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If Latin, Then No Grammar? I'm confused!


Linda...inOwasso
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If we study Latin and I mean really study it (not just for vocabulary), would dc still need an intense grammar (Analytical Grammar) as well?

 

My plan is to start Latin with Lively Latin and then perhaps Latin Prep and on from there, but I don't know if we'll need an additional grammar program OR if the Latin study will eliminate the need for a separate grammar program entirely. Can anyone help on this one? Thanks!!

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I have a 12 year old and an 8 year old. Both are studying Latin - one with Latin Prep and one with Lively Latin. Only the 12 year old does separate grammar. She has completed 2 of the 3 sessions of Analytical Grammar. She'll finish next year. Lively Latin has plenty of grammar for kids prior to the logic stage. I have discovered after 2 very painful years of R&S that grammar needs to be a more analytical endevour rather than a learn X then do sentences. She got everything right but really didn't get it. Approaching grammar through Latin gives them the context and analysis from the beginning so they start thinking of it in that way from the start. Then when their minds really are analytical enough to take sentences apart and really understand the structure - I come in with Analytical Grammar to solidify it all in English.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Heather

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which I offer tentatively--because Heather obviously is handling the issue well, and I don't want her to feel that she needs to change.

 

However...my opinion is that you ought to keep up with the English grammar. You can certainly do less of it; if you're doing Latin, do the English grammar only on alternate days, and you'll probably need to do fewer repetitions. But while Latin is good for English grammar skills, it doesn't replace them, even in the earlier grades. There are many English grammar concepts which aren't covered at all in Latin. (Like punctuation, for example.) Others are different. (In Latin, the indirect object [dative] can be translated either as the object of a preposition, or as a "regular" indirect object. In English, though, it makes a big difference grammatically as to whether you say "I threw Jim the ball" or "I threw the ball to Jim.")

 

So that's my $.02.

 

Now, Heather, carry on. :)

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But while Latin is good for English grammar skills, it doesn't replace them, even in the earlier grades. There are many English grammar concepts which aren't covered at all in Latin. (Like punctuation, for example.) Others are different. (In Latin, the indirect object [dative] can be translated either as the object of a preposition, or as a "regular" indirect object. In English, though, it makes a big difference grammatically as to whether you say "I threw Jim the ball" or "I threw the ball to Jim.")

 

So that's my $.02.

 

Now, Heather, carry on. :)

 

I agree. DD 9 is doing LFC B and Shurley English 4. We only spend 10 minutes on English grammar, sometimes less. LFC has grammar too but like Susan said, it doesn't cover everything.

If you really don't want to do grammar you might be able to do a writing and grammar combo, or is that already in Analytical Grammar? I really know nothing about that curriculum.

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I have decided to take a year off from grammar next year. My daughter is a year ahead in her grammar (Hake Grammar 6). Since she will be in 6th next year I am going to continue with Latin ( We have done Latin Primer 1 & 2 and will start Latin Prep I next year) and concentrate more on writing and incorperating the grammar in pratical application. I do expect to return to grammar the following year.

Janis in DE

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SWB, In your book you mentioned that so many of your college students were terrible writers. Even star students could barely put a sentence/paragraph/essay together -- in a way that you felt was appropriate for the collegiate level. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Do you think that Latin could be used in conjunction w/ a strong writing program w/ a grammar focus, rather than a pure grammar program? What do you do *exactly* for your kiddos (especially in middle school) to prepare them for college level writing and strong SAT prep? Latin daily w/ English grammar every other day -- or so?

 

Did you do Latin & English grammar all the way through high school at home or in outsourced classes?

 

Thanks, Susan.

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There are many English grammar concepts which aren't covered at all in Latin. (Like punctuation, for example.) Others are different. (In Latin, the indirect object [dative] can be translated either as the object of a preposition, or as a "regular" indirect object. In English, though, it makes a big difference grammatically as to whether you say "I threw Jim the ball" or "I threw the ball to Jim.")

 

 

 

I should have mentioned that we do Classical writing (or Writing Tales depending on the age) which does cover punctuation and other English usage. That does help me feel comfortable leaving our intensive grammar studies for Analytical Grammar. It did take me a while to really get to that comfort zone and to know where to make sure we were properly covering those issues. Also, my 8 year old who does no grammar is using Lively Latin which was written with the idea that many of it's users would be using it for grammar instruction. Whether I'd be as comfortable if I was using another Latin program - I can't be as sure.

 

But all that to say that Susan makes an excellent point to be sure you are covering those things not dealt with in Latin. It just may not take a full grammar program in the early years to do so.

 

Heather

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This is a place where different classical educators take different approaches. Some use Latin as the sole medium for grammar instruction; others use a separate grammar curriculum or integrate English grammar with composition (e.g., Classical Writing). If you do want to use Latin on its own, then you need to use a grammar-intensive method (e.g., Henle) or be familiar enough with English and Latin grammar to be able to teach the one in the context of the other. Most modern Latin curricula do give examples in English before introducing a point of Latin grammar, so it's not all that hard to pull this off. For younger kids, Lively Latin is the best I've seen at integrating English and Latin grammar with little extra input necessary from the parent-teacher.

 

There is a grammar curriculum that teaches the two subjects in tandem: Basic Language Principles with Latin Background. There is also a reference grammar, English Grammar for Students of Latin, that is very helpful.

 

HTH!

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I agree. It very much matters which Latin program you use. I do not think the grammar in Latina Christiana or Latin for Children would be enough; in my experience, Henle, Latin Book One and Galore Park *do* have enough grammar instruction to be useful.

 

We are currently using Galore Park in conjunction with Classical Writing, and the combination of the two provides us with not only a good amount of grammar study, but with constant reinforcement.

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I'm planning on using WT next year also Lori. I ordered it in August to give myself plenty of time to become familiar with it and I think it has plenty of grammar for us. My dd (3rd grade next year) will be using Primary Language Lessons for coypwork, narration, dictation, etc... in addition to WT, but I'm planning on only those 2 sources for grammar in 3rd.

 

Oops... it was late when I posted. We will also be getting some grammar from Lively Latin.

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My plan as far as Latin and grammar is this: My son did Hake Grammar 6 last year and is now completing Hake 8 this year. I feel this is quite enough grammar for a while. He is also doing Getting Started With Latin this year. He will drop English grammar next year and do a Latin program that has an emphasis on grammar. We will do this for two years (7th and 8th grade). If he is still homeschooling in high school, he will pick up English grammar again then.

 

With young children, I would focus on English grammar first. I think that Latin is good at reinforcing the concepts already learned in English grammar because you have to understand the grammar from a less intuitive perspective. It's sort of like getting a better understanding of place value in math by working with numbers in base 6 rather than base 10.

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