I am starting to worry about Saxon for Algebra...

[AuntieM]

It seems that there are some pretty strong opinions about Saxon on this board, and how folks desperately want to steer clear of it. Can someone clue me in on what's supposed to be so bad about it? Perhaps refer me to an article or study? Or, on the other hand, reassure me that it's going to be sufficient for my serious, science-minded student as long as he enjoys and understands it? We have only just dipped a toe in the waters of Algebra 1, but completed 87 (3rd ed w/prealgebra) with few struggles.

 

Are there dark clouds on the horizon? Do I need to have a backup plan in place? (FWIW, I did read the thread on SAT math and understand that will take a season of prep all it's own, so I don't really see that as the main issue.)

 

Thanks for your insight!

[kathleen]

I don't know if there is anything anyone can say to reassure you completely. Everything anyone says is purely anecdotal evidence. But, I have heard all the negatives over the years about Saxon, and we stuck with it and are pleased we did. Neither of my children are math/science guys, but they both did very well with Saxon, loved its incremental approach, and both did very well on the SAT math. I have a good friend whose husband is an engineer at Intel, and he chose Saxon over Foerster for his children. My son had a good friend in college who was a physics major--he used Saxon through Advanced Math, scored a 780 on his SAT (without additional study) and tutored people in math at college.

 

As I recall, Janet in WA's boys used Saxon and went on to scienc-y majors at college and have done well (perhaps she will chime in, too).

 

I even printed out a message from someone over at Vegsource from 2002 who wrote about hearing the (then rather newish) criticism of Saxon. Her children had been using Saxon since Math 65 and had gone through Calculus. She said, "both kids learned math so very, very well that indeed they COULD (and did) utilize their "Saxon" math in ever higher and more creative/critical-thinking forms. Both conquered not only their SAT I, but also SAT II tests in math/sciences with absolutely flying colors. Dd (now a college junior) has cheerfully gone on to choose a double major in mathematics and nuclear physics at her chosen college--and it is an intensely science/math oriented school at that. Younger brother ds is thrilled to utilize his higher math for a double major in mechanical and electrical engineering at his very science/math oriented college. Saxon not only prepared them wonderfully well, but taught them without much input from me."

 

I will say that Saxon may not be right for everyone. But it certainly is a fine program, and we absolutely love it.

[forty-two]

Most of the criticism I've seen about Saxon has to do with Saxon students' problem solving skills and their ability to apply what they have learned to problems that are radically different in form to what they have done in Saxon. It seems that some students are able to generalize what they have learned from Saxon and that some students can't. I'd guess that math-y students would be more likely to generalize without help than non-math-y students, but you probably can't guess ahead of time with perfect accuracy if Saxon (or any program, really) will supply your student with good general problem solving skills.

 

So if Saxon has worked for you thus far and you and your student like it, I would say go ahead and use it, but do regular spot checks with problems - especially difficult problems - from other textbooks. As long as your student can, with a bit of effort, apply what he learned from Saxon to other problems, he is probably doing just fine. If at any point he starts having serious difficulties, then you would want to work on those skills in another text for a bit to solidify them. If he ends up having perpetual difficulties, then it might be time to switch. But as long as you regularly check to be sure that everything he learned to that point is easily transferable to other problems, then you won't be stuck with the nasty surprise of a senior who did great in all of Saxon but can't apply it to save his life - you were keeping track all along.

 

(Really, I would recommend doing spot checks with a different math program no matter what your main program is.)

[Brenda in MA]

Are there dark clouds on the horizon? Do I need to have a backup plan in place?

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

I think it really depends on your student. I had one go through Saxon from Math 65 through the first half of Advanced Math before I knew he was really having troubles in the application. Saxon was a great fit for him because he needed a lot of practice to cement concepts. While he did pretty well with Algebra 1 & 2, he struggled in Advanced Math because the concepts taught there are much more abstract than those covered in the earlier Algebra books.

 

After completing half of Advanced Math last year, I put him in Aleks over the summer. He only tested about half way through Algebra 2, and he had trouble with the application problems. I looked for a new program at that time, and he is using Chalkdust PreCalc now. It's a better fit for him because he is very visual, and Chalkdust PreCalc makes heavy use of the graphing calculator, which Saxon does not. Seeing functions and their graphs really helped him understand the underlying concepts. He also enjoys that Chalkdust has quite a few real world application problems at the end of each problem set. For this child, it's important to see what learning this complex math will help him do in the future.

 

Am I unhappy that he used Saxon for all those years -- not really. We probably should have switched a bit earlier, but I am thankful that the repetition of Saxon really helped him to nail the mechanics of Algebra.

 

I have a younger son who is using Math 87 this year after using Singapore 1-6. He is doing much better with Saxon than my other son, and I can see that he would probably do fine with the upper level Saxon books. He's more of a math-intuitive naturally, and he doesn't seem to have trouble applying the knowledge. I'm not sure what I'll have him use for Algebra yet.

