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#51 Gooblink

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 04:51 PM

The greatest advantage of home education (it seems to me) is to be able to interact with ones children. Claiming you can spend 15 minutes a day on their education, and the SELLING that educational model to other parents, is an irresponsible and dangerous take on education in my book.

I could not have greater contempt for an approach that that that advocated b Art Robinson.

Bill



That's interesting, as it seems exactly the approach that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, to name a couple, took to their own education. :)

As far as Robinson claiming that anyone who follows his method will have great results, that's not true. He specifically states that he CANNOT guarantee what will work for another family, but only relate what worked for his. That's why he includes the bit about avoiding sugar - not that avoiding sugar is some magic bullet, but that was one of the ways HIS family chose to live and it may or may not have affeced their education.

#52 1Togo

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:31 PM

Dr. R spent huge amounts of time with his children. His children were (and still are) an integral part of his life. They were first his students, and they are now his colleagues. They are a close and loving family. Dr. R's oldest son is running his political campaign, but the entire family is working together on it and causing quite a stir for the incumbent. As regards the actual curriculum, Dr. R and his children put together an educational plan that worked for their family. Selling the plan was as much the children's idea as his.

I have been reading WTM and listening to SWB's lectures, and while SWB advocates a different path to achieve student independence, she also promotes independence at the high school level. I can't remember whether it was in the book or on one of the lectures, but she mentions 15 minutes of input for every hour of student work at the rhetoric level. That's 75 minutes of involvement for a six hour (approximately), academic day. Not really a lot of teaching. Eventually, most students stand alone for their academics. That's a good thing. However, that doesn't mean the parent isn't involved in their child's life. The involvement changes. Also, in Jessie Wise's lecture, "If I Could Do It Over...", she describes the achievements of Susan and her siblings at various stages of their education, but I never thought of it as bragging. Rather, I was intrigued and inspired by the focus and order of their lives. I have learned from Jessie Wise and Susan Wise Bauer just as I have learned from Dr. Robinson and others.

Edited by 1Togo, 24 October 2010 - 06:44 PM.

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#53 8FillTheHeart

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 06:50 PM

The greatest advantage of home education (it seems to me) is to be able to interact with ones children. Claiming you can spend 15 minutes a day on their education, and the SELLING that educational model to other parents, is an irresponsible and dangerous take on education in my book.

I could not have greater contempt for an approach that that that advocated b Art Robinson.

Bill


While I am a firm believer of discussion/interaction with my kids, I think Robinson's approach is preferable to handing kids worksheets and telling them to complete them on their own. I guess you could say that all "working independently" is not equal. RC's independent approach is at least intellectually stimulating with complicated vocabulary. ETA: I see his approach as having a lot of research into its selections. I wonder if a consistent exposure to a program like his might not actually be more favorable than flip-flopping through lots of curriculum.

I think there are lots of other approaches that are far less edifying. (ditto sheet fill in the blank approach ranks way up there for me. :tongue_smilie:)

So does "Which book do you recommend for phonics, spelling, math. language arts, science, history that my Ker can do independently." :lol:

Edited by 8FillTheHeart, 24 October 2010 - 06:55 PM.

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#54 coffeegal

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 07:51 PM

While I am a firm believer of discussion/interaction with my kids, I think Robinson's approach is preferable to handing kids worksheets and telling them to complete them on their own.


What I found interesting, when I was looking into the Robinson's curriculum / self-teaching approach several years ago, was that the families who had the greatest success admitted to having many discussions with their children. For example, one lady spoke of washing dishes with her dd and the many discussions they had, some of which included what dd was studying. I've noticed the same thing on this board, families whose children seem to do the best have many discussions with their children. Some families prefer a structured discussion during school hours; others prefer informal discussions elsewhere. The important thing appears to be that discussions happen at sometime and place. :)
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#55 Spy Car

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 08:29 PM

SWB mentions 15 minutes of input for every hour of student work at the rhetoric level. That's 75 minutes of involvement for a six hour (approximately), academic day. Not really a lot of teaching.


