Jump to content

Menu

Lial's Algbra I to Saxon Algbra II


Recommended Posts

I wasn't planning on using Saxon but it looks like my dd will take an outside class next year ... mainly for the accountability. However we already started with Lial's Algbra I at home and hope to finnish it before Sept. So I was just wondering if these two will have a smooth transition or overlap or gaps.

 

TIA for any help.

 

:bigear:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to teach from Saxon and I currently teach from Lial.

 

I would NEVER recommend switching into Saxon at the Algebra 2 or above levels... while it is 'possible' it is also a very difficult transition. Saxon is a non-traditional Math program. Saxon teaches with a unique vocabulary, notation and methods. The Algebra 1 material is NOT reviewed--students are expected to know how to 'read' and work problems taught in the Saxon Algebra 1 text from day one. It is almost like starting in the second half of a foreign language class...

 

IF you still decide to go ahead with this class then it would be prudent to purchase a Saxon Algebra 1 text and have her work through some of it before hand to get used to the different way of teaching, showing work and expected results. She will probably have to refer to it multiple times as a reference text. Because Saxon is not arranged by chapters it will be a bit tricky to figure out where concepts were introduced--as the lessons on a particular concept are spread 'randomly' (so it seems) throughout the text in small increments instead of a unit/chapter layout like Lials.

 

Lial's is a 'traditional' program. Texts like Larson (Chalkdust), Foerster and even Dolciani would be a much easier transition as they were developed to the same standards and share similar methods.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I put my son in Saxon Alg. II after completing Math Relief Alg. 1 and Jacob's geometry. However, keep in mind that my experience is an "experiment of 1" while Jann in TX has worked with many students...

 

Here are some thoughts:

 

1. I agree with Jann in TX that it is a good idea to have a Saxon Alg. I text on hand. In fact, it might be better to switch to Saxon. Alg. I for the rest of summer. You can generally pick up used texts for a good price or perhaps borrow one from a homeschooling friend.

 

2. Have your daughter take Saxon's Alg. 1 and 2 placement tests. I had my son do this and discovered he needed help with exponents (negative) and one other topic. He was able to do about 10 lessons from Saxon Alg. I and a few of the later tests and then was ready to move on. You may find that your daughter lacks some of the geometry concepts that Saxon expects the student to know--Saxon Alg. I incorporates *some* geometry, mainly area/circumference/volume/surface area problems.

 

3. The first few weeks of Alg. II, my son averaged 80-85 on his tests. As he got used to working a Saxon lesson, his average improved to 90-95, with the occasional 100%. He had a very good year of math and enjoyed the journey. So, it *can* be done.

 

4. You mentioned the purpose of the class was for outside accountability. When I switched my children to Saxon (at the high school level), I had a definite purpose in doing so and committed to it because I believed Saxon's approach would be an advantage for my kids. I wouldn't put a child into Saxon Alg. II unless I was committed to staying with Saxon for the rest of her high school career. So, if this class is a one time only deal with Saxon, I might find a different way to hold daughter accountable....

 

PS to Jann in TX: I know you've repeatedly stated that Saxon teaches with a unique vocabulary, notation and methods. Can you give me some examples of what you mean? I'm not familiar enough with other materials to know what is unique to Saxon and what is not....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm curious about what's unique to Saxon too - it's the only text we've used. We did notice that the wording on the SAT was different for some things, but I don't know if it's different from Saxon, or different from all the texts to make it more challenging. Sorry I just wanted to post so I remember to check back for Jann's reply. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saxon is not a bad curriculum... remember I used to teach from it exclusively--and the majority of my students did very well with the program and transitioned to college Maths just fine (although most switched to a more traditional program for Pre-Calc after they worked the first 30-50 lessons of Advanced Math to complete their Geometry credit). I did have to switch a good number of students out of Saxon... Most of my students were also 'A' students if that matters.

 

Off the top of my head, one of the biggest differences is the way/method Saxon teaches word problems. Their notation is UNIQUE with the subscript letters and capitals. Those 'number of nickels' problems...

 

The first year I TAUGHT Saxon I absolutely hated the program. I felt like a fish out of water and I was an experienced Math teacher! By the time I finished teaching it the second year I FINALLY understood the method to their 'madness'!

 

Students moving from Saxon Algebra 1 into a more traditional program do not have the same issues... it is a MUCH easier transition.

 

The stronger the Math student the easier the transition into Saxon after Algebra 1... I just would not subject an 'average' student or any student who struggled with Algebra 1 to the transition...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Jann! I thought the same thing about the subscript of N for nickles, etc., but it did help to keep things straight about what you were finding. Is their advanced math text sufficient prep for calculus? I'm glad to hear the transition out is easy enough, since we'll need to after their calculus text.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Saxon authors (Saxon and Hake) have a definite 'scientific bent' to their thinking--and to the design and problem selections in their course. Most other texts try to remain 'neutral'.. and they (other programs) tend to have more of a balance between scientific applications and business applications.

