White film or chalk on dishes from dishwasher -- any ideas?

[profmom]

Our dishes suddenly started having a white chalky film on them (the inside of the dishwasher door too). We first thought it was a change in Cascade's formula because the box had changed, and someone else had posted on the Cascade site that their new formula was causing the same issue. However, we changed to a different brand (Seventh Generation), and we're still having the issue!

 

Dh read online to put a bowl of vinegar in the top rack to clean the dishwasher and film on dishes. This helps when he does it, but then it's back again with the next load.

 

Any ideas on how to fix this problem?

Edited June 21, 2010 by profmom

[AlmiraGulch]

Have you considered using a rinse agent, like Jet Dry? Works for me to keep mine clear. I always know when it's out or low in my dishwasher because I start to get that film you're talking about. I add more rinse agent it disappears.

[profmom]

Have you considered using a rinse agent, like Jet Dry? Works for me to keep mine clear. I always know when it's out or low in my dishwasher because I start to get that film you're talking about. I add more rinse agent it disappears.

 

Well, the indicator light isn't on, and I *think* we tried refilling anyway. I will check on this again.

[profmom]

Well, the indicator light isn't on, and I *think* we tried refilling anyway. I will check on this again.

 

Just checked with dh. He's been making sure the rinse aid is full, but the film is still there. :confused:

 

ETA: The dishes looked terrible this morning and now they look good after running it again with a bowl of vinegar in the top rack. Do you think our rinse aid compartment is clogged or something? (Is that even something that happens to dishwashers?)

Edited June 21, 2010 by profmom

[mom2jjka]

Do you have hard water?

It could be lime/mineral deposits in your water.

[profmom]

Do you have hard water?

It could be lime/mineral deposits in your water.

 

Maybe, but we've lived here for almost a year, and it only became an issue a month or so ago. Any suggestions?

[mom2jjka]

I found this

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090702170514AAfrb2B

[skissugar]

ours dishwasher did this as well. The only solution that really worked for us is doing this:

 

No Jet Dry ... and then use lemi shine powder in the main compartment of dishwasher with no regular detergent.. and then put regular detergent (powder kind) in the prewash spot.

 

honestly its the only thing that worked for us.

[HappyGrace]

Ours was terrible due to hard water. Lemishine is a miracle-nothing else worked. You can buy it at Walmart.

[Gooblink]

The same thing happened here, and we've been in our house for nearly 8 years.

 

A couple of months ago I tried using homemade dishwasher soap and it was a disaster. Since that time, I can't seem to get rid of that white film. I've tried vinegar, rinse agents, lemi-shine.... Sometimes it's a little better but then the problem comes back. When I hand wash the dishes, they are fine.

 

I do use Cascade and noticed the box was different, but it didn't occur to me the formula had changed (I'm not very observant!); maybe I'll try a new soap, too.

[profmom]

Thanks guys! We'll look for Lemi-Shine at Wal-Mart! Vinegar seems to work on the one load, but it doesn't fix the problem for the next load. What is most puzzling is that the problem started only a month ago, and everything was fine before that.

[Heather in AL]

I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV, but here's my theory:

 

The new formula causes the buildup when the heat/dry cycle kicks on. I had the same thing happen (my black-handled steak knives are RUINED!) and had to hand scrub every darn dish and every darn crevice on my flatware to get the stuff off. My glasses are still 'etched' and this is permanent. Only my plates show no lasting effects of this product. This was after only ONE wash with the 'new' Cascade (which, by the way, didn't say it had a new formula on it, but on the back in teeny letters, it mentioned it now had no phosphorus).

 

The reason I wonder if it's the heat cycle is this: I found one box of the 'old' formula left in the back of my cupboard, so I used it after returning the offending product to the store. My dishes were (and are) fine. In checking the dish soap I use for my pots & pans in the sink, it, too, is free of phosphorus, so the only thing I can think of is that the heat cycle does something to any residue that may be left on the dishes. Maybe it 'bakes' it on? It took me HOURS of scrubbing to get that stuff off my flatware, dishes and glasses. Anything plastic was ruined.

 

I disagree with the response in the link provided by mom2jjka (not mom2jjka, just the answer in the link she found!)... it is highly possible mineral/calcium build up is the culprit for some people, but since my dishes are fine with the older formula, I believe that discounts the build up theory for my case.

 

I'm half way through my box of regular stuff and am in a panic over what to do now. ALL of the dishwasher stuff is supposed to be free of phosphorus now, so what do I do? A friend of mine had the same thing happen with a different brand. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I hope to find one!!

 

Oh, our water is considered neither hard nor soft, but if I was forced to pick one, it would be closer to hard. We have never had a problem before.

