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If you HAD to pick between MUS and TT...


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And had NO other options, which would you pick for HS and why?

 

I have read all the old threads about MUS and TT and I think I am worse off than when I started.

 

I don't want to hear any info about any other programs (I'm already getting a Lials text), just which of these you would use if these were your only choices.

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They're so different!

 

TT if I wanted something decent, for an independant worker and very easy on my end.

 

MUS if I wasn't bothered by some planning, needed something that would appeal to a few different learning styles and wanted to cover concepts in more depth.

 

I will admit though that neither worked for us and we're firmly in the Singapore/MM camp. MUS was too much work for me and my daughter in I were disappointed in TT's definitions and explanations finding them vague and sloppy.

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I would pick TT, for two reasons:

 

1. It has more of a standard scope and sequence than MUS (at least, that's what I've heard; not sure if that applies to all grades or just the early grades).

 

2. It has regular review built into it, as opposed to the mastery approach of MUS. My kids need the former approach.

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We used MUS through H.S. with my oldest. He always enjoyed it and made great grades. However, I didn't like the sequence of teaching. I didn't feel that he was prepared for the SAT's the way his good grades in MUS indicated he should have been.

 

We ended up using chalkdust SAT review and he took a dual enrollment college algebra class in addition to the MUS.

 

My oldest dd did MUS up to Algebra I. She hated it/didn't understand a word of it, it was a daily battle to "get" the material. So I switched her to TT.

Now both dds are using TT for h.s.. So far TT fits their learning style much better- the explanations make immediate sense to them.

 

I've switched my elementary children to Saxon. I've done elementary MUS for 11 years now and I needed a change to stay excited about teaching. To my great surprise my 3rd and 6th grader are excelling and loving it.

 

I'm not trying to bash MUS. I'm sure success depends on how you use a program (or how you can tolerate how a program needs to be used) and not just on the merits of the program. My daughters learn better by reading and discussing. They hated the manipulatives of MUS. Yes- I know that is tantamount to heresy. Also none of my kids like to learn from a DVD. Go figure.

 

Can you borrow someone's books for a few days?

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We tried to use MUS, but my dd also hated the manipulatives. She also did NOT like the videos. I did not appreciate the lack of *spiral* review.

 

She also tried TT 7. She did not like the CDs with that one either as the repetition of the teacher's voice got on both of our nerves. I will always remember the oft repeated phrases, "That's right!" and "You got it!". :glare: I did wish the review was better in TT also.

 

My dd doesn't like math and that may have had something to do with her negative views. :001_smile: So I hesitated to write, but it's always good to have many comments to be able to form a good decision. I wish you luck! And now I'm off to see if we can actually make it through a whole lesson today in Saxon. It's not working so far and I may be the next one in line asking about math programs! ;)

Edited by LatinTea
Added spiral to review. I didn't know there was any other kind in math! :-)
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Guest Cheryl in SoCal

MUS does have review (each lesson has 3 pages of systematic review that cover that lesson and previously mastered concepts).

 

I hadn't heard of TT when we switched to MUS but it wouldn't have been an option for us because it didn't start at the beginning, is spiral, and relies on the computer (I don't want a math program that requires the use of the computer every day). I seriously looked into TT after we'd been doing MUS for a couple of years (not because MUS wasn't working but because I wanted to make sure I was using what would work best for my children) but we didn't switch for the above reasons. My kids also love Dr Demme and the way he explains math.

 

I too think you should have your ds watch both demos and see which he thinks will work better for him. I don't think you can really go wrong with either, and think if he plays a role in picking out which one that would help set the tone.

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I've used both MUS (up to Algebra) and TT (5, 7 and pre-algebra). I'm not a huge fan of either, partly due to learning style of my dc, and partly due to scope and sequence of both.

 

If I had no other choices, I'd have to pick TT. But, you really need to do all 4 years to get a "complete" math program. I think I was naive when my oldest was in Jr high and I was looking at high school math. I thought Algebra 1 was Algebra 1 was Algebra 1. I thought there were standards that were followed so programs could be interchangeable. But, I've since found that is not the case. So, I would encourage you to pick your program for the long haul.

 

TT, I think IMHO, has more review, is more "user friendly" and does a pretty good job of explaining theory.

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We used MUS all the way to HS graduation with dd. She loved it and went on to be the number one student in her calculus class so MUS does work. There is a slight bit of difference in scope and sequence but not as much as TT. TT has repeatedly said that you have to complete the program to get the same result as you would with other curriculums. There are many Alg 2 concepts in TT that aren't even discussed until Pre-Calculus. There are only a few times in the upper level MUS that manipulatives are used and they are in the Alg 1 program. We never used them even then because both my kids understood the concept without the manipulatives so we just moved on. I made the mistake of thinking that since everyone was talking so great about TT that I'd try it's Geometry program for Ds. It was almost a complete waste. First it's very expensive compared to MUS and teaches much the same concepts but also in a diffent scope and sequence. My son said it didn't have as much review as he was used to with MUS and unfortunately forgot most of what he was taught by the time his SAT came along. Looking back on it I think MUS would have been a better choice. I did not stay with MUS for Ds Alg 2 and Pre-Cal mostly because he insisted on a self study program. After hearing other recommendations we used a completely different program for the rest of his high school and he has done extremely well with it. I think that both programs are similar but different students succeed differently with different programs so as many here have said there is no one right program. Money is a big factor for me but I also had to truly look at my children learning style. As in my case what worked for one doesn't mean it will work for another. Just like PP have said you need to let your son see all of them and see what he thinks he'll like. Even if he picks one out that he likes or that you pick one that you like there is no guarantee that it will work. As with my Ds, even though I didn't really like the idea, I had to switch programs and it hasn't hurt his understanding of math one bit.

