Disturbing math conversation...

[swimmermom3]

Sigh. I've seen them hovering over a rugged coastline in a storm. Maybe that is why I find them so worrisome. I associate the sound of them with somebody being missing and it makes my blood run cold.

 

And how did I know? If you go back a bit on the boards, you will get to a series of panicky posts of mine when I had gotten my older ones settled and was finally able to turn my mind to figuring out what to do with my neglected youngest. That, and I am going through a similar panicky patch over what to do for him next year right now. I have written plan after plan and keep finding major problems with each one. Ug.

 

Hugs

-Nan

 

What does your son think of your plans? This is the first year the youngest had a say in the planning process. It was a really rough year, but we ended up with plans that pleased us both and they were superior to what we were doing before. It's just that the learning curve was steep and contentious.

 

Did you ever see The Guardian with Kevin Costner? My respect for what those guys do went way up. I had no idea or had never really thought about it. BTW, my son informed me of his change in plans by telling me, "Mom, you will be relieved to know that I am no longer considering the military; search and rescue is where I belong, specifically the Coast Guard." "Gee, I wonder if they do work on the mountain too."

 

Oh yes, I am soooo relieved.:grouphug:

[dirty ethel rackham]

Is he capable of just jumping in the pool and winning a race without practice? Hey do swimmers practice?

 

Those dull 30 math problems are the brain's math practice. Just tackling the 10 challenging problems would be like just jumping the pool for a race without swim practice or warm-ups.

 

But for a kid who gets it, I would say that 30 dull math problems are like being forced to doggy paddle for weeks on end when you are ready to learn the front crawl. that kid will give up on learning to swim because they are so bored.

 

If those 10 math problems are well designed, there will be plenty of review and practice built in to them while challenging the brain.

[Nan in Mass]

It depends when I ask him. Sometimes he is more adult than others. Sometimes he is more tired than others. Sometimes he feels he should be required to do nothing but engineering/making/inventing. Sometimes he wants to read the Aeneid and learn Greek. Sometimes he wants to learn Arabic and lots of archaeology. Sometimes he feels like trying for lots of testing and scholarships. Sometimes he just wants lots of time to play strategy games. Sometimes he just wants to be handed materials he can do independently. Sometimes he thinks that is lonely and boring and hard and slow, and just wants me to teach him or to learn along with him. If he has had any recent contact with Europeans, he wants to work on his French and add German. Sometimes he feels that his French is fine where it is for his purposes and resists doing anything that might improve it. Same with his music. Sometimes he wants to spend a year in Japan and learn Japanese. Sometimes he wants to be home so he can play with his friends... He has always had a lot of say in his education and is vocal about what he thinks is useless and stupid. It changes from day to day. I am trying to hit a moving target here and I am petrified of failing him, of not supplying the right materials at the right time, of not keeping him focused (on which things?), of switch goals too often or trying to do too much so he never achieves any of his goals, of not pushing him hard enough to reach his goals, of pushing academics too hard and not leaving him room to develop himself... of not hitting the exact right balance between all these things. I wish I had years of experience teaching in a rigorous boy's school and had some way of sizing up what he is capable of, how realistic various goals are, how much hard work is doable on a daily basis". I really, really wish I knew what good materials and assignments were, how much to assign, what is a "good job" for any particular age or assignment, when to say, "This is going to be really slow at first yes it will take you five hours to do it tonight you have to do it anyway don't worry by next week it will go faster," and when to break something down into more manageable chunks, when he just needs to try that flip over and over until he gets it and when he needs to have smaller excersizes to strengthen this muscle and build that skill before he puts it together into a flip. I want so badly to give my son the education he deserves in basic academic skills plus the whatever else he is interested in, in a really efficient way so that he has plenty of time to do other things. And I can't. I am reasonably good at explaining things. I am patient. I can keep us working consistantly. I can afford resources. But that isn't enough. We are really, really inefficient, one of the things I want most not to be, and completely ineffective in some areas. I am afraid to outsource because that will suck up lots of time and my son's basic academic skills aren't really strong enough yet. I want the good efficient teaching of good outsourcing, but with the individualization of an excellent tutor. Don't we all? I'm trying to do is spare my son the inefficiencies and non-individualization and useless material of the mass-learning experience and give my son a rigorous education (I hate that over-used catchall word rigorous...). And I am beginning to think that I am not capable of doing much of it myself at all but don't know how to outsource well. He is such a weird mix of capable and incapable at this point, and that is probably my fault. Ug. My son is trying so valiently to do his part. He is relying on me so much. I don't want to fail him.

