Males and maturity

[jld]

Dh has been telling me that boys mature later than girls, and that while dd matured academically (really plunged into schoolwork) around 11 1/2, ds may not do this until 13 or 14.

 

I think dh is very smart, and generally trust his judgment. However, when I read various posts here, it seems like some young men are not very motivated academically until 15 or 16, or even 17 or 18.

 

When did your sons become intense about schoolwork? In jr. high? High school? Not until college? How did you negotiate schoolwork before their own interests propelled them?

 

I'd really like to hear your story, especially in regard to specific subjects, if possible (for example, maybe your son really took off in math in 8th grade, but didn't develop an appreciation for literary analysis until his senior year, that sort of thing), including any comments your son/s may have made on this. Thank you!

 

And thank you to Jane, whose thread on potential inspired this! :)

[Melissa in Australia]

My ds started to get interested at 15.

His younger brother is 14 and still views schoolwork as torture.

 

My dh has told me he wasn't interested in school work until 16.

[JWSJ]

While my son is still young (9yo), I think I can answer your question from my school days and as a male. Granted, it was traditional public school.

 

I disliked school intensely and never liked prescribed schoolwork. Even college was boring to me.

 

I've always loved learning, but traditional schoolwork never met that love. Certain subjects kept my interest but they were not covered in school.

 

I'm a self learner.

 

My son is similar. That's why we homeschool.

[RegGuheert]

I am generally opposed to being permissive of behaviors "because he is a boy" or "because he is a girl" or "because <pick any other broad category>." I believe if you verbalize such a belief to your children they will take it as an excuse to not try to improve that behavior until that condition no longer applies. Even if you do not verbalize it, your children may pick up on non-verbal cues.

 

This also does not match my personal experience or that of our children. I recall taking school seriously, even at quite a young age. DS20 took charge of his schooling at a younger age than did DD17. But in the end, they have both done very well.

[Jane in NC]

And thank you to Jane, whose thread on potential inspired this! :)

 

You are welcome.

 

My son has been an "academic" kid from the beginning. He is one of those kids who could disappear with a book for hours on end. That said, if he self directed his education completely, he would probably have had an amazing reading list, but not much in the writing department. He definitely had his reluctant writer phase.

 

As a parent, I had to work with my son to develop strategies for success when he was going through his Testosterone Laden Growth Phases. It was hard at age thirteen for him to sit for long periods of time. We added things like roller blading after lunch or raking leaves. This pent up energy and occasional aggression does not mean that a boy is mentally immature. He just has trouble maintaining focus. We found that after my son spent some of his energy, he could return to his geometry or Latin.

 

I'm not above bribes: do this, this and this and then you can go fishing for an hour.

[Jane in NC]

I am generally opposed to being permissive of behaviors "because he is a boy" or "because he is a girl" or "because <pick any other broad category>." I believe if you verbalize such a belief to your children they will take it as an excuse to not try to improve that behavior until that condition no longer applies. Even if you do not verbalize it, your children may pick up on non-verbal cues.

 

 

 

Yes, I was thinking about this recently with respect to the category of math. So many people label themselves or their children as "non-mathy" that I wonder if they defeat themselves before even attempting the subject.

[Mama Lynx]

You are welcome.

 

My son has been an "academic" kid from the beginning. He is one of those kids who could disappear with a book for hours on end. That said, if he self directed his education completely, he would probably have had an amazing reading list, but not much in the writing department. He definitely had his reluctant writer phase.

 

As a parent, I had to work with my son to develop strategies for success when he was going through his Testosterone Laden Growth Phases. It was hard at age thirteen for him to sit for long periods of time. We added things like roller blading after lunch or raking leaves. This pent up energy and occasional aggression does not mean that a boy is mentally immature. He just has trouble maintaining focus. We found that after my son spent some of his energy, he could return to his geometry or Latin.

 

I'm not above bribes: do this, this and this and then you can go fishing for an hour.

 

 

Yes. There *are* differences between the sexes in terms of maturity. And there *are* physiological reasons why boys have difficulty focusing at certain points of their lives.

 

Like Jane, we don't use those facts as excuses to be permissive. I can keep my expectations high, and yet compensate for his needs.

 

We've dealt with this by allowing the boys to more or less set their own schedules. They are responsible for focusing and getting the work done, but they can choose to do some work, and then get up and do something else, sit down and do more work, etc. As long as their work is done and done well, they have the freedom to organize their own days (always with help and input from Mom :D )

[Murphy101]

We are thick in the midst of this with my oldest 3 boys.

I agree it's not an excuse, it's a consideration in how I approach things.

