Our math woes

[Rhonda in TX]

I'm posting this here because I'm most concerned with getting DS (8th grade next year) ready for high school math.

 

DS has struggled with math for several years. We switched to CLE about 2.5 years ago because I felt he needed a workbook (copying problems was torture), and I liked all the review built into the program. However, he placed about a year behind, so I've been pushing him through, whether he really got the concepts or not. I felt that he would get it eventually. This year, I bumped him up to grade level and we trudged through. I gave him the IOWA test a couple of weeks ago. I haven't gotten the results yet, but I did get over it before sending it in. In math computation, he missed 17 out of 31 questions. I'm not sure how much of that was rushing to get it done and be finished. (In math concepts and estimation, he got 83% right.) Again, not official results, just my checking.

 

I looked into switching him to Saxon, knowing it moves slowly, and has lots of review. I gave him the Saxon placement test and he barely tested into 8/7. He was missing things like adding and multiplying fractions. He just can't remember how to do it. (he missed some of those on the IOWA as well, but not all of them) He also seems to really struggle with word problems. He has Asperger's, so I don't know if that's part of it.

 

I feel that I have really messed up and I don't know where to go from here. If I put him in 8/7 next year, I feel he will never be ready for Algebra in 9th grade. However, if I put him in pre-algebra (or 1/2), I'm afraid he won't be ready for that and will end up making no headway next year.

 

I've also looked at Lial's BCM. Would that be a good choice? Is there enough review?

 

BTW, DH and I both have degrees in math, which I think is a problem, in that I don't "get" his struggles. DH thinks we should hold him back a year in math. He pointed out to me that his dad is horrible at math, and DS is definitely like FIL in many ways.

 

(DD is also behind in math, but I don't worry about her as much and feel that I can catch her up and she'll be okay. Her IOWA testing was much, much better than DS's.)

[Julie]

Rhonda,

 

I don't have in brilliant advice, but since copying was one of your concerns have you considered Kinetic Books? I just bought it, don't have much experience, but I like what I see thus far. Watching the demo and getting the code to download the first chapter might be worth your time.

 

As I understand it, if a child struggles with a particular concept the program geneates more of them. Also, it has solutions for the problems, hints to solve and easy access to lesson review.

 

HTH

[Rhonda in TX]

I'm sure it's just me, but I can't absorb everything on that site. The only download sample I see is for the Physics class. They do seem to have Pre-Algebra, but it's not listed under every option. Since I'm not sure DS is ready for pre-algebra, I don't know if it would be a good fit for him. Also, we have a Mac and the FAQ says it works with 10.3-10.5. We have OS 10.6. Ugh.

 

It is interesting, though, so I'll definitely keep it in mind.

[Ellie]

I feel that I have really messed up and I don't know where to go from here. If I put him in 8/7 next year, I feel he will never be ready for Algebra in 9th grade. However, if I put him in pre-algebra (or 1/2), I'm afraid he won't be ready for that and will end up making no headway next year.

Math 87 is pre-algebra. So is Alg. 1/2. :-)

 

If your ds placed into Math 87, then he'd be on track for algebra in the 9th.

 

Saxon does not move "slower" than CLE (or any other publisher). It moves different.

 

I can't tell you, of course, whether Math 87 would be best for your ds; I just wanted to make you feel better about his doing Math 87.

[Rhonda in TX]

Math 87 is pre-algebra. So is Alg. 1/2. :-)

 

If your ds placed into Math 87, then he'd be on track for algebra in the 9th.

 

Saxon does not move "slower" than CLE (or any other publisher). It moves different.

 

I can't tell you, of course, whether Math 87 would be best for your ds; I just wanted to make you feel better about his doing Math 87.

 

I didn't realize that. I thought the progression was 87, then 1/2, then Algebra 1.

 

That's good to know. Thanks.

[EKS]

How about Lial's Basic College Math? You can target the areas he needs work on and also do prealgebra. This would be much more difficult with a program like Saxon where the teaching of a particular concept is spread throughout the book.

[gingersmom]

When my daughter came out of public/private school I had her take the Saxon placement test. She had struggled with 6th grade math (got her a tutor) and only fared slightly better with 7th grade math.