 

Sorry. I told you I was mid-panic. I have made plan after plan for next year and nothing works. I know we are trying to do too much, but you would think I would be able to manage to get part of it worked out and then be able to decide to scrap the rest... Ug. Ug. Ug.

 

Bet you are sorry you asked. Sigh.

-Nan

[LisaCA]

8/7 is kind of a refresher, we skipped it and used Algebra 1/2 with no regrets

[Susan C.]

Hi Nan,

I really enjoy your posts and your honesty. Since I have not read a large volume of your posts, I may be off target, but I'll try. It sounds like your son needs structure. Not suffocating, but let's do this much today, this much by a week, this much by a semester, and then complete this by the school year. At least shoot for it, even if you get 75% or so, there will be a sense of accomplishment. Don't be afraid to push some (but not too much). Teens can surprise you at what they can accomplish if it is expected of them. Keep communication open, let him tell you if you are expecting too much (sometimes we think those five pages are easy, but maybe there is complicated information in them that kinks their brain). Work together, but you should have the final say after you have input from him. The mix of things your son wants to learn is amazing, and he obviously loves learning, that is great. But he may need the pleasure of a sense of accomplishment of mastery a few of the interests!

[swimmermom3]

Nan,

 

The hamster is running a little too fast on her wheel here too, so I hope what follows makes sense. Your son sounds like a typical teen in the sense of not knowing from one day to the next what his interests are and what his level of motivation is. However, I suspect that with parents who think and live "outside the box" (am I assuming too much?;)) your son has even more options and interests running through his mind than the "average" teen. How exciting and overwhelming! This is in no way a bad thing; it just may take him a bit longer to figure things out-while that frontal lobe is developing.

 

I'm not surprised to hear that your son has a lot to say about his education and about what he finds to be useless and stupid. What was unclear in your post was do his dislikes change from day to day? I tend to think of dislikes as: temporary, non-negotiable, and workable. Temporary dislikes such as "Today, I hate Spanish," tend to get ignored. Dislikes such as "I can't stand writing essays" are non-negotiable in that they still have to be done but I may alter the method of instruction. Workable dislikes here would be fill-in-the-blank study guides and proselytizing in curriculum.

These are the dislikes I try to fix. Recently, they have become the starting point in my planning process. Dislikes set rough parameters: no workbooks, secular curriculum, minimal graphics in texts and so on.

 

Nan, in the middleof your post, you had a succinct, wonderfully stated educational goal: "I want so badly to give my son the education he deserves in basic academic skills plus the whatever else he is interested in, in a really efficient way so that he has plenty of time to do other things." This is your plan! After you set your basic parameters on dislikes (efficiency), pick the maybe four basic areas you must cover. Is one of those subjects something your son is passionate about? Then perhaps that is the one you pick to spend extra time on, going deeper, playing, and exploring like we were talking about earlier. The other areas you do in the most efficient way possible. Do them competently, but not perfectly. I substituted basic "subjects" for "skills," but you are still right on track. Sometimes I think we spend too much time in high school focusing on the subjects (content) and not enough time focusing on the skills (ability). Does your child write quickly and effectively? Can he organize his materials and his time to get the most use out of both? Can he discern which activities are valuable and which are time wasters? Can he predict within reason how long it will take him to complete a project? Can he distinguish between producing quality and attempting to achieve perfection? Does he know how to balance between work and play?