 

I'm sticking to my unscientific theory that it has something to do with the heat dry. Anyone care to test that? I don't have the product anymore to try myself....

Edited June 21, 2010 by Heather in AL
because I can't spell this early with only one cup of coffee!

[Gooblink]

I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV, but here's my theory:

 

The new formula causes the buildup when the heat/dry cycle kicks on. I had the same thing happen (my black-handled steak knives are RUINED!) and had to hand scrub every darn dish and every darn crevice on my flatware to get the stuff off. My glasses are still 'etched' and this is permanent. Only my plates show no lasting effects of this product. This was after only ONE wash with the 'new' Cascade (which, by the way, didn't say it had a new formula on it, but on the back in teeny letters, it mentioned it now had no phosphorus).

 

The reason I wonder if it's the heat cycle is this: I found one box of the 'old' formula left in the back of my cupboard, so I used it after returning the offending product to the store. My dishes were (and are) fine. In checking the dish soap I use for my pots & pans in the sink, it, too, is free of phosphorus, so the only thing I can think of is that the heat cycle does something to any residue that may be left on the dishes. Maybe it 'bakes' it on? It took me HOURS of scrubbing to get that stuff off my flatware, dishes and glasses. Anything plastic was ruined.

 

I disagree with the response in the link provided by mom2jjka (not mom2jjka, just the answer in the link she found!)... it is highly possible mineral/calcium build up is the culprit for some people, but since my dishes are fine with the older formula, I believe that discounts the build up theory for my case.

 

I'm half way through my box of regular stuff and am in a panic over what to do now. ALL of the dishwasher stuff is supposed to be free of phosphorus now, so what do I do? A friend of mine had the same thing happen with a different brand. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I hope to find one!!

 

Oh, our water is considered neither hard nor soft, but if I was forced to pick one, it would be closer to hard. We have never had a problem before.

 

I'm sticking to my unscientific theory that it has something to do with the heat dry. Anyone care to test that? I don't have the product anymore to try myself....

 

Well, I don't use my heat/dry cycle (in order to cut down on energy usage) and I still get the film. :confused:

[profmom]

Thanks for the insight and theory, Heather! Very interesting! I'll have dh read it. (I returned that box of new Cascade too!)

 

You might try soaking your knives and other dishes in a sink of vinegar water. It worked for ours (including black handles) with no scrubbing!

Edited June 21, 2010 by profmom

[profmom]

Well, I don't use my heat/dry cycle (in order to cut down on energy usage) and I still get the film. :confused:

 

Hmmm...but maybe it's still because of phosphates (or not) in the detergent??

 

Here's the link with confirmation that Cascade's new formula is phosphate free.

Edited June 21, 2010 by profmom

[Lynnae]

I really think it's the lack of phosphates in the new formulas. I started having problems a few months ago, too. My brother, who works at a news station in Spokane, says that they did a news story about how people are finding that the new formulas don't work and are heading over the border to Idaho to buy boxes of dishwasher detergent in bulk, because Idaho hasn't outlawed the use of phosphates yet.

 

So far Lemishine is the only thing that's worked for us. Though I told my brother when I go to visit him in August, I'll be heading to Idaho to stock up on dishwasher detergent!

[Heather in AL]

Well, I don't use my heat/dry cycle (in order to cut down on energy usage) and I still get the film. :confused:

 

Well, durn. I thought I was on to something! :tongue_smilie:

 

OK... what are the other differences, then? The liquid I use in my sink is fine on my stuff. Could it be the amount of rinse water, or lack thereof? Anyone try an extra rinse (or two) without the heat/dry cycle?

 

My friend (the one I mentioned) started using a gel (Target brand or Publix brand) and so far, so good, so I'm *thinking* about trying that... maybe the powder is just too hard to rinse off. Anyone use a gel + no heat dry and still get the film?

Edited June 21, 2010 by Heather in AL
Spelling. Apparently I still need more coffee.

[Heather in AL]

Hmmm...but maybe it's still because of phosphates (or not) in the detergent??

 

Here's the link with confirmation that Cascade's new formula is phosphate free.

 

I'm positive this is the reason, but why, then, are our dishes fine when washed in the sink with soap that has no phosphates and left to air dry? :001_huh: It has to be something with the soap/dishwasher combo.

