Marriage of traditional and classical education not so good?

[Susan C.]

It does seem like combining the two cause a lot of conflict. My take (so far) of classical education is learning at a deeper level, whereas traditional is cram all of the facts you can into your head at breakneck speed. Classical takes time to teach you how to think, how to form ideas, the whys, the hows, etc. Traditional seems to have you blazing through, barely retaining any of it, and certainly not digging deeper (no time or instruction how to).

 

I have always wanted my kids to enjoy education. Ds loved reading whole books for history (became an English major). Dd loves to take her time reading a book, she says she imagines the setting, makes the characters real in her head and literally imagines books as movies when she reads. I love that about her, but find myself telling her she has to learn to read quickly or we won't get enough done. So I go the traditional route, but can't leave the yearning to understand, to enjoy behind. So I tried to marry the two ways, ending up with trying to dig deeper and cover a lot of material at the same time. It doesn't work. It seems to be the subject of a lot of threads a month or two into the school year. A few of the threads are mine!

 

So hive, how have you worked this out? I see other threads that say to go at your kid's speed, read the whole books, don't worry about not covering it all. I really want to do that! But, I don't know how to weed things out to make it happen.

[Corraleno]

Here's an excellent, 50-page discussion on this very topic:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193372

 

FWIW, I dropped the cram-it-all-in, textbooky approach (which was a disaster last year) and am allowing my DS to go as in-depth as he wants on the topics he's interested in. An example from history: I use Teaching Company courses as our spine (currently doing Ancients), and then allow him to read/research in depth on relevant topics of his choosing. He's currently obsessed with Greek battles/weapons/tactics, and in the process has learned far more about social, cultural, political, and economic issues in Ancient Greece than if I'd handed him a cut-&-dried textbook. And he's retaining it all, because it's focused around an area that he's inherently interested in. We're also spending waaaaay more time on Ancients than I planned, but the fact that he's loving it and learning so much trumps my "schedule" any day. Two years ago this was a kid who hated to read; now I'm having to enforce "lights out" at 10 pm because he'd stay up all night reading Warfare in the Classical World. I'm happy with that!

 

You might also want to read some articles/threads on the Latin Centered Curriculum (LCC). We don't do Latin, but the "multum non multa" approach really resonated with me, and I think the three basic principles outlined by Drew Campbell can be applied to any homeschool situation, whether you study Classical languages or not:

 

(1) Limit the number of subjects to "a few key disciplines."

(2) Teach those subjects "in relation to each other and in the context of broader intellectual concerns."

(3) Core readings "consist of a very few representative masterpieces that the student reads slowly and studies in depth."

(Read the full article here.)

 

I've opted for a similar approach, although our three key subjects are math, science, and "humanities" (history/philosophy/literature). We also do some Spanish, English mechanics, and art, but the first three are our main focus and the subjects where we aim for depth.

 

Jackie

[Nan in Mass]

I'm all for the non-traditional approach unless it won't get my children into an interesting college or it won't give them the traditional classroom skills to learn once they are there. If I never had to make the education I am offering match up with the traditional US educational system, I wouldn't worry about it. Unfortunately, the two have to match up eventually. I am willing to narrow my children's choice of college somewhat. There are many, many good colleges out there. Hopefully, a few of them will be a good fit. With that in mind, I decided what we would do to demonstrate to colleges that my children were capable of doing college level work. I did this by asking a college GRIN. Their admissions office said SATs and 3 or 4 academic community college classes would demonstrate this sufficiently. That left me with having to teach enough academic and classroom skills that my children would survive community college classes. TWTM is a good place to start. I discovered that my particular children had a terrible time answering textbook questions so I decided to "do" a few textbooks, rather than just use them as a spine. I also decided that we didn't have the time or energy to do all subjects in a non-textbook way. I think that if I were a good teacher, in a classroom setting rather than a more student-led situation, I would be able to use a textbook to do exactly what you are talking about, but I am most definately not like that. When we do a textbook, we don't memorize and review and do the extra projects and research suggested. We read and answer some of the questions.