 

A 'scientist' has a very different thinking process (logic) than an accountant or an English major.

 

By 'method to their madness' I meant that it took me nearly 2 years of teaching THEIR methods before I truly understood them... where 'traditional methods' just seem more natural to ME.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Saxon authors (Saxon and Hake) have a definite 'scientific bent' to their thinking--and to the design and problem selections in their course. Most other texts try to remain 'neutral'.. and they (other programs) tend to have more of a balance between scientific applications and business applications.

 

A 'scientist' has a very different thinking process (logic) than an accountant or an English major.

 

By 'method to their madness' I meant that it took me nearly 2 years of teaching THEIR methods before I truly understood them... where 'traditional methods' just seem more natural to ME.

 

Thank you, Jann! I was a math/comp sci major so Saxon's "bent" as you put it has always made perfect sense to me... And I hadn't realized that the notation with the word problems using subscripted variables was unique. Again, made perfect sense to me.

 

I agree with the science applications which is one of the reasons why *I* like it. My kids are familiar with chem/ratio math problems before they even get there in science. Practical math, in my mind!

 

Thanks again,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even though this notation is unique to Saxon, my kids (who have only done Saxon) never used it. My kids are writing phobic and would never write two letters where they thought one would be enough. I really don't think this should be a problem.

 

Linda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have this weird dilemma.

My DD, 13, has never been a mathy kid. She is finally started to enjoy math a bit this year--she's taking Saxon Algebra 1 and when she can figure out how to approach a complicated problem she is really proud of herself. This is sort of her typical skills status--she hates skills while she is learning them, and once she masters them she is proud of herself and then transitions to enjoying them.

 

So her grades in Saxon are not all that great, but oddly enough she is really learning the material. She has a tendency to make dumb mistakes in the easy parts of the problems because she rushes through them.

 

She tends to test well in standardized tests, often testing better than would be predicted by her practice test scores--implying to me that once she really focusses she can do better.

 

Anyway, next year she is going into a brick and mortar high school. She took the Algebra placement exam right after returning from a one week science wilderness camp, and right after finishing a high school level expository essay class--thus was out of practice and somewhat behind in the Saxon algebra 1 book. I was unconcerned about her being behind, as we would finish during the summer, but this test was a surprise to us and not a good one.

 

She did "ok" on the test, but did not test out of freshman Algebra 1. There were test questions on material that she had not covered yet at all. So the school suggested that she take Algebra 1H AND Geometry 1H next year, simultaneously, to get ahead in math for her entire schooling.

 

I had assumed that she would ask to challenge the Algebra 1 class again this month, and pass the test, and just take geometry. If she did that, she would also be able to take science next year--they suggested that she not attempt two math and one science classes in the same year. (They only require 3 years of science to graduate, but to be well-rounded as a college applicant she needs 4 years--and so this would mean that some year she would have to take two science classes simultaneously.)

 

However, she wants to go ahead and take Algebra 1H, so that she can be proficient and 'smarticle' in math, and Geometry non - H so that she is not pigeon holed into taking honors math all the way through, since she does not like math. The text they use is a California text by Larson--from HM. The geometry text is by Serra, and is from Key Curriculum. They seem to use the same texts for both regular and honors classes, just covering them more conceptually and in depth in the honors classes. So, for instance, the honors algebra class adds a lot of focus on using a graphing calculator and analyzing scientific data.

 

So I'm thinking, actually, that it's not a bad idea for her to take those two math classes (although I think she should upgrade back into honors geometry as Saxon Algebra 1 has introduced geometry to her pretty well, and she is good at it.). I like the idea of her getting really, really solid in algebra. I remember that when I took it, I got a lot more solid when I used it for chemistry, and before that I don't know how I got those a's and b's. It was very hazy to me; I kind of studied mostly for the tests. And in general, Saxon has been outstanding for her and Harcourt CA math was disasterous. It would be nice for her to get that overlapping material to make the transition back to a traditional math program.

 

I'm debating, and frankly, frozen in place.

 

What do you think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What lesson number is she in the Saxon algebra text? There is a lot of new stuff in the final 30 or so lessons, so she may, or will probably, hit the things she didn't know when she finishes the text. I would think she could re-test before school starts and place out of the algebra. If she understands it and is doing well, why repeat it? It would also give her the ability to do a science and allow her to take four years if she wants to do that. I agree that she'd probably enjoy the honors geometry more since she has a good foundation in the basics of geometry. But then again, proofs are totally different from the surface area, volume type of problems. Just my thoughts. :)

 

Edited to add - I just read that you were asking Jann - sorry. She can give you much better advice! :)

Edited by Teachin'Mine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What lesson number is she in the Saxon algebra text? There is a lot of new stuff in the final 30 or so lessons' date=' so she may, or will probably, hit the things she didn't know when she finishes the text. I would think she could re-test before school starts and place out of the algebra. If she understands it and is doing well, why repeat it? [/quote']

 

I appreciate your input, even though you are not Jan!