In contrast Art Robinsons says (quoting his website):

"Dr. Robinson has spent less than 15 minutes per day teaching all six children ages 6 through 18."

That is 2.5 minutes per child per day. The lack of involvement is the "selling point" of this re-packaged assortment of public domain materials. Again, quoting his website:

"This teaching program requires almost no teacher interaction."

2.5 minutes a day is what I would call not a lot of teaching. Robinson thinks this this is a good idea, and one he can SELL to parents. I'd say, "buyer beware."

Bill

Edited by Spy Car, 25 October 2010 - 09:43 AM.


#56 4blessingmom

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 10:57 PM

In contrast Art Robinsons says (quoting his website):

"Dr. Robinson has spent less than 15 minutes per day teaching all six children ages 6 through 18."

That is 2.5 minutes per child per day. The lack of involvement is the "selling point" of this re-packaged assortment of public domain materials. Again, quoting his website:

"This teaching program requires almost no teacher interaction."

2.5 minutes a day is what I would call not a lot of teaching. Robinson this this is a good idea, and one he can SELL to parents. I'd say, "buyer beware."

Bill


I don't own RC so I don't really have a dog in this fight...except that if something were to happen to me I would hope my dh would take his example and do the same for our dc.

Good, better, best...I think my plan for our HS is the very best we can offer our dc. If something happened to me, independent school work while daddy works is better than good. kwim. Who knows, there may come a time when I have to bring in some serious income and RC style schooling might be a necessity...and I just may find that my dc learn more without as much of my input. What is the CM quote about not coming between a child and a book???

From the modern English paraphrased version:

"Disciplinary Devices must not come between Children and the Soul of the Book.––These few hints by no means cover the disciplinary uses of a good school-book; but let us be careful that our disciplinary devices, and our mechanical devices to secure and tabulate the substance of knowledge, do not come between the children and that which is the soul of the book, the living thought it contains."


Perhaps there is more value in giving a child the time and space to wrestle with good books than in hours of instruction?
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#57 Spy Car

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:38 PM

I don't own RC so I don't really have a dog in this fight...except that if something were to happen to me I would hope my dh would take his example and do the same for our dc.

Good, better, best...I think my plan for our HS is the very best we can offer our dc. If something happened to me, independent school work while daddy works is better than good. kwim. Who knows, there may come a time when I have to bring in some serious income and RC style schooling might be a necessity...and I just may find that my dc learn more without as much of my input. What is the CM quote about not coming between a child and a book???

From the modern English paraphrased version:

"Disciplinary Devices must not come between Children and the Soul of the Book.––These few hints by no means cover the disciplinary uses of a good school-book; but let us be careful that our disciplinary devices, and our mechanical devices to secure and tabulate the substance of knowledge, do not come between the children and that which is the soul of the book, the living thought it contains."


Perhaps there is more value in giving a child the time and space to wrestle with good books than in hours of instruction?


I just have to disagree Paula. I think this is a "siren song" aimed at fleecing full-time homeschooling mothers who want to believe they can give their children a good education without their active involvement. One of the many (many) things Art Robinson has wrong.

Bill

#58 joyofsix

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 06:16 AM

I don't use RC. I've never even looked into it but
1) It probably depends on the child. I would have loved it if people just told me what they wanted done and let me be. Then I could have done what I wanted the rest of the time. I would still love it. Obviously others would hate it. Probably the kids who wanted to make posters and be read to and create newspapers and ....you get the idea.

2) I would think any decent parent would be interacting with their children in many ways through the days ie. discussions while washing dishes. If not the problem probably isn't the curriculum but the parenting.