 

I guess my advice would be similar to that of the last poster. If you and your son like Saxon, then keep using it. You might, however, check how he's doing with applications problems by trying something like Aleks periodically or over the summer. Like a lot of things, I'd take the selection of math books on a year to year basis.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[Pam in MA]

Go to the website http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com and scroll down to the bottom to the curriculae reviews. . . there are several 8th grade and Algebra I reviews, including Saxon. HTH

[langfam]

My 2 cents:

 

DS#1 is very mathy. He has used Saxon Math since K. Is now completing Saxon Adv. Math. His whole life he has sought out projects for his own enjoyment and they all include some kind of math (e.g. computer programming, 3-D modeling). So he has on his own taken what he's learned from Saxon and applied it outside the textbook. Saxon has worked for him.

 

DD is very good at memorizing. She memorized the processes, always scored well on Saxon tests but was never challenged to reason through difficult problems. Now has trouble with solving outside the text and what she's used to.

 

DS#2 can't do the incremental method. Because he's given bits and pieces of concepts, he can't connect the dots.

 

So Saxon can work for some types of kids but not for others. If you do use Saxon, I would supplement with something else. Foerster's can be purchased used inexpensively and has lots of application type word problems.

[Anne/Ankara]

I feel Saxon has been a very good choice for us-- we did it from Saxon K up to this year, Algebra II, and plan to continue next year with Advanced Math. This is for my ds, now 8th grade. The constant review has been very beneficial, and I think the word problems are very good (drawing from chemistry and physics in the Algebra II book). Last year as a 12 year old, ds scored 680 on the SAT math section, undoubtedly due to preparation from Saxon math.

 

But we've also supplemented Saxon from the very beginning (as we do all subjects!), with things like Singapore Math in the elementary years, Elementary & Middle School Math Olympiad tests, Mathcounts, Academic League math competitions, Kumon Math, Art of Problem Solving online math course in Number Theory, Teaching Company's various math series like Joy of Math, Algebra I, Geometry, etc).

 

I recommend Saxon as a fine textbook program that has really worked for us.

[ChrisN in NY]

My oldest was one who did AWFUL with Saxon's incremental approach. I don't remember how far we got through the book, but he just couldn't take it anymore! I sold the Algebra 1, and bought Jacob's. We've done fine with that since. FWIW, my oldest scored 1520 on the (old) SAT; I don't remember what his math score was but it would've been 720 at the worst.

 

I think Saxon is one of those love/hate things. Either you love it or you don't. It's not my style any more than it was my ds's. My first experience with it was tutoring a homeschooled girl from church in Algebra 1 when my oldest was in 6th or 7th grade. I found *some* of the explanations very confusing... making the material harder than it really was. Sometimes the increments were very small, and other times they were so large, which sometimes made the concept harder than it really was.

 

That said, however, I've been asked to tutor another homeschooled girl in Algebra 2 in the fall. She's used Saxon all the way through. The mom knows Saxon isn't exactly my favorite math curriculum and asked what I'd recommend. For her dd, though, I recommended sticking with the Saxon; it'll be easier for me to adjust than it will be for the girl.

 

If it's worked for you thus far, stick with it. If you find it doesn't work, you can change it then.

[Laurie]

My son has used Saxon all the way through 8/7 but I'm not sure whether to stick with it. First, my biggest concern is the way Geometry is integrated into the Algebra courses. If we stop homeschooling at some point during his high school years I'm assuming he'd have to take Geometry as a separate course even if he had already covered some of it in Saxon. If we continue to homeschool, I also worry about whether I'll be able to help him with the higher levels. I know that Saxon has a solutions guide, not just an answer key, but would that be enough for me? To be perfectly honest, the plan that appeals to me the most is sitting with my son in the family room and watching dvd lessons from a real math teacher who is actually enthusiastic about math! I liked the demos of the Chalkdust teacher...I think he could be my math messiah/savior. But so far I haven't been able to stop choking over the price and place my order.

[Janet in WA]

As I recall, Janet in WA's boys used Saxon and went on to scienc-y majors at college and have done well (perhaps she will chime in, too).

Chiming in LOL. Yes, we used Saxon. Both sons did well on both the SAT and the ACT. Middle ds did major in marine biology, and had no trouble at all with the math he encountered as a science major (except for some initial overconfidence in his first class, as I described in another thread). He has since switched his major to journalism, but not because of any problems with math. Youngest son is a creative kind of guy and is majoring in psychology with a minor in music. He doesn't need math any higher than college algebra (equivalent to pre-calculus) for that major, but he's done fine with that too -- placed into it easily by virtue of his ACT score after finishing only half of Saxon's Advanced Mathematics in his jr. year of high school. That's our story, and I'm stickin' to it.

 

ETA: The truth is, I don't think that either of my sons is really math-minded. Even my marine biology major wasn't really science/math minded -- he just has an intense interest in marine life. He found after two years of college that while he still has an interest in marine life, he isn't interested in it from the aspect of being a scientist.