 

I think she can retest, but the difference is that she is never completely solid in math until she has been using it for a while. That is why Saxon is so good for her, and also why I'm concerned about her math performance in high school. I think that the key maths to know very, very thoroughly are the first 3 semesters of algebra, and the first 3 semesters of calculus. So I'm considering just letting the test scores stand to give her another shot at that material from a different, and deeper, POV, and hopefully ease her transition into BM school and also into non-Saxon math. But I'm torn about it.

 

I was also thinking that I could ask them to excuse her from foreign language study this year and send her to Concordia Villages next summer to pick up first year Spanish that way. Then she could take both maths AND biology. But that's an entirely different topic.

 

Doggone, as a crazy-curriculum junkie homeschooler I can complicate almost any situation at all, beyond belief.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she's not "mathy", why would she be planning on such advanced math classes? Not sure what "BM" school means - is that for the Coast Guard, medicine, or music? Hopefully Jann will be on soon and give you some real help. :lol:

 

On edit: oh duh ... brick and mortar :lol:

Edited by Teachin'Mine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

90% of all mistakes in Algebra 1 are due to 'silly' mistakes. Accuracy is VERY important--as the Math sequence builds the problems become more and more complex--a simple 2 x 3 = 5 mistake can throw a WHOLE problem way off (besides leading to an incorrect answer)...

 

Since your dd will be transitioning to a b&m school I suggest going ahead with the 2 Maths. Honors Geometry is usually a tough course--so I agree with you--take the regular leveled one--the part of Geometry covered in Saxon's Algebra 1 is MINIMAL (some basic formula work) so 80% of the material will probably be new.

 

After working a second Algebra 1 class--especially with a true honors option you dd will learn quite a bit--and her foundation will be GREAT for higher maths.

 

3 years of science is perfectly fine to gain college entrance...but she can double up her Sr year if she desires another (depending on what her future/potential college major will be).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If she's not "mathy"' date=' why would she be planning on such advanced math classes? Not sure what "BM" school means - is that for the Coast Guard, medicine, or music? Hopefully Jann will be on soon and give you some real help. :lol:

 

On edit: oh duh ... brick and mortar :lol:[/quote']

 

And yet I have an engineering degree. I regard math as a skill and tool, a means to an end. I don't like it, but I don't hate it either. I have always thought that DD would someday like math, as this is consistent with her pattern of hating learning new skills (she prefers learning content) until she masters them, and then loving them to death. She is due to start loving math. Algebra is the first real math they teach--before that most of what we call math is really arithmetic.

 

So I want her to be able to pivot in any direction coming out of high school, which means that she should be taking 4 solid years of math and 4 years of science as well. The funny thing is that high school grad requirements emphasize history over science these days, something that was not the case when I was younger; so to take 4 years of science she will have at least one very tough academic year down the road, because she has to take so many more other classes than I did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

90% of all mistakes in Algebra 1 are due to 'silly' mistakes. Accuracy is VERY important--as the Math sequence builds the problems become more and more complex--a simple 2 x 3 = 5 mistake can throw a WHOLE problem way off (besides leading to an incorrect answer)...

 

Since your dd will be transitioning to a b&m school I suggest going ahead with the 2 Maths. Honors Geometry is usually a tough course--so I agree with you--take the regular leveled one--the part of Geometry covered in Saxon's Algebra 1 is MINIMAL (some basic formula work) so 80% of the material will probably be new.

 

After working a second Algebra 1 class--especially with a true honors option you dd will learn quite a bit--and her foundation will be GREAT for higher maths.

 

3 years of science is perfectly fine to gain college entrance...but she can double up her Sr year if she desires another (depending on what her future/potential college major will be).

 

I know that DD would learn a lot in honors algebra 1.

I think I might check on replacing the Spanish with science. Hmmmm...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And yet I have an engineering degree. I regard math as a skill and tool, a means to an end. I don't like it, but I don't hate it either. I have always thought that DD would someday like math, as this is consistent with her pattern of hating learning new skills (she prefers learning content) until she masters them, and then loving them to death. She is due to start loving math. Algebra is the first real math they teach--before that most of what we call math is really arithmetic.

 

So I want her to be able to pivot in any direction coming out of high school, which means that she should be taking 4 solid years of math and 4 years of science as well. The funny thing is that high school grad requirements emphasize history over science these days, something that was not the case when I was younger; so to take 4 years of science she will have at least one very tough academic year down the road, because she has to take so many more other classes than I did.

 

Carol that makes sense. Honestly, I'm doing the same with my daughter. I agree that math and science are important. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...