I've basicly reverted to infant evaluation list when they are giving fits. ;)

Are they hungry?

Are they tired?

Are they over or under stimulated?

Do they need to be walked?

Do they need to be rocked/cuddled?

 

I will take them for a walk, just us.

And yes, prickly as they are, they still need lots of hugs and quiet time with mom. We play boardgames, watch TV together, play electronic games.

 

Our work is still getting done. It's like walking through mud sometimes, but we're making progress.

[Robin in Tx]

I've basicly reverted to infant evaluation list when they are giving fits. ;)

Are they hungry?

Are they tired?

Are they over or under stimulated?

Do they need to be walked?

Do they need to be rocked/cuddled?

 

 

 

 

Do they need to be walked! Hilarious!!! And so true... Thanks for the giggle! :D

[FloridaLisa]

When did your sons become intense about schoolwork? In jr. high? High school? Not until college? How did you negotiate schoolwork before their own interests propelled them?

 

I'll share ds1's experience, as I'm still living it with my others and their experience will likely be different, partly because of some lessons I learned with ds1.

 

Ds1 has always been bright and a book hound. He would read for hours on his own, in the car, etc. and was a sponge. On the other hand, notetaking, class organization, study skills were not intuitive (maybe because we don't test much in the early/middle grades).* As he moved into hs, he responded less and less to learning at home with me as teacher and more to outside classes (real, not virtual). He thrived in outside classes, I think, because of the stimulation and competition they brought. In early hs, he did well in online classes, but eventually really wanted the excitement of a class, hard book, teacher/professor and -- most of all -- lively class discussion.

I am generally opposed to being permissive of behaviors "because he is a boy" or "because he is a girl" or "because <pick any other broad category>." I believe if you verbalize such a belief to your children they will take it as an excuse to not try to improve that behavior until that condition no longer applies.

 

I completely agree that there should not be lower expectations or permission to do less. It's about understanding what may be physiologically happening, how to motivate and what may best serve that child and help him/her succeed.

 

Even if you do not verbalize it, your children may pick up on non-verbal cues.

I hope that I'm learning as a mom and teacher how to raise boys to men, but tucking this away to double check and make sure I'm not sending any negative non-verbal messages.

 

Lisa

 

*Dd, in contrast, had intuitive organization and study skills. When I taught a hgh school class last year at co-op, every single girl would begin taking notes when I started lecturing. I'd have to stop and say "You should be taking notes" for most boys and at least one always had to borrow a pen. :D This difference could also be because, until hs, detail-oriented ds1 could probably ace most tests without notetaking or studying while global-minded dd1 had to write things down to remember them.

[Cedarmom]

At 11 1/2 my son still needed to move a bunch. He also needed accountability. I let him chooose which subjects he wanted to work on first. BUt he had a checklist for every day, and I checked it every day. As he matured I gave him more freedom and did not check the list every day. He hated writing, so we did more discussion than writing. I made sure he had breaks during the day, and went and did something active during the breaks. He wanted to do computer games during breaks, but we found this did not work for us as it didn't help him be able to sit and concentrate later.

[Peela]

I am still waiting for ds14 to actually be remotely interested in his schoolwork.

 

Dd15almost 16 has actually taken off this year in many ways..she takes responsibility for herself and is motivated to do well.

[silliness7]

My oldest boy (and oldest child) has always been an avid reader. He's also an intuitive speller and writer. In the beginning most schoolwork was super easy and he would get bored easily. Math was a bit of a struggle, however.

 

At the beginning of this year (12 yo, 7th grade) he really turned the corner with math. He was struggling with science and I had to slow down and teach him how to take notes from the text (his first experience with that).

 

Now he is a real go-getter with all of his school work. He is a self starter and does very well. I don't know about the boy/girl dynamic but I attribute much of his personality to his birth order. My first born girl is similar in many ways. She writes more, whereas he reads more and math seems to come a bit easier for her at this point than it did for him. But they are both academically inclined, very serious and anxious to please Mom and Dad over others. And so darn antsy to grow up and be their own boss :001_smile:

[jld]

Thank you very much for the replies.

 

I think what I'm asking is when did your boys take responsibility for their education, particularly the parts they didn't want? When did they start to come to you and say things like, "I think I should be starting Latin now. Which program do you think we should go with?" Or, "Mom, you and I both know I don't really want to do math, but I know I need it. So I am going to do it first thing in the morning, from 7-9. Does that work for you?"

 

Maybe the term I'm looking for is self-discipline?

 

And even as I'm wondering about this, I'm thinking maybe I'm expecting too much. Way too much.

[Jane in NC]

Thank you very much for the replies.