 

Saxon placed her in 7/6 which after about 2 months it became clear she was way ahead of.

 

We moved onto 87 and it was fine. Their is pre-algebra covered in 87. The first 3/4 of the book my daughter thought was easy but the last 20 lessons cover completely new stuff.

[Julie in MN]

In math computation, he missed 17 out of 31 questions. I'm not sure how much of that was rushing to get it done and be finished. (In math concepts and estimation, he got 83% right.) Again, not official results, just my checking.

 

I looked into switching him to Saxon, knowing it moves slowly, and has lots of review.

 

You know, I personally don't think computation is a measure of any math program. Computation for the most part is a test of how well your student has their math facts down. Math facts must be practiced outside of any math program. Some programs try to claim they work on math facts, but really that's just to please parents. No public school teacher I ever knew fell for that one. They did math drill in class and sent math drill home. Now the upper level computation of fractions and such can go either way. Some folks use a program for fractions; I chose to just work on fractions in the same way we worked on multiplication and other math facts.

 

As far as word problems, I have never liked any program except Singapore, but not sure how hard it would be to use just their challenging word problems (at a lower level) without having learned the Singapore method?

 

When you get to Algebra, I thought I'd mention that Math Relief includes worksheets with problems already written on them. Also, it basically includes pre-algebra, so often students can enter Math Relief algebra earlier than other programs. And in the end, Math Relief will take them further than most algebra programs. I'm a fan, can you tell :)

 

And I don't think of it as "holding him back" -- with homeschool it's just doing math at the student's level. And if they start out back a ways and end up way ahead, you don't have to stay back, either.

 

Julie

[Guest]

It seems to me that the problem may very well be linked to Asperger's. In the stacks of books I have (my daughter is also an Aspie), all talk about fractions and decimals and percents being very hard for most kids on the spectrum; they also say many run into problems with either algebra or geometry -- but many are good at one or the other.

 

Fractions were hard for my daughter to grasp as well. I tried using a whole variety of strategies: having her play around with measuring cups, seeing how many different ways she could use them to get to 1 cup, then 2, then 4... I also used Marilyn Burns's book Fractions, Decimals and Percents, which had hands-on activities. One I remember was cutting out lots of brightly colored circles, then cutting some into halves, some into quarters, some into eighths. We made pictures or designs and then would count up the total circles used. Marilyn Burns is really outstanding at the concepts underlying the formulas or particular ways you go about solving a problem. Her books are not textbooks, but collections of anywhere from a dozen to around twenty lessons written out in great detail.

 

I had to do lots of this type of thing before moving to the written symbolic work.

 

Have you tried the Key to Fractions booklets at all with your son? They move at a (glacially) slow pace but are very, very thorough and easy to understand. Lots of white space on the pages, no distracting color photos, if your child is distracted by those.

 

On the other hand, maybe your son needs more visuals. If he does, I know I've seen people on the boards talk about visual-spatial math programs, which might be a good fit. Marilyn Burns uses pattern blocks a lot, and I remember using those to find how many of one design, like a diamond, fit into a larger shape, and then doing fraction work with those.

 

If you're worried about approaching algebra, I'd highly recommend two things:

 

--Marilyn Burns's Algebraic Thinking for grades 6-8, which starts out each lesson with activities and only then moves to written work;

 

--Hands-On Equations, which is very graphic, using manipulatives first, then drawings, and only then formal mathematical symbols.

 

I'd spend some summer time working with some of these materials and then see where you are.

[Rhonda in TX]

And I don't think of it as "holding him back" -- with homeschool it's just doing math at the student's level. And if they start out back a ways and end up way ahead, you don't have to stay back, either.

 

Julie

 

I know this intellectually, but as someone who took Algebra in 8th grade and went all the way up through Calculus in high school, I'm panicking. DH is so much better at looking at this rationally. I need the reminder.

 

It seems to me that the problem may very well be linked to Asperger's. In the stacks of books I have (my daughter is also an Aspie), all talk about fractions and decimals and percents being very hard for most kids on the spectrum; they also say many run into problems with either algebra or geometry -- but many are good at one or the other.