 

Hey, maybe if we figure this out, homeschooling will be in the news for a positive story, eh?:lol: ;)

[cjzimmer1]

Not sure where you live, but our state has a ban on phospherus that goes into effect July 1st. The phospherus binds to the calcium and other minerals and prevents them from accumulating on the dishes. Without the phospherous, that minerals deposit on the dishes and when they dry the minerals cause that film. SInce it's a ban on the phospherus all brands have to remove it from their product, so switching brands does nothing to alleviate the problem. CHeck the phospherus content or your soap (the old style Cascade is either 5.5 or 6.4% the new stuff is less the 0.5%). As far as fixing the problem, I have no idea. I just bought 13 boxes of the old formula Cascade before they are no longer available here. I'm hoping in a few years when that's gone they will have developed a better product.

[Heather in AL]

.... dishwashers use hotter water than hand washing. Anyone have thoughts on this? It hit me when I read an article from 2007 about hospitals and restaurants using hotter water than household machines, so their dishes wouldn't be as clean... (this is what I read http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/02/AR2007030201805.html ).

 

So, could the problem simply be that the hotter the water, the more 'stuff' is left behind? :bigear:

[twoplustrips]

THANK YOU!!!!!! It's the Cascade!!! I just made the connection! We have been battling this for about a month, too. We even paid to have a repairman come to look at our dishwasher. He could find nothing wrong. We started using JetDry, which seems to have helped somewhat... Check out the Cascade website - everyone is having trouble with the new Cascade formula leaving this white residue.

 

I'm so glad we didn't buy a new dishwasher over this (we were really close, figuring our 10-year-old dishwasher was the problem). Thank you for finally solving the mystery! Now, I need to get out and find a new dishwashing detergent!

 

Question: Would you call the company to ask for money to reimburse the cost of the repairman, the ruined dishes, and the box of detergent???

 

Kathy

Homeschooling Mama to:

DD 7

DS 4

DTriplets 1

[Ellie]

Have you changed the temperature on your water heater? This will affect the detergent. Of course, many dishwashers heat water anyway, so if yours does, this won't be the problem.:tongue_smilie:

 

I've always used Amway's dishwasher detergent and have never, ever had any problems like that. You might check in your community to see if there's a distributer nearby.

[stripe]

That's funny. My husband has been complaining about the dishes looking so nasty lately. Thank you for the answers, although I am not sure what the solution is.

[DianeW88]

We've had the same problem that started at the same time (about a month ago) and we use Cascade, too!! It must be their formula, because we've run the Jet Dry Dishwasher Cleaner twice and I've only noticed a slight improvement. Maybe I'll try a different brand and see what happens.

[Ellie]

I really think it's the lack of phosphates in the new formulas. I started having problems a few months ago, too. My brother, who works at a news station in Spokane, says that they did a news story about how people are finding that the new formulas don't work and are heading over the border to Idaho to buy boxes of dishwasher detergent in bulk, because Idaho hasn't outlawed the use of phosphates yet.

 

So far Lemishine is the only thing that's worked for us. Though I told my brother when I go to visit him in August, I'll be heading to Idaho to stock up on dishwasher detergent!

Amway's auto dishwash detergent is phospate-free, and I haven't had any problems at all since the change.

[RanchMom]

Same problem here! DH (engineer and all around fix-it man) put in a new thermocouple and the problem regressed. Now, it's back. The machine's only a hundred and ten in dishwasher years. So he's going to replace the OTHER thermocouple (they come in twinsets, I guess) and hope that works. As for vinegar, ditto. Works if you put it in every load.

It even works to clean up the formerly grainy looking glasses after a few trips through.

(Just pray your dm-i-l doesn't come for a visit until you get it fixed.):lol:

[RanchMom]

Oh, and DH also said to run the hot water in the faucet next to the dishwasher until it is hot. That will ensure that the DW gets water as hot as it can to start with.

We use Cascade, too. Hmm. . .

[BikeBookBread]

Hmmm...but maybe it's still because of phosphates (or not) in the detergent??

 

Here's the link with confirmation that Cascade's new formula is phosphate free.

 

This is what it is. I posted thread about this three weeks ago...good info there. I finally found the combo for our water:

 

Method Smarty Dish cubes (expensive :glare:) plus LemiShine -or- the BASIC Cascade with Dawn plus Lemishine (not the "ultra" - Costco version, or "complete" - grocery store version)

[Guest Katia]

Ok. I am trying to figure out why, if using the vinegar works to fix this problem and clean your dishes........why are you not using the vinegar in the d/w each and every time? And NOT using the commercial d/w detergent?

 

Vinegar is cheap. It is natural (read: no chemicals). It is readily available. You don't need to use a lot of it. And.....it cleans and shines!

 

So.......why don't you-all just switch to using vinegar? I've been using just white vinegar in my d/w for the last two or three years. My dishes are sparkling clean and shiny. No film. No dirt.