 

I think what I'm asking is when did your boys take responsibility for their education, particularly the parts they didn't want? When did they start to come to you and say things like, "I think I should be starting Latin now. Which program do you think we should go with?" Or, "Mom, you and I both know I don't really want to do math, but I know I need it. So I am going to do it first thing in the morning, from 7-9. Does that work for you?"

 

Maybe the term I'm looking for is self-discipline?

 

And even as I'm wondering about this, I'm thinking maybe I'm expecting too much. Way too much.

 

I do not think you are expecting too much. One of the things that you need to remember is that education (well, life) is a dynamic process. Nan has been very good about reminding readers to these boards that an 8th grader and an 11th grader have very different minds. And it is sometimes hard to see the mature young man inside the sprouting, restless thirteen year old. Further, it is not as though our teens wake up every morning and embrace all studies equally. Some subjects feel like drudgery some days which is how I know Math has been for my son for the past two years. He knows he has to do it, but that does not mean he is going to enjoy it.

 

Regarding discussions of curricular materials: I found myself often being overwhelmed by the choices, so I would not want my son to have been in a position of selecting everything. What I often did was narrow the field to two or three things and then let him choose. That way he had some sense of ownership and responsibility in the process. With WTM reading lists, we would often discuss possibilities and again I would let him make some selections. In some cases, there are books that I just wanted him to read so they were assigned.

 

The first major curriculum decision I had him make was for French. He completed Oxford Latin I in 8th grade and was moving on to Oxford Latin II in 9th, adding French I. We went to our first and only homeschool convention in part to examine French curricular materials. We split up so that I could attend sessions on homeschooling high school, getting kids into college, etc. and he could examine French curricula. He did not care for anything he saw, told me why. So we went home, did more Internet research and selected French in Action. This was a joint decision.

 

I do think that attending the CC in 11th grade also brought some positive changes. Outsourcing may have worked in the same way but I had not done this previously (and in retrospect I wish that I had hired an online provider for writing). It was good for my young man to be handed a syllabus and then determine how to schedule his at home demands around college tests and deadlines.

 

Take heart. A switch may not be flipped so that huge changes are noticed, but many of us have been amazed and humbled by the charming, intelligent and interesting young men who have evolved from those walking bundles of hormones.

[jld]

Thank you, Jane. Sounds like I need some patience.:)

[8filltheheart]

Dh has been telling me that boys mature later than girls, and that while dd matured academically (really plunged into schoolwork) around 11 1/2, ds may not do this until 13 or 14.

 

I think dh is very smart, and generally trust his judgment. However, when I read various posts here, it seems like some young men are not very motivated academically until 15 or 16, or even 17 or 18.

 

When did your sons become intense about schoolwork? In jr. high? High school? Not until college? How did you negotiate schoolwork before their own interests propelled them?

 

I'd really like to hear your story, especially in regard to specific subjects, if possible (for example, maybe your son really took off in math in 8th grade, but didn't develop an appreciation for literary analysis until his senior year, that sort of thing), including any comments your son/s may have made on this. Thank you!

 

And thank you to Jane, whose thread on potential inspired this! :)

 

All 3 of my sons have been completely different. Extremely so.

 

My oldest was bright and very, very driven. He had goals.......a serious girlfriend and wanting to get married young. (which he managed to succeed in doing just a few weeks ago)

 

However, he argued until he was blue in the face about what was an appropriate amt of work. He thought I was absolutely WRONG in how much expected and that I was ridiculously hard. It didn't budge me at all, but it did turn me gray!! :tongue_smilie: (In his defense, it was b/c every other person he knew was doing less than 1/2 the amt of work he did. It was not a pretty sight!)

 

Anyway, I knew I was right. I made him do the work that he was fully capable of doing even if it meant my being the bad guy. It ended up all being worth it in the end when he called me his freshman yr and actually thanked me! (out of all of his friends, he is the only one that has managed to thrive w/o any struggles)

 

DS #2......he is 180 degrees opposite. He is actually my brightest child. He has almost a photographic memory and never, ever struggled to learn anything. However, he does have serious behavioral issues and was finally labeled with Aspergers when he was 17. Learning stopped, and I mean almost completely stopped, between the ages of 16 and 17. His hormonal rages literally took over his life and simply surviving them became something that I wasn't sure we would even manage to do. Unfortunately, that is a very mild interpretation. Anyway, just within the last couple of months has he started returning to some level of self-control and interest in his future. We are going to send him to the CC to do remedial level work next yr b/c he has so much catching up to do.