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2. It has regular review built into it, as opposed to the mastery approach of MUS.

 

Sorry but I wish people would stop saying this. MUS has 6 pages per lesson. 3 of them are review. And every so often the review pages cover concepts from previous books in the series. It would be more honest to say that it doesn't have the constant spiraling review that some texts have, but to say that it doesn't review is simply not true. Sorry, off to take my :chillpill: now. :001_smile:

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Sorry but I wish people would stop saying this. MUS has 6 pages per lesson. 3 of them are review. And every so often the review pages cover concepts from previous books in the series. It would be more honest to say that it doesn't have the constant spiraling review that some texts have, but to say that it doesn't review is simply not true. Sorry, off to take my :chillpill: now. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

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Sorry but I wish people would stop saying this. MUS has 6 pages per lesson. 3 of them are review. And every so often the review pages cover concepts from previous books in the series. It would be more honest to say that it doesn't have the constant spiraling review that some texts have, but to say that it doesn't review is simply not true. Sorry, off to take my :chillpill: now. :001_smile:

 

I accept what you're saying, but I see a difference between a program like TT that spirals through multiple topics in the course of a text and really does have regular review (as opposed to "every so often" review, which for many kids is simply not enough) and MUS, which focuses primarily on one topic per level, even with occasional review.

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Are you saying that in Saxon, or TT, they are able to have review from previous years in every lesson, every day?

 

I know that MUS has review in every lesson; review of what's been done the past weeks and sprinkled in are items from previous books. You'd think that once something is mastered, you wouldn't need it to be reviewed constantly, but brought back in periodically to refresh your memory.

 

Still, I can't believe that every item covered in a spiral program can be reviewed constantly - when would you learn new stuff?

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I would let the student look at samples of each and let them pick based on which style they seemed to like better.

 

Sage advice from Creekland! :) That was the deciding factor for my dd, who needed to switch this summer to a new curriculum. TT and MUS were in the running. She looked at a bunch of online samples of the video segments and book excerpts from both and went with... does it matter? lol She picked the one that SHE connected with, and I am so grateful for that.

 

At this level (halfway through high school), she knows this is HER education, and it is what she makes of it. I don't know that she'll ever jump up and down about math (in joy, that is!), but she likes this program much more than other things she's tried. AND the other day she was actually all excited to tell me about something "cool" she learned from the lesson that had everyday life application.

 

Attitude is HUGE, and if she has a more positive attitude about the math program (and a say in it at this age), I know she'll learn and retain more too.

 

Good luck!

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I would pick TT, for two reasons:

 

1. It has more of a standard scope and sequence than MUS (at least, that's what I've heard; not sure if that applies to all grades or just the early grades).

 

2. It has regular review built into it, as opposed to the mastery approach of MUS. My kids need the former approach.

:iagree: My youngers have used MUS, but I just couldn't wrap my head around it's non-traditional approach (which isn't helpful when my child is asking me to help them understand how to do a problem).

 

My ds12 has used TT for 6th, 7th, and now he just started Pre-Alg. I know some complain that the program is not challenging enough and/or leaves gaps, but it's working for us and he *likes* doing Math -- he never felt this way about the subject with any of the other curricula we used.

 

So, although the two are "apples and oranges" I'd pick TT each time. ;)

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Are you saying that in Saxon, or TT, they are able to have review from previous years in every lesson, every day?

 

I know that MUS has review in every lesson; review of what's been done the past weeks and sprinkled in are items from previous books. You'd think that once something is mastered, you wouldn't need it to be reviewed constantly, but brought back in periodically to refresh your memory.

 

Still, I can't believe that every item covered in a spiral program can be reviewed constantly - when would you learn new stuff?

 

At some point topics from the past are just assumed to be learned (and are used in the current work) -- for instance, in a 5th grade math text you would no longer have review of basic addition -- you would be *using* that knowledge in more difficult work. And not every topic is reviewed in every lesson in TT; after learning about naming angles, for instance, you'd see that topic in the next few lessons, and then thereafter maybe every third lesson. In TT you have a new concept in most lessons (or sometimes an expansion of a topic that was just introduced); the actual number of problems in that lesson related to that topic is minimal (this is a lot like Saxon). So the remainder of the lesson is largely review. Some people consider this a negative; for us, it's not, because I have kids who *need* that much regular review and who does better when a topic is introduced in tiny bites, as it is in Saxon or TT.