 

Just ditch that nasty commercial stuff and use the vinegar. It's all you need. Really.

[BikeBookBread]

Ok. I am trying to figure out why, if using the vinegar works to fix this problem and clean your dishes........why are you not using the vinegar in the d/w each and every time? And NOT using the commercial d/w detergent?

 

Vinegar is cheap. It is natural (read: no chemicals). It is readily available. You don't need to use a lot of it. And.....it cleans and shines!

 

So.......why don't you-all just switch to using vinegar? I've been using just white vinegar in my d/w for the last two or three years. My dishes are sparkling clean and shiny. No film. No dirt.

 

Just ditch that nasty commercial stuff and use the vinegar. It's all you need. Really.

 

Sometimes I have to use *both* Lemishine and vinegar... or do a vinegar rinse after washing.

 

If I only used vinegar (no detergent) I just wouldn't have clean dishes. I have tried it actually, and it was like splashing water around. I might as well just give up on the dishwasher and hand-wash everything, which is not the most environmentally friendly thing to do, given the amount of water used hand-washing versus machine-washing, especially in a desert area where water is a premium.

Edited June 21, 2010 by BikeBookBread

[IdahoHomeschooler]

Just FYI: White King laundry booster can be used in a dishwasher, and it is basically a phosphorus additive. I buy it in Washington, a phosphorus-banned state, at Fred Meyers/Kroger. Also, a package of Lemon-Ade Kool-ade works the same as Lemi-Shine. It is basically citric acid and will help counter the soap base ph. A homemade version of dish detergent I have used contained 1 part White King, 1 part Washing Soda, I part borax, with some Kool-aid added. For extra dirty dishes, adding some Wal-Mart brand powdered detergent can be helpful. It is cheap and got good consumer reports scores, IIRC. Vinegar wasn't nearly as helpful with the chronic build-up as Kool-Ade or the Lemi-Shine is.

[The Girls' Mom]

I started using the Tang, vinegar, detergent combo mentioned in the other thread last week, and it's like magic! All that nasty film washed right off, and my dishes are CLEAN again!

 

ETA: I had tried just vinegar and it didn't help.

[fairfarmhand]

Ok. I am trying to figure out why, if using the vinegar works to fix this problem and clean your dishes........why are you not using the vinegar in the d/w each and every time? And NOT using the commercial d/w detergent?

 

Vinegar is cheap. It is natural (read: no chemicals). It is readily available. You don't need to use a lot of it. And.....it cleans and shines!

 

So.......why don't you-all just switch to using vinegar? I've been using just white vinegar in my d/w for the last two or three years. My dishes are sparkling clean and shiny. No film. No dirt.

 

Just ditch that nasty commercial stuff and use the vinegar. It's all you need. Really.

 

 

hard water....I think a gallon of vinegar wouldn't cut it around here. It is BAD!

[Lynnae]

Just FYI: White King laundry booster can be used in a dishwasher, and it is basically a phosphorus additive. I buy it in Washington, a phosphorus-banned state, at Fred Meyers/Kroger. Also, a package of Lemon-Ade Kool-ade works the same as Lemi-Shine. It is basically citric acid and will help counter the soap base ph. A homemade version of dish detergent I have used contained 1 part White King, 1 part Washing Soda, I part borax, with some Kool-aid added. For extra dirty dishes, adding some Wal-Mart brand powdered detergent can be helpful. It is cheap and got good consumer reports scores, IIRC. Vinegar wasn't nearly as helpful with the chronic build-up as Kool-Ade or the Lemi-Shine is.

Thank you so much! I'm going to look for White King next time I'm at Fred Meyer!

[profmom]

This is what it is. I posted thread about this three weeks ago...good info there. I finally found the combo for our water:

 

Method Smarty Dish cubes (expensive :glare:) plus LemiShine -or- the BASIC Cascade with Dawn plus Lemishine (not the "ultra" - Costco version, or "complete" - grocery store version)

 

Thanks everyone! I just read the thread above too. Right now the dishwasher is running with Lemi-shine! (Our fingers are crossed!)

[Alphabetika]

Run, don't walk, and buy a canister of Lemi-shine. (I got mine at Target). We have serious hard water here, and we had tried everything (Jet-Dry, special Jet-Dry thing you run through the washer, making my own detergent wiht citric acid, running vinegar through, you name it!) We were ready to buy our second new dishwasher in five years. We even had a dishwasher repairman tell us there's nothing we can do about the awful film all over our dishes because the water is so hard here.

 

My middle dd loves to do research and she's also very frugal and wanted to save us money. After researching the cost of new dishwashers, she found out about Lemi-shine. She and dh bought some, followed the directions, and now we have clean, shiny dishes for the first time in 13 years. It cost about $3 for the container. You have to keep using it but it's worth it.