 

I don't think I can answer "yes' to any of those questions for my kids. I just know from shifting from undergraduate work in journalism to graduate work in business that no matter how great your knowledge level is, it's rather pointless if you are unable to act upon it effectively.

You know that while I am talking to you, I am also working this out for myself, right?

Edited June 10, 2010 by swimmermom3

[swimmermom3]

Obviously, thinking is a long, slow process here this morning and it is further hampered by poor typing skills on a new laptop which is located on the bed. This might be okay if the cold cat weren't trying to sit on me and the computer at the same time.

 

Back to efficiency. My level of inefficiency in teaching is directly proportional to my level of fear about my inadequacies as a teacher or fear about the effectiveness of the curriculum I have chosen. My fears escalate when I look at what others are doing or what their children are doing and make comparisons. Math is a perfect example. I read about this text being superior to that text, not teaching your child math unless you have a PhD, making them do every last problem, and being sure that your goal with a proficient child is higher-level theoretical thinking and I am utterly paralyzed. I want the best for my son; I don't know how to get there. Aaaagh! Any chance you can relate to this?;)

 

Nan, from everything you've said on this and other threads, and the help you have given me in the past, I believe you are capable of teaching your son and teaching him well. I didn't say teaching him perfectly. Think about what you have already accomplished. Your family strikes me as one of those rare families that don't just stand on the banks and stare at the river of life. Nor do you get only your toes wet. No, you gotta go and throw your whole bodies and souls into a swift moving river. And you all seem to enjoy it! You are connected to the physical world through sailing and traveling; you are connected in spirit and sense of community through peacewalking. The connection to the intellectual life comes from the first two and what you are doing with schooling.

 

You operate and educate and live outside of the box - possibly far outside. It's untidy and scary. Would you really climb back in that box and pull the lid down? Could you live that way? I mean really live. You have a unique way of seeing the world. There is nothing wrong with that and so much that is positive and inspiring. Maybe what you need to do right now for your son's planning is take it down to the minimum. Remove what isn't absolutely necessary academically or soulfully. Ease back on the options until you can see more clearly where you both are going. I'm not sure that it is possible to provide a Chaote-level education and live as you do. And would you really want to? Somewhere there would have to be a trade-off.

 

Come down out of the tree, Nan. :grouphug: It really will be okay.

[Storm Bay]

But for a kid who gets it, I would say that 30 dull math problems are like being forced to doggy paddle for weeks on end when you are ready to learn the front crawl. that kid will give up on learning to swim because they are so bored.

 

If those 10 math problems are well designed, there will be plenty of review and practice built in to them while challenging the brain.

 

:iagree: My dc swim, and while I think it's a good comment to a dc who needs to do 30 problems, it doesn't carry over for those who don't. Much of swim practise is for endurance once the fundamental technique is good. If you want to develop more endurance in Algebra for a dc who doesn't need a lot of practise, you could do Gelfand's Algebra where some of the problems are very long rather than something with 30 short problems of the same kind.

[Nan in Mass]

Sniff sniff. It's always harder coming down than going up. I think you just did exactly what my mother used to do when I got stuck. She pointed out the firm footholds and you just did that.

 

You are right about my family. I don't think of us as out of the box because I know some very extreme people and we are not like them, but that is another example of not being in the box GRIN. We aren't in that box. We are a mix of so many things... I definately couldn't live in the box with the lid shut. Sigh. If I weren't so worried about it, I would think it funny that boxed curriculum and thinking out of the box both contain the word box. We're more the living out of boxes sort of people. Well, canvas bags, not boxes. Sorry - inside joke. Half of me is babbling here while the other half reframes our educational goals and tries to figure out what that means in terms of French grammar, Greek plays, and textbook science.