 

DS #3........he is very academic oriented. He loves math. He loves learning. He used to hate reading, but a couple of yrs ago he turned into a book worm and disappears with books for hrs. This yr he has grown over 6 inches in 8 months. I make him go outside for bike rides in the middle of the day when I can see "fog" in his eyes. I make him play with his baby sister (which he loves doing) when I see a certain level of frustration b/c it mellows him. He never fights or complains about work that is assigned and often loads more on himself than is necessary. He requests harder levels of work than I would pick.

 

So......there you have it......completely different realities for all three of them. (FWIW.....I think girls are a piece of cake compared to boys!! I was always told girls were hormonal as teenagers and more difficult. That has definitely not been my experience. Hormonal yes. But definitely not difficult!)

[Laurie4b]

Argh. Still in the middle of that with ds 15/almost 16. He does not like ANY school work at all, even the stuff he is good at. He enjoys physical labor and will work like a dirty dog, but loathes all things academic. He is very, very bright yet says he wants to be a blue collar worker--which is fine--if that's what he decides after college, but we're not going to let a 15 year old prune off whole future paths! Our pastor suggested that I create lots of contacts with men involved in fields that he is potentially interested in (when he's not saying he wants to be a blue collar worker, he says he wants to be an engineer and has the aptitude for that). Our pastor said he was the same way and took off in college--after failing a course--- because in high school, he had been able to "coast" on his brains without actually putting in the work. (That is ds.) In college, he tried the same thing and found he would actually have to work to achieve success! We're planning on sending this ds to a public school program next year (if he gets accepted) that would allow him to earn a significant number of college credits while getting his high school diploma. I think he needs the outside structure.

 

Ds 17 almost 18 has always been at least somewhat motivated, though he did go through the period around puberty when his brain fell out somewhere. He found it again around 13-14, probably under the bed with old baseball cards and dust bunnies. He is passionate about music and pursues that on his own. He is an excellent writer and very good at literary analysis, etc. He's done well in CC courses, with his writing skill really pulling him along. He has always had in mind a goal of getting into a particular selective college and that helped. He is also more likely to try to please adults in co-op classes, CC classes, etc.

 

11 and 13 year old are motivated by me.:glare: Ds 11 will be self-motivated when the time comes--he is very goal oriented and organized and likes to check things off his list. So as long as I put things on his list--ideally with carrots dangling at the end of the stick, he will put his shoulder to the wheel. Ds 13 has executive function deficits so that's a whole nother ball of wax. I have to not only motivate, but be his "executive function." We're working on that. But even ds 11 doesn't independently pursue learning. He's just a conscientious worker.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Laurie4b

[Laurie4b]

I've never verbalized it to my kids--- in fact it came as a complete surprise to me. But I hear this frequently and much more so from mothers of sons, so I'm guessing in the middle of the normal curve, there are a chunk of boys like this.

 

I also don't take it as an "excuse" to be permissive. It is rather a huge challenge to dh and I as homeschooling parents that I frankly was not expecting. How do you push an unmotivated student through the duldrums until he gets his own wind in his sails?

Edited May 17, 2010 by Laurie4b

[Renee in NC]

My ds started reading/learning without coercian at 11/12. He didn't take school seriously until 16 (he's never been hs.) Now, at almost 17 he is scrambling to get his GPA up (he is going to take dual enrollment summer courses.)

[Starr]

I've noticed a shift in attitude with my ds at 14. He really wants to do well and take charge of his work but still needs a lot of direction and company with some subjects.

[jld]

More thanks to everyone who has added to this thread!:)

 

I remember listening to a speaker at a homeschool conference who said that between 12 and 14, boys take more notice of the adult world, and start to want to be a part of it. They begin to realize that the only way to be accepted into the adult world is to be able to do something that adults respect, and that motivates them to get serious about learning. Does this seem true to you? My oldest boy is only 11, so I don't have personal experience to draw on yet. Thank you for considering this!

Edited May 18, 2010 by jld

[MIch elle]

A

(FWIW.....I think girls are a piece of cake compared to boys!! I was always told girls were hormonal as teenagers and more difficult. That has definitely not been my experience. Hormonal yes. But definitely not difficult!)

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

I'm the youngest of 4 girls, and I have 2 sons. I DO think girls are easier! ;)

[lllll]

..

Edited December 24, 2012 by ksva

[jld]

Thank you, ksva, and thanks to the gals who wrote in about their daughters. I have only one daughter, but she does seem easier than the boys in many ways. Even if she doesn't want to do something (not just academic, but in general), she can be convinced, especially when shown how useful it may be. But the boys just don't seem like that. They get ideas in their heads, and that's what they want to do, and that's it.