year course in school. She just wishes that she could do it at her fast speed freely. At such uniform speed, she puts as little effort as possible on it.

 

Because she's 12 and spends 20 hours a week at the gym and 8 in the ballet studio. I don't see the point of making her do pre-calculus in a semester just because she can.

 

Terri

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I wanted to add that, years ago, I read a book called Math Coach, by a cognitive behavioral psychologist, or something like that, and he says that, in his experience, there is not necessarily a particular level of brain development that is necessary to move forward in math. He believes that language and math development differ in this regard.

 

I am throwing this out because when my daughter was flying through early levels of math, everyone said that she would get to a point that she would not be sufficiently mature to handle higher level mathematical reasoning. The Math Coach guy said it wouldn't happen, and he was right. He strongly advocates (advocated--he has since died) speeding through everything before Algebra and then taking math in its normal speed and sequence, with lots of competitions and math enrichment on top of it.

 

Perhaps I heeded his advice so faithfully because it is what I wanted to hear, but speeding through everything before Algebra I and then taking one course/school year has turned out to be 100% the right thing for us.

 

Terri

 

The maturity that we found was most important when doing algebra didn't have anything to do with understanding the math itself. It had to do with housekeeping issues: writing out all the steps carefully, accurately, legibly, and without complaint.

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The maturity that we found was most important when doing algebra didn't have anything to do with understanding the math itself. It had to do with housekeeping issues: writing out all the steps carefully, accurately, legibly, and without complaint.

 

I'm still waiting on this from my 15 year old!!!

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Because she's 12 and spends 20 hours a week at the gym and 8 in the ballet studio.

Terri

You mentioned early that Ă¢â‚¬Å“He strongly advocates speeding through everything before Algebra and then taking math in its normal speedĂ¢â‚¬ Ă¢â‚¬Â¦Ă¢â‚¬Â¦Ă¢â‚¬Â¦. I have expected to hear your thought why you also agreed with the man. So your daughter slowed speed down after reaching Algebra because of her personal intensive gym/ballet schedule, not because of the manĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s advice to do post-Algebra math at the normal speed?Ă¢â‚¬Â¦Ă¢â‚¬Â¦.Well, everyone has own comfortable math learning speed, and I would say just follow such speed all the time accordingly. Sure you would proceed slower some times if there is more complex and/or abstract. Reaching Algebra is not exactly turning point. IMHO, you do not need to assume that you have to intentionally slow down after reaching Algebra.

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You mentioned early that Ă¢â‚¬Å“He strongly advocates speeding through everything before Algebra and then taking math in its normal speedĂ¢â‚¬ Ă¢â‚¬Â¦Ă¢â‚¬Â¦Ă¢â‚¬Â¦. I have expected to hear your thought why you also agreed with the man.

 

I read quickly through the thread, but I got the impression the author said to slow down to normal speed *and* add math competitions and other areas of math not normally studied in high school.

 

Anyway, maybe I was reading what I wanted to read because this is what we're planning to do. With Art of Problem Solving, they have more classes than just the standard high school classes. Introduction to Counting, and Introduction to Number Theory (and their intermediate levels), plus preparations for math competitions. Adding those math in would definitely slow down someone to 'normal' speed.

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The maturity that we found was most important when doing algebra didn't have anything to do with understanding the math itself. It had to do with housekeeping issues: writing out all the steps carefully, accurately, legibly, and without complaint.

 

That's an interesting distinction (housekeeping versus math readiness) and an excellent point. I've always wondered why so many parents report that kids are just not ready for Algebra or whatever, due to maturity issues, but I am sure you are right that is often a significant part of the issue.

 

Terri

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I read quickly through the thread, but I got the impression the author said to slow down to normal speed *and* add math competitions and other areas of math not normally studied in high school.

 

Anyway, maybe I was reading what I wanted to read because this is what we're planning to do. With Art of Problem Solving, they have more classes than just the standard high school classes. Introduction to Counting, and Introduction to Number Theory (and their intermediate levels), plus preparations for math competitions. Adding those math in would definitely slow down someone to 'normal' speed.

 

Yes, this is also my understanding of what he advocates. Everything before Algebra I is basic arithmetic, so speeding through that gives the student time to do more math--broader, deeper, whatever floats your boat-- before college.

 

Terri

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Yes, I have. I also like to have my dc do Algebra 1 twice, although so far only my eldest has done that. With my second dd, I waited a year from when she had done pre-Algebra & had her do Russian math; she started Algebra shortly before she turned 12, which would have been gr 6 in ps.

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That's an interesting distinction (housekeeping versus math readiness) and an excellent point. I've always wondered why so many parents report that kids are just not ready for Algebra or whatever, due to maturity issues, but I am sure you are right that is often a significant part of the issue.

 

Terri

 

 

I disagree with that author. In order to really understand the logic and theory of Algebra the logic centre of the brain does have to be developing. As has been discussed on this forum in the past, there is Algebra and Algebra. A good example of Algebra would be the Algebra by Gelfand & Shem. Most dc don't have that at 11, but a few do. The problems are very long and more complex than in your standard Algebra texts, but the theory is fabulous. That said, maturity is also an issue.

 

I also agree that just because a dc has the ability to do something quickly doesn't mean that that's the best decision for that child. The example of a dc dancing 20 hours a week is a great eg of this--that's a huge time commitment and is obviously a passion.

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