 

I grew up with friends who have Choate-type educations. They have an ease of lifestyle and a power to change things within the system that is enviable. But you are right - there is a price. Part of that price is the risk that something vital will be lost, like basic kindness. We have already chosen not to go that direction so there is just no sense in trying to do it. Or is there? The problem is that I know what we chose to give up. I definately am not capable of giving my son the good parts of that sort of education at home, and I definately am not willing to expose him to a Choate-type atmosphere to aquire it. It is too late now, anyway. We are too far past that branch of the river. My question is whether we can outsource bits successfully. Would that skuttle the rest of the goals? Have we delayed aquiring basic academic skills too long to successfully outsource at a high level? Was it a good choice to delay? Or a bad choice? Is it like teaching a three-year-old to tie his shoes, possible but easier if you wait; or is it like ballet, hard to do unless you have had consistent training from the time you were little? I am afraid to find out the answer to that but so much of what we do next depends on it.

 

My parents made the same Choate-type choice for me (well GRIN on a lesser level - I am not Choate material), and they would have tried to talk us out of it, I am sure, if we had considered that direction for our sons. There is not enough freedom in that choice GRIN. I just wish we were able to do as well with the academic skills at home. There is a nice middle ground that I would like for my children, one where they can move between all worlds freely. I am afraid of missing that spot. My older childen aren't old enough for me to see yet whether I succeeded with them. It would be nice to know how much effort this is going to take. That spot is a funny mix of excellent thinking skills, social skills, creativity, general knowledge of the world, and common ground. Hmmm... I will have to think about that some more. I have never before defined what I was aiming for in quite that way, probably because I had absolutely no idea that my children were going to move about so much when I began this whole project!!!! I do have a written-out set of homeschooling goals. I wrote them when my older one began high school. That element of freedom is built into that document. Your post has made me realize that I still want those goals for this son, despite his engineering tendencies GRIN. What I haven't done is combine that document with the bolded part of your post. The bolded part is the for-this-son-as-he-is-right-now part of my snarl of goals, not a general goal for any child in our family. It is the part that will let me say, "Ok, you have to read Aristophanes but you can be a geeky engineer who hasn't read The Great Gatsby. I'll leave you to discover that when you are grown up." If I run the general goals through the filter of the bolded part and I should come out with something do-able. At this point, I guess a lot of it comes down to the question of how much of any one thing is enough to accomplish the goal. It seems like we must have accomplished some of those things and be able to drop them now.

 

I like your skills list. He is rather far from being able to do most of those things. Sigh. And my fears escalate when I compare, too, but comparing keeps me realistic. I just have to remember that I don't really want to be like other people, and that their goals are different. Their goals are especially different from my son's own goals. I think this is a tricky age because you are in transition. You have to let them do it themselves but not let them mess up, and that requires tons of good judgement.

 

I think I see now what I must do to get this plan finally figured out, and why I am havering so much. I hate that point where you have either to stop fishing or stop cutting bait. It should be a relief to stop trying to do all things, but it isn't, usually.

 

Ok - I'm off to compare all our academics to that original goals document, decide what is "good enough", drop what is done, and run the rest through that filter. Somehow I don't think it will be quite as easy as it sounds, but at least I have a modus operendae (and fortunately I don't need to be able to spell it to do it). Phew.

 

Thank you so very much, for pointing out those footholds, and for reminding me of the different goals and their different prices!

Hugs

Nan

 

PS - When I went to print out that goals document, I noticed that there is a sword (a real one) leaning against our printer, on which sits the recently-printed-out schedule for the latest peacewalk, and the whole thing is less than 15 feet from the water of the lake and the bird feeder full of baby sparrows. I had to laugh and come back and tell you. I will try to keep in mind how much we have going on. An embarassment of riches, my father would say. And I doubt he can spell embarrassment any better than I can.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Nan in Mass