 

HTH!

[Alphabetika]

Run, don't walk, and buy a canister of Lemi-shine. (I got mine at Target). We have serious hard water here, and we had tried everything (Jet-Dry, special Jet-Dry thing you run through the washer, making my own detergent wiht citric acid, running vinegar through, you name it!) We were ready to buy our second new dishwasher in five years. We even had a dishwasher repairman tell us there's nothing we can do about the awful film all over our dishes because the water is so hard here.

 

My middle dd loves to do research and she's also very frugal and wanted to save us money. After researching the cost of new dishwashers, she found out about Lemi-shine. She and dh bought some, followed the directions, and now we have clean, shiny dishes for the first time in 13 years. It cost about $3 for the container. You have to keep using it but it's worth it.

 

HTH!

[Alphabetika]

Run, don't walk, and buy a canister of Lemi-shine. (I got mine at Target). We have serious hard water here, and we had tried everything (Jet-Dry, special Jet-Dry thing you run through the washer, making my own detergent wiht citric acid, running vinegar through, you name it!) We were ready to buy our second new dishwasher in five years. We even had a dishwasher repairman tell us there's nothing we can do about the awful film all over our dishes because the water is so hard here.

 

My middle dd loves to do research and she's also very frugal and wanted to save us money. After researching the cost of new dishwashers, she found out about Lemi-shine. She and dh bought some, followed the directions, and now we have clean, shiny dishes for the first time in 13 years. It cost about $3 for the container. You have to keep using it but it's worth it.

 

HTH!

[Alphabetika]

Aaaack! Sorry about the TRIPLE post! Something went haywire here on the computer. Maybe it needs some Lemi-shine....:)

[profmom]

Lemi-shine seems to have worked well here! Thanks so much, guys!! :party:

[teamturner]

Do you have hard water?

It could be lime/mineral deposits in your water.

 

This was our problem.

 

We were having the same issue and also the top rack wasn't getting clean. In fact, the glasses on the top rack had stuff/food that looked like it had been rinsed onto them and didn't come off. My dh took out the sprayer and we found there was a ton of hard chunks of stuff from our water in there that was clogging the sprayer. He soaked it in a vinegar solution overnight and then continued the next morning banging the stuff out of the holes. And he ran the dishwasher w/vinegar. It is better, but I'm still seeing food deposits on our glasswear. I think we may end up just buying a new sprayer. I've switched dishwasher cleaners to another natural one so I'm not sure if the soap is the issue.

 

Anyone have a great natural dishwasher soap they like?

[KS_]

Just FYI: White King laundry booster can be used in a dishwasher, and it is basically a phosphorus additive. I buy it in Washington, a phosphorus-banned state, at Fred Meyers/Kroger.

 

I found this at my Fred Meyer today, however, on the package I bought, it says it doesn't contain any phosphates. Did they change the formula on this, too? (I am running a load of dishes with some added, so I'll see how it does.)

[profmom]

I'm so happy that I feel like emailing all my friends and family and telling them about Lemi-shine! (But that would be pretty corny, huh?)

[IdahoHomeschooler]

I found this at my Fred Meyer today, however, on the package I bought, it says it doesn't contain any phosphates. Did they change the formula on this, too? (I am running a load of dishes with some added, so I'll see how it does.)

 

 

Hmm, my box says it contains tripolyphosphates under the "caution" header on the side of the box. I heard about this product from the laundry boards over on gardenweb. They are very serious about their laundry, lol. The other ingredient is sodium carbonate, aka Washing Soda.

[KS_]

Hmm, my box says it contains tripolyphosphates under the "caution" header on the side of the box. I heard about this product from the laundry boards over on gardenweb. They are very serious about their laundry, lol. The other ingredient is sodium carbonate, aka Washing Soda.

 

Well, mine has the caution info on the side of the box, but doesn't say anything about what it does contain. After the "Keep out of reach of children," it says, "Contains no phosphates or chlorine." I'm betting this is a new formula :glare: I didn't see any marked difference in my dishes - there didn't seem to be any more white film, but some of the dishes that have it on them, still do.

[LarlaB]

I started using the Tang, vinegar, detergent combo mentioned in the other thread last week, and it's like magic! All that nasty film washed right off, and my dishes are CLEAN again!

 

ETA: I had tried just vinegar and it didn't help.

 

Do you use that in every load, or only periodically?

[angela in ohio]

We use the Lemi Shine once a month (run it through twice,) because we have icky water, which leaves film and coloring even after we soften it. :D It takes care of the problem.