 

 

I wasn't aware of this, but it does make sense. You gave me some good tips. I'll be checking them out.

[Rhonda in TX]

How about Lial's Basic College Math? You can target the areas he needs work on and also do prealgebra. This would be much more difficult with a program like Saxon where the teaching of a particular concept is spread throughout the book.

 

I'm worried about lack of review with BCM. He loses skills so quickly without the review. It might be worth it, though, to get the book and see if it would help.

[Susan C.]

Hi Rhonda!

I don't have any experience with Asperger's, but I do with the math!

 

It is very important not to push the math. It is better to be below level and build confidence. When they "get it" they speed up at that point, and then you have a chance to "catch up." I do know kids that take pre-algebra in 9th grade, and it is offered at the high school. So it is common knowledge that some kids are not ready for algebra in 9th grade.

 

I fretted and fretted with math..... but what it came down to is no matter how much I planned what level would happen in such and such grade, my kids did what they could when they were ready. We hit the wall in Algebra 2 with ds, and had to repeat that. Way too late, there were signs much earlier, a lot like what you see now. He still feels he can't do math, but he was young in his grade, and I always pushed to do what math we were supposed to be doing. For some reason I felt we had to be ready for calculus in college..... he even took it, and failed it.... There is a reason that there are ten college algebra classes at ds college, and only one each of the calculus classes with only 6-8 kids in each one.... And, I looked at the college algebra book at the bookstore, it can be done after an Algebra 2 course if it was understood well.

[Faithr]

I have done Saxon with all three of my older kids. We've occasionally tried other curricula but we always come back to Saxon. 8/7 is pre-Algebra as another poster commented. My kids all did 8/7 in 7th grade and then Algebra in 8th. 1/2 is just in there for kids who need another year to get it under their belt before they tackle Algebra. So I would highly recommend Saxon. It has worked very well for us thus far. What I would do is get a graph notebook and begin working on writing problems out and showing work. I'd also have your son take all the drill worksheets as he goes along. We skip problems in the chapters. We do all the even numbered problems for even chapters and all the odd for odd numbered chapters. IF the student doesn't do well or isn't working, we have the option to go back and have them work the other problems in the lesson too.

 

Saxon will start over from the very beginning for review. This makes my kids comfortable because they are methodically reviewing every single thing they've learned so far. It builds accuracy and confidence. At some point my kids have gotten bored with Saxon. We try another program and then my kids (not me) demand to go back to Saxon. The approach really hold the student's hand and gently teaches them. The trouble is with math you really have to spend TIME as it gets more complex. It just takes a while to do upper level math. Once a kid accepts that, they actually enjoy Saxon (at least my kids do).

 

Using the graph paper has helped wonderfully with precision and neatness.

 

Also, when we first started Saxon back when my oldest was going into 7th, she placed just below what Saxon recommended for 7/6, but we went ahead anyway. And she was fine. I think because of all the review, it still worked out for her.

 

Also, I have found that accuracy is developmental. Younger kids/middle school age ones, often want to rush through and don't want to focus. Learning to be accurate takes patience and maturity. So don't despair over that. That is a skill that can be taught and comes much more naturally with maturity. Just get working on it slowly but steadily and you'll see improvement.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Faithr
had another thought!

[hsmamainva]

My Asperger's son has done very well with Teaching Textbooks.

 

I know there are pros and cons to the curriculum, but it's been wonderful for him.

 

There's a lot of review in each lesson, so he doesn't lose skills, and he's headed for the community college after graduation, so getting him through TT Precalc, which he's taking next year, will be just fine for him.

 

I'm not sure if they have a demo CD or anything, but I know they have placement tests on their website. Their Prealgebra text has a very good 'basic math review' at the beginning of the course, so he should be able to go straight into the Prealgebra course.

 

(It also has a very good resale value, at least in my area).

 

Hope this helps!

 

Wanted to add.....Take a look at the TT Prealgebra table of contents on their website.

 

They cover adding and subtracting, multiplying and dividing, fractions and decimals, and percents and measurement...all before starting any algebra topics, so the first 67 lessons are a review of basic math.

Edited June 6, 2010 by hsmamainva
added info