 

My strategy each year is to pick:

-A subject in which to learn to think

-A subject to do lightly, one which is uninteresting to the child, for which we use do a textbook

-A subject of interest to the child to be learned however the child wants to learn it

-Math, which is non-negotiable, done with a textbook, and which I teach so misconceptions don't build up (hopefully)

-A subject that I want to learn so I am more motivated to do school

each day

-Which subjects I am being careful not to ruin (like literature) because they will be more important in the future, when the child is older

 

I make a list of academic skills they need to work on this year and decide how that will be accomplished, in which subject, or as a short extra.

 

Then I try to smush it all together as efficiently as possible. So, for example, this year my son is doing community college speech the first half of the year (organizational, academic, and classroom skills) and then literature TWEM way the second half of the year. He wants to go to Japan this winter so we are trying to cram a bit of Japanese into him, at least enough to ask someone their phone number, before he goes (his choice), and when he comes back, we are going to work on French grammar (an academic skill). While the season lasts, he is working on sailing (his choice). He is doing sight singing (I want to learn) and piano (his choice, a subject in which I have turned the learning entirely over to him). He is doing a middle school French history/geography textbook (textbook skills, academic skills, light subject, French vocabulary). We are trying to do Blitzer Pre-calc. We are hanging onto our Latin by reading Latin fairy tales occasionally (in the past, this was an academic skills subject). Science is his thinking subject (I hope - sigh) and his main academic skills subject. He is designing his own labs, outlining, reading, and writing papers. No textbook, which I am extremely nervous about.

 

On bad days, I worry that I have arranged it so he has the worst of both worlds and isn't learning anything. On good days, it seems like we are managing to have our cake and eat it, too.

 

-Nan

Edited October 6, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[swimmermom3]

Nan, I unabashedly :001_wub: (adore) you! When it seems like I cannot summon the energy to face yet another evening of planning, prepping, and reteaching myself geometry and algebra 2, you show up and share motivation and help me get back on track. You make some interesting points and unfortunately I have to pick up water polo's latest victim and ransom a cat from the vet. I am looking forward to reading what others have to say.

[Nan in Mass]

I like your posts, too! : )

[Susan C.]

Thanks all! I am processing :) trying to figure how this would look with what we are doing. Dd said tonight she doesn't mind school, but doesn't like that we are always behind. Some subjects definitely need tweeking.

[Corraleno]

Nan, I unabashedly :001_wub: (adore) you! When it seems like I cannot summon the energy to face yet another evening of planning, prepping, and reteaching myself geometry and algebra 2, you show up and share motivation and help me get back on track.

:iagree:

There are half a dozen or so members here, including Nan, who have had such a huge influence on my approach to homeschooling that I think my kids owe them thank you notes!

 

When I applied Nan's categories to DS's subjects this year, they actually fit quite well — which I take as a sign that we're on the right track!

 

Subject in which to learn to think: Sciences (currently consisting of biology, geology, and astronomy)

Subject to do lightly, one which is uninteresting to the child, for which we use do a textbook: English and Spanish

Subject of interest to the child to be learned however the child wants to learn it: Ancient History, via his own choice of readings (on Greek science, technology, warfare, & weaponry)

Math, which is non-negotiable, done with a textbook, and which I teach so misconceptions don't build up (hopefully): Yep, exactly

Subject that I want to learn so I am more motivated to do school each day: Art (both art history & art technique)

Subjects I am being careful not to ruin: That would be literature for us, too

 

Jackie

[Nan in Mass]

Necessity is the mother of invention http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2085091#poststop. It is rather scary to think that I am might in some part be responsible for someone's education. Being responsible for my own children is scary enough. On the other hand, I am glad if I can help anyone as desperate as I am. And I'm not sure I'm really saying anything different than TWTM. I just described what it looks like in our less academic house: a few less m+m's and horses and cups of coffee and a few more ducks and docks and cups of tea.

 

Hugs everyone,

Nan

[elegantlion]

*sigh* Thank you for this thread. Nan, as always, I appreciate your thoughts.

[justamouse]

 

You might also want to read some articles/threads on the Latin Centered Curriculum (LCC). We don't do Latin, but the "multum non multa" approach really resonated with me, and I think the three basic principles outlined by Drew Campbell can be applied to any homeschool situation, whether you study Classical languages or not:

 

(1) Limit the number of subjects to "a few key disciplines."