#59 1Togo

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 09:34 AM

Actually, Dr. Robinson provided input where needed. He didn't need to provide input on grammar because the textbooks (two levels) are written for self-instruction and there is an answer key. He didn't need to provide input on vocabulary because there are flashcards to memorize, exercises with answer keys, and the software has a computer quiz function. He didn't need to provide input on math because Saxon can be self-taught. We have graduated two students who did this and have a third student working successfully through Saxon. So, he provided input on the one subject that is difficult to self-teach -- writing. The children wrote papers, and Dr. R provided input. Eventually, the children were strong writers and didn't want input. Dr. Robinson writes about trying to stop their work on one occasion in order to discuss one of the finer points of the English language. They listened politely, but indicated they wanted to continue with their own work. However, a person can improve their writing without a teacher. Ben Franklin did this. After reading the RC list, etc., the Robinson children began to self-study for AP tests, which they passed by the dozens. Dr. Robinson also includes suggestions for other reading in the Course Overview, including The Overnight Student, a book which explains outlining as a study tool. The entire RC plan is quite simple. Many families follow it to the letter and have great success. Other families add a few subjects for high school if their students are not going the AP route or writing instruction if the parents do not know how to provide input.

Edited by 1Togo, 25 October 2010 - 09:45 AM.

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#60 Supertechmom

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:02 AM

In contrast Art Robinsons says (quoting his website):

"Dr. Robinson has spent less than 15 minutes per day teaching all six children ages 6 through 18."

That is 2.5 minutes per child per day. The lack of involvement is the "selling point" of this re-packaged assortment of public domain materials. Again, quoting his website:

"This teaching program requires almost no teacher interaction."

2.5 minutes a day is what I would call not a lot of teaching. Robinson thinks this this is a good idea, and one he can SELL to parents. I'd say, "buyer beware."

Bill



Believe it or not, the educational establishment has brainwashed most people in this country to believe that one can not learn without a teacher. The truth is once you put in the time to teach a child intermediate reading (the level most children need to be at to start the Robinson curriculum as their early readers are way above the norm) and basic math, there is no reason to "teach" the child. "teach" him study habits, how to outline a book, how to take notes, how to get the most out of his reading but to "teach" the concepts - Not necessary. Teach the child when he is ready to developmentally learn the concepts and the time required is minimal.

My oldest scored 650 on the SAT Math at age 12. Since teaching math facts and basic math at 3 and 4, I've probably spent no more than 1 hour a week "teaching" math to him. Most of that time is spent correcting his work ( I still do that as my way to keep up with what he is doing) His brother who is not a mathy child has the same record but hasn't taken the SAT yet. IN fact he is right now, following RC's philosophy by reading the SINGAPORE 5a Chapter 4, doing the oral problems - written so I can check the answers- and then moving on to the exercises. His typical rate of misses for Primary, CPW, and IP (yes he does all three every day along with KEYS to books) is roughly 3 problems. Out of all the books, 3 wrong with absolute no input from me. I follow RC's advise by not explaining the wrong problems but by asking him to review the problems. His mistake on most days jump out and he self corrects without any explanation from me.

The oldest at 13 and 8th grade is reading Jacob's geometry Chapter 12( I think) - a book he has nearly finished in a little over 4 months. HE did struggle with Geometry. I "taught" him by handing him my College Geometry book, Keys to geometry, Khan academy videos, and guiding him to the chapters that he didn't understand and the concepts that he needed to review. We've spent more time on that book learning how to duplicate the proofs than anything else. ( I make him do the proofs like the answer key - Then he dissects his proof and makes sure that the way he wrote it out is mathematically correct and logical) But did I spend an hour or two everyday holding his hand and reading the text to him and going through long drawn out lectures? NOPE!

I did listen to the naysayers and change my approach by using TWTM. I regret that as their skills in everything but math have slipped. The oldest now considers most books to be "hard" because the reading is not as rigorous as RC. The middle's writing is weak because I didn't require copywork but instead used R&S only. And he has lost his independence in learning. Their history and science nose dived as I used SOTW instead of just reading history as we had done before. We are going back to Rc book list and philosophy. We are going back to go the libray and pick out something from history, science, art, lit, non fiction, crafts, and adult section and read them.