[Janet in WA]

 

My son has used Saxon all the way through 8/7 but I'm not sure whether to stick with it. First, my biggest concern is the way Geometry is integrated into the Algebra courses. If we stop homeschooling at some point during his high school years I'm assuming he'd have to take Geometry as a separate course even if he had already covered some of it in Saxon. If we continue to homeschool, I also worry about whether I'll be able to help him with the higher levels. I know that Saxon has a solutions guide, not just an answer key, but would that be enough for me? To be perfectly honest, the plan that appeals to me the most is sitting with my son in the family room and watching dvd lessons from a real math teacher who is actually enthusiastic about math! I liked the demos of the Chalkdust teacher...I think he could be my math messiah/savior. But so far I haven't been able to stop choking over the price and place my order.

what would be your reasons for wanting to continue with Saxon? Would it be comfort and familiarity? Something that seems to have worked for your son so far?

[Laurie]

what would be your reasons for wanting to continue with Saxon? Would it be comfort and familiarity? Something that seems to have worked for your son so far?

 

Yes, familiarity, comfort, and success!

I think we could manage with the next levels of Saxon, and just assume that we may need to rely more on the DIVE cd's and/or help in the evening from dad. I've just got to make a decision about math ...then I'll have more time to worry about foreign language!

[Nan in Mass]

I agree with this post. Lots of people seem to do fine with Saxon, but mine didn't. As someone else said, mine couldn't "connect the dots", and Saxon has an awful lot of dots to connect. Singapore teaches those connections and is fairly careful not to use repetative wording in the word problems, so you have to actually be able to change the English into math in order to solve the problems. If you have a child who can connect those dots, you might be fine with Saxon. It was pretty obvious mine couldn't. I waited awhile to see if they'd catch on, but they continued to be unable to use their math elsewhere.

-Nan

[Christine]

It seems that there are some pretty strong opinions about Saxon on this board, and how folks desperately want to steer clear of it. Can someone clue me in on what's supposed to be so bad about it? Perhaps refer me to an article or study? Or, on the other hand, reassure me that it's going to be sufficient for my serious, science-minded student as long as he enjoys and understands it? We have only just dipped a toe in the waters of Algebra 1, but completed 87 (3rd ed w/prealgebra) with few struggles.

 

Are there dark clouds on the horizon? Do I need to have a backup plan in place? (FWIW, I did read the thread on SAT math and understand that will take a season of prep all it's own, so I don't really see that as the main issue.)

 

Thanks for your insight!

 

Saxon is bad "for me". Because I'm not a math person. I've never done double unknowns in algebra (like x and y), and it offers ME no back-up.

 

However, my oldest is using it and likes it. (And I have a good friend / math major just 3 houses down that has said she'll help if the need ever arises -- it has yet to.)

 

I did change for my youngers though, but again, it was for me as much as for them. . .

[Michelle in MO]

Even though I didn't like Saxon, and Saxon didn't work well at all with my older two girls, it's obvious that Saxon is still a good math program that works well with many homeschoolers. So, if it's working well for your children and they're learning well, testing well, etc., then I would continue using it.

 

I may be wrong about this, but it seems like one of the keys to the overall success with Saxon is, perhaps, starting the program when your children are young and continuing to use it consistently. I noticed that the year we used Saxon, even though my older two girls really struggled with the way the material was presented, my youngest, who was in 1st grade, did fairly well with the material.

 

I noted this on another post about math, but one thing to consider is that some classical Christian schools, like Logos School in Moscow, Idaho, and Veritas Academy in Lancaster, PA, use Saxon through about 6th or 7th grade. Jim Nance, who also teaches Introductory Logic and Intermediate Logic at Logos and is their upper-level math teacher, gave a talk last year on "Teaching Math Classically" at the ACCS Conference in Atlanta. In it, he explained why the school chose to use Saxon for the earlier grades but switched to Foerster's for Algebra I and II (and I think they used Jacob's for Geometry, but don't quote me on that one).

 

Anyway, you might try to listen to his talk via the WordMP3 website. The bottom line, however, is that Saxon works well for some kids and families and not for others. Everyone needs to find what works best for their own children.

 

HTH!

[Nestof3]

It was a perfect fit for my son. He really needed the review. He used the DIVE CD for Alg 2/Trig and did very well.

[AuntieM]

Sorry I have not said so sooner, it's been crazy-busy at my house.

 

I will get my hands on one of the other texts (Foerster's, perhaps) and give him a selection of problems from time to time. It seems a good check for the ability to approach problems that may not be worded exactly as expected. He does like Saxon, and has done well so far, so I will plan to stick with it. But I appreciate all that you've shared; I am guessing that my daughter will not be happy with Saxon all the way through and now I have a great list of ideas/options for her! Thanks for setting my mind at ease. Each and every one of you is a terrific teaching mom!