(2) Teach those subjects "in relation to each other and in the context of broader intellectual concerns."

(3) Core readings "consist of a very few representative masterpieces that the student reads slowly and studies in depth."

(Read the full article here.)

 

I've opted for a similar approach, although our three key subjects are math, science, and "humanities" (history/philosophy/literature). We also do some Spanish, English mechanics, and art, but the first three are our main focus and the subjects where we aim for depth.

 

Jackie

 

That thread that Nan linked back to in her post was an excellent thread that segues into this perfectly. I'll say here what I did there-that the thing I find is the hardest as a homeschooling parent isn't the teaching, but the figuring out what to focus on. It's not more information. The longer I do this, the more I realize that the excellence of homeschooling is in how intertwined everything is-it's not random subjects with irrelevant facts to memorize, it's an organic educational approach. "multum non multa" is exactly right. Focus on the excellent and that is different for each child.

 

Though I did not set about to copy Nan's brilliant plan, I see that I've followed it organically. I e-mailed the colleges my daughter wants to attend and they don't have homeschool admissions, but ask that she take a few CC courses. I can do that. She isn't of age yet to take any, but though we've been very relaxed, I can already tell she will excel at them. Her brother is taking them now, and I'm carefully scouring what he is doing to make sure that I taught her what she will need.

 

He was homeschooled till 10th grade, then went to PS and at 18 emancipated himself. He took is GED, scored extremely high on it and now is breezing through these college courses. This is NOT the course of action I would have wanted for him-much yelling and fighting was involved, but he's making it and breaking it on his own now and, it seems that I did well enough up till 10th grade that he knows what he's doing as far as academics.

 

Correlano and Nan gave you excellent, excellent advice.

[Mom22ns]

My strategy each year is to pick:

-A subject in which to learn to think

-A subject to do lightly, one which is uninteresting to the child, for which we use do a textbook

-A subject of interest to the child to be learned however the child wants to learn it

-Math, which is non-negotiable, done with a textbook, and which I teach so misconceptions don't build up (hopefully)

-A subject that I want to learn so I am more motivated to do school

each day

-Which subjects I am being careful not to ruin (like literature) because they will be more important in the future, when the child is older

 

-Nan

 

Nan, I think this is brilliant!! I try to do this, but never had it so well thought out. From now on, I will run each year's curriculum through this list.

 

I need a smiley that has me bowing before such awesome ideas.

[Ester Maria]

So hive, how have you worked this out? I see other threads that say to go at your kid's speed, read the whole books, don't worry about not covering it all. I really want to do that! But, I don't know how to weed things out to make it happen.

I believe that a child should not be deprived of what constitutes a "typical educational experience" of the society/ies they belong to. By graduation, that "typical educational experience" should be covered, in sense of familiarity with the contents other citizens are familiar with since they were a part of their institutional education. In the US, it's a bit more problematic to do so due to the overly flexible nature of the "standard package", as opposed to some other countries which have clearly defined standards and expectations in all the subjects a child is supposed to study.

 

I'm also a structure freak, being that I really, honestly believe that a proper education NEEDS a structure and CANNOT function without that framework, as an interest-led (not to say fit-led) process, and I also reject the idea that all of it should be fun for the kids (like it or not, there are some things you need to do in life which aren't fun, and the same can be said about the educational framework: some things are just a part of it, deal with it).

 

So what I do is, I create my own framework, which includes the standard (Italian) framework, but is not limited to it. I allow some time and space for the "improvization" (say 10-20% of the school year in each subject), which is interests-related and where kids get to explore more in depth things which we study.

 

Other special interests are a part of their free time, though. I allow my children to have academic free time too, not all of it has to be school or squeezed into the framework. They do a whole bunch of reading outside the school hours too. I make the schedule fit their interests too (they don't have to study all the framework subjects with the same intensity - there is a minimum to do in each area, though). I'm willing to do all sorts of things to help their particular interests - but that's not "school" in our book.

 

If I were to choose, I would always choose a tight intertwined structure rather than a few areas of special interest at this stage of education. This is the time to build connections and the big picture by connecting many areas and disciplines into a solid structure; delving into minutiae is a university business.