Edited by Maverick_Mom
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You'd think that once something is mastered, you wouldn't need it to be reviewed constantly, but brought back in periodically to refresh your memory.

 

 

It depends on the child. Some kids absolutely don't need that much review, if any, and are enormously frustrated by it because, for them, it is a waste of their time! Other kids, though, do need it. So it's a factor that has to be taken into consideration when choosing a math program.

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Yes, you're right. TT will tell you that their scope and sequence is off and that to get the benefit of a full high school math you must do the whole program. Some of their concepts that most would have in Alg 1 are not covered until Alg 2 and some Alg 2 concepts are not taught until Pre-Calculus but they do say that once you finish Pre-Calculus the student will be at the same ending point as most other Pre-Calculus programs. Haven't used it so can't say how true this is. MUS does go all the way through Calculus. As this is a new program I can't give you any info on that either. We used it through Pre-Calculus but Calculus had not been written then. Haven't heard if or when TT plans to bring out Calculus. I know most of their focus now is to bring out math programs for elementary aged kids.

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MUS does have a mastery approach...work on one new concept, apply, move to next. But, also does have cummulative review in each lesson. The extra teaching help is DVD, visual. No computer required.

 

TT does require the use of the computer IF you are going to use the teaching helps. A spiral method simply means a concept is broken down into pieces and spread out in between each other as you spiral "upward" to the next text. In between you also have some review.

 

Personally, I believe it is important for the kids to have an understanding of the "why" behind math. Mr. Demme in MUS does a great job of that. IMHO, TT does not. (I am comparing Algebra texts because I have worked with both)

 

that TT stops at pre-calc, which most are saying is really only partially pre-calc because it covers material that should be in algebra II.

 

MUS goes all the way through Calculus...

 

This is also my understanding.

 

I also agree that if you are on the fence in deciding which program to use, let the student be in on the decision.

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If I only had a choice between TT and MUS....MUS wins hands down!! I personally did not care for the non-traditional approach to terminology and the minute breakdown of concepts in TT. And I never felt that the program actually challenged my kids--especially the word problems. MUS works for us because Steve Demme uses traditional math terminology that 'I' understand and hence can help my kids, the breakdown of topics and problem solving techniques makes more sent to 'me' in order for me to help my kids if they need it AND my most important consideration is that MUS goes all the way to Calculus.

 

Agreeing with a PP who mentioned the 'lack of review' myth always associated with MUS too. Plenty of review, plenty of problems. Just not overkill.

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TT would win hands down here!

 

The sales of TT on this board are strong, so you can find them used if you like, and you can sell them used if you like. Both work very well, so it actually is NOT a huge expense!

 

TT has made things clearer to my dd who had a majorly negative experience with Saxon. We've had to work her back toward her true level, and TT has been great for that!

 

You do not have to use the computer daily for TT! Lots of people only use the book!

 

My kids couldn't handle the one subject of MUS, and I had 2 friends whose kids used MUS and they were disappointed with the results. SO, we never tried it based on that.

 

That all said, MUS does work for lots of kids, and TT does work for lots of kids! Both programs have had kids use it through high school and do well on SATs and other tests. So, it's back to choosing what the child feels best with, but being willing to change if it's just not working! I know, it's not good to jump around, but you also need to be aware of the negative effect a program could be having (as with my dd)!

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If my choices were only MUS and TT, then I'd probably choose TT through pre-algebra and then do MUS from pre-algebra on.

 

None of my kids would have been able to deal with the one-topic/year approach that MUS uses for the lower levels. That's why I'd use TT then if I only had those two programs to choose between.

 

Afterwards I'd use MUS because my kids don't learn well by bits and pieces. MUS also uses standard terminology, which I think is important by high school.

 

I tried MUS with my oldest way back in K-1st grades when they had Primer/Foundations/Intermediate/Advanced. It was a huge flaming disaster. That dd was an expert memorizer and managed to memorize her way through without any understanding.

 

I am strongly considering using MUS prealgebra with my youngest though. She is dyslexic. Memorization is a weak point for her. She needs BLACK print on WHITE paper with plenty of white space and little or no color. MUS is just about the only program that fits the bill at that level. She doesn't like math programs on the computer (I'd use Kinetic Books with her if she did). I know she won't have anything to do with the videos, so I'm not sure whether to bother getting them or not. If the instruction is in the teacher guide as well (so I know what she's supposed to be learning from each lesson), then I'll just get that.

 

 

ETA: (The original post is from 2010 and I am updating it in January 2013.)

I am using MUS successfully with my 14yo. MUS prealgebra didn't work out very well, but MUS Algebra I went very well and MUS Geometry is very nice as well. She is definitely more of a geometry person than an algebra person. I will have to find some other geometry type of course for her to do after Algebra II because it's going to be a huge struggle to get her through Algebra II. She is NOT an algebra person.

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I'm sorry but MUS does not use manipulatives except for one or two times in their Alg 1 book. In the remainder of the books none are used. Even then the manipulatives aren't really needed to understand the concepts. They do heavily rely on manipulatives in the younger grades but once you hit Alg it is assumed that you can now visualize concepts without the need for manipulatives.

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