I do see holes in RC. But every curriculum has holes. That's why I'm hanging onto R&s, latin, and logic and the great book study. And I love her notebooks as I need that for "proof" in my state. But we are changing this week back to Rc. I'll keep the good from TWTM but Rc will run the show. I given each enough years to see the benefits of both and the weakness of both and RC's "less is more" wins. It produces better writers and far more independent students who are confident and comfortable in their ability to tackle any subject and master it IMHO. TWTM does a good job but seems to create way more "busy " work for mom than RC in the younger years (middle and down) without producing a better student. On the older level (high school) they are pretty similar in technique.
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#61 Supertechmom

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:49 AM

I just have to disagree Paula. I think this is a "siren song" aimed at fleecing full-time homeschooling mothers who want to believe they can give their children a good education without their active involvement. One of the many (many) things Art Robinson has wrong.

Bill




Art may not be your cup of tea (educational or political) but I don't think parents who use it or are drawn to it, believe they will have no involvement with their children. their involvement is just in a different format and spent differently than those who put their child in school or recreate school at home.

One can disagree with Art's beliefs without throwing everything and everyone under the bus. His methods do work and have produced excellent results for many. Just as public, private, classical, unschooling, TWTM, CM and a host of many educational practices have. And they all have( his included) their own share of disasters and train wrecks. One must pick what works for your children and not denounce the rest of us as wrong for not picking the same tactic.
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#62 Spy Car

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:59 AM

Sorry, I don't think one can hand a 6 year old a stack of flash cards and answer keys and seriously believe you are giving them the best education possible.

Bill
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#63 Leav97

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:05 PM

Looking through his reading list, it's all out of print books. Why would someone need to buy a CD of OOP books? Buy a kindle or a nook download them for free and as a bonus you won't need to print them.

Am I missing something?

#64 no name given

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:13 PM

and I am assuming some haven't, including me, I think judgements should be reserved until it has been tried and proven to be ineffective for YOUR situation.

I think there is a lot not covered on the website that is probably on the cd's and I don't think, from what I've read and heard, that Dr. Robinson expects 6 year olds to be completely independent.

I get so put off by people that think their way is the only way. I don't think Dr. R thinks his way is the only way.

Dr. Robinson clearly states that these methods are what worked for his family after the loss of his wife. From what I understand, she was quite heavily involved in the kids' education. As the sole provider for his family, he was unable to do what she did. He modified her methods to work for him and his children. He states on one of his lectures that the way he did things is not the best way for everyone, but it worked for their situation.

Please don't attack people for having different educational views and please don't make people feel inferior for using different methods. AND, above all, don't insinuate that people are doing their children harm by following an educational model with which you disagree.
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#65 pdalley

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:17 PM

Sorry, I don't think one can hand a 6 year old a stack of flash cards and answer keys and seriously believe you are giving them the best education possible.

Bill


Since I actually own the curriculum I can honestly say that is NOT what is on the CD's that explain how to implement the method.

In fact unless you read his explanation on the CD's you can't really understand what he means about the implementation. And I still can't find anything stating he 'guarantees' anything. And I did look at the product again to make sure that was what I remembered reading. I use parts of it but we don't follow it to the letter. But then I don't follow any curriculum to the letter and I believe most home educators do not.
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#66 Spy Car

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:22 PM

Since I actually own the curriculum I can honestly say that is NOT what is on the CD's that explain how to implement the method.

In fact unless you read his explanation on the CD's you can't really understand what he means about the implementation. And I still can't find anything stating he 'guarantees' anything. And I did look at the product again to make sure that was what I remembered reading. I use parts of it but we don't follow it to the letter. But then I don't follow any curriculum to the letter and I believe most home educators do not.


Anyone with an internet connection can go to his website and read what Robinson has to say for themselves. There is no dearth of material explaining his "method."

Bill

#67 1Togo

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:25 PM

When RC was put together, there was no Nook or Kindle. Many of the books could only be purchased at great cost, and others required formatting from online sources. The point about a Nook or Kindle is valid, and if you want your child to use an electronic reader, then RC might not be for you. I have considered a Nook, but haven't gotten to the point where I want to get rid of paper and print. In any event, our RC books are going through the hands of our third student, and I print what we do not have.

#68 1Togo

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:33 PM

As regards flashcards with 6 year olds, I did give them to our 6 year old and showed her how to study using Dr. R's instructions. She often used beans to prove the truth of the fact, and then set to work memorizing the fact. Eventually, she learned all of the facts and has never forgotten them. I must confess that I tried to "teach" her the facts, but it did not work. She needed to do the work by herself. I have made mistakes during our homeschooling years, but showing dd how to study flashcards wasn't one of those mistakes. She uses the same method for flashcards of all types.

As regards answer keys, we used them differently with our students. For one student, I might call the answers and another might use the answer key independently. It depends on the maturity and ability of the student.

#69 pdalley

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:55 PM

Anyone with an internet connection can go to his website and read what Robinson has to say for themselves. There is no dearth of material explaining his "method."

Bill


It's better explained in the actual curriculum.
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#70 Supertechmom

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:56 PM

Sorry, I don't think one can hand a 6 year old a stack of flash cards and answer keys and seriously believe you are giving them the best education possible.

Bill


I did and did give a good education. But the point you are missing is the understanding of the math is all ready there first. We taught the basic concepts using a wide berth of methods which I do believe Art recommended. then I gave the flash cards to the child and taught them HOW TO STUDY. Not a bit of difference between handing the child a Saxon math fact sheet and setting a timer as they recommend. He's just not filling out a worksheet.

Looking through his reading list, it's all out of print books. Why would someone need to buy a CD of OOP books? Buy a kindle or a nook download them for free and as a bonus you won't need to print them.

Am I missing something?


It's the way they are used. This was long before ebooks and nooks. And we have downloaded many onto ours and are using them that way. The philopshy behind the book list carries far more weight than the book list (though it is a good book list :)) IT's a method of self teaching and how to train a child to self learn.

As regards flashcards with 6 year olds, I did give them to our 6 year old and showed her how to study using Dr. R's instructions. She often used beans to prove the truth of the fact, and then set to work memorizing the fact. Eventually, she learned all of the facts and has never forgotten them. I must confess that I tried to "teach" her the facts, but it did not work. She needed to do the work by herself. I have made mistakes during our homeschooling years, but showing dd how to study flashcards wasn't one of those mistakes. She uses the same method for flashcards of all types.

As regards answer keys, we used them differently with our students. For one student, I might call the answers and another might use the answer key independently. It depends on the maturity and ability of the student.


:iagree::iagree:

#71 TaraTheLiberator

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 01:56 PM

For those who consider adoption of these procedures, I offer the opinion that they will work in any home and with any children, regardless of ability


I guess he didn't use the word "guarantee," but I am still leery of the idea that any given approach/set of materials will work for any child, and people who make that claim about their materials make me suspicious. I am sure RC works fantastically in some homes. I seriously doubt it would in any home, with any child.

Tara

#72 no name given

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:14 PM

Dr. R is not selling something he invented. He is selling a compilation of methods that worked for his family. Just as Ruth Beechick, Susan Wise Bauer, Jesse Bauer, Drew (Plaid Dad, can't think of his last name), Charlotte Mason and a plethora of others have done...they take what they feel his the best of many methods or specific methods, compile them into THEIR brand of education and advertise it as the best way to educate.

What's good for you may not be good for me...and the reverse...

I think some people too readily dismiss a particular style of education because they have a bias against that person to begin with. If it wasn't his educational methods, I'm sure something else about him would rub some people the wrong way...his political views, etc.

Again, don't openly bash others because they choose one method over another. Why is it so important to discredit everyone that doesn't agree with your method?

I don't like plenty of curricula and methods, but I don't try to make it sound like whoever uses what I don't like is somehow delinquent in their duties as a parent or educator.

It would be nice to have respectful exchanges without the accusations.
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#73 Gooblink

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:22 PM

Dr. R is not selling something he invented. He is selling a compilation of methods that worked for his family. Just as Ruth Beechick, Susan Wise Bauer, Jesse Bauer, Drew (Plaid Dad, can't think of his last name), Charlotte Mason and a plethora of others have done...they take what they feel his the best of many methods or specific methods, compile them into THEIR brand of education and advertise it as the best way to educate.

What's good for you may not be good for me...and the reverse...

I think some people too readily dismiss a particular style of education because they have a bias against that person to begin with. If it wasn't his educational methods, I'm sure something else about him would rub some people the wrong way...his political views, etc.

Again, don't openly bash others because they choose one method over another. Why is it so important to discredit everyone that doesn't agree with your method?

I don't like plenty of curricula and methods, but I don't try to make it sound like whoever uses what I don't like is somehow delinquent in their duties as a parent or educator.

It would be nice to have respectful exchanges without the accusations.


Bingo.

#74 Supertechmom

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:38 PM

I guess he didn't use the word "guarantee," but I am still leery of the idea that any given approach/set of materials will work for any child, and people who make that claim about their materials make me suspicious. I am sure RC works fantastically in some homes. I seriously doubt it would in any home, with any child.

Tara



That's a good point Tara. Perhaps what makes anything work for anyone is the determination and commitment of the one making it work. Any curriculum is going to fail if the parties invested don't make it work. But the more of his stuff that I read and listen to, the less of that type of attitude I get from it.

#75 ColoradoMom

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:55 PM

Looking through his reading list, it's all out of print books. Why would someone need to buy a CD of OOP books? Buy a kindle or a nook download them for free and as a bonus you won't need to print them.

Am I missing something?


His curriculum was out many, many moons prior to the Kindle. :D

It used to be advertised all over the place when we first started homeschooling and that was 9+ years ago now - so it is probably like 15 years old, maybe older.

#76 tinkhs

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 06:26 PM

Thank you for this.

and I am assuming some haven't, including me, I think judgements should be reserved until it has been tried and proven to be ineffective for YOUR situation.

I think there is a lot not covered on the website that is probably on the cd's and I don't think, from what I've read and heard, that Dr. Robinson expects 6 year olds to be completely independent.

I get so put off by people that think their way is the only way. I don't think Dr. R thinks his way is the only way.

Dr. Robinson clearly states that these methods are what worked for his family after the loss of his wife. From what I understand, she was quite heavily involved in the kids' education. As the sole provider for his family, he was unable to do what she did. He modified her methods to work for him and his children. He states on one of his lectures that the way he did things is not the best way for everyone, but it worked for their situation.

Please don't attack people for having different educational views and please don't make people feel inferior for using different methods. AND, above all, don't insinuate that people are doing their children harm by following an educational model with which you disagree.



#77 4blessingmom

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:54 PM

I just have to disagree Paula. I think this is a "siren song" aimed at fleecing full-time homeschooling mothers who want to believe they can give their children a good education without their active involvement. One of the many (many) things Art Robinson has wrong.

Bill


"fleecing"...???...Your wording gives you away, Bill.

You are assuming that RC users use RC merely b/c they don't want to spend time educating their dc...and that Art Robinson is taking advantage of these ill intentioned mothers to make a dime. :ack2:

I guess we can agree to disagree.


I guess he didn't use the word "guarantee," but I am still leery of the idea that any given approach/set of materials will work for any child, and people who make that claim about their materials make me suspicious. I am sure RC works fantastically in some homes. I seriously doubt it would in any home, with any child.

Tara


:iagree:

This is why I prefer books like TWTM that give a guideline and goals, and then leave the details to the individual. I just like shopping for books, if I'm honest...:tongue_smilie:

#78 4blessingmom

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:43 PM

LOL

 

Trying to think about 2010.  Let's see...I was 35...my oldest was 8 and youngest 4.  We were living somewhere else.

 

These old threads kinda freak me out for some reason.

 

 

My kids were 6, 4, and 3...and non-existent for Miracle Baby.  We've lived in 2 different states since then.  

 

It cracks me up to see how opinionated (and how inexperienced) I was back then.  Oh, silly me, silly me...


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#79 54879525

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:46 PM

Haven't seen Bill around in awhile. 

 

BILL.....YOU THERE BILL????

 

 


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#80 4blessingmom

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 04:52 PM

It looks like our spammer has been deleted.

 

 

Haven't seen Bill around in awhile. 

 

BILL.....YOU THERE BILL????

 

 

Oh, let's not call him out of lurking on *this* thread.  Between RC and Saxon, he'll be banned before we can even ask how his ds is growing.


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